I would like to see any Traveller 5.10 unboxing videos on YouTube, if there are some posted now that the slipcases are shipping.
Pretty sure anyone clicking on the thread was expecting to see a video, not just a request for a one. Hopefully a video can be added to the thread soon!
Quote from: The_Shadow;1111510Pretty sure anyone clicking on the thread was expecting to see a video, not just a request for a one. Hopefully a video can be added to the thread soon!
I was expecting to see a video and to laugh at the poor sod who gave money to that rip off artist again.
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=Traveller+5.10+Unboxing+Video&s=g
Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1111532I was expecting to see a video and to laugh at the poor sod who gave money to that rip off artist again.
WTF are you talking about?
Quote from: Marchand;1111544WTF are you talking about?
If you backed the first T5 kickstarter and got the god awful PoS of a book you might understand. If you spent any time of the CotI forums where it was banning offense to point out just how bad T5 was you might have a sour taste for the whole thing. If you saw the growing pile of errata for the 5.10 books (which went to print before anyone had a chance to check for errors) you'd likely feel like it was another money grab.
Hell the backers of the first Kickstarter are still waiting for the Player's book that was promised as part of it.
He tried to get out of sending the deck plans to backers saying that unless you asked for your physical copies he was just going to assume that the PDF was good enough (even though physical copies were part of the pledge level).
He canceled the web page listing all the backers just because.
And lets just look at the errata history.
Launched a Beta where people paid for T5. That went on for several years.
Then did the first kickstarter. And after a couple of years released the first errata update T 5.09 which added over 100 pages to correct issues and was only the first half of errata.
Instead of releasing the final errata he runs a new kickstarter and holds the updated PDFs until after he's collected all the money from this new run.
Then prints the books before anyone has had a chance to go over the books (due to size this time he broke it into 3 books) to make sure that everything finally worked.
And if you backed the 1st kickstarter or were a beta guy there is a section of CotI that you can see the growing pile. If you are not one of these you are blocked from seeing it.
So, I find the 5.0 book forgivable. Marc was sick and rushed it out because he didn't want to fail to deliver if things went wrong.
The 5.09 combat revision was a disaster and took over a year to come out. Combat needed about 1 page of clarification and explanation. 2 if you wanted to fix the melee weapons so antlers weren't the ultimate anti-vehicular weapon. Pen = [C1] on a critter with [C1] = 5d? That's an average of 17.5 dice with armour divided by two. Really the armour / 2 for pen damage isn't in the 5.0 rules but pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
5.0 is a great book full of ideas with an almost infinite number of unplayable problems. Believe me, I've tried to run 5.0 and 5.09 a lot and my players do not love me for it.
I have hope for 5.1 but at the same time, I wasn't going to back the kickstarter when shipping to Canada was $70.
I sympathize with Marc but man he's disappointed me again and again and again. Consider this, my favorite edition of Traveller is T4.
Meh. I has Mongoose Traveller (and after months and months of whingeing I am almost 100% certain that I prefer MT1 to MT2.). T4 is on the shelf and remains virtually untouched because she is a haughty and untouchable bitch, so why would I waste time chasing after T5.*?
Maybe its a personal thing, but Marc seems to approach Traveller from an esoteric rather than pragmatic standpoint. Or he simply is bad at organizing information. His babies do better in other hands.
Quote from: Spike;1111680Meh. I has Mongoose Traveller (and after months and months of whingeing I am almost 100% certain that I prefer MT1 to MT2.)
I've replaced by MgT1 core rulebook with the MgT2 core rulebook. I have all the MgT1 books. And no books for MgT2 other than the core rules and some TAS books from DriveThru.
So, personally Spacemaster Privateers is my favorite sf ruleset. The RMSS training package system evolves into a lifepath system in it and the weapon tables do a lot to make weapon verses armour interactions interesting, though I'll admit, I'd have done the armour types differently. Still, it makes T5 look well organized and has its own share of errors and errata.
Lately I've been looking into FGU's Space Opera and it's pretty darn cool but it's so old that it was all type written and it's lots of small text and things like the rules for throwing and catching are right in the middle of character creation. It's not as complex as some people seem to think but there is some math. Sometimes in places where you wonder why it's there. But the whole thing is built on top of the Space Marines miniatures game which is even older but wouldn't be particularly alien to anyone who's played Warhammer. But yes it predates Warhammer 40000 by about ten years. Also, 'Powered Armour A' is the Assault Suit from Heinlein's Star Ship Troopers, complete with 'Y racks' loaded with nukes. There are 'Continental Siege Units' from Bolo and hover tanks straight out of Starship Troopers as well. Being as old as it is there aren't many walkers or mecha. Just some tripods driven by cephelopods.
So, what's my point? Traveller's appeal has always been its simplicity and elegance. TNE forgot that and flopped. T4 was a much cleaner core than T5 but had too many rough edges and seemed to believe that armour would always outstrip the effectiveness of weapons. It worked better than T5 because half dice difficulty modifiers are way more elegant than whole dice difficulty levels combined with laundry lists of modifiers. T4 flopped because internet hate was new and powerful. People were raging about half dice and Chris Foss and Larry Elmore art. Admittedly, the bad editing was an issue and sometimes things went to press before they were usable. Also, Milieu 0 was dull and lifeless which is weird since it brought exploration and uncertainty back to travelling. I think it played well enough but it wasn't a thrilling read.
The thing about T5 is that the scope and completeness of the thing is amazing. You can muster out with secrets and land grands and there's tables for random university names and while it looks terrifying most of the maker subsystems are pretty simple to use even if they can produce silly results sometimes. I believe that when it matures (hopefully it's at least playable now) T5 will be very worth having. Even if the wait was absurd.
For the benefit of the people whining about the errata, that got incredibly screwed by the untimely death of the Traveller Errata's chief worker, Don McKinney. Want to blame someone about that? Bitch at God.
As far as the unfulfilled Kickstarter, have you contacted Kickstarter about it? Have you tried to contact Marc Miller?
Been contacting Miller for years. Zero response through kickstarter, facebook, and his company's web site.
And why the hell should we blame god. The only one to blame is the incompetent sod who released/sold a book that ended up with 100s of pages of errata.
You guys are making me glad that I am more of a Stars Without Number Fan.
Quote from: David Johansen;1111708So, personally Spacemaster Privateers is my favorite sf ruleset.
I would love to see some YouTube videos about that RPG.
Quote from: David Johansen;1111708I believe that when it matures (hopefully it's at least playable now) T5 will be very worth having.
I've seen mock-ups of the T5.1 Players Guide books. They are 6x9 softcover, I believe. I'm curious to see a video of that one when it's shipped also.
Why is this a question or issue?
So many different issues of Traveller, FFS even Hero and GURPS, but he got it right the first time, and in the first 3 books, for that matter. All the rest is just to please nagging fans who barely ever play.
https://talestoastound.wordpress.com/traveller-out-of-the-box/
(https://talestoastound.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/45b96a0a8845ed78b2958bc87f1b6b58_large.jpg)
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1111685I've replaced by MgT1 core rulebook with the MgT2 core rulebook. I have all the MgT1 books. And no books for MgT2 other than the core rules and some TAS books from DriveThru.
Yeah, that's not a bad way to go. Honestly, there are genuine improvements in MgT2 over 1, its just I like having lots of books with lots of fun stuff in them. Its a bit like cooking, you want a lot of seasonings available... but you may not want all of them at once. MgT 1 is a full spice rack, and MgT2 is canned sauce? I dunno, I think I sort of lost the thread of that metaphor before the end...
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1111869Why is this a question or issue?
People tend to stick with the edition they had when they started tabletop gaming. Classic Traveller is 1st-gen OSR stuff. More for the index card gamer.
Quote from: Spike;1111870Yeah, that's not a bad way to go. Honestly, there are genuine improvements in MgT2 over 1, its just I like having lots of books with lots of fun stuff in them. Its a bit like cooking, you want a lot of seasonings available... but you may not want all of them at once. MgT 1 is a full spice rack, and MgT2 is canned sauce? I dunno, I think I sort of lost the thread of that metaphor before the end...
I'm not a fan of the current writer for the MgT2 books from Mongoose. I much prefer the books written by Gareth Hanrahan.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1111875I'm not a fan of the current writer for the MgT2 books from Mongoose. I much prefer the books written by Gareth Hanrahan.
I'm not sure what's been put out that you would be talking about... from what I can see MgT2 is very thin on the ground except for a bunch of adventures, some (Drinax and SotA) are just reskins of MgT1 adventures.
MgT1 however, has 12 god damn career splats (complete with interesting gear, mini-games, and STUFF galore (even if you never touch the actual careers in the book..), such as rules for addiction in Dilletante, the 'run your own company' in Merchant Prince and so on... without even mentioning the useful non-career supplements (Robot comes to mind) which often included great ideas on how to make your own setting out of them.
I mean: We are agreeing here, in the general sense. Its the specific comment that I'm not quite understanding.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1111866I would love to see some YouTube videos about that RPG.
Sadly I don't get to run it much these days, and I really don't do videos. I've written about it a few times. I suppose I could write about it and read a script and make a video but I'm not really sure why anyone would bother watching a video when they could just read the script.
Anyhow
So SPAM as it is known is based on the Rolemaster Standard System which integrates about 600 skills into a framework where each category of skill can be developed and each skill in the category can be developed independently. Personally this is the very best related skill / default system. The unskilled penalties are a bit harsh at -15 and -15 but one rank eliminates those and the first rank is cheapest. Generally you can buy two ranks in a skill and category each level but the second rank costs more. Ranks give a bonus that diminishes every ten ranks but for the first ten ranks skills give you +3 and categories give you +2. RMSS integrates a system of advantages and disadvantages with the cost of an advantage being reduced by taking a flaw or rolling it randomly. It's usually a bad idea to roll randomly. Who wants a barbarian axeman with weak wrists.
The core mechanic is d100 open ended + total skill bonus with break points for exceptional results. Generally you need 110 total to fully succeed in a task. The weapon tables cross index the type of armour with the attack roll and each weapon has its own table. The criticals for ballistic, blaster, laser, and plasma weapons are significantly more deadly than those for slash, krush, and puncture. But not to worry, the medical tech is up to the task and a good medical android is always a wise investment.
Robots and androids are handled better than any other system I can think of. You pick systems and total a cost for them, with various ratings capping out based on Tech Level. However, sentient androids are playable characters and you can also work out character point totals. Robots can be programmed or trained but training is cheaper when you want high levels of skills so most androids have a base programming skill package and then develop skills just like other characters. There are rules for upgrading and transferring to a new body. Which is good because the common naval androids are built by the lowest bidder.
Vehicles are designed by totalling up the volume, mass, and cost of components in a system that's not much more complex that Classic Traveller Book 2. It's functional and it works. ICE opted to keep the detail level on ships pretty basic. Construction Armour Type, Hull Points, Speed, Offensive Bonus (mainly from computer targeting), Defensive Bonus (mainly from shields) and weapon mounts are really all you need for ship to ship combat. There's a lovely table for randomizing or hiring crews that makes it very expensive to hire the best of the best of the best. The crew rules can also be used to create infantry units. There are vehicle attack and critical tables. You'll want to download the revised tables as they make a lot more sense.
The setting is a bit thin but sets up the races fighting on both sides of a major war which is nice when you want the PCs to do infiltration missions. The races are somewhat generic animal people though they have some fun hooks. I think the worst race are the Valesians who are barely sentient velociraptors. I like the race concepts but the stat bonuses are too extreme for my liking. Even so the setting is easy to explain and easy to get adventuring in. The Jeronian Empire is rolling over the Inter Steller Confederation which has opted to hand out letters of marque to independent operators in an attempt to disrupt enemy supply lines. If you've got a ship they'll bolt a mark ten laser to your hull and you can go off raiding enemy shipping. There's more hooks to it than that. The pacifist bear people are turning violent and have overthrown the Jeronian empire. AIs are dying if they log into the sensenet. The telepathic bugs might be playing both sides of the war to their own benefit. The noble wolf guys are flocking to a bombed out world hoping to die in a noble lost cause. The lion guys are only too happy to be fighting a war and hope it doesn't end any too soon. Oh well, like I say it's a bit thin and a bit too closed to other plot lines but there are also tools for doing your own races and setting. I converted one of my own and got it published on the Guild Companion online magazine before it kind died out.
The system is a bit much but it's very nuanced and rewarding. It's also easier to teach than GURPS as just standing there swinging your sword isn't a suicide tactic.
I've only run one short campaign and a couple abortive sessions though. I did run a number of long RMSS campaigns. I'm afraid it's always easier to sell people on fantasy.
Quote from: Spike;1111876I mean: We are agreeing here, in the general sense. Its the specific comment that I'm not quite understanding.
Mongoose used to have a game writing staff. Now they have just one person doing all their writing. Their 2nd edition of Drinax was good, because Gareth Hanrahan wrote all the stuff that 2nd edition borrowed from 1st edition. Martin J. Dougherty is the guy writing for Mongoose Traveller now. I don't care for his style. GURPS Traveller had its Lorenverse. MgT2 has its Martinverse.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1111875People tend to stick with the edition they had when they started tabletop gaming. Classic Traveller is 1st-gen OSR stuff. More for the index card gamer.
No, they don't. People tend to shift to the newest versions of whatever. If there was even a shred of truth in what you're saying, the audience of each new edition would be smaller than the last. And classic Traveller isn't OSR. That "R" at the end? It means something.
Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1111598If you backed the first T5 kickstarter and got the god awful PoS of a book you might understand...
Actually, I agree with some of your points, e.g. the errata issue, but I don't get the same reaction you do. I was a beta stage buyer of the first version and I agree the book was not a great product by modern professional standards (if those are what we're comparing to), although it had some good ideas in it. Was it the best fifty quid or whatever I'd spent on gaming product? - definitely not.
But I don't think delivering an overall disappointing product makes someone a "rip-off artist". Miller's reputation is generally pretty good I think. I've personally benefited from great customer service from him.
Quote from: David Johansen;1111645So, I find the 5.0 book forgivable. Marc was sick and rushed it out because he didn't want to fail to deliver if things went wrong.
...
I sympathize with Marc but man he's disappointed me again and again and again. Consider this, my favorite edition of Traveller is T4.
I thought I was the only one who liked T4! I really like the core book - I think it oozes Traveller flavour. I can appreciate the Chris Foss art for what it is, even if some of it doesn't match my mental image of Traveller. Emperor's Arsenal and Central Supply Catalogue were great products. The aliens book was pretty good too and a welcome change from the usual races. But the Milieu-0 setting was underdeveloped and poorly presented, and there were some annoying cut corners, like, one of the intro adventures in the core book is a Classic Trav retread and they didn't even bother to adapt it for the new setting.
So, I got on when they first announced T5 and it was $30 and going to be out in 3 months. Three to five years later I got the CD. So this is an ongoing problem with T5. It's a massive undertaking and Marc is just one guy with a lot of other stuff going on. And he's very old and sick and stuff. I think it was the 5.09 upgrade that mostly made new problems or made things worse that just really soured me. I have seen the 5.1 combat and it's better. I think they patched the issue where Rogues with a 12 in one stat could just make huge schemes and never fail and just raking in resource unit schemes. 5.09 patched the Status 20 nobles. It's getting there.
Quote from: Pat;1111887No, they don't. People tend to shift to the newest versions of whatever. If there was even a shred of truth in what you're saying, the audience of each new edition would be smaller than the last. And classic Traveller isn't OSR. That "R" at the end? It means something.
Buying each edition iteration does not equate to playing the latest edition. Two different things. OSR is any RPG that is 1st-gen is all. Doesn't matter what its publishing date is. OSR these days is pretty much open source rules, copy/pasted from original sources. Very few OSR games on the market are original games. Most have the franchise erased from them.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1111988Buying each edition iteration does not equate to playing the latest edition. Two different things. OSR is any RPG that is 1st-gen is all. Doesn't matter what its publishing date is. OSR these days is pretty much open source rules, copy/pasted from original sources. Very few OSR games on the market are original games. Most have the franchise erased from them.
That's just false. Most people move to new editions, the whole point of the OSR is that it runs against that overwhelmingly prevailing tendency. And while certain terms like retro-clone have become debased over time, that doesn't apply to OSR. The OSR is a modern movement, not any old game.
Though this is a distraction from the main point of the thread, so I'm going to drop it. But your opinion is that of a vanishingly small minority, and distorts the ideas beyond recognition.
Quote from: Pat;1111995But your opinion is that of a vanishingly small minority, and distorts the ideas beyond recognition.
Just like when 2+2 used to equal 4. You have a YouTube channel, Pat, about RPGs? We can debate there if you want.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1111996Just like when 2+2 used to equal 4. You have a YouTube channel, Pat, about RPGs? We can debate there if you want.
So this was just a ploy to get more views on your youtube channel?
Damn, that is sad.
Saw the boxed game at a store today, next to all the VtM boxed stuff. Someone within a 50-mile radius will probably buy it.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1111882Mongoose used to have a game writing staff. Now they have just one person doing all their writing. Their 2nd edition of Drinax was good, because Gareth Hanrahan wrote all the stuff that 2nd edition borrowed from 1st edition. Martin J. Dougherty is the guy writing for Mongoose Traveller now. I don't care for his style. GURPS Traveller had its Lorenverse. MgT2 has its Martinverse.
I think it great that Martin is writing for MgT2. Outside of the core rules being mostly a retread of 1e, I felt the the items I picked up were worth the money, like Rifts, and looking forward to seeing more. I always liked his work in the past and glad he is back writing Traveller.
Quote from: Pat;1111887No, they don't. People tend to shift to the newest versions of whatever. If there was even a shred of truth in what you're saying, the audience of each new edition would be smaller than the last. And classic Traveller isn't OSR. That "R" at the end? It means something.
As an aside, the Traveller community has its own OSR-like thread now in the form of Cepheus. It will be interesting to see where it goes in the long run.
I suspect Cepheus will be around for a long time to come because it is more open to creator owned content. It came into existence because Mongoose changed their OGL.
Quote from: David Johansen;1113539I suspect Cepheus will be around for a long time to come because it is more open to creator owned content. It came into existence because Mongoose changed their OGL.
Anything put on the Internet is there forever pretty much.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1113557Anything put on the Internet is there forever pretty much.
You wish! Stuff vanishes forever with appalling regularity and the various archive sites are just not able to cover everything for various reasons.
Back on topic.
What are the notable changes, if any, between Traveller, and this T5?
approximately 600 page difference between the core of Classic Traveller and T5.XX.
Classic Traveller - pretty much fully functional and go to go from the start.
T5 - uneditied mess with the various subsystems unable to function together making it a pile of components and not a full game.
T5.09 - add about 100 pages and make it even less clear how anything is suppose to work.
T5.10 - run a second kickstarter to release it now as 3 massive rule books and get paid a second time for what you promised the first time.
Quote from: Spike;1111680Maybe its a personal thing, but Marc seems to approach Traveller from an esoteric rather than pragmatic standpoint. Or he simply is bad at organizing information. His babies do better in other hands.
I went to uni and wrote essays. With every essay there comes a point where you go, "well, that seems good now." But there's always that nagging voice, "but if I just mess with it more, it'll be
perfect." And then you do, and what was good is now a complete fucking mess.
If you're smart you stop when it's good. If you're dumb, or if say a bunch of fanboys nag you for decades to mess with it, you may give in to that voice of stupid and start messing with it.
Classic Traveller. Runequest 1st edition. Call of Cthulhu 1e. AD&D1e. GURPS1e. Generally, they got it right the first time. Then they started messing with it. Partly it was trying to make it perfect, and partly it was the fanboys harassing them. And before you know it, your game starts looking like a lengthy convoluted self-contradictory mess like taxation law.
Quote from: Pat;1111995That's just false. Most people move to new editions, the whole point of the OSR is that it runs against that overwhelmingly prevailing tendency.
Whether current players move to new editions or stick with old is less important than that
new players tend to go for
new editions - simply because that's what is on the game store shelves.
Many people in these discussions imagine that there's this fixed number of gamers who were made in the 1980s or something and nobody new has come in since except by their beckoning, and there are movements within this fixed group. It's not true, and is mostly just a story us old grognards tell ourselves so we feel relevant. Every year some old gamers stop gaming, and some new kids wander in and generally they find their own way without any help from the old grognards. There is, of course, mixing between these layers.
Most old players play old editions. Some new players do, too. But most new players play new editions. And new players are being made every year. But the person who has never played before does not pony up $200 cash on a kickstarter for a new edition of an old game they never heard of - they just grab the latest edition of D&D at their FLGS.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1115944I went to uni and wrote essays. With every essay there comes a point where you go, "well, that seems good now." But there's always that nagging voice, "but if I just mess with it more, it'll be perfect." And then you do, and what was good is now a complete fucking mess.
If you're smart you stop when it's good. If you're dumb, or if say a bunch of fanboys nag you for decades to mess with it, you may give in to that voice of stupid and start messing with it.
Classic Traveller. Runequest 1st edition. Call of Cthulhu 1e. AD&D1e. GURPS1e. Generally, they got it right the first time. Then they started messing with it. Partly it was trying to make it perfect, and partly it was the fanboys harassing them. And before you know it, your game starts looking like a lengthy convoluted self-contradictory mess like taxation law.
I dunno.....
Mongoose Traveller 1st Edition made some improvements and is pretty damned good, I'd put it neck-and-neck with Classic Traveller.
Quote from: David Johansen;1111708Lately I've been looking into FGU's Space Opera and it's pretty darn cool but it's so old that it was all type written and it's lots of small text and things like the rules for throwing and catching are right in the middle of character creation. It's not as complex as some people seem to think but there is some math. Sometimes in places where you wonder why it's there. But the whole thing is built on top of the Space Marines miniatures game which is even older but wouldn't be particularly alien to anyone who's played Warhammer.
I have attempted to tame Space Opera with resolution charts and a character creation step guide.
Here are the links; Space Opera Character Creation Step-by-Step (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K35tgw2-I4Qrf0BogARDQ_zoJ86gCNTf/view), Space Opera Resolution Charts (https://drive.google.com/file/d/16HpeBr1FYyJSThr4op0c0oqceDiwkGTn/view), Space Opera Combat Charts (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TZLoqv49fQ2qh7Z6k4viWuaohr34FVsh/view).
I will be running a pulpish adventure at Ghengis Con, Denver in two months.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1115945Whether current players move to new editions or stick with old is less important than that new players tend to go for new editions - simply because that's what is on the game store shelves.
Many people in these discussions imagine that there's this fixed number of gamers who were made in the 1980s or something and nobody new has come in since except by their beckoning, and there are movements within this fixed group. It's not true, and is mostly just a story us old grognards tell ourselves so we feel relevant. Every year some old gamers stop gaming, and some new kids wander in and generally they find their own way without any help from the old grognards. There is, of course, mixing between these layers.
That's nonsense. It's probably a safe bet that nobody has ever said the number of people playing RPGs has remained constant since the 1980s. It's a sure bet that anyone inclined to make such a claim will be considered crazy if they voice that opinion. You're just making up things to justify your preconceptions, without realizing how divorced from reality your fabrications really are.
Now that we are 20 years in on the Open Game License, 13 years in on the OSR, nearly 5 years in on Cepheus. The evidence is that there are enough folks that are willing to do what it takes to use the new methods to change the dynamics of how old editions and new editions wax and wane in the hobby and industry. That older editions have been sustaining their audience over the years.
Quote from: Pat;1115953That's nonsense.
You are a sad and bitter little man. You must be American, and probably work in IT. I'm willing to bet you don't bring snacks to game sessions, or if you do, don't share them.
Is it not broadly-true that new players tend to play new editions?
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1115977You are a sad and bitter little man. You must be American, and probably work in IT. I'm willing to bet you don't bring snacks to game sessions, or if you do, don't share them.
What the hell? I pointed out your broad assertions about a large group are a complete fantasy that couldn't possibly by true, and in reply you make up an awful set of ridiculous fantasies about me?
That's creepy as fuck, you miserable piece of shit.
Quote from: estar;1115956Now that we are 20 years in on the Open Game License, 13 years in on the OSR, nearly 5 years in on Cepheus. The evidence is that there are enough folks that are willing to do what it takes to use the new methods to change the dynamics of how old editions and new editions wax and wane in the hobby and industry. That older editions have been sustaining their audience over the years.
Guygax said it best. Each new edition if it is not just mostly cosmetic and small rules tweaks, will lose you upwards of half your customer base. The bigger the changes the more you lose. Possibly exceeding the 50% mark if you really botch it. Lookin at you 4e! This is in part why 3e went over so well. It did not change the base game so heavily and it carried over alot of stuff from 2e near verbatim. It mostly presented stuff in an new way and added in a new skill and feat system. WOTC took Gary's advice to a fair degree and it worked. 20 years on and 3e is still fairly popular.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1115944I went to uni and wrote essays. With every essay there comes a point where you go, "well, that seems good now." But there's always that nagging voice, "but if I just mess with it more, it'll be perfect." And then you do, and what was good is now a complete fucking mess.
If you're smart you stop when it's good. If you're dumb, or if say a bunch of fanboys nag you for decades to mess with it, you may give in to that voice of stupid and start messing with it.
Classic Traveller. Runequest 1st edition. Call of Cthulhu 1e. AD&D1e. GURPS1e. Generally, they got it right the first time. Then they started messing with it. Partly it was trying to make it perfect, and partly it was the fanboys harassing them. And before you know it, your game starts looking like a lengthy convoluted self-contradictory mess like taxation law.
I think I agree with your basic premise, but its awfully... shallow?
There may be a sort of life cycle here, where a game is designed, then 'tinkered with' until it becomes a kludgy mess, then we often (not always) see another edition that cleans up the mess and gives a refined, improved take on the initial premise. Naturally, tastes may vary, and quite often that initial idea isn't the 'best iteration' anyway. You even list AD&D 1e, which isn't even the initial hot take on D&D, while I favor Mongoose Traveller, because while i haven't played the Classic LBB traveller (I do have the ship book, acquired under anecdote worthy circumstances...), from what I've seen that step back, that initial 'essay' isn't the better take... though as a caveat I do think there might be some strengths over MongT in the fulfillment of the initial vision.
Hmmm... so we can extend your essay metaphor a little. Sometimes a New Edition is more like a re-write after a decent editor has given it a red markup.
Honestly GURPS second edition was a huge improvement over first and I'm a big fan of first.
Quote from: David Johansen;1116587Honestly GURPS second edition was a huge improvement over first and I'm a big fan of first.
I didn't comment, since I started with 2e, and can't think of a significant difference between 2 and 3 that I ever noticed (so much so that I was shocked to realize 4e was, in fact, 4...)
GURPS 2nd edition added cardboard covers to the booklets in the box and corrected some erratta. Third edition changed ranged combat and brought in the speed/range table which gives massive penalties to hit at short ranges. Third edition also integrated many new advantages and skills from world books and added a magic chapter to the core.
[video=youtube;vL4hUeQ-iDs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL4hUeQ-iDs[/youtube]
Quote from: Spike;1116581There may be a sort of life cycle here, where a game is designed, then 'tinkered with' until it becomes a kludgy mess, then we often (not always) see another edition that cleans up the mess and gives a refined, improved take on the initial premise. [...] You even list AD&D 1e
Correct. AD&D1e is a clusterfuck (initiative rules, lol), but it is a
glorious clusterfuck. The writing is engaging, and the ideas all contradict each-other but each of them is cool.
Whereas Traveller 4e, for example, is just a clusterfuck with no glory at all.
And then you get something like Synnibar which was a clusterfuck from edition 1, but it was such a clusterfuck that it outdid the glory. There is an optimal clusterfuck:glory ratio.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1117891There is an optimal clusterfuck:glory ratio.
Maybe FTL:2448. One of the later editions.
I like this Clusterfuck:Glory ratio theory. I also think a 'Traveler 5.10 Unboxing Video' topic needs more unboxing videos. Ideally this culminates into an homage of the classic '98 "Nintendo 64!" children-losing-their-shit Christmas unboxing video. I would like to think Traveler fans have the faintest glimmer of mirth in their bitterest of rpg fandom wars! :D
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1115945Whether current players move to new editions or stick with old is less important than that new players tend to go for new editions - simply because that's what is on the game store shelves.
Many people in these discussions imagine that there's this fixed number of gamers who were made in the 1980s or something and nobody new has come in since except by their beckoning, and there are movements within this fixed group. It's not true, and is mostly just a story us old grognards tell ourselves so we feel relevant. Every year some old gamers stop gaming, and some new kids wander in and generally they find their own way without any help from the old grognards. There is, of course, mixing between these layers.
Most old players play old editions. Some new players do, too. But most new players play new editions. And new players are being made every year. But the person who has never played before does not pony up $200 cash on a kickstarter for a new edition of an old game they never heard of - they just grab the latest edition of D&D at their FLGS.
I think there is an aspect of time and experience as well. Even newer gamers who grab the latest version or RPG over time graduate back to the older editions of a game and there can be a jarring light that goes on as they see the versatility the games used to have while remaining simple. That said, I've seen the opposite - old school gamers embracing the newest version (there were always powergamers). I guess I notice the former more because I appreciate it.
Classic Traveller (whether original or as late as maybe Starter) will probably always remain the best no matter how shiny Mongoose makes it (and RTT2e is beautiful to behold). T5.10 I'm still learning and do not have a firm opinion on. The core aspect of character creation is vastly superior but ultimately creates overly powerful characters unless you house-rule it. Okay, not vastly, but I see it as an improvement; just not enough to change how Classic does it.
Not to worry it's Traveller and a bullet can still kill an overly powerful character.