This is very system dependent.

In games without levels, you have skills and ranks (in military/paramilitary) and those serve to help flesh out the NPCs. A high skill but low rank NPC may be a career enlisted, a guy who keeps getting into trouble and so keeps getting busted down in rank, or a prodigy who is just a natural at that skill. A low skill but high rank NPC may be a recent academy graduate with all the undeserved ego mania that comes with it, a noble's kid who should probably get paired with a salted NCO to keep them alive, or a nobody who was in the right place at the right time and got promoted for heroism.

In something like D&D 3.x/Pathfinder, yeah the NPC must be high enough level to have the correct feats in order to match the position - but the Warrior NPC class handles that to my satisfaction.

In Labyrinth Lord or Basic Fantasy, levels matching the position must also match the setting. A town watch of a small farming village in the middle of nowhere which gets raided only once a decade will have a lower quality NPC then a town watch NPC of the Caravanseri of the Shield Mountain Pass who must keep raiding packs of gnolls at bay every fortnight.

To keep PCs in check, you either have to artificially inflate the levels of the NPCs which has its own problems of breaking immersion (whaddaya mean that the innkeeper of a Nowhere Thorp is a 10th level fighter?) or you place the adventures near places where it is logical to have high level characters (the door to the Demiplane of Woe is in the basement of Citadel Tavern in Sigil and next to the simple cot of Ersatz Musashi, a level 20 Ronin Samurai who has vowed to be eternally vigilant so that none of the evil ever escapes that place).

Quote from: jeff37923;1138142To keep PCs in check

I don't really want to keep PCs in check - I love watching them break stuff! :cool:
OTOH NPCs need to be able to do their basic job, eg farmers ought normally be able to farm, city watch ought normally be able to keep order. Or there should be a good reason why that's not the case in a specific locale. High level heroes ought to be able to defeat at least a small dragon. A patrol group ought to be able to deal with a bandit gang or group of orc raiders. So I tweak a bit to get that result.

Quote from: Shasarak;1138140You could be right but that would be for another thread to discuss.

Not really. The point is that the system informs this sort of thing.

QuoteWhat level NPCs does the Viking Hat DM recommend?

Whatever gets rolled up. See for example the "Bandits" entry under "Men" in the 1e Monster Manual.

Quote from: GygaxFor every 20 bandits encountered there will be an additional 3rd level fighter, for every 30 there will be an additional 4th level fighter, for every 40 there will be an additional 5th level fighter, and for every 50 there will be an additional 6th level fighter. [etc]

Because of the plethora of feats, etc, later editions of D&D - as well as detailed systems like GURPS - require the GM to carefully set levels of challenge for encounters etc. If what an NPC or PC can do is strictly delineated by detailed rules, then there will be some foes they simply cannot deal with, and some foes for whom even rolling the dice is a time-waster - so the DM has to carefully choose things, so the PCs aren't wiped out and the players aren't bored.

When things are looser, then there's a lot more room for player creativity. I've told the story before but I think before you came along, of how a group of PCs came across sarcophagi in a dungeon, they felt sure there were mummies in there. Several of them sat on top of one to stop it opening while the MU cast hold portal on another. Using a rock drill, the MU opened two narrow holes in the lid of each sarcophagus, they then poured in oil and lit it up. And thus two mummies were slain without being able to inflict a single blow on the party.

What skills and feats apply to several PCs sitting on top of a sarcophagus lid, using a rock drill and pouring in pitch and lighting it? What level were the PCs? I can't remember - but all they used was a 1st level MU spell, so they could in fact have been 1st level. In later editions of D&D, 1st level PCs would have little or no chance against a pair of mummies.

In a looser system based more on rulings than rules, you can determine the difficulty of encounters by "well, whatever I roll up." In a tighter system based more on rules than rulings, you need to think hard about things and choose carefully.

I'll be honest: I don't actually worry much about it at all.  I generally assume a band of murder hobos can, if they chose, handily see of any random farmers and merchants and so forth they encounter, and any other 'combat' encounter is generally scaled, either in levels (or system equivalents) or numbers of combatants, to the challenge appropriate to the party and situation.  And honestly, if in session one, or twenty or whatever, if my players just randomly start trying to murder-hobo the entire city guard at random, I figure the campaign has gone off the rails and will simply end it until the problem can be fixed at the player side.

I will admit that I favor reminding players that, while there are damn few consequences for Players suddenly, randomly, murdering some NPC, from shopkeeper to king, the CHARACTER they are playing will damn well be aware of those consequences.  Murder-hobo'ing the king will probably result in a very short campaign, realistically, as very very few cultures work on the Necromonger Code of Honor...

Thus, in general: NPC levels are simply irrelevant details for the vast overwhelming majority of NPCs

Quote from: SHARK;1138137Greetings!

That's right, my friend! Have to keep the Murderhobo's in check! I always like to keep the players on their toes. They can never be sure that a City Guard Captain isn't one of the best swordsmen in the kingdom. The whole thing of the Player Characters being heroes is a fine foundation, but it isn't like the Player Characters are the *Only* heroes or champions in the area, the city, or the kingdom at large.

When some people whine, "Well, if the Players are just some of the heroes, and aren't really that special, why doesn't the Baron or the King have all these other heroes take care of problems?" I always tell them, "Well, the kingdom faces many problems, many struggles. There is usually more than enough to go around. Beyond that, why are you so worried about other heroes traveling the land, or at service to the King? You should worry about yourself living up to being a champion--if the job seems to be too tough, you can always go back to the farm!"

Of course there are other champions and heroes around. Besides that, at whatever level the Player Characters are at, I always feel like telling anyone with an attitude, "No, you aren't special. You aren't blessed. If you don't rise to the challenge, then you may face going into an early grave. Being a "Hero" is as much a journey as a destination. You need to always remember, out in the blasted wastes, in the hordes of beastmen and orcs, there is some young warrior that may just have your number! Death is always nearby, and no self-anointed title of "Hero" is protection from a harsh and savage reality."

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Exactly, "focus on your own test, kid! I wanna see your potential, not others." The reason the PCs are "heroes" is because they have the GM's undivided attention -- they are the heroes of their own story. And honestly, besides preventing players from pushing the world around as if it is nothing, it asks MORE of my players to play their PCs in a way that CAN take on the world. Basically show me you can set up a fight in your favor, show me you can drive your ethos & training home and explore how that makes you a threat to reckon with.

That simple switch -- putting a big question mark over everyone's threat potential -- suddenly changed everything from my players' PCs. Suddenly, to use WotC's 5e three-pillar explanation, all pillars 'combat, social, & explore' became spheres on which to gain the upper hand. It opened up the world from a solvable character generation math problem to a complex world where interacting with, nay shaping!, context in your favor became a continuous survival game.

It kept players on their toes with meaningful choices blossoming in emergent play. It was just so much more thrilling than playing to narrative expectations or mathematical balance. It felt... alive! (I know, I am a sappy immersionist... )

In 5e, I tend to stick with the tiers they give (1st-4th, 5th-10th, 11th-16th, and 17th-20th) as guidelines. The first group (1st-4th) covers "aspiring" heroes and exceptional but relatively unimportant NPCs. The second tier (5th-10th) are the "lesser heroes" and range from fairly uncommon (5th-7th) to rare (8th-10th). The third tier (11th-16th level) are the "greater heroes" and range from very rare (11th-13th) to exceptionally rare (14th-16th). The last category, that of "legendary heroes" (17th-20th) exist only as specific named NPCs, and never appear randomly. In use, the highest level NPC that I've detailed was 14th level.

I seldom make my NPCs according to the same rules as the characters.  Sure, I'll use bits and pieces where it helps me, but some crusty old mage the players meet may not exactly follow the rules of a wizard (or shaman or whatever).  He'll have predefined spells (usually) so that I can play him consistently, but that is to help me.  If the village blacksmith is 6 feet of corded muscle, a member of the militia, and the personality to not take any guff, then I just set his attack numbers, damage, etc to something appropriate and go.  Don't care what level he is.  

Heck, I even do the same thing in a game like Fantasy Hero sometimes.  Not the least of my beefs with D&D 3E/3.5 is that it fights you when you try do run the game that way.  Oh, you can still do it, but the game gets in the way instead of helping me.  It's even worse than FH in that regard.  With AD&D or BECMI or 5E or FH, I pretty much know how the character is going to come out if I build it correctly.  So I can skip the build part and go straight to setting the numbers approximately where they will be anyway.  If I played GURPS more, I could easily do the same thing with it.  With 3E/3.5, I played it solid for 5 years.  If anything, it got worse with exposure, not better.  That's because so many of the outcomes don't make any sense.  

D&D 4E is kind of a strange mix on that question.  There are places where it is not intuitive but it is so predictable that a moderate amount of exposure gets you to where you can easily use the short cuts.  Whether you actually want to take those short cuts or not is another thing entirely with 4E ...

Quote from: HappyDaze;1138161In 5e, I tend to stick with the tiers they give (1st-4th, 5th-10th, 11th-16th, and 17th-20th) as guidelines. The first group (1st-4th) covers "aspiring" heroes and exceptional but relatively unimportant NPCs. The second tier (5th-10th) are the "lesser heroes" and range from fairly uncommon (5th-7th) to rare (8th-10th). The third tier (11th-16th level) are the "greater heroes" and range from very rare (11th-13th) to exceptionally rare (14th-16th). The last category, that of "legendary heroes" (17th-20th) exist only as specific named NPCs, and never appear randomly. In use, the highest level NPC that I've detailed was 14th level.

The tier system, like hit dice & name level of yesteryear, is a useful demarcator of who would likely be holding domain power by force. A good usage of 5e's robust chassis to answer questions of power demographics!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4635[/ATTACH]

NPCs only need levels (or any stats for that matter) if you think the PCs will plan to engage them in some type of conflict (not necessarily combat; bargaining over goods counts) and then they only need stats to the degree that the conflict requires.

Outside of combat, this invariably comes down a skill check or target number of some type where a simple chart like Slipshot posted is all you need.

Quote from: Slipshot762;1138167[ATTACH=CONFIG]4635[/ATTACH]

If more detail is needed than that (say the blacksmith gets pulled into a fight somehow), then the NPC has whatever level is needed to give it the checks they could previously make.

Now for guards and the like, mechanically 90% of them fall into a category I refer to as grunts (you might also call them minions or mooks) that range from 10-40% of the power that a starting PC has. Another 9% are veterans who range in strength from 50-100% of the power that a starting PC has. The final 1% are elite warriors who are roughly equal in power to a level 1-5 PC (where max level for a PC is 15, level 6-10 is best in a kingdom or continent and level 11+ is once in a generation type heroes).

There's a reason communities hire PCs to go into all those ruins and clear them out of monsters instead of just sending their own soldiers. Squads of soldiers with fortifications can protect a town, but for sweeping a ruin you need a whole team of elite specialists to have a chance... and a community of 1000 might have ONE (on the theory that 10% of the population is trained to fight and the above ratios of normal to veteran to elite levels of skill hold).

Quote from: Opaopajr;1138155That simple switch -- putting a big question mark over everyone's threat potential -- suddenly changed everything from my players' PCs. Suddenly, to use WotC's 5e three-pillar explanation, all pillars 'combat, social, & explore' became spheres on which to gain the upper hand. It opened up the world from a solvable character generation math problem to a complex world where interacting with, nay shaping!, context in your favor became a continuous survival game.

It kept players on their toes with meaningful choices blossoming in emergent play. It was just so much more thrilling than playing to narrative expectations or mathematical balance. It felt... alive! (I know, I am a sappy immersionist... )

Huzzah! Very well said! Played like this the game is ALIVE  in a way that sequences of 'built' and 'balanced' encounters can never achieve.

My NPC's level are appropriate to whatever their backgrounds demand of them.

Average NPC's are normal people of normal ability. NPC's with a background doing "adventury" things have levels /skills appropriate to that experience?

I don't adjust NPC level because the PC's might be a certain level - because they have nothing to do with one another. But I think this has to do with the fact I run sandbox-style campaigns, not "Adventure Modules-as-Campaigns".

Quote from: Slipshot762;1138167[ATTACH=CONFIG]4635[/ATTACH]

I have referred to this for D6 System, but for swords & sorcery play I find it a bit conservative at the high end. So instead I mostly refer to my D6 Star Wars guide to Empire Strikes Back, which stats all the film NPCs at that era, plus Palpatine's stats in the Imperial Sourcebook (the IS mook stats also handy). Palpatine has 15D Force Sense, so I take that as the highest-high, and work down from there. Han Solo & Dath Vader have 11-12D in their top skills, most major heroes & villains top out around 8D-9D, and novice hero PCs normally cap at 6D to start with. So I use that; with crack troops around 5D, regular brigands and soldiers around 4D, and peasant militia maybe 3D.

Using that I statted up two Primeval Thule Iconics in Mini Six:

ORETHYA THE SILVER SWORD, LAST HERO OF IMYSTRAHL
Elf Female
Might 4D+2 (Blade 12D+1, Brawl 8D)
Agility 5D+1 (Dodge 10D, Stealth 7D+2, Light Bow 8D+1)
Wit 4D (Lore 9D, Magic 7D, Perception 8D Survival 6D)
Charm 5D (Command 10D+1, Courage 8D, Persuade 8D+1, Seduce 7D+2)
Perks: (1) Attractive  (1/session may double a Charm roll). Complications: Personal Code
Heroic Narrative: Inspiring Call - 1 HP gives self & allies +1D to melee attacks & courage for 1 round
Gear: +3 Silver Longsword  ATT 12D+4; dam 6D+5 1-handed, +2 Shield parry/block +6, +3 Silver Plate Cuirass soak +10, no Dodge/Stealth penalty. 3 potions of healing. 1 potion of speed (1 extra action per round at no penalty), 1 potion of invisibility. +1 Light Bow ATT 8D+2 dam 6D+2. Often has additional elven artifacts & items.
Static Defences: Dodge 30 Block 24/30 Parry 37/43 Soak 14/24
Hero Points: 6
Gear: 5000gp in gems & platinum, adventurers' pack
LAST HERO OF THE ELVES Long ago, the elven empires defeated the prehuman monstrosities that dominated the primeval continent and helped to civilize the barbaric human tribes that shared Thule with them. Now the great elven cities are in ruins, and the great warrior-heroes of elvenkind are no more . . . except, perhaps, Orethya, the Silver Sword of Imystrahl, sometimes known as the Last Hero of the Elves. Orethya has led a dozen desperate quests across the centuries, challenging the ancient enemies of elvenkind or safeguarding dangerous legacies left behind by her people. Some believe that she is deliberately erasing the history of her people, ensuring that future civilizations will not be inluenced by the arcane lore and haughty pride of their predecessors.

HYAR THOMEL, THE SAGE OF ATLANTIS
Atlantean Human Male
Might: 3D  (Blade 5D+2, Brawl 5D+2)
Wit: 5D (Lore 12D Magic 12D Perception 7D+2 Survival 7D)
Agility: 3D+1 (Dodge 7D+1)
Charm: 5D (Command 6D+2 Courage 8D Persuade 9D)
Complications: White Wizard - may not harm others with his magic. He appears to be immune to magic, in turn.
Heroic Narrative: Guardian of the Nine - Perfect Clarity - may spend (only) one Hero Point after making any Wit or Charm roll, to add +6  to that roll.
Gear: Bracers of Defence +2 unarmoured Dodge/Block/Parry, Ring of Protection +1 Dodge/Block/Parry, Robe of the Sorcerer (+2D to Fly & Teleport rolls), Crystal Ball (+3D to Clairvoyance & Divination rolls), Greater Spell Staff +1D to Magic 3 times per day, many other arcane items and devices
Static Defences: Dodge 25 Block 20 Parry 20 Soak 9
Hero Points: 6
Spells: 24
Gear: ca 75,000gp in cash resources, mostly in Katagian bank deposits.
THE SAGE OF ATLANTIS On the outskirts of Katagia stands a lonely tower, overlooking the sea. This is the home of Hyar Thomel, the legendary Sage of Atlantis. A whitebearded old man now bent with age, Hyar Thomel is the last living person who was born on the island of Atlantis. How this is possible, none can say, since he was already an old man when the sea claimed Atlantis, and that was three hundred years ago. Hyar Thomel seeks to preserve the legacy of Atlantis by sharing his scientific and cultural advances with the younger races of Thule. The Sage of Atlantis is an excellent source of information.

And just below that, a major hero type:

Caldrea of Caldrea's Tower, former student of Hyar Thomel, reverent of Azura
Human or Half-Elf Female
Might: 2D+2  
Wit: 5D (Lore 9D Magic 10D Perception 6D+1)
Agility: 3D+1 (Dodge 7D+1)
Charm: 4D (Command 6D Courage 6D Persuade 7D Seduce 6D)
Heroic Narrative: Occult Scientist. Metaphysics. can spend a Hero Point to add +6 to a Magic roll after the roll has been made. Up to 3 Hero Points may be spent on the roll, as usual. This also increases any damage inflicted by the spell by the same amount.
Gear: Cloak of the Sorcerer (+2D to Fly & Teleport rolls). Crystal Ball (+3D to Clairvoyance & Divination rolls)  Ring of Protection +1 Dodge/Block/Parry, Spell Staff +1D to Magic once each day, many arcane items and devices at her tower.
Static Defences: Dodge 23 Block 9 Parry 9 Soak 8
Hero Points: 4
Spells: 20
Spells: Beast Tongue, Charm (Conc, +4D all Charm skills), Clairvoyance, Control Weather, Dark Vision, Death Spell (rng 30', TN 35, dmg 5D vs Might roll), Dispel Magic, Divination, ESP, Fly, Heal, Invisibility (TN 27, Conc, spot TN 15/+5D Stealth), Light, Lightning Bolt (TN 23, 2 actions if fire bolt same round, Magic vs Dodge, 5D dmg, no armour), Paralysis (TN 15+target Charm roll, rng 150'), See Magic Aura, Slumber (10 targets, 30' radius, TN 10+Wit roll, 1 hr), Still Mind, Telekinesis, Teleport (TN 30,+5 per additional willing target)
Gear: typically 1,800gp in gem purse, ca 23,200 gp in cash resources at her tower.
Born of an Atlantean father and Princess of the Dhari, it is said that Caldrea ceased to study under Hyar Thomel following a falling out over the wisdom of using destructive magics in the service of Light. From her tower beyond Quodeth she watches over the reptile-men of fallen Vhaug and the smoking spires of the Zinandar mountains, alert to any rising evil. She is friendly with Khavas Rho and the Sword Sisters, though their areas of concern differ. Caldrea often travels, seeking new knowledge, new treasures and new magics. Outside her tower she is normally accompanied by loyal bodyguards, including 2 (away from home) to 4 (near tower) Bronze Warriors, and the great Winged Ape Gaugh.

Quote from: SHARK;1138137Greetings!

That's right, my friend! Have to keep the Murderhobo's in check! I always like to keep the players on their toes. They can never be sure that a City Guard Captain isn't one of the best swordsmen in the kingdom. The whole thing of the Player Characters being heroes is a fine foundation, but it isn't like the Player Characters are the *Only* heroes or champions in the area, the city, or the kingdom at large.

When some people whine, "Well, if the Players are just some of the heroes, and aren't really that special, why doesn't the Baron or the King have all these other heroes take care of problems?" I always tell them, "Well, the kingdom faces many problems, many struggles. There is usually more than enough to go around. Beyond that, why are you so worried about other heroes traveling the land, or at service to the King? You should worry about yourself living up to being a champion--if the job seems to be too tough, you can always go back to the farm!"

Of course there are other champions and heroes around. Besides that, at whatever level the Player Characters are at, I always feel like telling anyone with an attitude, "No, you aren't special. You aren't blessed. If you don't rise to the challenge, then you may face going into an early grave. Being a "Hero" is as much a journey as a destination. You need to always remember, out in the blasted wastes, in the hordes of beastmen and orcs, there is some young warrior that may just have your number! Death is always nearby, and no self-anointed title of "Hero" is protection from a harsh and savage reality."

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The problem with this whimpering notion that "But the PCs are HEROES! Waaahhh!!!" is that, even if that was 100% true (it isn't), you don't need to make the ENTIRE population of the planet a pathetic mass of barely functional incompetent weaklings liable to die from a freaking bug bite just so that your fresh out of the gate, newly minted "hero" who's never even had a real adventure or done anything truly heroic yet in their lives can feel "special" by comparison. It also fails to take the scale of the world into account and the vast, gigantic differences between a 1 HD creature and a 10 or even 5 HD being, which is liable to devastate a score of 1 HD creatures on their own, much less a 20 HD character, which is as high as a PC can eventually hope to get.

In a world where giants, dragons and magical creatures exist, and monsters are rampant across the land, a human population made up almost entirely of pathetic 1 HD unskilled laborers who somehow maintain civilization despite having no skills of note cannot possibly hope to survive. I don't buy it for an instant. There's no way such a population can thrive if almost everyone you meet is an incompetent idiot incapable of performing high skill tasks or withstanding a giant rat attack. How has the local tribe of ogres not moved in yet and wiped the entire town out of existence? How has that not happened yet in every settlement in the world and driven humanity into extinction?

And do these people even understand the concept of the heroes journey or "leveling" up? "Heroes" in stories don't always have skills or power beyond those of the general population. Often they start out weak, barely at the same level as the average peasant, but they have courage and ambition, and the will to face challenges others wouldn't dare. And through luck and determination they manage to overcome the obstacles others thought insurmountable, and come out stronger in the end. It is that way that they ultimately become "heroes".

But if your character already is a "hero" before you've even played it, then what motive is there for growth? If your character is already exalted by virtue of being a "PC" then what do you have to prove? Creating a player character and keeping the population artificially weak is not what makes a character a hero. Rising above the challenges and becoming stronger through adversity does. Even if the average adult human is roughly level 3 your character will be able to far outstrip them eventually, cuz none of them can hope to ever be level 20. But you could.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1138134I never run zero lvl NPCs. Makes the "lvl shell game" interesting as the PCs should respect whoever they are addressing, as you never know whether you can take them on. This helps keep down scenery-chewing murderhobo antics down to a minimum in my campaigns.

I have been so fond of the results I see no benefit in changing for lvl-based games.

Would you want to have a 20th level commoner?