Quote from: ElBorak;1117276The fiction out there right now (popular and mainstream) is that both pre- and early D&D were all about the "murderhobo" style and they preach that as THE ONE TRUE WAY. Where the truth is that the "murderhobo" style is very popular with teenage boys and immature adults, that is not a criticism just the facts. Some people enjoy that style of gaming and nothing wrong with that.

We completely agree that this is total fiction. In fact, what is referred to as the "Murderhobo" style was not our 0D&D play style even right from the from time I started playing and running D&D back in 1977. That didn't evolve until much later, at its' earliest, I saw elements of this play style at our gaming table back in 1980, and it came right along with with AD&D and the pre-published TSR D&D modules.

Our style of playing D&D rewarded experience points for making creative and unorthodox solutions to solve problems, awarded XP for finding and disarming traps (Both physical and political), awarded xp for participation, as in getting xp for starting and finishing an entire play session, and even xp awards for original thinking, problem solving, and even witty or original roleplaying.

The Murderhobo style was established by GMs that didn't want to spend time creating their fantasy environment, and went instead to straight competitive play, competing directly for prizes and treasures. Because they had not invested personal time and energy into creating their own fantasy game worlds, they were not particularly attached to those gaming worlds, and would let the players run free, because they had no checks and balances that would motivate players to choose a virtuous path. Interestingly enough, nature itself provides such checks and balances for any evolving species in real life.

Quote from: ElBorak;1117277You may be gay, but I am not, so that is not what I am doing, I was stating the facts.

Really. It's a "fact" that old fucks should get special treatment, because they happened to be first.

Okay boomer.

QuoteAnd neckbeards is an insult that the ignorant use to devalue anything we older folks say.

I like how you apparently didn't read what I said about what said neckbeards did, and just jumped right on that.

I'm sorry your feelings get hurt over being called names. Wait, I mean the other one: I mean I don't give two fucks. If you're so thin-skinned that that bothers you, you're not worth talking to anyway.

If one is concerned about the loss of information, comments what have you, then instead of bitching about it, archive it.  Taking a screenshot of a complete web page is easier than ever, at least in Firefox, right click and 'take a screenshot'  select 'save full page'.  There is also the wayback machine, https://archive.org/web/ where you can save a web page.  Also, http://archive.li/  I'll bet there are other places to archive as well.  It is entirely possible to save multiple pages.  Hell, even right click 'save page as' works most of the time.

Ah, of course one makes backups of important files on your hard drive, at least two, one of which is not internet accessible, right?

Quote from: GnomeWorks;1117279Really. It's a "fact" that old fucks should get special treatment, because they happened to be first.

Okay boomer.

I'll tell you why old fucks should get the special treatment, since you really want to know... (...not, it seems you're just here to insult old folk, instead of really talk about games)...

We were there. We saw how the games were played. We observed how they were supposed to be played, we ran and played the games, we modified the rules to make the game even better, and we did so well at all of that, that it evolved into a multi-billion dollar industry, an industry that supports the livelihood of tens of thousands of people now, perhaps even hundreds of thousands, perhaps more than a million, perhaps more than several million, and this industry also contributes to the happiness and well-being of many millions of people. You're welcome.

Perhaps you can contribute to that legacy, or create your own better legacy (I'd really like to see that!), instead of just running around here and shitting all over other people.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1117274Ehh? My claim to censorship from Murkhill is valid, You claimed not to delete the posts but rather "moved" them instead. If they are moved to a place that may be logically consistent for you all, however is a place that is not easily located on the subforums, how is that, in any way, ...not censoring original posts? I still believe there are missing posts as well that were once on Murkhill forums from both Rob Kuntz's forum, as well as the Wilderlands forums there, because I remember posting more, and this includes discussions that both me and Rob participated in, and in the wilderlands discussions. He noticed this as well with his posts.  I believe that is one of the reasons he stopped posting there, because he rightfully felt there were mods there that were modifying the placement of forums, and moving posts, in a quite unethical manner. Also some of the posts that are gone, ...may have been from before you were a mod there, so you wouldn't have seen the originals.

Nothing by Rob was deleted, nothing by you was deleted. I went looking in regard to the Wilderlands discussions. There were some Wilderlands discussions that were started in Rob Conley's Majestic Wilderlands area(NOT THE MAIN WILDERLANDS AREA), that is where they were started, so I moved them recently to the Wilderlands area where they belonged but never were before. Yes the forums did get some rearrangement and most people can now find things easier. As for your forum being moved to a sub-forum area it was moved because you abandoned it for a long period. You start posting and it goes back to the main page. Or if it gets expanded to something of size, like Rob Kuntz's forum, then it stays on the front page forever. Nothing has been deleted from Rob Kuntz's forum, absolutely nothing. That was a condition that TPD made before he stepped down. If you are having trouble finding things I am sorry about that. But I sent you a copy of every post you have made at The Ruins. Please look at it and if you tell me which ones you think should be someplace else I will look at that with you. Rob Kuntz's forum was completely locked down at his request. So nothing gets moved in or out of there.

Now along the way a very small number of threads where temporarily hidden when they became very disruptive. Those disruptive people stay at ODD74 and no longer come around. As for those threads I moved them back to their original locations once the furor died down. Sometimes thread have to be locked. I try to go back and unlock them after a time. I do not like hidden or locked threads. Now some threads are locked in the Announcements area (now called the Town Crier) but those are management not discussion threads.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1117274What I do know for sure is that I was permabanned from the 0D&D 74' Proboards, and my posts were moved and/or deleted over on Murkhill. Tell me how I should feel when all of this happens on forums that are supposed to specifically support original Dungeons and Dragons and claims to maintain the original history of RPG's? If those were your posts, you'd be a bit miffed, perhaps even hostile as well, ehh?

All of us who were perma-banned who were high posters like TPD or like Mormanyoyoman or minimal posters like me who had their accounts deleted during the 1200+ account purge feel your pain.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1117274As to Michael Mornard, everyone claims he is hostile or condescending, yet my personal experience in this regards differs remarkably from what is claimed online, My experience differs in my online correspondence with him, here, over on the 0D&D boards, over on Dragonsfoot, over on Murkhill, in private emails, and directly when I meet him during gaming at GaryCon every year. I find he has character, his posts are colorful, and may from time-to-time contain unorthodox language, however have never felt that he was deliberately trying to damage, distort, or conceal the knowledge and early lore of Dungeons and Dragons and roleplaying in general. Can you explain why our views diverge so much regarding this, because I can't? I can only go by what I know from talking in person with him, and in corresponding with him.

You and I do not disagree about Michael Mornard. He is indeed very nice in private conversations and has much to add if people are open to it.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1117274As to the original D&D playstyle as it evolved from 1970-1975, before the 0D&D rules were published, each group had its' own playstyle that evolved directly as a result of genesis within the groups where they made their own decisions within the group how to best intrepret and play the game. Even after the publication of the little brown books (...and the whitebooks, which we first saw in 1977 by the way. My first D&D boxed set was 3rd printing of the little brown books, which I traded for a 4th edition whitebookset, a copy of the JG Ready Ref Sheets, a Bluebox Holmes D&D basic set, and a handful of polyhedral dice, even back in 1977 the first edition of D&D was considered a collectors item. The very first D&D games I played were exclusively using wooden 3d6 that were included in the lbb), even after the publication of D&D and the lbb, different playstyles evolved based on rules that were adopted by local gaming clubs. I have the Caltech Warlock rules, as well as first edition copies of the Princeton University D&D Club rules. I wanted to get a copy of the Notre Dame D&D rules (and yes they had a D&D Variant too!), but found that the Alumni who had played original D&D were no longer sponsoring the RPG club up there. That I learned when I traveled up to Notre Dame  in 2011 to run original D&D games for the University RPG Club there. PM me if you want a link to where you might be able to find a copy of Warlock, The Caltech D&D rules, or the Princeton D&D Club original D&D rules.

I have the original Warlock rules AFAIK, but I would love to have the all of the above, so will send you that PM.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1117274Our Colorado Group evolved our own play style from 1977 to 1979, and pretty much adopted rules from both the White 74' Bookset as well as Judges Guild to run D&D games in our homes and at Ghengis Con and Tacticon in the winter. We had a few home rules, but never published our own D&D houserules.

Yep, as did many of us, I think many of us wished we had published them now and have kept records of our games.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1117274To say there was One True Way(tm) of playing D&D, even in 1974, would be a fallacy, considering all the evidence that is easily available, that contradicts that statement. For any message board or forum to claim otherwise, even privately, is a false narrative, and a false history, of how Dungeons and Dragons specifically, and Roleplaying Games in general, evolved.

Very true.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1117274Also, in terms of schools of D&D, My original GM taught me to play using the Arnesonian School as that is being referred in this discussion, and it remains my favorite style of play, both as a player and a GM.

Again quite true. TPD teaches that (using the new term Arnesonian School) is that that method of playing is implicit in the rules and can be learned from the 3 LBBs without outside help if you have a background in older fantasy literature and the pulps as well as at least tangential wargaming such as Risk, Battleship and other non-sand table wargames, although if you played sand table wargames that gives you a leg up.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1117278We completely agree that this is total fiction. In fact, what is referred to as the "Murderhobo" style was not our 0D&D play style even right from the from time I started playing and running D&D back in 1977. That didn't evolve until much later, at its' earliest, I saw elements of this play style at our gaming table back in 1980, and it came right along with with AD&D and the pre-published TSR D&D modules.

Our style of playing D&D rewarded experience points for making creative and unorthodox solutions to solve problems, awarded XP for finding and disarming traps (Both physical and political), awarded xp for participation, as in getting xp for starting and finishing an entire play session, and even xp awards for original thinking, problem solving, and even witty or original roleplaying.

The Murderhobo style was established by GMs that didn't want to spend time creating their fantasy environment, and went instead to straight competitive play, competing directly for prizes and treasures. Because they had not invested personal time and energy into creating their own fantasy game worlds, they were not particularly attached to those gaming worlds, and would let the players run free, because they had no checks and balances that would motivate players to choose a virtuous path. Interestingly enough, nature itself provides such checks and balances for any evolving species in real life.

Absolutely on all points.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;1117279Really. It's a "fact" that old fucks should get special treatment, because they happened to be first.

Okay boomer.

I like how you apparently didn't read what I said about what said neckbeards did, and just jumped right on that.

I'm sorry your feelings get hurt over being called names. Wait, I mean the other one: I mean I don't give two fucks. If you're so thin-skinned that that bothers you, you're not worth talking to anyway.

You didn't hurt my feelings you just lost all credibility. And the "OK boomer" that just convinced me that you know nothing of value. That is OK, in about 40 years you will understand how little you know right now.

Quote from: Franky;1117280If one is concerned about the loss of information, comments what have you, then instead of bitching about it, archive it.  Taking a screenshot of a complete web page is easier than ever, at least in Firefox, right click and 'take a screenshot'  select 'save full page'.  There is also the wayback machine, https://archive.org/web/ where you can save a web page.  Also, http://archive.li/  I'll bet there are other places to archive as well.  It is entirely possible to save multiple pages.  Hell, even right click 'save page as' works most of the time.

Ah, of course one makes backups of important files on your hard drive, at least two, one of which is not internet accessible, right?

Opera, lets you SAVE AS PDF directly. And you can use Primo pdf to stitch them into a single file with all the pages in order.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1117281I'll tell you why old fucks should get the special treatment, since you really want to know... (...not, it seems you're just here to insult old folk, instead of really talk about games)...

:rolleyes:

I just get tired of the amount of cocksucking that goes on when talking about the greybeards. If you'd, y'know, actually read my first post here in this thread, you'd have noted that I did indeed say that what the older crowd has done is important and should be preserved. But there's a difference between "their knowledge, stories, and experiments should be preserved and annotated correctly, without being fucked with by SJW jackasses," and "worship the ground St. Gary and St. Arneson walked on," and some of you people seem to lean way more to the latter.

Instead I got a bunch of pixelbitching over the word "neckbeard," because you can't be arsed to read and we live in an age where everybody throws a shit fit the moment anybody says anything vaguely negative in their general direction.

So guess what, grandpa: you're just like the "special little snowflakes" you like to bitch about. Old fucks are as dumb as young fucks, nothing new under the sun.

Quote from: ElBorakYou didn't hurt my feelings you just lost all credibility. And the "OK boomer" that just convinced me that you know nothing of value. That is OK, in about 40 years you will understand how little you know right now.

Yep, I know nothing of value because I'm shit-talking you for being an old fuck who can't get over that I called old people "neckbeards."

Fucking hell. Be careful handling paper, old man, I think you'd bleed out if it looked at you funny, your skin is so thin.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1117281I'll tell you why old fucks should get the special treatment, since you really want to know... (...not, it seems you're just here to insult old folk, instead of really talk about games)...

We were there.

Hey snowflake. You're not specially for having existed.

If you have information you think is important for others to see and you want them to see it, post it yourself in a location you control. Don't whine like a little bitch that someone else isn't caretaking content you posted to their board, at their expense, the way you want them to. You sound like an entitled millennial whiner.

Quote from: Omega;1117254Im starting to wonder if those other boards, Dragonsfoot and ODD74, have been, or are in the process of, being infiltrated by that storygamer/Forge/GNS/Swine cult that has been trying to edit the history of RPGs to suit their warped agenda. The hydra has many heads indeed.

As for Mike getting a ban for repeated infractions. How is that in any way surprising? He DOES come across as condescending and hostile at times. Sometimes deservedly so. But he also has a very bad tendency to push his version of "one true way"ism which is demonstrably off kilter - and he knows it! He knows it because he has bitched incessantly about the very fact that right out the gate people started playing D&D in every imaginable way once it hit the shelves! In this case apparently magnified by him posting over on a fora that is getting gradually hostile to the idea of their fantasy bubble of how D&D was being broke.

BGG would have banned him in record time.

As to people playing D&D "every imaginable way," I can attest to that. Only one DM I knew in the New Haven area (out of seven) ran Rules as Written and all of the campaigns that I experienced, including the one using RaW, were really good to great. But we all called our games D&D because it was the root of the hobby. From what I've seen, the OSR releases are closer to RaW than what  most of us did. I don't remember that changing when modules started appearing but very few of us used modules. I ran "Keep on the Borderland" but that's about it.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;1117291:rolleyes:

I just get tired of the amount of cocksucking that goes on when talking

The only ones talking about that c*********g are you LGBTQP+ Types. And I do not want to know about your deviant sexual practices not yours or the other millennial snowflakes like you. And please all of you LGBTQP+ Types, stay away from children.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;1117291:rolleyes: So guess what, grandpa: you're just like the "special little snowflakes" you like to bitch about. Old fucks are as dumb as young fucks, nothing new under the sun.

Your contributions and legacy to creating better roleplaying games here is duly noted, Thank you.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1117294As to people playing D&D "every imaginable way," I can attest to that. Only one DM I knew in the New Haven area (out of seven) ran Rules as Written and all of the campaigns that I experienced, including the one using RaW, were really good to great. But we all called our games D&D because it was the root of the hobby. From what I've seen, the OSR releases are closer to RaW than what  most of us did. I don't remember that changing when modules started appearing but very few of us used modules. I ran "Keep on the Borderland" but that's about it.

Yep, that is my experience. Many of the OSR releases are closer to RaW than what  most of us did and that had a purpose in the beginning, but I think it would have wider appeal now if the OSR releases were more variable like bitd.

Quote from: Mistwell;1117292Hey snowflake. You're not specially for having existed.

If you have information you think is important for others to see and you want them to see it, post it yourself in a location you control. Don't whine like a little bitch that someone else isn't caretaking content you posted to their board, at their expense, the way you want them to. You sound like an entitled millennial whiner.

You are wrong. I'm special because I do exist, I'm especially special here because I'm one of a decreasing number of individuals who were around at the very dawn of role-playing games and can provide accurate accounts of what happened, and how it evolved.

You can pretty much count on it, that I'll be calling out anyone who claims to support original D&D, and the original games that were played, but who fail to maintain those contributions made by those original gamers and game masters on their forums and game spaces. That's not whining by the way, that's a statement of fact, simply holding them accountable to their word that they want to maintain a public forum that is devoted to supporting the original games.