Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1102377I'm going to warn everybody from the outset. This is going to be a controversial topic with Hero System fans. Because it takes a direct critical view of what some people consider a pillar of the system. It's a full-on roasting of that subject. But I believe it is well deserved.
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Ever Tried to play GURPS?

- Ed C.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1102454You would be hard-pressed to make a weaker version with a Multipower. Very hard-pressed. The difference in the use of a Multipower makes is indeed that extreme.

The powers are weaker as already proven, and a MP Supes wouldn't be able to use them at the same time, while a non MP Supes has the powers at full force and can use them at the same time.

The MP version looks much weaker than the non MP, to anyone without an axe to grind. I'm not even that big of a fan of Hero, especially their 2 pounds of book is one of my gripes. But you're saying that something that would make a weaker Superman is cheating in favor of the weaker Superman. We have a saying here "No me ayudes compadre!" I don't know the idiom in english to say the same but it's kinda like "with friends like these ..."

Quote from: Koltar;1102455Ever Tried to play GURPS?

- Ed C.

Yes. I have. I own both GURPS 3rd and 4th Edition.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1102457The powers are weaker as already proven, and a MP Supes wouldn't be able to use them at the same time, while a non MP Supes has the powers at full force and can use them at the same time.

That's already an existing feature of the game system itself. Nobody can use all of their powers at the same time as defined by the rules for actions. They are limited to doing one thing at a time. Unless they have powers that are Linked.

QuoteThe MP version looks much weaker than the non MP, to anyone without an axe to grind. I'm not even that big of a fan of Hero, especially their 2 pounds of book is one of my gripes. But you're saying that something that would make a weaker Superman is cheating in favor of the weaker Superman. We have a saying here "No me ayudes compadre!" I don't know the idiom in english to say the same but it's kinda like "with friends like these ..."

It's not two pounds of book anymore. The two Hero System Rulebooks together are 8 pounds. And that's not even counting the Champions genre book or the two Advanced Rulebooks.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1102449And I pointed out that something else already exists within the system that simulated such a thing more consistently within the existing rules. Variable Advantage. Which can more easily represent a suite of custom arrows. Like in your example. Only that it is actually priced fairly.

Variable Advantage can't turn a Energy Blast into a Force Field or Entangle or Telekinesis though. All of which a character like say, Invisible Woman, can do with her force field powers, but not all at the same time. All Variable Advantage would be good for is a Cyclops type who uses blast powers in different ways.

If the only thing you can think of using multi-powers for is different variations on Energy Blast then I'm just going to say, go play a superhero game you enjoy because an Effects-based system like HERO or M&M isn't for you (and it sounds like you're just butthurt you built a crap character in a Champions game and instead of learning from it are bitching that the game is unfair).

I'll tell you another place where Multi-power is absolutely needed for genre emulation... Spellcasting. Spellcasting is invariably built as a multi-power with each spell as a slot in their fantasy setting books (and for mystical superheroes as well) with the primary limiting factors, as always for HERO being the action and END costs for using the action.

Also, you may call it a cheat, M&M's core rules says "everyone should use Alternate Effects for your attacks or you're going to run out of power points before you have a functional character (i.e. one that hits the expected attack/damage and defense values for the campaign's power level)."

How can it be a cheat if the system is literally TELLING YOU TO USE IT (all their example characters use it too and they even have "power profiles" for specific power sets to give them to you pre-built). There is no "meta-rule" on spending points in M&M and if there is it's actually, "in an effects-based game you should never OVERPAY for anything (i.e. find the cheapest way to do what you want and use that)."

The M&M system is literally built around using Alternate Powers because it adjusted all the other point costs to take into account that out of 150 build points (for a default PL 10 game) you're only going to be spending about 50-60 on actual powers where a basic ranged blast is going to cost you 25 all by itself (10 ranks at 2/rank +5 for accuracy to hit the PL attack/damage tradeoff caps). That's before actually interesting extras. The rest will be needed for ability scores, skills and other sundries.

And again, in my actual example of its use in actual play to simulate Super Strength Tricks (i.e. things characters with Super strength do on a regular basis, but which are separate effects under HERO or M&M rulesets) I have effects that are Entangles, Flashes, Move Objects, Burrowing movement, a Transform that you could NOT lump under a "variable advantage" for Strength.

Quote from: Chris24601;1102464(and it sounds like you're just butthurt you built a crap character in a Champions game and instead of learning from it are bitching that the game is unfair).

No. I just have seen decades of the Multipower abused to gain unfair advantage in a whole host of campaigns. Decades of players gaming the system. Instead of actually being there to participate in the campaign that the GMs put so much hard work to prepare.

Unappreciative shitheads whose antics were always disruptive to the game environment.

Just 2 pages into this thread and my brain went...yeah, this is why I don't play Champions anymore. I really can't get excited about this level of complexity anymore. I ran Champions at a convention with pre-made characters 6 years ago and two players left because I didn't min/max to squeeze every point. It was a faux X-men team and I just wanted the PCs to be flavorful, do their thing and be easy to figure out for newbs.

As a Champions GM back in the early editions, I didn't have big problems with Multipower in actual play IF the player worked it into the hero's theme. The far bigger problem I encountered was player dorks who wanked with the system to get scads of 1-2 use items for pennies of cost and theme-be-damned.

However, I've gamed with GMs who banned both MP and EC because of player abuse. One thing I've noted about the Hero system is the complaints various people have depends more on bad behavior within their group than the actual rules.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1102459It's not two pounds of book anymore. The two Hero System Rulebooks together are 8 pounds. And that's not even counting the Champions genre book or the two Advanced Rulebooks.

Fuck me! How many pages? How many of the text could be shaved of without losing the essence? Yeah, that's so not for me! I'll stay with older Champions versions, the ones with the rules in it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1102468Just 2 pages into this thread and my brain went...yeah, this is why I don't play Champions anymore. I really can't get excited about this level of complexity anymore. I ran Champions at a convention with pre-made characters 6 years ago and two players left because I didn't min/max to squeeze every point. It was a faux X-men team and I just wanted the PCs to be flavorful, do their thing and be easy to figure out for newbs.

I find min-maxing to be absolutely exhausting. Much more when it is forced upon me as part of an arms race. I don't like having my games turned into a competition with other players to see whose character is better. All I want to do is make and play interesting distinctive characters. Both as a player and as a GM. The arms race destroys my enthusiasm for actually playing.

QuoteAs a Champions GM back in the early editions, I didn't have big problems with Multipower in actual play IF the player worked it into the hero's theme. The far bigger problem I encountered was player dorks who wanked with the system to get scads of 1-2 use items for pennies of cost and theme-be-damned.

My problem too was with players who did the wankery. They weren't there to actually play the campaign. They were there to exploit the system in any way they could imagine. Which sucked the fun out of the experience for me.

QuoteHowever, I've gamed with GMs who banned both MP and EC because of player abuse. One thing I've noted about the Hero system is the complaints various people have depends more on bad behavior within their group than the actual rules.

It doesn't help at all when a part of the game system actually encourages the abuse. And generally makes itself a persistent pain in the backside.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1102469Fuck me! How many pages? How many of the text could be shaved of without losing the essence? Yeah, that's so not for me! I'll stay with older Champions versions, the ones with the rules in it.

Nearly a thousand pages. Give or take.

They shaved it down considerably with Champions Complete. But even there, it lost some of its utility in translation.

I have the completely unabridged version of Hero System 6th Edition.

Quote from: Koltar;1102455Ever Tried to play GURPS?

I've never played GURPS Supers. I have no idea how (or if) works, but I'm quite interested. My GURPS experience was mostly fantasy, Traveller and Star Trek.

Please start a thread about GURPS Supers and your thoughts!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1102468Just 2 pages into this thread and my brain went...yeah, this is why I don't play Champions anymore. I really can't get excited about this level of complexity anymore. I ran Champions at a convention with pre-made characters 6 years ago and two players left because I didn't min/max to squeeze every point. It was a faux X-men team and I just wanted the PCs to be flavorful, do their thing and be easy to figure out for newbs.

As a Champions GM back in the early editions, I didn't have big problems with Multipower in actual play IF the player worked it into the hero's theme. The far bigger problem I encountered was player dorks who wanked with the system to get scads of 1-2 use items for pennies of cost and theme-be-damned.

I am in the same boat. I liked the Hero System back in the day -- it was my go-to system for over a decade, but I haven't played in many years. These days the learning curve is too much for nearly anyone I play with. Plus the core mechanics remain clunky.

What I love about the Hero System is the variety of characters that it allows. In my experience - there are plenty of workable, balanced characters that use Multipower, and they would not be possible without it. Basically, anyone with a variety of attacks - which is an awful lot of characters.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1102468However, I've gamed with GMs who banned both MP and EC because of player abuse. One thing I've noted about the Hero system is the complaints various people have depends more on bad behavior within their group than the actual rules.

Yeah. Hero System does seem to attract a lot of people interested in abusing and fiddling with the system as a goal in itself. I think there are some things to be balanced in the rules, but you still need a GM covering common sense.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1102467No. I just have seen decades of the Multipower abused to gain unfair advantage in a whole host of campaigns. Decades of players gaming the system. Instead of actually being there to participate in the campaign that the GMs put so much hard work to prepare.

Unappreciative shitheads whose antics were always disruptive to the game environment.

This is a player issue, and based on other posts from you, this is a recurring problem not tied to a specific system. Maybe you need to find better players.  


I've been playing Champions / HERO since 1981. Multi-Power has never been a significant problem in a game I've played in, and allows for interesting characters that would otherwise be very expensive / inefficient. I've also never had an issue with Killing Attacks that some squawk about, personally I find the normal attack / KA divide one of the games strengths, not a flaw. Can these rules be abused? Certainly, HERO leaves a lot of room in the rules for interpretation and jerkoff players will try to abuse them.


The result is HERO requires a strong GM who knows the rules and will not hesitate to smack down powergamers and rules lawyers or those players will find a way to twist the rules and ruin it for the players there to play a game, not game the rules. HERO requires that a GM will enforce the "a disadvantage that is not a disadvantage is worth no points" rule.

It seems some people here have a common problem many Hero System fans have. They can't stand any kind of legitimate criticism of the Hero System at all. Right or wrong. And they make things personal. Engage in personal swipes and attacks. Rather than keeping the conversation civil.

I'm not playing that game. And I'm not going to surrender this thread to the unruly.

The majority of posters here have been absolutely great. I have nothing but nice things to say about them. But there are always that special few that feel they can cross any line and piss in my drink. And I'm having none of that.

if necessary. I will ask for help from the staff.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1102480The result is HERO requires a strong GM who knows the rules and will not hesitate to smack down powergamers and rules lawyers or those players will find a way to twist the rules and ruin it for the players there to play a game, not game the rules. HERO requires that a GM will enforce the "a disadvantage that is not a disadvantage is worth no points" rule.

For a long time? I was a wall. I was the tough GM that didn't put up with any crap from any player. I had a near invulnerability complex as a GM. I did my best and was proud of it. And I was always open-minded. But kept my eye on what was best for the group collectively. I was a GMing machine. I loved what I was doing and was good at it.

Then I got broken. My confidence went away. I actually got terrified of sitting in the GM's chair for about three years. And was never the same again afterward.

But regardless of that? I did my best to return to GMing. But I never recaptured the magic and confidence I had with it. And I fell flat on my face during trying. A lot.

The only time my fearless GM side ever reappeared was when I was running games of Nightbane and Beyond The Supernatural. I had discovered I have a real talent for portraying an action based horror atmosphere with comedic elements. My horror games felt like the Evil Dead movies before I actually got those movies on home video.

But the latest thing? A couple of bad players finally made me have enough. I went out and started looking for game systems that matched my personal creative style.  Which supported the stories I sought to tell and play. And that didn't feel like a chore to set up.

It's been decades since I had that feeling with the Hero System. Where it brought me joy instead of sorrow. Because. Like others have said. It simply got too much for me.

I own my personal flaws. I don't act ashamed of them or try to hide them.