Quote from: Brendan;1107293Okay.  So would you also agree that its perfectly okay for a GM/DM to decline to allow X-Cards, or consent checklists; and that making this choice isn't a sign of wanting to abuse others?

Yes, absolutely.

Quote from: jhkim;1107295Yes, absolutely.

I'm glad to hear it.

Quote from: jhkim;1107241You're framing it that anyone using an X-card is inherently an aggressor. i.e. If some hippy liberals play with an X-card in their game, they're the aggressor invading your space. I don't agree with that framing. It's possible for either side to be aggressors -- i.e. "all games must use the X-card" or "no games should use the X-card". Both of those are One-True-Wayism.

I am not sure you're reading the context of it all correctly. If some 80s gamers were playing RPGs in which they'd unironically glorify the dictatorship of the proletariate, they wouldn't have been gamers invading my space either, that much is true. However, their doing so would have been part of a broader movement that aggressively sought to push their values onto me and everyone around me. The socialists in the Warsaw Pact back then sought to push their mistaken ideology into any creative endeavour (don't think RPGs were a thing in the East back then though). So, in that sense, it would have been part of a wider push, especially as they talk about it with others and propagate their style of gaming.

Is this an apt analogy though? Well, that depends on if
a) we have highly ideological leftists again, pursuing a certain vision of a better world, that seek to permeate all walks of life (which, btw, would be a fairly totalitarian attitude towards the rest of society) with their new ideology
and
b) the x-card is part of that effort, whether consciously so or not.

Well, you be the judge. I have made no final call with regards to that but in the face of German history in the second part of the 20th century, my suspicions have been raised.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1107359I am not sure you're reading the context of it all correctly.

I think that you're failing to account for a player's agenda versus a character's agenda.  

I'm not a Communist.  I'm also not an Elf.  Either one can be fun to play on a Sunday afternoon.  

Trying to establish what character ACTIONS are uncomfortable for some players is a completely reasonable thing that every single GM worth their salt has been dealing with for a long time.  Recognizing that there are things that don't make you personally uncomfortable that might reasonably make other people uncomfortable is important, and not everyone has a firm grasp on that.  

This may not be the best way, but it's not automatically a bad way.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1107359If some 80s gamers were playing RPGs in which they'd unironically glorify the dictatorship of the proletariate, they wouldn't have been gamers invading my space either, that much is true. However, their doing so would have been part of a broader movement that aggressively sought to push their values onto me and everyone around me. The socialists in the Warsaw Pact back then sought to push their mistaken ideology into any creative endeavour (don't think RPGs were a thing in the East back then though). So, in that sense, it would have been part of a wider push, especially as they talk about it with others and propagate their style of gaming.

Yes, I agree that this is the issue. There are some people who believe that they should police other people's RPG playing, and if their RPGs have themes in support of the wrong politics, then action should be taken to shut down those RPGs. I don't go in for this school of thought, for two reasons:

1) I don't believe that playing RPGs is an effective tool for political change. They may have some impact, but they are less effective than traditional political activity. Thus, my games will passively reflect my beliefs and values, but when I want to make political change in the world, I do it by donating to organizations, going to meetings, and talking about politics rather than anything in how I play RPGs.

2) Even if RPGs were effective, I think it's better to campaign positively rather than negatively. i.e. Rather than railing about how bad RPGs with wrongthink in them are, I think it would be ultimately more effective to demonstrate how cool and fun RPGs with goodthink in them can be.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1107359Is this an apt analogy though? Well, that depends on if
a) we have highly ideological leftists again, pursuing a certain vision of a better world, that seek to permeate all walks of life (which, btw, would be a fairly totalitarian attitude towards the rest of society) with their new ideology
and
b) the x-card is part of that effort, whether consciously so or not.

Particularly if it's not a conscious part of that effort, I question whether attacking use of the X-card is an effective tool against the leftist forces. To take a parallel from my side, I have friends who will spend time attacking the unconscious racism they perceive in different RPGs. I consider this often not just ineffective, but often even counter-productive. Telling someone that they are racist puts them on the defensive, and likely makes them more resistant to the message.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1107284The use of images in this context is on the very edge of the line. Consider this a no-consequence warning to dial it back.

My speech-to-text app malfunctioned that day. Now I have to make a thumbs down on one of your Youtube videos. I will downvote the latest video on How to Work as an RPG Writer, because you talk alot about other stuff in that video, and because you know Varg Vikernes would eat you for breakfast.

The downside isn't that assholes might abuse X cards. The downside is:

A) The emphasis on safety, transgression, and anxiety make it seem as though playing RPGs is some kind of dubious activity run by skeevy weirdos.

B) It rolls out the welcome mat to handwringing scolds who get their sense of self-worth from policing the behaviour of others.

And all to address a 'problem' that's largely fabricated by those same scolds.

Quote from: jhkim;1107429Particularly if it's not a conscious part of that effort, I question whether attacking use of the X-card is an effective tool against the leftist forces. To take a parallel from my side, I have friends who will spend time attacking the unconscious racism they perceive in different RPGs. I consider this often not just ineffective, but often even counter-productive. Telling someone that they are racist puts them on the defensive, and likely makes them more resistant to the message.

Attacking? Who is attacking anything or anyone?

Criticizing on the other hand yes, we've been very critical of this and other similar "safety tools". As for the "unconscious" {insert buzzword here}. It's nothing more than mind reading, whoever uses that is pretending to know what the accused feels/thinks about X.

Session Zero is the solution for the nuggets of trhruth behind the push for control by the puritanical, holier than thou scolds (thanks Haffrung!), paired with the ages old just walk away.

Not all games are for me, nor should they be. For instance some games by Grim Jim or Venger aren't for me. And it's a good thing that those games exist for the people who like those types of games.

Also not al sessions/campaigns are for me, for instance those with a pletora of very special snowflake races for the player to choose from. And it's a good thing those who enjoy it can play like that.

A session of say D6D could also not be for me if it is too similar to those games from Venger and Grim I was talking about. And as a player I have the power to choose not to play or stop playing, but beyond session zero I as a player shouldn't have the power to stop everything with no explanation and make the GM change stuff just because I'm triggered. It's not a psychological session and your therapist will tell you to confront your phobias/triggers not to avoid them.

So, even granting that there are people so traumatized the mere mention of [insert whatever here] sends them in a loop and so utterly stupid as to not warn the GM beforehand, why should they have the power to affect everybody else's fun and make the GM change shit?

Notice the word POWER, if you ask nicely and explain yourself I will accommodate you most of the time. But, if were playing a game called Z-Nation and you come to me (after we started the game) with the tale of you having problems with Zombies because one ate your homework once.... Well snowflake just walk away, nobody is chaining you to the table.

Quote from: jhkim;1107288I disagree with both of these. It's not something I generally use, but I've played a bunch of games with people who use the X-card, and the games have been fine. I have no problem with them.

I suspect you GM a very different kind of game than I do, though.

Quote from: tenbones;1107500I suspect you GM a very different kind of game than I do, though.

Greetings!

Hey Tenbones! I thought I heard Jhkim say before that he has only rarely seen the X-card ever used, then he says that he has played "a bunch of games with people who use the X-card..." Am I remembering it wrong, brother?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Haffrung;1107436The downside isn't that assholes might abuse X cards. The downside is:

A) The emphasis on safety, transgression, and anxiety make it seem as though playing RPGs is some kind of dubious activity run by skeevy weirdos.

B) It rolls out the welcome mat to handwringing scolds who get their sense of self-worth from policing the behaviour of others.

And all to address a 'problem' that's largely fabricated by those same scolds.

This needs to be printed on the back covers of RPG books.

Quote from: SHARK;1107504Hey Tenbones! I thought I heard Jhkim say before that he has only rarely seen the X-card ever used, then he says that he has played "a bunch of games with people who use the X-card..." Am I remembering it wrong, brother?

I said I played a bunch of games where the X-card mechanic was in place. However, there was only one instance when anyone actually invoked the X-card, and that use was pretty perfunctory. So in nearly all the games, the GM puts out the X-card at the start of play, but it's like a fire extinguisher -- there for emergencies but not normally used.

More specifically -- I've played in at least a dozen convention games that have used the X-card, plus a half-dozen sessions of a home FATE game with a particular friend GMing. And I've used it twice as GM, when running the game Bluebeard's Bride at conventions - because in that game the X-card is written into the rules, so it's an expected part of play. The one time I did see it used was when it was invoked by the GM, when a player was in a weird mood and she was describing attacking some enemies in the genitals. The GM touched the card and asked her to back it up. That seems like a token use of it, since the GM could say that anyway, but technically it's a use.

When GMing Bluebeard's Bride, it's a pretty relentless horror game. In my two games so far, I've had one PC death, and a whole lot of pain and torture inflicted on the PCs. It's one of the darkest horror games I've GMed. So I find it really weird for you to say that these games are "Happy Barney Land". Yes, a player could have vetoed some of the pain and torture, but they didn't because they came to play a horror game and enjoyed it.

Any shared space will eventually become completely beholden to the most aggressive faction; this usually works best if the aggression isn't very strong; merely persistent, but never relenting as steps of change are secured until a critical mass is reached.  All that must be done is to keep the other side discussing your actions amongst themselves in lieu of any actions of their own.  The discussion can be entirely disapproving, so long as it remains an abstract response to your concrete iteration.

Unless conventions know for sure that they'll lose support before they're asked to adopt checklists on a DM-choice basis, they'll surely rationalize it as an acceptable compromise.  And it will remain DM-choice for a time.

Quote from: trechriron;1107508This needs to be printed on the back covers of RPG books.

Maybe.

I seem to remember arguing against your advocation of playing in RPG character rape in public. Some stuff is for public consumption and some is for private consumption, and Session Zero coupled with Common Sense is the best way to handle all of the above.

Quote from: jeff37923;1107529Some stuff is for public consumption and some is for private consumption, and Session Zero coupled with Common Sense is the best way to handle all of the above.

Dammit, Jeff.

You need to stop with those completely unrealistic expectations that everyone actually talk among themselves to come up with reasonable parameters...
We're gamers!  We aren't allowed to have a social skill set above that of a 5-year-old.