Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1111685I've replaced by MgT1 core rulebook with the MgT2 core rulebook. I have all the MgT1 books. And no books for MgT2 other than the core rules and some TAS books from DriveThru.

Yeah, that's not a bad way to go. Honestly, there are genuine improvements in MgT2 over 1, its just I like having lots of books with lots of fun stuff in them. Its a bit like cooking, you want a lot of seasonings available... but you may not want all of them at once.  MgT 1 is a full spice rack, and MgT2 is canned sauce? I dunno, I think I sort of lost the thread of that metaphor before the end...

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1111869Why is this a question or issue?

People tend to stick with the edition they had when they started tabletop gaming. Classic Traveller is 1st-gen OSR stuff. More for the index card gamer.

Quote from: Spike;1111870Yeah, that's not a bad way to go. Honestly, there are genuine improvements in MgT2 over 1, its just I like having lots of books with lots of fun stuff in them. Its a bit like cooking, you want a lot of seasonings available... but you may not want all of them at once.  MgT 1 is a full spice rack, and MgT2 is canned sauce? I dunno, I think I sort of lost the thread of that metaphor before the end...

I'm not a fan of the current writer for the MgT2 books from Mongoose. I much prefer the books written by Gareth Hanrahan.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1111875I'm not a fan of the current writer for the MgT2 books from Mongoose. I much prefer the books written by Gareth Hanrahan.

I'm not sure what's been put out that you would be talking about... from what I can see MgT2 is very thin on the ground except for a bunch of adventures, some (Drinax and SotA) are just reskins of MgT1 adventures.

MgT1 however, has 12 god damn career splats (complete with interesting gear, mini-games, and STUFF galore (even if you never touch the actual careers in the book..), such as rules for addiction in Dilletante, the 'run your own company' in Merchant Prince and so on... without even mentioning the useful non-career supplements (Robot comes to mind) which often included great ideas on how to make your own setting out of them.

I mean: We are agreeing here, in the general sense. Its the specific comment that I'm not quite understanding.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1111866I would love to see some YouTube videos about that RPG.

Sadly I don't get to run it much these days, and I really don't do videos.  I've written about it a few times.  I suppose I could write about it and read a script and make a video but I'm not really sure why anyone would bother watching a video when they could just read the script.

Anyhow

So SPAM as it is known is based on the Rolemaster Standard System which integrates about 600 skills into a framework where each category of skill can be developed and each skill in the category can be developed independently.  Personally this is the very best related skill / default system.  The unskilled penalties are a bit harsh at -15 and -15 but one rank eliminates those and the first rank is cheapest.  Generally you can buy two ranks in a skill and category each level but the second rank costs more.  Ranks give a bonus that diminishes every ten ranks but for the first ten ranks skills give you +3 and categories give you +2.  RMSS integrates a system of advantages and disadvantages with the cost of an advantage being reduced by taking a flaw or rolling it randomly.  It's usually a bad idea to roll randomly.  Who wants a barbarian axeman with weak wrists.

The core mechanic is d100 open ended + total skill bonus with break points for exceptional results.  Generally you need 110 total to fully succeed in a task.  The weapon tables cross index the type of armour with the attack roll and each weapon has its own table.  The criticals for ballistic, blaster, laser, and plasma weapons are significantly more deadly than those for slash, krush, and puncture.  But not to worry, the medical tech is up to the task and a good medical android is always a wise investment.

Robots and androids are handled better than any other system I can think of.  You pick systems and total a cost for them, with various ratings capping out based on Tech Level.  However, sentient androids are playable characters and you can also work out character point totals.  Robots can be programmed or trained but training is cheaper when you want high levels of skills so most androids have a base programming skill package and then develop skills just like other characters.  There are rules for upgrading and transferring to a new body.  Which is good because the common naval androids are built by the lowest bidder.

Vehicles are designed by totalling up the volume, mass, and cost of components in a system that's not much more complex that Classic Traveller Book 2.  It's functional and it works.  ICE opted to keep the detail level on ships pretty basic.  Construction Armour Type, Hull Points, Speed, Offensive Bonus (mainly from computer targeting), Defensive Bonus (mainly from shields) and weapon mounts are really all you need for ship to ship combat.  There's a lovely table for randomizing or hiring crews that makes it very expensive to hire the best of the best of the best.  The crew rules can also be used to create infantry units.  There are vehicle attack and critical tables.  You'll want to download the revised tables as they make a lot more sense.

The setting is a bit thin but sets up the races fighting on both sides of a major war which is nice when you want the PCs to do infiltration missions.  The races are somewhat generic animal people though they have some fun hooks.  I think the worst race are the Valesians who are barely sentient velociraptors.  I like the race concepts but the stat bonuses are too extreme for my liking.  Even so the setting is easy to explain and easy to get adventuring in.  The Jeronian Empire is rolling over the Inter Steller Confederation which has opted to hand out letters of marque to independent operators in an attempt to disrupt enemy supply lines.  If you've got a ship they'll bolt a mark ten laser to your hull and you can go off raiding enemy shipping.  There's more hooks to it than that.  The pacifist bear people are turning violent and have overthrown the Jeronian empire.  AIs are dying if they log into the sensenet.  The telepathic bugs might be playing both sides of the war to their own benefit.  The noble wolf guys are flocking to a bombed out world hoping to die in a noble lost cause.  The lion guys are only too happy to be fighting a war and hope it doesn't end any too soon.  Oh well, like I say it's a bit thin and a bit too closed to other plot lines but there are also tools for doing your own races and setting.  I converted one of my own and got it published on the Guild Companion online magazine before it kind died out.

The system is a bit much but it's very nuanced and rewarding.  It's also easier to teach than GURPS as just standing there swinging your sword isn't a suicide tactic.

I've only run one short campaign and a couple abortive sessions though.  I did run a number of long RMSS campaigns.   I'm afraid it's always easier to sell people on fantasy.

Quote from: Spike;1111876I mean: We are agreeing here, in the general sense. Its the specific comment that I'm not quite understanding.

Mongoose used to have a game writing staff. Now they have just one person doing all their writing. Their 2nd edition of Drinax was good, because Gareth Hanrahan wrote all the stuff that 2nd edition borrowed from 1st edition. Martin J. Dougherty is the guy writing for Mongoose Traveller now. I don't care for his style. GURPS Traveller had its Lorenverse. MgT2 has its Martinverse.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1111875People tend to stick with the edition they had when they started tabletop gaming. Classic Traveller is 1st-gen OSR stuff. More for the index card gamer.

No, they don't. People tend to shift to the newest versions of whatever. If there was even a shred of truth in what you're saying, the audience of each new edition would be smaller than the last. And classic Traveller isn't OSR. That "R" at the end? It means something.

Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1111598If you backed the first T5 kickstarter and got the god awful PoS of a book you might understand...

Actually, I agree with some of your points, e.g. the errata issue, but I don't get the same reaction you do. I was a beta stage buyer of the first version and I agree the book was not a great product by modern professional standards (if those are what we're comparing to), although it had some good ideas in it. Was it the best fifty quid or whatever I'd spent on gaming product? - definitely not.

But I don't think delivering an overall disappointing product makes someone a "rip-off artist". Miller's reputation is generally pretty good I think. I've personally benefited from great customer service from him.

Quote from: David Johansen;1111645So, I find the 5.0 book forgivable.  Marc was sick and rushed it out because he didn't want to fail to deliver if things went wrong.

...

I sympathize with Marc but man he's disappointed me again and again and again.  Consider this, my favorite edition of Traveller is T4.

I thought I was the only one who liked T4! I really like the core book - I think it oozes Traveller flavour. I can appreciate the Chris Foss art for what it is, even if some of it doesn't match my mental image of Traveller. Emperor's Arsenal and Central Supply Catalogue were great products. The aliens book was pretty good too and a welcome change from the usual races. But the Milieu-0 setting was underdeveloped and poorly presented, and there were some annoying cut corners, like, one of the intro adventures in the core book is a Classic Trav retread and they didn't even bother to adapt it for the new setting.

So, I got on when they first announced T5 and it was $30 and going to be out in 3 months.  Three to five years later I got the CD.  So this is an ongoing problem with T5.  It's a massive undertaking and Marc is just one guy with a lot of other stuff going on.  And he's very old and sick and stuff.  I think it was the 5.09 upgrade that mostly made new problems or made things worse that just really soured me.  I have seen the 5.1 combat and it's better.  I think they patched the issue where Rogues with a 12 in one stat could just make huge schemes and never fail and just raking in resource unit schemes.  5.09 patched the Status 20 nobles.  It's getting there.

Quote from: Pat;1111887No, they don't. People tend to shift to the newest versions of whatever. If there was even a shred of truth in what you're saying, the audience of each new edition would be smaller than the last. And classic Traveller isn't OSR. That "R" at the end? It means something.

Buying each edition iteration does not equate to playing the latest edition. Two different things. OSR is any RPG that is 1st-gen is all. Doesn't matter what its publishing date is. OSR these days is pretty much open source rules, copy/pasted from original sources. Very few OSR games on the market are original games. Most have the franchise erased from them.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1111988Buying each edition iteration does not equate to playing the latest edition. Two different things. OSR is any RPG that is 1st-gen is all. Doesn't matter what its publishing date is. OSR these days is pretty much open source rules, copy/pasted from original sources. Very few OSR games on the market are original games. Most have the franchise erased from them.

That's just false. Most people move to new editions, the whole point of the OSR is that it runs against that overwhelmingly prevailing tendency. And while certain terms like retro-clone have become debased over time, that doesn't apply to OSR. The OSR is a modern movement, not any old game.

Though this is a distraction from the main point of the thread, so I'm going to drop it. But your opinion is that of a vanishingly small minority, and distorts the ideas beyond recognition.

Quote from: Pat;1111995But your opinion is that of a vanishingly small minority, and distorts the ideas beyond recognition.

Just like when 2+2 used to equal 4. You have a YouTube channel, Pat, about RPGs? We can debate there if you want.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1111996Just like when 2+2 used to equal 4. You have a YouTube channel, Pat, about RPGs? We can debate there if you want.

So this was just a ploy to get more views on your youtube channel?

Damn, that is sad.

Saw the boxed game at a store today, next to all the VtM boxed stuff. Someone within a 50-mile radius will probably buy it.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1111882Mongoose used to have a game writing staff. Now they have just one person doing all their writing. Their 2nd edition of Drinax was good, because Gareth Hanrahan wrote all the stuff that 2nd edition borrowed from 1st edition. Martin J. Dougherty is the guy writing for Mongoose Traveller now. I don't care for his style. GURPS Traveller had its Lorenverse. MgT2 has its Martinverse.

I think it great that Martin is writing for MgT2. Outside of the core rules being mostly a retread of 1e, I felt the the items I picked up were worth the money, like Rifts, and looking forward to seeing more. I always liked his work in the past and glad he is back writing Traveller.

Quote from: Pat;1111887No, they don't. People tend to shift to the newest versions of whatever. If there was even a shred of truth in what you're saying, the audience of each new edition would be smaller than the last. And classic Traveller isn't OSR. That "R" at the end? It means something.

As an aside, the Traveller community has its own OSR-like thread now in the form of Cepheus. It will be interesting to see where it goes in the long run.