Quote from: Razor 007;1094945It will be a massive volume, with great artwork, that will look good on a bookshelf.  I anticipate that several, if not many YouTube RPG reviewers will turn out 20 - 40 minute review videos of PF2E; especially for the Core Rulebook.  Primarily, because it will be the big, shiny, new thing in August, 2019.

I will counter that with honest reviewers pointing out how much of a joke this game really is.

Does anyone else smell sour grapes?

Just me?

Actually I am not sour.  I had looked into the preview and saw for the feat cluster fuck that it is.  It won't sell other than to people who like to show off their rpg books, but don't bother to play them.  I honestly feel sorry for any GM who runs this game as he has to constantly check in the book to make the correct rulings.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1094931Yeah that is a sign that it will crash and burn.  No one is talking about it and thus there is no passion to drive anyone to buy it.

In the days before social media blew up, I bought many games without ever hearing much about them. They were on a shelf, I looked it over, and I bought it if I though it might be interesting. I still do it this way even though the "shelf" has become the new releases page on CoolStuffInc. I really don't care much at all for how much/little press a product has or who's talking about it.

Also another thing I've noticed that is potentually a bad sign for PF2E is on there customer service page is the number of subscription cancellations happening (For context usually you would have one or two a month but now it's dozens in the last month or two and it's not accounting for people who cancel via email or notes.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1094922I'm not going to argue with you about it.  You are a broken record on the subject and clearly not subject to reason.  But about once every 1,000 times you repeat it (I exaggerate only slightly), I'm going to disagree with you.  Consider your next several hundred complaints of that nature to be free and clear.

If someone else wants to talk about it when you aren't around, I'll consider it.

Ah OK, you are just blowing hot air.

Quote from: JeremyR;1094724Was 2e the longest lasting edition? 1e went from 77 to 89. 2e went from 89 to 2000. Though there was some overlap between 1e and 2e, with 1e staying in print until 1990

OD&D lasted 3 years and lived on as B then BX, so technically about 6-7 years. But there was apparently alot of legal battling involved as evidenced in various print revisions of AD&D and BX on it drifts more and more away from OD&D.
AD&D is in a way OD&D with tons of Dragon articles collected. But pretty much becomes its own thing. That lasted about 12 years and 2e is AD&D with only a few tweaks originally. Alot of the text is the exact same.
2e lasted about 12 years as well and probably would have kept on chugging along had TSR not killed themselves off. We'll never know.
3e lasted a mere 3 years. Probably would have lasted 5 if things had gone differently.
3.5 lasted 5 years.
4e lasted about 6 years, but was on the way out by 5.
5e has now lasted 5 years. So too soon yet to see if WOTC will slit their own wrists just to make sacrifice to the great god 5 year plan.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1094897It becomes difficult to actually challenge 5e PCs without a lot of attrition or creating impossible scenarios. "Combat as sport" becomes a chore to pull off.

I also feel like the HP bloat prevents "combat as war" from being fun or exciting at higher levels.

I haven't really seen this at all, and I GM at level 20 a fair bit. Saturday online game had a good fight between level 19-20 party and spellcasting ancient blue dragon the players loved.

I guess I do Combat as War, and I tend to use the average damage numbers at high level to keep things moving.

Quote from: Shasarak;1094963Does anyone else smell sour grapes?

Just me?

If that was in reply to me, I have zero emotional investment in the success or failure of PF2E.  I'm just engaging in academic dialogue, on a subject of at least short term significance to the RPG community.

I have lots of PF1E material, and I have very little interest in their future releases; which will be incompatible with my current PF material.  I guess if they release some nice gaming mats / maps, those would be interesting?

Quote from: S'mon;1095007I haven't really seen this at all, and I GM at level 20 a fair bit. Saturday online game had a good fight between level 19-20 party and spellcasting ancient blue dragon the players loved.

I guess I do Combat as War, and I tend to use the average damage numbers at high level to keep things moving.

Maybe you are the exception, but so far everyone that's said this to me also creates custom monsters for their high level party.

I wouldn't consider using the spellcasting optional rule for a stock blue dragon to be a "custom monster" so that would count.

The reason I care: I think 5e's combat problems come more from the monster manual than the PH. I've heard many reports of a good time using Kobold Press's Tome of Beasts (I would consider a 3rd party bestiary equivalent to custom monsters).

Quote from: Rhedyn;1094980Ah OK, you are just blowing hot air.

I also don't waste my time arguing with people that have reading comprehension issues.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1095014Maybe you are the exception, but so far everyone that's said this to me also creates custom monsters for their high level party.

I wouldn't consider using the spellcasting optional rule for a stock blue dragon to be a "custom monster" so that would count.

The reason I care: I think 5e's combat problems come more from the monster manual than the PH. I've heard many reports of a good time using Kobold Press's Tome of Beasts (I would consider a 3rd party bestiary equivalent to custom monsters).

Thats cause imo, the monster manual is made for wimps. Most of the mobsters arent made to be threatening, but to wittle down a party of many, many enocounters, eveb bosses are meant to be the 8th encounter after seven mook encounters.

Quote from: Shasarak;1094840You forgot 4e Essentials - We fucked up with 4e but maybe this evergreen product will win back the Gnards.

I thought the purpose of 4E Essentials was to keep Mearls employed? 4E was dead at this point and these were released in bad faith: A proper revised set of Core Rule books - 4.5E, if you will - would have better served the 4E fan base. Personally, all I wanted was a revised PHB with all the errata included. Instead I got these tiny little books which looked like they belonged to a different game. (BTW, I actually liked quite a few of the Essentials classes.)

It should also be noted that, at the time he presided over Essentials, Mearls wasn't even running a 4E campaign....

Quote from: Rhedyn;1095014Maybe you are the exception, but so far everyone that's said this to me also creates custom monsters for their high level party.

I wouldn't consider using the spellcasting optional rule for a stock blue dragon to be a "custom monster" so that would count.

The reason I care: I think 5e's combat problems come more from the monster manual than the PH. I've heard many reports of a good time using Kobold Press's Tome of Beasts (I would consider a 3rd party bestiary equivalent to custom monsters).

I don't generally create custom monsters from scratch, but I convert monsters in Pathfinder APs. I occasionally use Tome of Beasts and other third party sources especially for Mythos critters, but I'm mostly using Krakens, Glabrezu, Ancient dragons etc from the Monster Manual.

Good long fight yesteday between a level 8-10 party backed up by NPC soldiers and an army of 34 CR 2 Draugr & their CR 8 Frost Corpse leader (& a hydra) from Primeval Thule Campaign Setting.

The MM creatures do tend to be fairly weak, but the design issues are nowhere near as serious as in the 4e MM. After 5th level you can pretty much treat 5e CR as if it were 4e CR, ie a creature of CR X is a moderate encounter for ONE PC of CR X.