Quote from: jhkimCaptain Power has a single 15d6 force blast. That's 75 points.

Captain Flexible has five different powers: a 3d6 force blast, a 2d6 armor-piercing ice blast, a 1.5d6 ego attack, a 1.5d6 gas attack (no normal defense), and a 2d6 no-endurance attack. Each of these is 15 points for a total of 75 points.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1102418As I pointed out in an earlier post. One of the Meta Rules of the Hero System states: That if there are multiple options for creating powers, the person is supposed to take the most expensive option. Not the cheapest.

The Multipower gives an extremely unfair advantage to those who use it. One, that by the rules themselves, shouldn't exist.

Advantages, as stated in the rules, are to be paid for. Not provide ridiculous discounts.

Do you feel that in my example that Captain Power and Captain Flexible are fairly priced?

It seems to me that in the absence of Multipower, Captain Flexible is nearly useless compared to Captain Power.

Quote from: jhkim;1102421Do you feel that in my example that Captain Power and Captain Flexible are fairly priced?

It seems to me that in the absence of Multipower, Captain Flexible is nearly useless compared to Captain Power.

That's the risk of point-based character creation. Not all characters are going to be equal in capability or expression.

But that doesn't excuse the creation of a blatant cheat. Which the Multipower is.

Quote from: jhkim;1102416The Multipower is an imperfect way to address the problem that one big effect is worth more than a choice of several small effect. To take an example:  

Captain Power has a single 15d6 force blast. That's 75 points.

Captain Flexible has five different powers: a 3d6 force blast, a 2d6 armor-piercing ice blast, a 1.5d6 ego attack, a 1.5d6 gas attack (no normal defense), and a 2d6 no-endurance attack. Each of these is 15 points for a total of 75 points.


These are the same cost, but the 15d6 attack is vastly more effective. No one is going to want Captain Flexible on their team, doing almost no damage in five different ways. I would argue that the multipower cost scheme is a more reasonable price for flexibility. With a multipower, Captain Flexible could have slots with a 10d6 force blast, a 6d6 armor-piercing ice blast, a 5d6 ego attack, a 5d6 gas attack (no normal defense), and a 6d6 no-endurance attack. I think that's a more reasonable peer for Captain Power.

So I did remember correctly and it's for you to be able to play Superman like characters. And to have them be effective in play. Does it make those characters as OP as Supes or the big cheese are?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1102427So I did remember correctly and it's for you to be able to play Superman like characters. And to have them be effective in play. Does it make those characters as OP as Supes or the big cheese are?

It makes them grossly overpowered. To the extreme.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1102427So I did remember correctly and it's for you to be able to play Superman like characters. And to have them be effective in play. Does it make those characters as OP as Supes or the big cheese are?

(MP = Multipower.)

MP's aren't really meant for Superman (he can easily be built w/o an MP) but for characters who have lots of variation on a theme, like Green Lantern:

• Green force blast
• Green mini-gun  
• Green stun-only blast
• Green force wall
• Green giant hand that grabs you
• Green magic carpet that people can ride on
• etc.

Or characters with either/or powers, like Captain America. Cap can:

• Throw his mighty shield*
• Or use it to block
• Or bash people with it

But he can't do all three at the same time. Superman, however, can fly, use heat vision, and lift a tank all at the same time.

However Darin has a point that MP's provide such attractive discounts that almost everyone uses them. I think it's worse in MM3.



*Limitation: Will not work against a plane, or a bomb, or ice, or a brainwashed buddy with a metal arm, or Spiderman, or just plain Thanos. In that case, you do not necessarily have to yield.

Quote from: Aglondir;1102433However Darin has a point that MP's provide such attractive discounts that almost everyone uses them. I think it's worse in MM3.

My position is: The discounts that they do give contradict the most basic rules of the game system. And that they are vastly unfair and unreasonable.

One thing you're ignoring in the costing is that one of the inherent limitations of the multipower is that you can't actually use all of the powers at the same time. You pay extra for flexibility, but that flexibility is NOT worth the value of an entire separate power.

As it stands, the guy with the multipower is paying 10% more to be able to use either a fire blast (say with the penetrating advantage) or a cold blast (say linked to a drain of movement) on a given turn (the flexibility is a +1/10 advantage).

It also, as demonstrated above, allows for the grouping of more varied effects to fit a theme. My favorite superhero character who started in Champions, but migrated to Mutants & Masterminds is a classic Super Strength hero, but he's learned to use his strength to perform many tricks over the years such as a sweeping strike to use against speedsters (area effect damage with a limit of requiring a physical object like a lamppost to make it) or a foot stomp to knock everyone off their feet (a burst knockdown attack), the "big wrap up" (snare attack requiring improvised materials to use), "bunker buster" (burrowing movement leaving a large tunnel) or "shore it up" (a transform that allows local material to be used to reinforce a structure in danger of collapsing). There's also super breath to push people back and blow out fires or the hand clap that stuns and deafens. He also has one that just extra strength with a limitation that it can only be used for lifting things.

I'm never going to using more than one of those effects at a time, but if I bought all of those different effects individually, they'd be at such low levels as to be useless. Instead, I'm paying 90 points to get eight 50 point effects usable one at a time. Someone not using a multipower can get a single 90 point ability for the same price (i.e. 80% more potent than any one of my abilities; hopefully I can make up for that with versatility of my many strength tricks).

The non-ultra multipower slots also allows for things like a Green Lantern Ring or power armor with a limited power output where it can produce a number of effects, but only has a limited power supply to split between them (so it could sacrifice some shields for more firepower or route all power to the engines for maximum speed). It can't operate all of the things at full power at once so in terms of points it shouldn't cost as much as each at full power individually. Instead you effectively pay for the pool and then 20% for each option you can put those points into. At five abilities you're paying 100 points to use 50 points worth of abilities at a time.

Also, at least for Mutants & Masterminds, is literally built into the assumptions of the system so your claim that this somehow unbalances them is specious at best. M&M takes the time to explain that you are expected to use alternate powers (their version of the multi-power) for things like attacks because the added flexibility in attack choices isn't worth nearly as much as raw power increases are because you can only use one at a time and the prices for things are scaled with the assumption everyone will be using alternate powers everywhere it's practical.

Indeed, the previously mentioned super strength hero actually had to drop half his strength tricks in the conversion (even though they're far less expensive in M&M than multipowers are in HERO) because of the increased cost of other elements like skills (and the removal of point granting flaws keeping me to a strict budget instead of playing the "game the flaws for extra build points" mini-game). Fortunately, M&M also includes a baked in power-stunting system so I only need my most common strength tricks (extra lifting, sweeping strike, super breath and "the big wrap up") and the rest I can stunt with Hero Points or fatigue if I really need them.

Basically, I wholeheartedly disagree with your premise and, indeed, think Champions and M&M basically couldn't begin to emulate the superhero genre effectively without a multi-power type structure.

ICONS does it effectively without using any type of structure like that. So does GURPS. And they simulate superhero comics just fine. So yes. I disagree strongly with you.

Quote from: Chris24601;1102439I'm never going to using more than one of those effects at a time, but if I bought all of those different effects individually, they'd be at such low levels as to be useless. Instead, I'm paying 90 points to get eight 50 point effects usable one at a time. Someone not using a multipower can get a single 90 point ability for the same price (i.e. 80% more potent than any one of my abilities; hopefully I can make up for that with versatility of my many strength tricks).

Exactly. If you take Multipower out of the Hero System, the result will just be that you'll get a lot more one-note type characters. There won't be any characters like, say, Green Arrow with an array of many different trick arrows -- because each of those different effects will be essentially useless compared to a more single-focus character - i.e. someone who just shoots one type of arrow.

Quote from: jhkimDo you feel that in my example that Captain Power and Captain Flexible are fairly priced?

It seems to me that in the absence of Multipower, Captain Flexible is nearly useless compared to Captain Power.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1102425That's the risk of point-based character creation. Not all characters are going to be equal in capability or expression.

But that doesn't excuse the creation of a blatant cheat. Which the Multipower is.

Calling it cheating is emotional bullshit. Multipower is defined in the rules. Lots of people play with it and have fun. The question is what is it's effect. I'd say that it doesn't produce overpowered characters. It allows for more flexible characters who can do more variety of effects, and those characters are reasonably priced compared to single-focus characters.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1102443ICONS does it effectively without using any type of structure like that. So does GURPS. And they simulate superhero comics just fine. So yes. I disagree strongly with you.

If you're perfectly satisfied with how ICONS and GURPS do superheroes, then just play those games. If you want to propose changes to the Hero System, though, you have to show how your changed system is better than the basic system. And I think your change would just result in more single-focus PCs, because characters with more range of effects will be much more mis-priced.

Quote from: jhkim;1102446Exactly. If you take Multipower out of the Hero System, the result will just be that you'll get a lot more one-note type characters. There won't be any characters like, say, Green Arrow with an array of many different trick arrows -- because each of those different effects will be essentially useless compared to a more single-focus character - i.e. someone who just shoots one type of arrow.

And I pointed out that something else already exists within the system that simulated such a thing more consistently within the existing rules. Variable Advantage. Which can more easily represent a suite of custom arrows. Like in your example. Only that it is actually priced fairly.

QuoteCalling it cheating is emotional bullshit. Multipower is defined in the rules. Lots of people play with it and have fun. The question is what is it's effect. I'd say that it doesn't produce overpowered characters. It allows for more flexible characters who can do more variety of effects, and those characters are reasonably priced compared to single-focus characters.

No. It's not. It's an accurate description of that element which contradicts the entirety of the rest of the game system. The only excuse to use one is saving points. Which the Meta-Rules already state is not an acceptable excuse.

QuoteIf you're perfectly satisfied with how ICONS and GURPS do superheroes, then just play those games. If you want to propose changes to the Hero System, though, you have to show how your changed system is better than the basic system. And I think your change would just result in more single-focus PCs, because characters with more range of effects will be much more mis-priced.

I've already shown an alternative that already exists within the system. I have illustrated it several times. It does work. And it is priced far more fairly than a Multipower ever will be.

Quote from: Chris24601;1102439One thing you're ignoring in the costing is that one of the inherent limitations of the multipower is that you can't actually use all of the powers at the same time. You pay extra for flexibility, but that flexibility is NOT worth the value of an entire separate power.

As it stands, the guy with the multipower is paying 10% more to be able to use either a fire blast (say with the penetrating advantage) or a cold blast (say linked to a drain of movement) on a given turn (the flexibility is a +1/10 advantage).

It also, as demonstrated above, allows for the grouping of more varied effects to fit a theme. My favorite superhero character who started in Champions, but migrated to Mutants & Masterminds is a classic Super Strength hero, but he's learned to use his strength to perform many tricks over the years such as a sweeping strike to use against speedsters (area effect damage with a limit of requiring a physical object like a lamppost to make it) or a foot stomp to knock everyone off their feet (a burst knockdown attack), the "big wrap up" (snare attack requiring improvised materials to use), "bunker buster" (burrowing movement leaving a large tunnel) or "shore it up" (a transform that allows local material to be used to reinforce a structure in danger of collapsing). There's also super breath to push people back and blow out fires or the hand clap that stuns and deafens. He also has one that just extra strength with a limitation that it can only be used for lifting things.

I'm never going to using more than one of those effects at a time, but if I bought all of those different effects individually, they'd be at such low levels as to be useless. Instead, I'm paying 90 points to get eight 50 point effects usable one at a time. Someone not using a multipower can get a single 90 point ability for the same price (i.e. 80% more potent than any one of my abilities; hopefully I can make up for that with versatility of my many strength tricks).

The non-ultra multipower slots also allows for things like a Green Lantern Ring or power armor with a limited power output where it can produce a number of effects, but only has a limited power supply to split between them (so it could sacrifice some shields for more firepower or route all power to the engines for maximum speed). It can't operate all of the things at full power at once so in terms of points it shouldn't cost as much as each at full power individually. Instead you effectively pay for the pool and then 20% for each option you can put those points into. At five abilities you're paying 100 points to use 50 points worth of abilities at a time.

Also, at least for Mutants & Masterminds, is literally built into the assumptions of the system so your claim that this somehow unbalances them is specious at best. M&M takes the time to explain that you are expected to use alternate powers (their version of the multi-power) for things like attacks because the added flexibility in attack choices isn't worth nearly as much as raw power increases are because you can only use one at a time and the prices for things are scaled with the assumption everyone will be using alternate powers everywhere it's practical.

Indeed, the previously mentioned super strength hero actually had to drop half his strength tricks in the conversion (even though they're far less expensive in M&M than multipowers are in HERO) because of the increased cost of other elements like skills (and the removal of point granting flaws keeping me to a strict budget instead of playing the "game the flaws for extra build points" mini-game). Fortunately, M&M also includes a baked in power-stunting system so I only need my most common strength tricks (extra lifting, sweeping strike, super breath and "the big wrap up") and the rest I can stunt with Hero Points or fatigue if I really need them.

Basically, I wholeheartedly disagree with your premise and, indeed, think Champions and M&M basically couldn't begin to emulate the superhero genre effectively without a multi-power type structure.

So it's not good to build a Rimborian either? (All the powers of Superman but can use only one at the time at the same level as Supes)

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1102450So it's not good to build a Rimborian either? (All the powers of Superman but can use only one at the time at the same level as Supes)

Not all of the powers of Superman would be in the Multipower. Only the offensive ones.

Movement and Defensive powers would be outside of it.

Historically, an Elemental Control would have been used in concert with a Multipower for maximum cost savings.

I'm not new to the Hero System. I've been dealing with it since 1987.

Dude. Just don't allow MPs or VPs. Easy peasy. I imagine the game would work just fine without them. You may have to up the point totals in some supers games to accommodate all the desired archetypes.

I can't imagine no MPs or VPs affecting Heroic level games at all.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1102451Not all of the powers of Superman would be in the Multipower. Only the offensive ones.

Movement and Defensive powers would be outside of it.

But if you can build Supes without it and I do it with it, my version ends up weaker. How is that cheating on any shape or form?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1102453But if you can build Supes without it and I do it with it, my version ends up weaker. How is that cheating on any shape or form?

You would be hard-pressed to make a weaker version with a Multipower. Very hard-pressed. The difference in the use of a Multipower makes is indeed that extreme.