Quote from: SHARK;1138033Take Fighters, for example. I know that many people *love* low-level, non-magical, gritty games, with everyone being a level 1 farmer. Looking at the feats, I was like, damn, what professional soldier doesn't know how to Shield Bash, and Dodge, and on and on. Before I knew it, I made most basic professional soldiers level 3, 4, 5, and 6, as a sort of base line. Anything below level 3 and such a character was nothing more than a raw recruit. That process was heavily influenced by the very institution of clusters of feats, which all pushed for them being essential for whatever character being genuinely effective and proper in their job.
SHARK posed an interesting question regarding what he considered to be a competent professional Soldier. He calculated that most Soldiers have to be at least 3rd level.
What about you, what level are most NPCs in your worlds? Mostly level 0, a few 1st level with only rare higher level characters or do they level up with your characters or something else?
Mostly 0 level. That counts aged soldiers who lost their edge.
Even kings and such who have lost their edge and had their adventuring days behind them don't really out-class the party too much. Because I really want the PCs to the the stars of the show.
I tend to make level 3 the "standard" level in most my campaigns. and most professionals, regardless of occupation (guards, merchants, lawmakers, whatever), tend to be around 3 HD. No level 0 or 1 HD peasants in my worlds (unless they're children). Levels 1-2 are just considered "training" levels, like "level 0" rules in old D&D. And only level 3+ characters are considered full blown adventurers.
My reasoning wasn't based around feats, however (this started back in 2e), but rather that I always considered 1 HD to be way too low for HP, and higher level characters orders of magnitude more powerful than 1 HD guards, to the point that you don't really need to reach "epic" level 20+ to be godlike. You pretty much can bulldoze through a small town like you were a demigod by level 10 or so already--at least, assuming that your average adult human is only 1 HD. That math changes pretty quickly the moment every grunt is level 3, every captain or ranking soldier is level 5-6 minimum, and even merchants are like a level 3 rogue or similar.
Quote from: VisionStorm;1138110I tend to make level 3 the "standard" level in most my campaigns. and most professionals, regardless of occupation (guards, merchants, lawmakers, whatever), tend to be around 3 HD. No level 0 or 1 HD peasants in my worlds (unless they're children). Levels 1-2 are just considered "training" levels, like "level 0" rules in old D&D. And only level 3+ characters are considered full blown adventurers.
My reasoning wasn't based around feats, however (this started back in 2e), but rather that I always considered 1 HD to be way too low for HP, and higher level characters orders of magnitude more powerful than 1 HD guards, to the point that you don't really need to reach "epic" level 20+ to be godlike. You pretty much can bulldoze through a small town like you were a demigod by level 10 or so already--at least, assuming that your average adult human is only 1 HD. That math changes pretty quickly the moment every grunt is level 3, every captain or ranking soldier is level 5-6 minimum, and even merchants are like a level 3 rogue or similar.
Greetings!
Yes, I agree, my friend! In my campaigns, most professional adults of whatever profession are at least three or four hit dice. I make probably most of mine level 4, and above. Groups of level 10 adventurers are definitely NOT going to be bulldozing entire towns! *Laughing* I also like the idea that NPC's have more going on for them. Level 1 or 2, even as a civilian-like merchant or shepherd just seems entirely pathetic.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Shasarak;1138104SHARK posed an interesting question regarding what he considered to be a competent professional Soldier. He calculated that most Soldiers have to be at least 3rd level.
What about you, what level are most NPCs in your worlds? Mostly level 0, a few 1st level with only rare higher level characters or do they level up with your characters or something else?
Most of the people you run into are without an adventuring career, and thus 0 level. But my campaigns tend to lack mooks and palookas, so even a 0-level farmer might hurt or kill you. And the bartender with three levels of fighting experience isn't wearing a sign. Anyone who is currently under arms is wildly unlikely to be 0 level and some might be high-level. Level and military rank have little or nothing to do with one another. Nobles are almost always trained as Elite Warriors (this isn't D&D) which means that, at one time, they were the equal of a third-level fighter and they have better equipment. If they have kept it up, been to war, been suppressing bandits and hobgoblins and the like, they will be even better. If they have been resting on their laurels, they aren't much of a threat. If a wealthy Mage has hired bodyguards they will be top-notch.
Of course, level in my games has nothing to do with Hit Points. Big, healthy people have more but HP won't save you with the damages things do.
I notice the orcs are 1 hit dice creatures in the Monster Manual, most human sized creatures are 1 hit dice.
For me the baseline npc is level 0. The greatest wizard in the land is level 7 (put of 10, might be higher if playing a 1-20 or 1-36 level game) and the king and his knights are a veteran fighters at level 5 or 6. The PCs are currently level 4 and are something like an elite adventuring team theyre at the level they can solve most problems in the main kingdom, but its a relatively civilized zone so they're gearing up to go into unexplored territory where some stronger stuff is. So besides the outlier wizard, the strongest people in familiar/ civilized lands are about half way up the level advancement tree. Cause by the time they get to 7th level i want them to be doing things no one else could be tasked to do so they're the ones doing the moving and shaking.
Quote from: Slambo;1138119For me the baseline npc is level 0. The greatest wizard in the land is level 7 (put of 10, might be higher if playing a 1-20 or 1-36 level game) and the king and his knights are a veteran fighters at level 5 or 6. The PCs are currently level 4 and are something like an elite adventuring team theyre at the level they can solve most problems in the main kingdom, but its a relatively civilized zone so they're gearing up to go into unexplored territory where some stronger stuff is. So besides the outlier wizard, the strongest people in familiar/ civilized lands are about half way up the level advancement tree. Cause by the time they get to 7th level i want them to be doing things no one else could be tasked to do so they're the ones doing the moving and shaking.
Well 3.5 doesn't have a level 0, it has NPC classes instead which include warriors, commoners, aristocrats, and experts and they all start at level 1. I don't have much use for a 20th level commoner though.
I tend to have a spread of NPC levels when any are classed. AD&D was my go-to for that as it listed various NPCs that could be encountered in a city.
Quick example is the City Guard.
2d8 0 level mercs.
1 leader of level 1d4+2. 2 leaders if there are more than 8 mercs, 3 if more than 12.
1 magic user level 1d4
City Watch
5 men plus a sergant of level 1-3 in the day. 10 men and 2 sergants at night and one lieutanant level 4-5. And a cleric level 1d4+1
Another is a cleric level 1d6+5. and 1d6-1 acolytes level 1d4.
or a Fighter level 2d4+4 and some level 1d4 henchmen.
And so on.
Quote from: Shasarak;1138104SHARK posed an interesting question regarding what he considered to be a competent professional Soldier. He calculated that most Soldiers have to be at least 3rd level.
What about you, what level are most NPCs in your worlds? Mostly level 0, a few 1st level with only rare higher level characters or do they level up with your characters or something else?
I like the idea of only player characters having levels, but then any non-monster NPC opponents would be less than a speed bump.
In practice, I tailor the levels of the opponents to the average party character level. Doesn't mean they can't encounter a high level opponent, but high level to a party of 1st level characters isn't the same as a high level opponent to a party of 9th level characters, etc.
I never run zero lvl NPCs. :) Makes the "lvl shell game" interesting as the PCs should respect whoever they are addressing, as you never know whether you can take them on. This helps keep down scenery-chewing murderhobo antics down to a minimum in my campaigns.
I have been so fond of the results I see no benefit in changing for lvl-based games. :D
Quote from: Opaopajr;1138134I never run zero lvl NPCs. :) Makes the "lvl shell game" interesting as the PCs should respect whoever they are addressing, as you never know whether you can take them on. This helps keep down scenery-chewing murderhobo antics down to a minimum in my campaigns.
I have been so fond of the results I see no benefit in changing for lvl-based games. :D
Greetings!
That's right, my friend! Have to keep the Murderhobo's in check! I always like to keep the players on their toes. They can never be sure that a City Guard Captain isn't one of the best swordsmen in the kingdom. The whole thing of the Player Characters being heroes is a fine foundation, but it isn't like the Player Characters are the *Only* heroes or champions in the area, the city, or the kingdom at large.
When some people whine, "Well, if the Players are just some of the heroes, and aren't really that special, why doesn't the Baron or the King have all these other heroes take care of problems?" I always tell them, "Well, the kingdom faces many problems, many struggles. There is usually more than enough to go around. Beyond that, why are you so worried about other heroes traveling the land, or at service to the King? You should worry about yourself living up to being a champion--if the job seems to be too tough, you can always go back to the farm!"
Of course there are other champions and heroes around. Besides that, at whatever level the Player Characters are at, I always feel like telling anyone with an attitude, "No, you aren't special. You aren't blessed. If you don't rise to the challenge, then you may face going into an early grave. Being a "Hero" is as much a journey as a destination. You need to always remember, out in the blasted wastes, in the hordes of beastmen and orcs, there is some young warrior that may just have your number! Death is always nearby, and no self-anointed title of "Hero" is protection from a harsh and savage reality."
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Shasarak;1138104What about you, what level are most NPCs in your worlds? Mostly level 0, a few 1st level with only rare higher level characters or do they level up with your characters or something else?
In D6 system where 2D is the 'everyman' or average, my baseline NPCs typically have attribute 3D in their area of competence and skills of 4D. So a basic recruit soldier has Might 3D, weapon skill 4D, everything else 2D. Crack troops and experts have 5D. A starting PC can have attribute of 4D and skills at 6D; that's novice hero level. Boba Fett types have skills at 8D-9D, Darth Vader types 10D-12D, and I cap at 15D.
In 5e D&D, NPCs don't normally have levels. I use the 11 hp MM Guard for raw recruits and peasant militia; my veteran warriors such as the Skandik vikings typically have 22 hp; crack troops like Quodethi Marines have 32 hp (& 2 attacks), elites like the Thule Legionary and MM Veteran have 52-58 hp. I tend to use the MM baseline spellcasters who cast at around 4th level and have ca 18-22 hp as typical Druids, Bards etc. Legendary characters are 17th-20th; I use the full 5e 1-20 level spread.
Running 1e AD&D/OSRIC again PBP set in Damara, I've enjoyed working on the demographics. I've halved Forgotten Realms NPC levels from book levels, this seems to fit better with the system's baseline assumptions (other than level listings for Men in MM, which I also halve - levels for Demihuman leaders are fine). Most NPCs are 0th level.
I give all classed characters maximum hp at 1st level and high-average above that, so Fighter 1 hp 10, Fighter 2 hp 16, Fighter 3 hp 22, etc.
Man at arms or Squire: level 0, 4-7 hp.
Sergeant or Knight (heavy cavalry): Fighter 1
Senior Sergeant, Junior Lieutenant, Knight Serjeant: Fighter 2
Master Sergeant, Senior Lieutenant, Knight Lieutenant: Fighter 3-4
Captain, Steward, Castellan: Fighter 5+
For spellcasters and various others, younger and less competent characters are level 1-2, most experienced characters are level 3-4, level 5-6 are rare elites, 7+ is heroic level, these are renowned characters likely known nationwide. Level 10+ is legendary, these are the kind of characters who've fought Lolth or Tiamat or Orcus and survived. Elminster is 13th level (halved from 1e FRCS listed 26th); The Simbul is 14th level. So I'm effectively using about a 1-15 level spread, but very heavily weighted to 1-10.
From my blog campaign page, available to players, llistings for Damara (about 0.75 million people IMC):
Movers & Shakers of the Bloodstone Lands
Few other NPCs in the Bloodstone Lands are above 6th level - there are a few at 7th or 8th level, but probably none of 9th level or higher at this time.
Cleric & Druid
Friar Dugald of St Dionysus, Bishop of Goliad, Hero of Bloodstone, Clr-11
Banak of the Citadel of Assassins, High Priest of Loviatar, Clr-10
The High Druid of Leth, Drd-10
Christine Dragonsbane, the Lady of Bloodstone, Drd-7
Jaroo Ashstaff, the Druid of the Grove, Drd-7
Bishop Gilpin, Bishop of Valls, Clr-6
Abbess Mara Aloitius, Sister Superior of St Cecilia, Half-Elf Clr-5
Prior Mordrin of Moravin Friary, Ftr-4/Clr-5
Magic-User & Illusionist
Emelyn the Gray, Hero of Bloodstone, leader of the Twilight Riders. MU (Inv. ?) 11
Knellict of the Citadel of Assassins, MU-11
Celedon Kierney, Hero of Bloodstone, Half-Elf. MU-8/Thf-11
Sylvia of Praka, Baroness of Ostel. MU-8
Myrddin Viligoth, Twilight Rider. MU-7
Lady Rebecca of Ramvira Manor, M-U (Trans.) 5
Gabrielle of Bloodstone, Apprentice to Emelyn the Gray, M-U 5
Bistro Battenrooj, gnome adventurer of Impiltur, Ftr-4/Ill-4
Monk
Kane, Hero of Bloodstone, Grandmaster Emiritus of the Yellow Rose. Monk-11
Cantoule, Grand Master of Flowers, Monk-9
Temmenische, Master of Spring, Monk-8
Afrafa, Master of Dragons, Monk-6
Thief & Assassin
Tarkos Ree, Heliogabolus Guildmaster of Thieves. Thief-12
Cat 'One-Eye', "The Slave of Banak", Tiefling Assassin-11
Riordan Parnell, Hero of Bloodstone. Half-Elf Ftr-8/Thief-9
Dimian I Ree Banacath, King of Damara, Prince-Baron of Morov, Thief-8
Horse of Narfell, Ftr-4/Thief-6
Bahooha Shortsleeves, halfling adventurer of Impiltur, Ftr-3/Thf-4
Fighter
Adorabe, Nar veteran tribal leader, Ftr-15 (in the book he's 30th level!)
Timoshenko, Lord of the Citadel of Assassins, Ftr-10
Hedweck of White Worm Tribe, Vaasa, Ftr-9
Hernic of Zarach, Knight Commander of Ostel, half-elf Ftr-8
Garumbelly Hillsafar, Dwarf Clan Chief of Hillsafar (Vaasa), Ftr-7
Tranth, Lord-Steward of Bloodstone, Ftr-7
Dormythr, the Steward of Brandiar, Ftr-5
Hobart Bracegirdle, commander of the Kneebreakers, Halfling Ftr-5
Mykros, Commander of the Arcatan Ducal Guard, Ftr-5
Paladin
Gareth Dragonsbane, Duke of Vaasa, Baron of Bloodstone, Hero of Bloodstone, Pal-11
Kyrlraun of Impiltur, Leader of the Lords of Imphras II, Pal-10
Ranger
Olwen Forest Friend, Duke of Soravia, Hero of Bloodstone. Rgr-11
Marco Wildfeet, Ranger of Soravia. Rgr-8
Mariabronne the Rover, Vaasan Gate. Rgr-6
Other
Quillan the Wise, Sage of Bloodstone Village. hd 8d4, F/S as MU.
Hardby the Drunkard, Sage of Praka. hd 8d4, F/S as MU.
Queen Sambryl, the Queen-Regent of Impiltur. hd 4d4, F/S as MU.
All PCs start at 1st level. The current group after about 12 months of active PBP are Fighter-4, MU (Transmuter)-4, Cleric-4 and Ranger-2 (the newbie). :) At 4th level they're at the top end of 'regular character' type level, from 5th they'll be into the Exceptional category, 7th renowned, 10th legendary.
Quote from: Shasarak;1138104SHARK posed an interesting question regarding what he considered to be a competent professional Soldier. He calculated that most Soldiers have to be at least 3rd level.
Shark has simply encountered the problem of systems with feats, etc associated with levels, which is that if you have more than 3-5 levels, you end up having to take ordinary everyday activities which essentially everyone can do with a relatively small amount of training and make them into "feats", and so essentially every NPC is going to be above 1st level, and everyone's character sheet is cluttered with dozens of things they hardly every do, obscuring the 2-3 things they do almost all the time.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1138139Shark has simply encountered the problem of systems with feats, etc associated with levels, which is that if you have more than 3-5 levels, you end up having to take ordinary everyday activities which essentially everyone can do with a relatively small amount of training and make them into "feats", and so essentially every NPC is going to be above 1st level, and everyone's character sheet is cluttered with dozens of things they hardly every do, obscuring the 2-3 things they do almost all the time.
You could be right but that would be for another thread to discuss.
What level NPCs does the Viking Hat DM recommend?
This is very system dependent.
In games without levels, you have skills and ranks (in military/paramilitary) and those serve to help flesh out the NPCs. A high skill but low rank NPC may be a career enlisted, a guy who keeps getting into trouble and so keeps getting busted down in rank, or a prodigy who is just a natural at that skill. A low skill but high rank NPC may be a recent academy graduate with all the undeserved ego mania that comes with it, a noble's kid who should probably get paired with a salted NCO to keep them alive, or a nobody who was in the right place at the right time and got promoted for heroism.
In something like D&D 3.x/Pathfinder, yeah the NPC must be high enough level to have the correct feats in order to match the position - but the Warrior NPC class handles that to my satisfaction.
In Labyrinth Lord or Basic Fantasy, levels matching the position must also match the setting. A town watch of a small farming village in the middle of nowhere which gets raided only once a decade will have a lower quality NPC then a town watch NPC of the Caravanseri of the Shield Mountain Pass who must keep raiding packs of gnolls at bay every fortnight.
To keep PCs in check, you either have to artificially inflate the levels of the NPCs which has its own problems of breaking immersion (whaddaya mean that the innkeeper of a Nowhere Thorp is a 10th level fighter?) or you place the adventures near places where it is logical to have high level characters (the door to the Demiplane of Woe is in the basement of Citadel Tavern in Sigil and next to the simple cot of Ersatz Musashi, a level 20 Ronin Samurai who has vowed to be eternally vigilant so that none of the evil ever escapes that place).
Quote from: jeff37923;1138142To keep PCs in check
I don't really want to keep PCs in check - I love watching them break stuff! :cool:
OTOH NPCs need to be able to do their basic job, eg farmers ought normally be able to farm, city watch ought normally be able to keep order. Or there should be a good reason why that's not the case in a specific locale. High level heroes ought to be able to defeat at least a small dragon. A patrol group ought to be able to deal with a bandit gang or group of orc raiders. So I tweak a bit to get that result.
Quote from: Shasarak;1138140You could be right but that would be for another thread to discuss.
Not really. The point is that the system informs this sort of thing.
QuoteWhat level NPCs does the Viking Hat DM recommend?
Whatever gets rolled up. See for example the "Bandits" entry under "Men" in the 1e
Monster Manual.
Quote from: GygaxFor every 20 bandits encountered there will be an additional 3rd level fighter, for every 30 there will be an additional 4th level fighter, for every 40 there will be an additional 5th level fighter, and for every 50 there will be an additional 6th level fighter. [etc]
Because of the plethora of feats, etc, later editions of D&D - as well as detailed systems like GURPS - require the GM to carefully set levels of challenge for encounters etc. If what an NPC or PC can do is strictly delineated by detailed rules, then there will be some foes they simply cannot deal with, and some foes for whom even rolling the dice is a time-waster - so the DM has to carefully choose things, so the PCs aren't wiped out and the players aren't bored.
When things are looser, then there's a lot more room for player creativity. I've told the story before but I think before you came along, of how a group of PCs came across sarcophagi in a dungeon, they felt sure there were mummies in there. Several of them sat on top of one to stop it opening while the MU cast
hold portal on another. Using a rock drill, the MU opened two narrow holes in the lid of each sarcophagus, they then poured in oil and lit it up. And thus two mummies were slain without being able to inflict a single blow on the party.
What skills and feats apply to several PCs sitting on top of a sarcophagus lid, using a rock drill and pouring in pitch and lighting it? What level were the PCs? I can't remember - but all they used was a 1st level MU spell, so they could in fact have been 1st level. In later editions of D&D, 1st level PCs would have little or no chance against a pair of mummies.
In a looser system based more on rulings than rules, you can determine the difficulty of encounters by "well, whatever I roll up." In a tighter system based more on rules than rulings, you need to think hard about things and choose carefully.
I'll be honest: I don't actually worry much about it at all. I generally assume a band of murder hobos can, if they chose, handily see of any random farmers and merchants and so forth they encounter, and any other 'combat' encounter is generally scaled, either in levels (or system equivalents) or numbers of combatants, to the challenge appropriate to the party and situation. And honestly, if in session one, or twenty or whatever, if my players just randomly start trying to murder-hobo the entire city guard at random, I figure the campaign has gone off the rails and will simply end it until the problem can be fixed at the player side.
I will admit that I favor reminding players that, while there are damn few consequences for Players suddenly, randomly, murdering some NPC, from shopkeeper to king, the CHARACTER they are playing will damn well be aware of those consequences. Murder-hobo'ing the king will probably result in a very short campaign, realistically, as very very few cultures work on the Necromonger Code of Honor...
Thus, in general: NPC levels are simply irrelevant details for the vast overwhelming majority of NPCs
Quote from: SHARK;1138137Greetings!
That's right, my friend! Have to keep the Murderhobo's in check! I always like to keep the players on their toes. They can never be sure that a City Guard Captain isn't one of the best swordsmen in the kingdom. The whole thing of the Player Characters being heroes is a fine foundation, but it isn't like the Player Characters are the *Only* heroes or champions in the area, the city, or the kingdom at large.
When some people whine, "Well, if the Players are just some of the heroes, and aren't really that special, why doesn't the Baron or the King have all these other heroes take care of problems?" I always tell them, "Well, the kingdom faces many problems, many struggles. There is usually more than enough to go around. Beyond that, why are you so worried about other heroes traveling the land, or at service to the King? You should worry about yourself living up to being a champion--if the job seems to be too tough, you can always go back to the farm!"
Of course there are other champions and heroes around. Besides that, at whatever level the Player Characters are at, I always feel like telling anyone with an attitude, "No, you aren't special. You aren't blessed. If you don't rise to the challenge, then you may face going into an early grave. Being a "Hero" is as much a journey as a destination. You need to always remember, out in the blasted wastes, in the hordes of beastmen and orcs, there is some young warrior that may just have your number! Death is always nearby, and no self-anointed title of "Hero" is protection from a harsh and savage reality."
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Exactly, "focus on your own test, kid! I wanna see your potential, not others." The reason the PCs are "heroes" is because they have the GM's undivided attention -- they are the heroes of their own story. And honestly, besides preventing players from pushing the world around as if it is nothing, it asks MORE of my players to play their PCs in a way that CAN take on the world. Basically show me you can set up a fight in your favor, show me you can drive your ethos & training home and explore how that makes you a threat to reckon with.
That simple switch -- putting a big question mark over everyone's threat potential -- suddenly changed everything from my players' PCs. Suddenly, to use WotC's 5e three-pillar explanation, all pillars 'combat, social, & explore' became spheres on which to gain the upper hand. It opened up the world from a solvable character generation math problem to a complex world where interacting with, nay shaping!, context in your favor became a continuous survival game.
It kept players on their toes with meaningful choices blossoming in emergent play. :) It was just so much more thrilling than playing to narrative expectations or mathematical balance. It felt... alive! :D (I know, I am a sappy immersionist... :o)
In 5e, I tend to stick with the tiers they give (1st-4th, 5th-10th, 11th-16th, and 17th-20th) as guidelines. The first group (1st-4th) covers "aspiring" heroes and exceptional but relatively unimportant NPCs. The second tier (5th-10th) are the "lesser heroes" and range from fairly uncommon (5th-7th) to rare (8th-10th). The third tier (11th-16th level) are the "greater heroes" and range from very rare (11th-13th) to exceptionally rare (14th-16th). The last category, that of "legendary heroes" (17th-20th) exist only as specific named NPCs, and never appear randomly. In use, the highest level NPC that I've detailed was 14th level.
I seldom make my NPCs according to the same rules as the characters. Sure, I'll use bits and pieces where it helps me, but some crusty old mage the players meet may not exactly follow the rules of a wizard (or shaman or whatever). He'll have predefined spells (usually) so that I can play him consistently, but that is to help me. If the village blacksmith is 6 feet of corded muscle, a member of the militia, and the personality to not take any guff, then I just set his attack numbers, damage, etc to something appropriate and go. Don't care what level he is.
Heck, I even do the same thing in a game like Fantasy Hero sometimes. Not the least of my beefs with D&D 3E/3.5 is that it fights you when you try do run the game that way. Oh, you can still do it, but the game gets in the way instead of helping me. It's even worse than FH in that regard. With AD&D or BECMI or 5E or FH, I pretty much know how the character is going to come out if I build it correctly. So I can skip the build part and go straight to setting the numbers approximately where they will be anyway. If I played GURPS more, I could easily do the same thing with it. With 3E/3.5, I played it solid for 5 years. If anything, it got worse with exposure, not better. That's because so many of the outcomes don't make any sense.
D&D 4E is kind of a strange mix on that question. There are places where it is not intuitive but it is so predictable that a moderate amount of exposure gets you to where you can easily use the short cuts. Whether you actually want to take those short cuts or not is another thing entirely with 4E ...
Quote from: HappyDaze;1138161In 5e, I tend to stick with the tiers they give (1st-4th, 5th-10th, 11th-16th, and 17th-20th) as guidelines. The first group (1st-4th) covers "aspiring" heroes and exceptional but relatively unimportant NPCs. The second tier (5th-10th) are the "lesser heroes" and range from fairly uncommon (5th-7th) to rare (8th-10th). The third tier (11th-16th level) are the "greater heroes" and range from very rare (11th-13th) to exceptionally rare (14th-16th). The last category, that of "legendary heroes" (17th-20th) exist only as specific named NPCs, and never appear randomly. In use, the highest level NPC that I've detailed was 14th level.
The tier system, like hit dice & name level of yesteryear, is a useful demarcator of who would likely be holding domain power by force. A good usage of 5e's robust chassis to answer questions of power demographics! :)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4635[/ATTACH]
NPCs only need levels (or any stats for that matter) if you think the PCs will plan to engage them in some type of conflict (not necessarily combat; bargaining over goods counts) and then they only need stats to the degree that the conflict requires.
Outside of combat, this invariably comes down a skill check or target number of some type where a simple chart like Slipshot posted is all you need.
Quote from: Slipshot762;1138167[ATTACH=CONFIG]4635[/ATTACH]
If more detail is needed than that (say the blacksmith gets pulled into a fight somehow), then the NPC has whatever level is needed to give it the checks they could previously make.
Now for guards and the like, mechanically 90% of them fall into a category I refer to as grunts (you might also call them minions or mooks) that range from 10-40% of the power that a starting PC has. Another 9% are veterans who range in strength from 50-100% of the power that a starting PC has. The final 1% are elite warriors who are roughly equal in power to a level 1-5 PC (where max level for a PC is 15, level 6-10 is best in a kingdom or continent and level 11+ is once in a generation type heroes).
There's a reason communities hire PCs to go into all those ruins and clear them out of monsters instead of just sending their own soldiers. Squads of soldiers with fortifications can protect a town, but for sweeping a ruin you need a whole team of elite specialists to have a chance... and a community of 1000 might have ONE (on the theory that 10% of the population is trained to fight and the above ratios of normal to veteran to elite levels of skill hold).
Quote from: Opaopajr;1138155That simple switch -- putting a big question mark over everyone's threat potential -- suddenly changed everything from my players' PCs. Suddenly, to use WotC's 5e three-pillar explanation, all pillars 'combat, social, & explore' became spheres on which to gain the upper hand. It opened up the world from a solvable character generation math problem to a complex world where interacting with, nay shaping!, context in your favor became a continuous survival game.
It kept players on their toes with meaningful choices blossoming in emergent play. :) It was just so much more thrilling than playing to narrative expectations or mathematical balance. It felt... alive! :D (I know, I am a sappy immersionist... :o)
Huzzah! Very well said! Played like this the game is
ALIVE in a way that sequences of 'built' and 'balanced' encounters can never achieve.
My NPC's level are appropriate to whatever their backgrounds demand of them.
Average NPC's are normal people of normal ability. NPC's with a background doing "adventury" things have levels /skills appropriate to that experience?
I don't adjust NPC level because the PC's might be a certain level - because they have nothing to do with one another. But I think this has to do with the fact I run sandbox-style campaigns, not "Adventure Modules-as-Campaigns".
Quote from: Slipshot762;1138167[ATTACH=CONFIG]4635[/ATTACH]
I have referred to this for D6 System, but for swords & sorcery play I find it a bit conservative at the high end. So instead I mostly refer to my D6 Star Wars guide to Empire Strikes Back, which stats all the film NPCs at that era, plus Palpatine's stats in the Imperial Sourcebook (the IS mook stats also handy). Palpatine has 15D Force Sense, so I take that as the highest-high, and work down from there. Han Solo & Dath Vader have 11-12D in their top skills, most major heroes & villains top out around 8D-9D, and novice hero PCs normally cap at 6D to start with. So I use that; with crack troops around 5D, regular brigands and soldiers around 4D, and peasant militia maybe 3D.
Using that I statted up two Primeval Thule Iconics in Mini Six:
ORETHYA THE SILVER SWORD, LAST HERO OF IMYSTRAHL
Elf Female
Might 4D+2 (Blade 12D+1, Brawl 8D)
Agility 5D+1 (Dodge 10D, Stealth 7D+2, Light Bow 8D+1)
Wit 4D (Lore 9D, Magic 7D, Perception 8D Survival 6D)
Charm 5D (Command 10D+1, Courage 8D, Persuade 8D+1, Seduce 7D+2)
Perks: (1) Attractive (1/session may double a Charm roll). Complications: Personal Code
Heroic Narrative: Inspiring Call - 1 HP gives self & allies +1D to melee attacks & courage for 1 round
Gear: +3 Silver Longsword ATT 12D+4; dam 6D+5 1-handed, +2 Shield parry/block +6, +3 Silver Plate Cuirass soak +10, no Dodge/Stealth penalty. 3 potions of healing. 1 potion of speed (1 extra action per round at no penalty), 1 potion of invisibility. +1 Light Bow ATT 8D+2 dam 6D+2. Often has additional elven artifacts & items.
Static Defences: Dodge 30 Block 24/30 Parry 37/43 Soak 14/24
Hero Points: 6
Gear: 5000gp in gems & platinum, adventurers' pack
LAST HERO OF THE ELVES Long ago, the elven empires defeated the prehuman monstrosities that dominated the primeval continent and helped to civilize the barbaric human tribes that shared Thule with them. Now the great elven cities are in ruins, and the great warrior-heroes of elvenkind are no more . . . except, perhaps, Orethya, the Silver Sword of Imystrahl, sometimes known as the Last Hero of the Elves. Orethya has led a dozen desperate quests across the centuries, challenging the ancient enemies of elvenkind or safeguarding dangerous legacies left behind by her people. Some believe that she is deliberately erasing the history of her people, ensuring that future civilizations will not be inluenced by the arcane lore and haughty pride of their predecessors.
HYAR THOMEL, THE SAGE OF ATLANTIS
Atlantean Human Male
Might: 3D (Blade 5D+2, Brawl 5D+2)
Wit: 5D (Lore 12D Magic 12D Perception 7D+2 Survival 7D)
Agility: 3D+1 (Dodge 7D+1)
Charm: 5D (Command 6D+2 Courage 8D Persuade 9D)
Complications: White Wizard - may not harm others with his magic. He appears to be immune to magic, in turn.
Heroic Narrative: Guardian of the Nine - Perfect Clarity - may spend (only) one Hero Point after making any Wit or Charm roll, to add +6 to that roll.
Gear: Bracers of Defence +2 unarmoured Dodge/Block/Parry, Ring of Protection +1 Dodge/Block/Parry, Robe of the Sorcerer (+2D to Fly & Teleport rolls), Crystal Ball (+3D to Clairvoyance & Divination rolls), Greater Spell Staff +1D to Magic 3 times per day, many other arcane items and devices
Static Defences: Dodge 25 Block 20 Parry 20 Soak 9
Hero Points: 6
Spells: 24
Gear: ca 75,000gp in cash resources, mostly in Katagian bank deposits.
THE SAGE OF ATLANTIS On the outskirts of Katagia stands a lonely tower, overlooking the sea. This is the home of Hyar Thomel, the legendary Sage of Atlantis. A whitebearded old man now bent with age, Hyar Thomel is the last living person who was born on the island of Atlantis. How this is possible, none can say, since he was already an old man when the sea claimed Atlantis, and that was three hundred years ago. Hyar Thomel seeks to preserve the legacy of Atlantis by sharing his scientific and cultural advances with the younger races of Thule. The Sage of Atlantis is an excellent source of information.
And just below that, a major hero type:
Caldrea of Caldrea's Tower, former student of Hyar Thomel, reverent of Azura
Human or Half-Elf Female
Might: 2D+2
Wit: 5D (Lore 9D Magic 10D Perception 6D+1)
Agility: 3D+1 (Dodge 7D+1)
Charm: 4D (Command 6D Courage 6D Persuade 7D Seduce 6D)
Heroic Narrative: Occult Scientist. Metaphysics. can spend a Hero Point to add +6 to a Magic roll after the roll has been made. Up to 3 Hero Points may be spent on the roll, as usual. This also increases any damage inflicted by the spell by the same amount.
Gear: Cloak of the Sorcerer (+2D to Fly & Teleport rolls). Crystal Ball (+3D to Clairvoyance & Divination rolls) Ring of Protection +1 Dodge/Block/Parry, Spell Staff +1D to Magic once each day, many arcane items and devices at her tower.
Static Defences: Dodge 23 Block 9 Parry 9 Soak 8
Hero Points: 4
Spells: 20
Spells: Beast Tongue, Charm (Conc, +4D all Charm skills), Clairvoyance, Control Weather, Dark Vision, Death Spell (rng 30', TN 35, dmg 5D vs Might roll), Dispel Magic, Divination, ESP, Fly, Heal, Invisibility (TN 27, Conc, spot TN 15/+5D Stealth), Light, Lightning Bolt (TN 23, 2 actions if fire bolt same round, Magic vs Dodge, 5D dmg, no armour), Paralysis (TN 15+target Charm roll, rng 150'), See Magic Aura, Slumber (10 targets, 30' radius, TN 10+Wit roll, 1 hr), Still Mind, Telekinesis, Teleport (TN 30,+5 per additional willing target)
Gear: typically 1,800gp in gem purse, ca 23,200 gp in cash resources at her tower.
Born of an Atlantean father and Princess of the Dhari, it is said that Caldrea ceased to study under Hyar Thomel following a falling out over the wisdom of using destructive magics in the service of Light. From her tower beyond Quodeth she watches over the reptile-men of fallen Vhaug and the smoking spires of the Zinandar mountains, alert to any rising evil. She is friendly with Khavas Rho and the Sword Sisters, though their areas of concern differ. Caldrea often travels, seeking new knowledge, new treasures and new magics. Outside her tower she is normally accompanied by loyal bodyguards, including 2 (away from home) to 4 (near tower) Bronze Warriors, and the great Winged Ape Gaugh.
Quote from: SHARK;1138137Greetings!
That's right, my friend! Have to keep the Murderhobo's in check! I always like to keep the players on their toes. They can never be sure that a City Guard Captain isn't one of the best swordsmen in the kingdom. The whole thing of the Player Characters being heroes is a fine foundation, but it isn't like the Player Characters are the *Only* heroes or champions in the area, the city, or the kingdom at large.
When some people whine, "Well, if the Players are just some of the heroes, and aren't really that special, why doesn't the Baron or the King have all these other heroes take care of problems?" I always tell them, "Well, the kingdom faces many problems, many struggles. There is usually more than enough to go around. Beyond that, why are you so worried about other heroes traveling the land, or at service to the King? You should worry about yourself living up to being a champion--if the job seems to be too tough, you can always go back to the farm!"
Of course there are other champions and heroes around. Besides that, at whatever level the Player Characters are at, I always feel like telling anyone with an attitude, "No, you aren't special. You aren't blessed. If you don't rise to the challenge, then you may face going into an early grave. Being a "Hero" is as much a journey as a destination. You need to always remember, out in the blasted wastes, in the hordes of beastmen and orcs, there is some young warrior that may just have your number! Death is always nearby, and no self-anointed title of "Hero" is protection from a harsh and savage reality."
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
The problem with this whimpering notion that "But the PCs are HEROES! Waaahhh!!!" is that, even if that was 100% true (it isn't), you don't need to make the ENTIRE population of the planet a pathetic mass of barely functional incompetent weaklings liable to die from a freaking bug bite just so that your fresh out of the gate, newly minted "hero" who's never even had a real adventure or done anything truly heroic yet in their lives can feel "special" by comparison. It also fails to take the scale of the world into account and the vast, gigantic differences between a 1 HD creature and a 10 or even 5 HD being, which is liable to devastate a score of 1 HD creatures on their own, much less a 20 HD character, which is as high as a PC can eventually hope to get.
In a world where giants, dragons and magical creatures exist, and monsters are rampant across the land, a human population made up almost entirely of pathetic 1 HD unskilled laborers who somehow maintain civilization despite having no skills of note cannot possibly hope to survive. I don't buy it for an instant. There's no way such a population can thrive if almost everyone you meet is an incompetent idiot incapable of performing high skill tasks or withstanding a giant rat attack. How has the local tribe of ogres not moved in yet and wiped the entire town out of existence? How has that not happened yet in every settlement in the world and driven humanity into extinction?
And do these people even understand the concept of the heroes journey or "leveling" up? "Heroes" in stories don't always have skills or power beyond those of the general population. Often they start out weak, barely at the same level as the average peasant, but they have courage and ambition, and the will to face challenges others wouldn't dare. And through luck and determination they manage to overcome the obstacles others thought insurmountable, and come out stronger in the end. It is that way that they ultimately become "heroes".
But if your character already is a "hero" before you've even played it, then what motive is there for growth? If your character is already exalted by virtue of being a "PC" then what do you have to prove? Creating a player character and keeping the population artificially weak is not what makes a character a hero. Rising above the challenges and becoming stronger through adversity does. Even if the average adult human is roughly level 3 your character will be able to far outstrip them eventually, cuz none of them can hope to ever be level 20. But you could.
Quote from: Opaopajr;1138134I never run zero lvl NPCs. :) Makes the "lvl shell game" interesting as the PCs should respect whoever they are addressing, as you never know whether you can take them on. This helps keep down scenery-chewing murderhobo antics down to a minimum in my campaigns.
I have been so fond of the results I see no benefit in changing for lvl-based games. :D
Would you want to have a 20th level commoner?
Quote from: S'mon;1138138In 5e D&D, NPCs don't normally have levels. I use the 11 hp MM Guard for raw recruits and peasant militia; my veteran warriors such as the Skandik vikings typically have 22 hp; crack troops like Quodethi Marines have 32 hp (& 2 attacks), elites like the Thule Legionary and MM Veteran have 52-58 hp. I tend to use the MM baseline spellcasters who cast at around 4th level and have ca 18-22 hp as typical Druids, Bards etc. Legendary characters are 17th-20th; I use the full 5e 1-20 level spread.
Quote from: jeff37923To keep PCs in check
Quote from: S'mon;1138144I don't really want to keep PCs in check - I love watching them break stuff! :cool:
OTOH NPCs need to be able to do their basic job, eg farmers ought normally be able to farm, city watch ought normally be able to keep order. Or there should be a good reason why that's not the case in a specific locale. High level heroes ought to be able to defeat at least a small dragon. A patrol group ought to be able to deal with a bandit gang or group of orc raiders. So I tweak a bit to get that result.
I'm roughly like this, except I don't really use 15-20. The majority of humans are the equivalent of 1st level; typical soldiers are slightly better; and ranging upwards for unusual cases. A village might have at most a handful of 4-6 level equivalent characters, a big city might have a handful of 9-12 level equivalent characters.
I don't like keeping players in check by secretly powerful NPCs, because for me it undercuts the point of adventuring. Typically, the PCs are the most powerful people in the area they're dealing with -- that's why it's up to them to deal with the problems there. If a desperate village calls on them for their help, that probably means they can murderhobo the village if they really wanted to.
Quote from: SHARK;1138137Greetings!
That's right, my friend! Have to keep the Murderhobo's in check! I always like to keep the players on their toes. They can never be sure that a City Guard Captain isn't one of the best swordsmen in the kingdom. The whole thing of the Player Characters being heroes is a fine foundation, but it isn't like the Player Characters are the *Only* heroes or champions in the area, the city, or the kingdom at large.
...
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
That reminds me, under the old D&D, 2nd edition or earlier, the best swordsman in the kingdom was likely to be the king himself! Why is that? Because under the old system, experience points were mostly earned through treasure collected rather than monsters slain. If you wanted a 1st level character to advance quickly, have the PC defeat a goblin and then collect his one million gold piece treasure! Even when not running a Monty haul campaign, just by awarding the standard treasures in the DM's guide, you find that high level characters tend to end up as nobles and rulers with their own castles. When a character reaches 10th level, it was a tradition for him to build a keep if a fighter, a tower if a magic user, a church if a cleric, or a lair if a thief. You are not going to get a high level city guard because if he were really high level, he would be running the city.
It would be interesting to compare old style high level characters with new style high level characters. Elminster under the old style would be the ruler of a kingdom, he wouldn't be a mere sage. High level campaigns often involved a character protecting his kingdom from threats presented to him by the DM, that is where Battlesystem came from. The highest level characters directed their troops.
Quote from: VisionStorm;1138194In a world where giants, dragons and magical creatures exist, and monsters are rampant across the land, a human population made up almost entirely of pathetic 1 HD unskilled laborers who somehow maintain civilization despite having no skills of note cannot possibly hope to survive. I don't buy it for an instant.
In my world, it's mostly a matter of numbers.
Defense target numbers are relatively static in my system so a sufficiently large enough group of grunts could take down even the mightiest dragon, BUT the cost in lives would be horrific.
There aren't enough dragons to seriously threaten humanity as a whole, but you really don't want to be the king who has to send thousands of his subjects to die horribly (amd greatly diminish his kingdom's defenses against other threats) unless there's no other choice.
PC adventurers are that other choice. You "pay" a handful of elite experts to handle the problem so your armies remain free to do the routine work of protecting the realm from bandits, raiders and similar threats.
Just for some hard numbers using "hit points" as a measure; a grunt conscript (i.e. a peasant given a spear and told to fight) has 5. A typical warrior (90% of an army) has 10-12, a veteran warrior (9% of an army) has 25-35, and an elite warrior (1% of the army) has 50-70.
A starting PC has 25-30 (but can rally mid-fight for up to another 25-30 at the cost of actions and long term resources), a level 6 PC has 50-60 (or 100-120 counting rallies) and a level 11 PC has 75-90 (or 150-180 with rallies).
A typical orc warrior has 15 and deals about 7 on a hit, an ogre 45 (deals 20), an ogre warlord 110 (deals 27 each w. two attacks), an elder volcanic dragon 400 (deals 40 to multiple targets with each of its two attacks), the Vessel of Tiamat (a specially prepared host body for the queen of all demons' essence in the mortal world) has 528 (deals 44 to multiple targets with each of it's two attacks per turn).
So in terms of a fight... yes, a group of 20 ordinary warriors could almost certainly down an ogre warlord, but they're probably going to lose half or more of their number to it in the process (not counting losses to the other ogres, orcs and goblins such a warlord would surely be leading), so it's not a fight any normal community goes looking for and which a wise ruler hires PCs to deal with.
Those numbers also mean that while one town guard is unlikely to be a threat to a starting PC, 5-6 of them will be. Any PC of level 6+ will be renowned enough that the local ruler would be calling in his veterans or even elite warriors to handle the threats.
As a sidebar: My design goal is kind of a Three Musketeers vibe. A lone starting PC can handle a number of faceless mooks at once (or a score or so with his allies at his side), but will be challenged one-to-one by key lieutenants and need to fight together to overcome a Big Bad type threat.
Quote from: jhkim;1138204I'm roughly like this, except I don't really use 15-20.
My demographics vary a ton by system. I got to really hate high level 3e/PF; if I have to run it I prefer PF 1-5 Beginner Box, or at most cap at 8th or 10th. My Classic BECMI game was nominally 1-36, but more like 1-20 in practice, and worked best at 1-14. 1e AD&D doesn't need a hard cap, but in practice works best with spells kept to 6th level and below, implying a level 11-12 soft cap. 4e D&D works best in the 1-20 range, arguably 1-10. 5e D&D I find quite unusual in how well it works all through 1-20 and beyond; so I like using the whole range for PC & NPC and fast by-the-book advancement around 2-3 sessions/level to experience it all.
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138203Would you want to have a 20th level commoner?
Only if he has his own pig.
Roughly 98-99% 0th level. Leveled characters are more common than average on the periphery, and also tend to be higher level, but the highest level characters are almost always found in major hubs.
In anything D&D-derived I start with the ACKS demographics until there's some reason otherwise. That's default 0-HD, 5% classed at 1st level, 2%? at 2nd level, dropping off from there; having rulers in levels 10-14 fits my expectations.
This sort of thing is one of the reasons I heavily favor GURPS for gaming over systems like D&D and level based progression.
With GURPS, a 50 point guardsman aiming a crossbow at a party of characters who are 300pts is a threat. Some of them may have defenses that lessen this threat, but if he HITS them, they could be in trouble, especially if he used a augmented ST (winch or goats foot to cock it) xbow, or hits the vitals. So I do not have to inflate guardsmen to be a problem for the group. One guards man with a halberd is not going to take on the sword and shield warrior of the party, BUT, 4 such guardsmen present a problem to the warrior, so there is no need for a super NPC to come along and spank the party. The Leader of a city could be a 500 pt character who uses a sword that the 100 point starting warrior will beat the brakes off of in a one on one fight, because the Polished Politician has spent only 2 points on his sword skill. Of course, the fact he can command the militia to arrest the whole party is where his points come from.
I can not answer this question in a D&D perspective, because I have not run it very much. For GURPS, my most developed campaign is Hyborian Adventures (Conan). There an average NPC is 25 pts. PCs started at 150 pts. They are always recruiting extra swords and spears for their adventures, and a 100 point NPC mercenary is a guy who has a history, a nickname, and people in the business have heard of him. If an NPC is a 200 point value, he is well known for whatever it is he does, bandit, sorcerer, warrior, leader, whatever. 300 point starts moving towards Barons, William Marshall level knights, Robin hood level bandits, etc.
This is what I like about GURPS. I do not have to massively inflate unrelated characteristics to an NPC (or PC for that matter) to represent good or even legendary level of skill at an activity or craft.
I'm going to go with 0 to 1st level. 3 is too high and (I think) assumes most people can hit, which isn't what history shows us. Battles of a thousand could wage for 12 hours and result in under 50 deaths whether guns were used or not. The fact many people can't kill someone else is ignored by most games. Yes, PCs are the exception.
Quote from: oggsmash;1138323This sort of thing is one of the reasons I heavily favor GURPS for gaming over systems like D&D and level based progression.
With GURPS, a 50 point guardsman aiming a crossbow at a party of characters who are 300pts is a threat. Some of them may have defenses that lessen this threat, but if he HITS them, they could be in trouble, especially if he used a augmented ST (winch or goats foot to cock it) xbow, or hits the vitals. So I do not have to inflate guardsmen to be a problem for the group. One guards man with a halberd is not going to take on the sword and shield warrior of the party, BUT, 4 such guardsmen present a problem to the warrior, so there is no need for a super NPC to come along and spank the party. The Leader of a city could be a 500 pt character who uses a sword that the 100 point starting warrior will beat the brakes off of in a one on one fight, because the Polished Politician has spent only 2 points on his sword skill. Of course, the fact he can command the militia to arrest the whole party is where his points come from.
I can not answer this question in a D&D perspective, because I have not run it very much. For GURPS, my most developed campaign is Hyborian Adventures (Conan). There an average NPC is 25 pts. PCs started at 150 pts. They are always recruiting extra swords and spears for their adventures, and a 100 point NPC mercenary is a guy who has a history, a nickname, and people in the business have heard of him. If an NPC is a 200 point value, he is well known for whatever it is he does, bandit, sorcerer, warrior, leader, whatever. 300 point starts moving towards Barons, William Marshall level knights, Robin hood level bandits, etc.
This is what I like about GURPS. I do not have to massively inflate unrelated characteristics to an NPC (or PC for that matter) to represent good or even legendary level of skill at an activity or craft.
This would make GURPS dungeons very deadly. I hope you like making new 300 point characters a lot!
Quote from: oggsmash;1138323This sort of thing is one of the reasons I heavily favor GURPS for gaming over systems like D&D and level based progression.
With GURPS, a 50 point guardsman aiming a crossbow at a party of characters who are 300pts is a threat. Some of them may have defenses that lessen this threat, but if he HITS them, they could be in trouble, especially if he used a augmented ST (winch or goats foot to cock it) xbow, or hits the vitals. So I do not have to inflate guardsmen to be a problem for the group. One guards man with a halberd is not going to take on the sword and shield warrior of the party, BUT, 4 such guardsmen present a problem to the warrior, so there is no need for a super NPC to come along and spank the party. The Leader of a city could be a 500 pt character who uses a sword that the 100 point starting warrior will beat the brakes off of in a one on one fight, because the Polished Politician has spent only 2 points on his sword skill. Of course, the fact he can command the militia to arrest the whole party is where his points come from.
I can not answer this question in a D&D perspective, because I have not run it very much. For GURPS, my most developed campaign is Hyborian Adventures (Conan). There an average NPC is 25 pts. PCs started at 150 pts. They are always recruiting extra swords and spears for their adventures, and a 100 point NPC mercenary is a guy who has a history, a nickname, and people in the business have heard of him. If an NPC is a 200 point value, he is well known for whatever it is he does, bandit, sorcerer, warrior, leader, whatever. 300 point starts moving towards Barons, William Marshall level knights, Robin hood level bandits, etc.
This is what I like about GURPS. I do not have to massively inflate unrelated characteristics to an NPC (or PC for that matter) to represent good or even legendary level of skill at an activity or craft.
True, but any skill-based system gets you that without having to deal with all the weird stuff that goes into GURPS points.
Quote from: Chris24601;1138212In my world, it's mostly a matter of numbers.
Defense target numbers are relatively static in my system so a sufficiently large enough group of grunts could take down even the mightiest dragon, BUT the cost in lives would be horrific.
There aren't enough dragons to seriously threaten humanity as a whole, but you really don't want to be the king who has to send thousands of his subjects to die horribly (amd greatly diminish his kingdom's defenses against other threats) unless there's no other choice.
PC adventurers are that other choice. You "pay" a handful of elite experts to handle the problem so your armies remain free to do the routine work of protecting the realm from bandits, raiders and similar threats.
Just for some hard numbers using "hit points" as a measure; a grunt conscript (i.e. a peasant given a spear and told to fight) has 5. A typical warrior (90% of an army) has 10-12, a veteran warrior (9% of an army) has 25-35, and an elite warrior (1% of the army) has 50-70.
A starting PC has 25-30 (but can rally mid-fight for up to another 25-30 at the cost of actions and long term resources), a level 6 PC has 50-60 (or 100-120 counting rallies) and a level 11 PC has 75-90 (or 150-180 with rallies).
A typical orc warrior has 15 and deals about 7 on a hit, an ogre 45 (deals 20), an ogre warlord 110 (deals 27 each w. two attacks), an elder volcanic dragon 400 (deals 40 to multiple targets with each of its two attacks), the Vessel of Tiamat (a specially prepared host body for the queen of all demons' essence in the mortal world) has 528 (deals 44 to multiple targets with each of it's two attacks per turn).
So in terms of a fight... yes, a group of 20 ordinary warriors could almost certainly down an ogre warlord, but they're probably going to lose half or more of their number to it in the process (not counting losses to the other ogres, orcs and goblins such a warlord would surely be leading), so it's not a fight any normal community goes looking for and which a wise ruler hires PCs to deal with.
Those numbers also mean that while one town guard is unlikely to be a threat to a starting PC, 5-6 of them will be. Any PC of level 6+ will be renowned enough that the local ruler would be calling in his veterans or even elite warriors to handle the threats.
As a sidebar: My design goal is kind of a Three Musketeers vibe. A lone starting PC can handle a number of faceless mooks at once (or a score or so with his allies at his side), but will be challenged one-to-one by key lieutenants and need to fight together to overcome a Big Bad type threat.
I suppose it depends on the system and edition. 5e might be more forgiving of 1 HD/Level creatures than earlier editions due to lower ranges of AC and Proficiency modifiers, making low HD creatures more likely to hit and high HD creatures more likely to miss. But their chances are still not good and every successful hit from a large monster (like dragons or giants) is pretty much guaranteed to kill a 1 HD creature (often on STR modifiers alone), making that one less creature that'll might get a chance to maybe damage them the following round. And any area effects are guaranteed to kill several (perhaps dozens) more. And that's not even taking into account multiple monsters and tactics.
Even if the town somehow manages to survive the attack there's still other monsters in the land, and even natural creatures that will be a bigger threat and more likely to wonder into town now, attracted by the stench of the carcasses and their severely diminished population and defenses. Even rats will be a major threat, since a single D&D rat can pretty much kill a peasant, and there are less walls and guards to protect them now.
And then there's the elements and natural disasters to contend with. A natural plague could wipe out what little is left of the town and if the attack happened before winter they're pretty much dead already. Famine would be an issue as well, specially with less farmers and destroyed crops after the battle. Even if they survive a whole year a second attack from some other threat may wipe out their remaining numbers.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1138361True, but any skill-based system gets you that without having to deal with all the weird stuff that goes into GURPS points.
True, and there is zero reason for me to assign points to any NPC though. I just need a relative level of competence, advantages and focus (combat, leader, magic, all of em, whatever). But I can give an answer based around where an NPC would fall if there were any reason for me to put in writing his obligations and propensity to pick his nose when nervous. I think using points for anyone but PCs is a waste of time.
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138358This would make GURPS dungeons very deadly. I hope you like making new 300 point characters a lot!
Well, this depends. If you make foolish choices (attack the noble who has 20 crossbowmen with heavy crossbows aimed at you) you will pay for it instantly. Combat happens often and healing is rare in that campaign. But if you can hedge your bets, it is not as dangerous as it would appear, but again, bad tactical errors can cost you instantly (attacked from behind can be a one shot for the hardiest warrior). Dungeon conditions actually tend to favor the smaller party so far, as the constricted environment keeps the front facing odds in their favor. Swords and Sorcery and Fantasy, I find GURPS to not be horribly deadly, dangerous yes, but as the group can often retrieve a fallen (knocked out) member before they die or get a coup de grace, not too many die if the party plays smart and sticks together. In the Sci fi setting though.....extremely deadly.
Quote from: Naburimannu;1138310In anything D&D-derived I start with the ACKS demographics until there's some reason otherwise. That's default 0-HD, 5% classed at 1st level, 2%? at 2nd level, dropping off from there; having rulers in levels 10-14 fits my expectations.
I see that a lot. Is there any society, real or fictional, where most rulers got their position through puissance at arms?
Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1138450I see that a lot. Is there any society, real or fictional, where most rulers got their position through puissance at arms?
Plenty of societies where the ruler is expected to be a capable warrior - including pretty well all of Europe until at least the 19th century. Rarely have they been expected to be the
best warrior, though.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1138361True, but any skill-based system gets you that without having to deal with all the weird stuff that goes into GURPS points.
Not just that, but AD&D1e with the right bunch of house rules, and/or the right setting assumptions. For example, if the world were pre-Norman England, then there are no monsters and treasures are not very great. A Common Man isn't worth much XP. This means that going up levels is very slow indeed. A 3rd level character might be someone who'd defeated one hundred men!
Or you can do it very high fantasy indeed. A page of house rules here, a few pages removed from the books there...
Quote from: VisionStorm;1138362But their chances are still not good and every successful hit from a large monster (like dragons or giants) is pretty much guaranteed to kill a 1 HD creature (often on STR modifiers alone), making that one less creature that'll might get a chance to maybe damage them the following round. And any area effects are guaranteed to kill several (perhaps dozens) more. And that's not even taking into account multiple monsters and tactics.
You seem to be implying this is a bug, rather than a feature. The feature being an explanation for both why monsters don't completely overrun the world (i.e. enough common soldiers CAN bring down even the mightiest dragon... though as I said in my initial post the losses would be horrific) AND why it's preferable for communities to hire adventurers to deal with these type of threats when the arise (i.e. a group of just 4-6 PCs can take out the dragon without risking horrific losses to the community) while also explaining why the PCs who can kill said dragon also can't just take over everything (i.e. enough common soldiers can take them out too).
It's very convenient for world-building in my experience because you can keep your civilizations functioning more or less normally while still having a place for both PC adventurers and monsters in it that doesn't see both become essentially superheroes/villains in an otherwise medieval fantasy setting.
PCs fill the role of elite experts who travel to where their services are in demand. Just as a ruler would commission a famous architect to design his palace and a famous painter to compose the murals of its walls, so too do they commission adventurers to deal with the Manticore slaughtering livestock in his lands or to remove the threat of the ogres massing in the hills near a critical trade town (better to save his own knights and troops for the summer campaign against the rival kingdom to the East... in large part because those knights and troops are actually trained for such things, not how to take down flying fire breathing reptiles of unusual size).
Quote from: Chris24601;1138464You seem to be implying this is a bug, rather than a feature. The feature being an explanation for both why monsters don't completely overrun the world (i.e. enough common soldiers CAN bring down even the mightiest dragon... though as I said in my initial post the losses would be horrific) AND why it's preferable for communities to hire adventurers to deal with these type of threats when the arise (i.e. a group of just 4-6 PCs can take out the dragon without risking horrific losses to the community) while also explaining why the PCs who can kill said dragon also can't just take over everything (i.e. enough common soldiers can take them out too).
It's very convenient for world-building in my experience because you can keep your civilizations functioning more or less normally while still having a place for both PC adventurers and monsters in it that doesn't see both become essentially superheroes/villains in an otherwise medieval fantasy setting.
PCs fill the role of elite experts who travel to where their services are in demand. Just as a ruler would commission a famous architect to design his palace and a famous painter to compose the murals of its walls, so too do they commission adventurers to deal with the Manticore slaughtering livestock in his lands or to remove the threat of the ogres massing in the hills near a critical trade town (better to save his own knights and troops for the summer campaign against the rival kingdom to the East... in large part because those knights and troops are actually trained for such things, not how to take down flying fire breathing reptiles of unusual size).
Yes. The question here applies to any system design: How much do numbers matter when it comes to fights relative to how much does skill matter? Every system is going to answer that question a little differently, and how they answer it is of course has a strong effect on how some fights will go.
Usually 1-20. Except for Traveller.
Going over the NPC ruler levels in my 1e AD&D campaign this morning, I came up with the following. It's for generating rulers in civilised territory, not isolated wilderness fortresses (who will typically be Level 8+ Superheroes, Patriarchs et al). I like Moldvay Basic D&D's suggestion that the typical noble is a Fighter-3, so I somewhat based around that.
NPC Ruler Demographics (d20)
Level 1 - 1-2
Level 2 - 3-4
Level 3 - 5-10
Level 4 - 11-14
Level 5 - 15-16
Level 6 - 17
Level 7 - 18
Level 8 - 19
Level 9+ - 20
Rulers are around 20% sedentary aristocrat (d4 hd, including an occasional Sage), 45% Fighter, 15% Cleric, 10% Thief, 5% Magic-User, 5% Other Class (Illusionist, Ranger, Paladin, Monk, etc).
0-level for most NPCs. They're not adventurers, but they're mostly the faceless NPCs. NPCs who matter could have any level. My NPCs who are major forces in the world are 9th-11th level (in S&W:WB where PCs max at 10th).
I like the concept of PCs capable of wiping out the city watch, but in 0e, that's not a big concern because a bunch of zero level dudes are dangerous in large groups. Don't be the mage who loses initiative and gets 6 javelins thrown at him!
In OD&D, the mage probably has AC 10-12 and the 0 level guards have +0 attack, so the mage is probably taking 3 hits at 1D6 each or 10 hit points damage. That's gonna toast a 3rd level mage, and severely wound even a 6th level mage.
Quote from: S'mon;1138804Going over the NPC ruler levels in my 1e AD&D campaign this morning, I came up with the following. It's for generating rulers in civilised territory, not isolated wilderness fortresses (who will typically be Level 8+ Superheroes, Patriarchs et al). I like Moldvay Basic D&D's suggestion that the typical noble is a Fighter-3, so I somewhat based around that.
NPC Ruler Demographics (d20)
Level 1 - 1-2
Level 2 - 3-4
Level 3 - 5-10
Level 4 - 11-14
Level 5 - 15-16
Level 6 - 17
Level 7 - 18
Level 8 - 19
Level 9+ - 20
Rulers are around 20% sedentary aristocrat (d4 hd, including an occasional Sage), 45% Fighter, 15% Cleric, 10% Thief, 5% Magic-User, 5% Other Class (Illusionist, Ranger, Paladin, Monk, etc).
Or you could use this experience/gold piece table for level advancement:
Level : experience or gold pieces
1 : 0
2 : 1,000
3 : 2,000
4 : 4,000
5 : 8,000
6 : 16,000
7 : 32,000
8 : 64,000
9 : 125,000
10 : 250,000
11 : 500,000
12 : 1,000,000
13 : 2,000,000
14 : 4,000,000
15 : 8,000,000
16 : 16,000,000
17 : 32,000,000
18 : 64,000,000
19 : 125,000,000
20 : 250,000,000
First you figure out the total assets of the community divide that by 5 and look at the chart above, and that is the level of the ruler, or you could start with the ruler and multiply his experience points by 5 to determine the total assets of the community he rules.
Did this table today.
Captains, Castellans & Stewards (d6)
These are normally experienced Fighters. The same table may be used for Magists (MU) and Court Chaplains (Cleric).
Level 4: 1
Level 5: 2-3
Level 6: 4
Level 7: 5
Level 8: 6