Do you think WOTC will keep an eye on PF2E's rollout?
Yes, as a cautionary tale of what not to do.
I actually expect early sales of PF2 to be rather decent. It will be the new hotness from Pazio after all. It will also be declared an unmitigated success.
We'll have to wait for the early enthusiasm to subside, say 2-3 years down the line, to see if it really does a 4e on Pazio. Which I believe it will.
Pazio does not have the WOTC bankroll to bail it out of costly errors, and depending how things go, 5 years down the road we could be looking at a very different Pazio.
To be honest I'm not even sure it will take that long seem to be losing a looot of subscribers at the moment as the edition changes.
Much will depend on how Pathfinder Society receives 2e. If Paizo draws significant numbers of players away from WotC's Org Play, then expect WotC to pay attention.
Also, keep an eye on the YouTube streamers. If they declare 2e to be the new hotness, then expect WotC to pay attention.
Quote from: Razor 007;1094689Do you think WOTC will keep an eye on PF2E's rollout?
Officially, no.
Unofficially, yes.
Quote from: Kevin197;1094694To be honest I'm not even sure it will take that long seem to be losing a looot of subscribers at the moment as the edition changes.
How do you know how many subscribers they have?
Honestly? Probably not anymore than they keep up with the industry as a whole. Also, 6th Edition has to be a long way off. 5e is doing to well to upset that apple cart. This thread is a good 5 years early.
Quote from: Kevin197;1094694To be honest I'm not even sure it will take that long seem to be losing a looot of subscribers at the moment as the edition changes.
Although this is anecdotal, I'm inclined to agree that the general sentiment is negative. No where NEAR as much buzz as usual. Also, way more overly-eager manic enthusiasm on the parts of the business, almost bordering on desperation.
I really like the folks at Paizo. I'm going to get the initial PDF to see how it is.
Added to say I hope it does well and PF people move over to it. I would like to see Paizo succeed.
We're less than 30 days away from the release of PF2E now. I thought a little pre-release discussion was warranted.
Quote from: Razor 007;1094708We're less than 30 days away from the release of PF2E now. I thought a little pre-release discussion was warranted.
No no, don't get me wrong. Not criticizing the post, just that I believe we have many years of 5e ahead of us. :-)
I've played a little bit of Pathfinder, but not too much. I've followed discussions about Pathfinder 2E but haven't read the playtest rules personally. That being said, however, my impression is that they are changing things enough that many of the 1E players may not be so happy. Remember that Pathfinder was designed originally to keep 3.5E alive and and I assume that the main Pathfinder players chose that edition because they liked 3.5E, so it seems highly likely to me that any edition change will be traumatic for those players and they will not want to switch. They didn't switch for D&D 4E and so I believe they won't want to switch for Pathfinder 2E.
I think the gap is too large to leave much bandwagoning. I would be surprised of DnD 6e coming earlier than 2022, ideally 2024. And RPG trend chasing tends to be tighter than 3+ years. :)
But WotC could be buffaloed into a shame spiral of suck, given how gormless the big name RPG industry is to puritan lynch mobs, so nothing's off the table. :(
Quote from: trechriron;1094706Also, 6th Edition has to be a long way off. 5e is doing to well to upset that apple cart. This thread is a good 5 years early.
Not really. 5e is already five years old this month; longer than any WotC era edition and about half the age of 2e, the longest lasting TSR edition.
WotC also has a pretty well established three year development cycle for new editions (3e began in 1997 and released in 2000, work on 3.5e began almost immediately and released in 2004, work on 4E began in 2006 and released in 2008, work on 5e began in 2012 and released in 2014).
Given that 2024 is D&D's 50th Anniversary and 5e would be on it's tenth anniversary by then, my prediction is that we'll see a 6e released in 2024, which means they'd be starting development no later than early 2022.
6e may not have begun development yet, but the date to start working on development is certainly on WotC's long term calander by this point, even if 5e IS selling strong right now (because with a three year development cycle you need to start while the current version is still going strong).
This doesn't mean 6e will be a radical departure from 5e. It might even just be what 2e was to 1e and be somewhat cross compatible. But even that would still need new art, probably some new prose, etc. will take time. Not to mention just reaching the decision to not do what WotC's done every previous time they've done a new edition and essentially write a brand new game will probably take extensive discussions all by itself.
Quote from: Razor 007;1094708We're less than 30 days away from the release of PF2E now. I thought a little pre-release discussion was warranted.
I have not seen much in the way of spoilers but all of the people reporting on their 2e game experiences have been very positive.
They got rid of resonance, character creation seems pretty much the same as the playtest, wands have one spell per day plus the option to overcharge it which seems fun. Just hope they have not tried to over balance it.
Quote from: trechriron;1094706Although this is anecdotal, I'm inclined to agree that the general sentiment is negative. No where NEAR as much buzz as usual. Also, way more overly-eager manic enthusiasm on the parts of the business, almost bordering on desperation.
I really like the folks at Paizo. I'm going to get the initial PDF to see how it is.
Added to say I hope it does well and PF people move over to it. I would like to see Paizo succeed.
Every yeard, Baizuo has managed to sell out of whatever book they bring and introduce at Gencon. I'm predicting that they're going to be packing a bunch of PF2E back to Washington this year.
Was 2e the longest lasting edition? 1e went from 77 to 89. 2e went from 89 to 2000. Though there was some overlap between 1e and 2e, with 1e staying in print until 1990
Quote from: Razor 007;1094689Do you think WOTC will keep an eye on PF2E's rollout?
I think any D&D 6e will be delayed because of Mearls leaving WotC.
Quote from: JeremyR;1094724Was 2e the longest lasting edition? 1e went from 77 to 89. 2e went from 89 to 2000. Though there was some overlap between 1e and 2e, with 1e staying in print until 1990
I would probably put my vote towards 1e. The end of 2e was kinda just waiting for 3e to be released.
Interesting thoughts on D&D 6E and I have to say that for me a lot of this is a matter of perception. Just for fun, I did some internet searches and found this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons
It suggests the following start dates: 1974 OD&D, 1977 AD&D, 1989 2E, 2000 3E, 2008 4E, 2014 5E. The article doesn't suggest an "end date" which ties into JeremyR's thoughts about the end of 1E.
Using those start dates as a guide, we get: OE = 3 years, 1E = 12 years, 2E = 11 years, 3E = 8 years, 4E = 6 years, 5E = 5+ years. I always felt like AD&D was mostly a re-organization of OD&D, and 0E+1E gives us 15 years. 2E also felt a lot like a re-package rather than a full revision, and 0E+1E+2E gives us 26 years. I suspect that's why to me the "old school" seems to have such longevity and the "new school" starting with 3E does not. (Comparing 26 with 8, 6, and 5+ seems very different than the 3,12,11,8,6,5+ sequence.)
Of other interest (to me, at least) is the longevity of the "classic" D&D line which goes from Basic (1977) through B/X (1981) and BECMI (1983), RC (1991), and Classic (1994) before essentially dying in 2000. Taken in parts the numbers become 4, 2, 8, 3, and 6 years but I think many would argue that many of these "editions" were essentially repackaging of the same game. To me, at least, Basic -> B/X -> BECMI -> RC felt more like growth than edition change and those iterations of the game add up to 17 years of the 23 year run for the rules system.
So, if you make the case that "D&D" (all of the versions) ran for 23 years and "AD&D" (0E+1E+2E) ran 26 years, then it's easy to conclude that the newer editions keep changing constantly. There is certainly an illusion of old school stability. "D&D" and "AD&D" are pretty similar to one another and share common roots. 3E is clearly different from either "D&D" or "AD&D." 4E is nothing like 3E. 5E is nothing like 4E.
I suspect that the 5E -> 6E move will be more of reorganization than of total overhaul, much like either of the two old school product lines. I know that 2E had multiple covers (regular and the black border ones) which felt very different to me, but no one classifies them as new "editions" and the transition from 5E to 6E may be a similar one.
I have no idea where I'm going with this. I just started typing as I was thinking....
Quote from: kythri;1094723Every yeard, Baizuo has managed to sell out of whatever book they bring and introduce at Gencon. I'm predicting that they're going to be packing a bunch of PF2E back to Washington this year.
Baizuo.
What a perfect name. I noticed the PF2E example on their blog included choosing personal pronouns as a (minor) step in character creation. So woke.
More on topic, PF2E does look interesting but, frankly, I don't trust the Baizuo team to deliver well-designed rules. To that end, I can't imagine WotC finding much from the PF2E rules once they're released that might inspire design choices during 6E. However, I am sure they will follow the business model Baizuo uses for PF2E and see what lessons they can draw from that, much like PF1E seems to have inspired the choice by WotC to focus on major adventure paths as a primary product offering (albeit in single book format).
Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1094729I don't trust the Baizuo team to deliver well-designed rules.
The real problem is that we don't know what they can or cannot do, as their main rules set was just a copy of 3.5E D&D. They have never had to build a rules set from scratch, and we have no idea what they will end up with.
In my honest opinion not really.
PF 2E came about because of how well received6E was in by the fans. If Wotc had never released 5E then Paizo would still be publishing 1E.
I think the core book will sell well at Gencon yet not as well as Paizo wants it too. As unlike the first time the Paizo 1E core was released fans are not angry and unhappy with the official version of D&D being produced at the time.
For myself I have gotten over the truly insulting two page "were fully woke" SJW manifesto at the beginning of the book and wanted to give PF 2e an honest chance and found what I read my own enthusiasm...lacking.
It is also not helped tha much of what is going into PF 2E can be found in the 1E sourcebook called Pathfinder unchained. It is not 100% copy of the material just enough for myself to not want to purchase. To give one an idea how long ago they began working on PF 2E Pathfinder Unchained was released 2015.
As well I finally reached a point in my hobby that I no longer see or feel the need to constantly change the edition I am playing. 3E was the edition that brought me back to playing D&D and it was different enough to warrant buying the books. At the time I also single and less responsibilities. Being Canadian the books even on Amazon cost more and I can't justify the expense.
Now if I see reviews either online or talking to fellow players or actually playing of the 2E either by joining or on Youtube and Pf 2E and it is positive and I can no longer find plays for PF 1E in my neck of the woods I might switch over and sell off my 1E PF collection. Otherwise I will remain with Pf 1E.
From what I can see custom-ability of characters still remains and for example rather than an Alchemist be given a bunch of starting class abilities. Every X amount of levels one can choose a new class ability. So the Alchemist could start out being really could at making alchemical items and not necessarily be able to throw their trademark bomb. One can still pick up that ability as they progress in levels. I just found too many of the racial abilites very lacking too many +1 style racial feats. Maybe +1 is a big thing in Pf 2E. In first it was really poor class design by the devs.
Another thing which will hurt their chances of more fans switching over is that HeroLab rather than being a pay once for what you need and you are good model is going to a fully online model with a monthly subscription. Which to myself and my players is also a big reason to not switch over to PF 2E. I like tabletop rpgs just not enough to want to pay a monthly subscription to use a character generator. Oh well back to paper, pen and pencil then. I have to say ashamed of some of the people I play with. I get the complaint about paying the monthly subscription you think one asked them to cut off their nutsack with a rusty blunt butter knife at the news of having to write out their characters on paper. Don't quote me on this yet from what I heard on another gaming forum Paizo will also no longer have a free SRD to reference online. Being replaced possibly by the Archives of Nethys. I tried to look it up online and could find nothing. Then again on that end I truly do not blame them. As they lost many book sales because players used exclusively their free SRd. From a moral standpoint a great thing to do for gamers. Financially as a company offering free access to rules is a sure way to lose sales. Spare me "if people use the free stuff online they will buy the books later on". No...no they won't they will keep using the free SRD.
To make a long post even longer I'm not giving PF 2e a definite no and I don't think it will have any to very little impact on 6E. As I have mentioned above one of the main reasons PF 2E was because 5E was taking away their market share and fans away from Pathfinder 1E and Paizo. Will fans return yes and no. Yes because some may buy it anyway and many of the changes do speed up play though probably not enough that Paizo would like. Mostly no because even with the changes the Paizo devs are still too afraid and stubborn (mostly stubborn) to get rid of many sacred cows to their rpg. Many players switched over to playing 5E because many classes shackled by alignment restrictions had them removed. Of course a DM in 5E can play with Paladins being Lawful Good yet it is not official part of 5E. And you guessed it Paladins still have to be LG in PF 2E. They say they will release books with more alignment options later which is meaningless if the core still has the same restrictions. So I think many who are happy with PF 1E flaws and all and switched over to 5E will probably remain with those versions of rpg. It is also not helped that with Pf 2E to myself at least it feels too little too late.
Quote from: finarvyn;1094711I've played a little bit of Pathfinder, but not too much. I've followed discussions about Pathfinder 2E but haven't read the playtest rules personally. That being said, however, my impression is that they are changing things enough that many of the 1E players may not be so happy. Remember that Pathfinder was designed originally to keep 3.5E alive and and I assume that the main Pathfinder players chose that edition because they liked 3.5E, so it seems highly likely to me that any edition change will be traumatic for those players and they will not want to switch. They didn't switch for D&D 4E and so I believe they won't want to switch for Pathfinder 2E.
Our group was hardcore 3.5 and then PF with a little bit of 5e mixed in.
We are now playing 4e.
I personally see no reason to play Paizo's attempt at 4e when that edition is complete and better designed.
To be fair though Pf 2E does not come across in a way shape or form imo as 4E. I can respect not liking Pf 2E it is not in away shape or form D&D 4E.
Whether we like it or not Pathfinder like D&D 2E needed a kick in the pants as Paizo was losing out profit, fans and market share to 5E.
Paizo needed something new rather than another second recycled, rehash of 3.5.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1094734Our group was hardcore 3.5 and then PF with a little bit of 5e mixed in.
We are now playing 4e.
I personally see no reason to play Paizo's attempt at 4e when that edition is complete and better designed.
Not to mention, a brilliant set of free (cough, cough) offline tools for character creation, monster building, and looking up every rules-related piece of information ever published.
Quote from: finarvyn;1094730The real problem is that we don't know what they can or cannot do, as their main rules set was just a copy of 3.5E D&D. They have never had to build a rules set from scratch, and we have no idea what they will end up with.
But even there we see their piss-poor design skills at work as they not only failed to solve any of 3.5E's well-known problems, but every time they put together new rules (beginning, IIRC, with the kingdom building rules in Kingmaker) they completely Gygaxed it: When something should have been simple, it was made complicated, and when something needed a bit more complication, it was dumbed down.
None of that matters, of course, because you can choose your own pronouns in PF2E....
"Choose your own pronouns" ///////////
They are "leaning forward".
Quote from: Chris24601;1094715Not really.
... my prediction is that we'll see a 6e released in 2024 ...
Well you were like an OK devil's advocate. Except at the part where you agreed that we're 5 years out from a new version of D&D. I agree with your prediction. :-P
Quote from: trechriron;1094779Well you were like an OK devil's advocate. Except at the part where you agreed that we're 5 years out from a new version of D&D. I agree with your prediction. :-P
I will be perfectly fine with that timeline. No criticism whatsoever. I will be a little surprised, but not disappointed.
It would definitely give the impression that PF2E didn't matter to WOTC. By then, PF2E would probably take a downturn, and make WOTC look even better.
Quote from: trechriron;1094779Well you were like an OK devil's advocate. Except at the part where you agreed that we're 5 years out from a new version of D&D. I agree with your prediction. :-P
My point though is that editions don't just magically appear overnight. All evidence from WotC is that design work starts around three years before the edition actually releases.
That means the events of 2021 are what 6e's design team are going to bring to the table (ex. the immediate aftermath of the 2020 elections and whether the SJWs are taking a victory lap or whether President Trump's reelection has sent them spiraling even further into the gibbering jaws of madness).
Two years from now (not five) is just enough time for the full ramifications of PF2E to have shaken out, but still immediate enough that it's failure (or, for some reason probably proving the existence of Hell, success) will be on the minds of people inside the industry.
That's why I suggested that based on the development timeline for 2024, PF2E would have an influence... even if it's only what NOT to do.
By 2024, maybe they'll be on PF3E. :D
Does there need to be a 6e?
Given the slow trickle of actual 5e content, it seems to me that they may be trying for the evergreen thing. There's basically no supplement treadmill, people seem to still be picking up the core books... 5e has minimal mechanics, so it's not like there are glaring rules issues that need to be addressed with a new edition (that I'm aware of, at any rate).
Quote from: GnomeWorks;1094798Does there need to be a 6e?
Given the slow trickle of actual 5e content, it seems to me that they may be trying for the evergreen thing. There's basically no supplement treadmill, people seem to still be picking up the core books... 5e has minimal mechanics, so it's not like there are glaring rules issues that need to be addressed with a new edition (that I'm aware of, at any rate).
D&D6E will eventually happen, just to sell more core rulebooks; once the sales of the 5E core rulebooks finally drops off.
Quote from: GnomeWorks;1094798Does there need to be a 6e?
Given the slow trickle of actual 5e content, it seems to me that they may be trying for the evergreen thing. There's basically no supplement treadmill, people seem to still be picking up the core books... 5e has minimal mechanics, so it's not like there are glaring rules issues that need to be addressed with a new edition (that I'm aware of, at any rate).
Arguably the only editions that were
necessary were 2e (at least according to TSR), to clean up 1e, and 5e, to fix the sales disaster that was 4e.
My personal observations on why each edition came to be, at least from TSR/WotC's perspective:
1e - We need unified rules for tournaments, plus Dave Arneson shouldn't get any more royalties.
2e - The rules need cleanup, Gary Gygax shouldn't get any more royalties, and we need to sanitize everything to keep the religious people off our backs.
3e - We want to wash away the bad taste TSR left. Plus 2e became a bloated mess.
3.5e - With this much crunch of course we need to clean things up. Plus we need to remind all the D20 people who's boss.
4e - We fucked up with the OGL, but nobody cares because they're all busy playing WoW.
5e - We really fucked up with 4e. We need to make both the Pathfinder people and Grognards happy.
(Probable) 6e - Twitter told us we had to.
Quote from: trechriron;1094706Honestly? Probably not anymore than they keep up with the industry as a whole. Also, 6th Edition has to be a long way off. 5e is doing to well to upset that apple cart. This thread is a good 5 years early.
Never underestimate WOTCs near religious belief in the damn "5 year plan". 3e was essentially planned obsolete right out the gate as they were allready working on 4e which turned into 3.5 when they paniced. Then 4e came out and and even if it had not nearly tanked the company they were near certainly planning a 5e anyhow.
WOTC and Paizo are companies that have succeeded despite their own best efforts to fail. And WOTC was put on a tight leash by Hasbro after one screwup too many.
Quote from: Omega;1094803Then 4e came out and and even if it had not nearly tanked the company
D&D never stood a chance of tanking WotC. If D&D was cancelled tomorrow, the only impact to WotC would be the shitcanning of D&D staff. The M:tG staff might notice the dust accumulation a few weeks later.
Quote from: Omega;10948033e was essentially planned obsolete right out the gate as they were already working on 4e which turned into 3.5 when they paniced.
Do we have sources for any of this, or are they just guesses? I wonder, because if I was a game designers I'd have a hard time promoting something I wrote if I knew that it was already obsolete and my company was already working on a replacement.
GenZ and the teen children of Millennials would be the sales target for 6e if there will be a mid-2020s edition.
That will be a very different, and currently unknown, social media and cultural landscape.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1094809GenZ and the teen children of Millennials would be the sales target for 6e if there will be a mid-2020s edition.
That will be a very different, and currently unknown, social media and cultural landscape.
If my niece, goddaughters and godsons and their game choices are any indication 6e would have anime-style artwork and a building-block style approach to character building.
Imagine 5e only with race, class and background having equal weight (say put ALL the skill/tool and maybe even save proficiencies into the background) and classes being more akin to 4E's class/paragon path/epic destiny in terms of splitting up features so that you're still making big significant choices about your character past the starting levels (5e puts some choices off as late as level three, but you hit that pretty quickly by the XP charts and those level 3 choices are essentially the end of your build defining choices unless you multi-class which has its own problems).
That'd probably be their ideal.
Quote from: finarvyn;1094808Do we have sources for any of this, or are they just guesses?
I'm not Omega, but I'm struggling to recall where I saw it. I do remember WotC staff/devs specifically talking about this. I want to say that I remember at least Dancey and/or Monte Cook and/or Sean Reynolds have talked about this before.
It wasn't so much planned obsolescence as much as it was a "3E revised" that was planned - updated core books that accounted for errata and what not, but not as far as an entirely new version, or as far as they went with 3.5.
ETA: Here's a purple thread quoting Monte - not the original source, but I certainly remember reading this on another site: https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/all-d-d-3-5-conspiracy-theories-are-true-monte-cook-tells-all.60043/
ETAA: Here's an archive.org from Monte's own site, with the same info from the purple thread: https://web.archive.org/web/20030806073440/http://www.montecook.com/review.html
Quote from: Chris24601;1094831If my niece, goddaughters and godsons and their game choices are any indication 6e would have anime-style artwork and a building-block style approach to character building.
An Anime Fantasy RPG would probably do well today.
I like the Race / Class / Background building block idea. In fact, I've been playing around with an OSR version of that (but not anime).
Quote from: Red Death;1094802(Probable) 6e - Twitter told us we had to.
Welcome aboard Red Death!!
BTW, are you a fan of the old Masque of Red Death setting? If so, start a thread about it! Or anything else that interests you!
Quote from: Red Death;1094802Arguably the only editions that were necessary were 2e (at least according to TSR), to clean up 1e, and 5e, to fix the sales disaster that was 4e.
My personal observations on why each edition came to be, at least from TSR/WotC's perspective:
1e - We need unified rules for tournaments, plus Dave Arneson shouldn't get any more royalties.
2e - The rules need cleanup, Gary Gygax shouldn't get any more royalties, and we need to sanitize everything to keep the religious people off our backs.
3e - We want to wash away the bad taste TSR left. Plus 2e became a bloated mess.
3.5e - With this much crunch of course we need to clean things up. Plus we need to remind all the D20 people who's boss.
4e - We fucked up with the OGL, but nobody cares because they're all busy playing WoW.
5e - We really fucked up with 4e. We need to make both the Pathfinder people and Grognards happy.
(Probable) 6e - Twitter told us we had to.
You forgot 4e Essentials - We fucked up with 4e but maybe this evergreen product will win back the Gnards.
Quote from: Shasarak;1094840You forgot 4e Essentials - We fucked up with 4e but maybe this evergreen product will win back the Gnards.
And instead mostly just ticked off the fans of 4E they did have.
While several 4E fans I knew hated Essentials, I didn't mind it. My gaming circle was pretty small at the time due to life so companion PCs was a thing for us (i.e. 2-3 players running a primary and second PC to cover all the party roles) and the simpler classes from Essentials made that a lot easier to do (Knight and Thief filled the Defender and Striker roles and the stealth/find and remove traps skill holes) while still having the level of performance needed.
Quote from: Shasarak;1094840You forgot 4e Essentials - We fucked up with 4e but maybe this evergreen product will win back the Gnards.
More/also: "Let's launch a core product line for bookstores to know what to stock and sell!"
*Bottom falls out of the bookstore market right after release.*
Quote from: Spinachcat;1094837Welcome aboard Red Death!!
BTW, are you a fan of the old Masque of Red Death setting? If so, start a thread about it! Or anything else that interests you!
Thanks! The name/avatar is from The Venture Bros. I have looked at the Masque of the Red Death setting, but I have not as yet had a chance to really dive in or play it. One of these days though.
Quote from: Shasarak;1094840You forgot 4e Essentials - We fucked up with 4e but maybe this evergreen product will win back the Gnards.
I did overlook 4e Essentials by mistake. It does seem like the genesis for 5e though, since a fair amount of 4e concepts survived into 5e, just with better names and implementations. And I believe Mike Mearls get bumped to lead designer starting with Essentials?
5e has the problem of mechanically falling apart before mid levels and it doesn't seem intentional to me.
Quote from: Rhedyn;10948735e has the problem of mechanically falling apart before mid levels and it doesn't seem intentional to me.
What do you consider mechanically falling apart?
I think he means that all the classes operate kinda similarly.
Which is kinda true. It's the same with the D&D Races, they're not all very varied and are only aesthetic.
Howdy new members! :)
Quote from: DeadUematsu;1094876What do you consider mechanically falling apart?
It becomes difficult to actually challenge 5e PCs without a lot of attrition or creating impossible scenarios. "Combat as sport" becomes a chore to pull off.
I also feel like the HP bloat prevents "combat as war" from being fun or exciting at higher levels.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1094897It becomes difficult to actually challenge 5e PCs without a lot of attrition or creating impossible scenarios. "Combat as sport" becomes a chore to pull off.
I also feel like the HP bloat prevents "combat as war" from being fun or exciting at higher levels.
I mean, you could increase enemy damage as a band-aid, but I kinda see what you mean.
Translated, what he really means is that it does something different than what he wants it to do. He confuses this with "mechanically falls apart".
The way things are looking, Pathfinder 2E is probably going to influence D&D 6E in the same way a cautionary tale would
D&D 5E is solid and ironclad as a system despite its flaws and it is popular enough across the board that it will likely be in production until at least 2024.
I'm guessing 2024 since it would be a good year release the Sixth Edition to celebrate the 50th Anniversary of D&D and the 10th Anniversary of 5th Edition, or at the very least, they'd announce that 6E is in the works.
By 2024, Trump Derangement Syndrome won't be a thing since he will either be out of office or on his way out.
Chances are that by 2024 the cultural pendulum will have swung back against the SJW culture of the 2010's enough to the point that we won't see dumb shit about gender pronouns, tokenism passed off as diversity, or cringe filled rants about how white males are the Devil.
Heck, we still got a little under six months left in this miserable decade and we're already starting to see a major backlash against SJW culture with the uproar over Andy Ngo and innocent men like Vic Mignogna and the Covington Catholic boys fighting back against the commie punks by suing their asses and taking those punk-ass neon-haired bitches to court.
Even major Democrat leaders are finally officially denouncing Antifa and the SJW mob mentality, including major 2020 candidates like Joe Biden. Then there's the Project Veritas leaks providing a goldmine of incriminating evidence for the DOJ to use against the techno-commissars who run Google.
I know we shouldn't talk about politics in the gaming forum, but I am bringing this stuff up because it's important to realize that a lot more people are getting sick of the SJW takeover of our culture and there is a growing backlash. Even with the current SJW climate at WOTC and Gen Con right now, they're reined in mainly because WOTC are a subsidiary of Hasbro.
Hasbro are not "true believers" like Onyx Path or Paizo are, they can't afford to be.
Paizo only got successful and became the second-biggest RPG publisher (and the only one besides WOTC with a consistently visible presence in regular bookstores) because of how badly WOTC dropped the ball with D&D 4E and how the OGL allowed them to make a successful official retro-clone of D&D 3.5 in Pathfinder 1E (even if the game drifted further away from 3.5 as it went along)
Hasbro cares about the bottom dollar first and foremost, and they know that "Get Woke, Go Broke" is being proven more and more every day. And they're not going to let D&D die on the vine if 6E goes woke (like Paradox did to White Wolf when V5 turned into a pretentious wokepunk shitshow) since D&D is still a viable brand and still has a presence in pop culture (especially in the wake of 5E) unlike World of Darkness, which was dead for the most part (although the 20th Anniversary Editions were successful, it was a far smaller success than 5E)
Even with their more profitable IP's taken into account, the fact is that they struck gold in the 2010's with both MTG and the very unexpected resurgence of D&D.
Even if 5E's success is a drop in the bucket compared to their other IP's, the higher-ups at Hasbro are still impressed with how well 5E turned out and how it led to a revitalization of the hobby, which digital self-publishing is helping out.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1094914Translated, what he really means is that it does something different than what he wants it to do. He confuses this with "mechanically falls apart".
And what does mid-high level 5e do well?
Quote from: Rhedyn;1094917And what does mid-high level 5e do well?
Hit points. Hundreds of hit points. Hit points everywhere...
Honestly closer we get to release more I think PF2E is going to have somewhere between little to no impact. I mean is it just me or outside of there own forums no one is really talking about it at all? compare that to there first edition where people were talking about it all over both in support and in the "this is gonna crash and burn" sense this time theres just...........nothing not even bad mouthing (Which is a really bad sign since any publicity is good publicity and all that)
Quote from: Rhedyn;1094917And what does mid-high level 5e do well?
I'm not going to argue with you about it. You are a broken record on the subject and clearly not subject to reason. But about once every 1,000 times you repeat it (I exaggerate only slightly), I'm going to disagree with you. Consider your next several hundred complaints of that nature to be free and clear.
If someone else wants to talk about it when you aren't around, I'll consider it.
Quote from: Kevin197;1094919Honestly closer we get to release more I think PF2E is going to have somewhere between little to no impact. I mean is it just me or outside of there own forums no one is really talking about it at all? compare that to there first edition where people were talking about it all over both in support and in the "this is gonna crash and burn" sense this time theres just...........nothing not even bad mouthing (Which is a really bad sign since any publicity is good publicity and all that)
That is a good idea actually!
Quote from: Kevin197;1094919Honestly closer we get to release more I think PF2E is going to have somewhere between little to no impact. I mean is it just me or outside of there own forums no one is really talking about it at all? compare that to there first edition where people were talking about it all over both in support and in the "this is gonna crash and burn" sense this time theres just...........nothing not even bad mouthing (Which is a really bad sign since any publicity is good publicity and all that)
Yeah that is a sign that it will crash and burn. No one is talking about it and thus there is no passion to drive anyone to buy it.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1094922If someone else wants to talk about it when you aren't around, I'll consider it.
I have no opinion on the mechanical viability of higher-level 5e, aside from usual complaints that the spell system is bonkers at higher levels, which is true of pretty much every edition.
So I'd be curious as to your opinion regarding what higher-level 5e does well.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1094931Yeah that is a sign that it will crash and burn. No one is talking about it and thus there is no passion to drive anyone to buy it.
It will be a massive volume, with great artwork, that will look good on a bookshelf. I anticipate that several, if not many YouTube RPG reviewers will turn out 20 - 40 minute review videos of PF2E; especially for the Core Rulebook. Primarily, because it will be the big, shiny, new thing in August, 2019.
Quote from: Razor 007;1094945It will be a massive volume, with great artwork, that will look good on a bookshelf. I anticipate that several, if not many YouTube RPG reviewers will turn out 20 - 40 minute review videos of PF2E; especially for the Core Rulebook. Primarily, because it will be the big, shiny, new thing in August, 2019.
I will counter that with honest reviewers pointing out how much of a joke this game really is.
Does anyone else smell sour grapes?
Just me?
Actually I am not sour. I had looked into the preview and saw for the feat cluster fuck that it is. It won't sell other than to people who like to show off their rpg books, but don't bother to play them. I honestly feel sorry for any GM who runs this game as he has to constantly check in the book to make the correct rulings.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1094931Yeah that is a sign that it will crash and burn. No one is talking about it and thus there is no passion to drive anyone to buy it.
In the days before social media blew up, I bought many games without ever hearing much about them. They were on a shelf, I looked it over, and I bought it if I though it might be interesting. I still do it this way even though the "shelf" has become the new releases page on CoolStuffInc. I really don't care much at all for how much/little press a product has or who's talking about it.
Also another thing I've noticed that is potentually a bad sign for PF2E is on there customer service page is the number of subscription cancellations happening (For context usually you would have one or two a month but now it's dozens in the last month or two and it's not accounting for people who cancel via email or notes.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1094922I'm not going to argue with you about it. You are a broken record on the subject and clearly not subject to reason. But about once every 1,000 times you repeat it (I exaggerate only slightly), I'm going to disagree with you. Consider your next several hundred complaints of that nature to be free and clear.
If someone else wants to talk about it when you aren't around, I'll consider it.
Ah OK, you are just blowing hot air.
Quote from: JeremyR;1094724Was 2e the longest lasting edition? 1e went from 77 to 89. 2e went from 89 to 2000. Though there was some overlap between 1e and 2e, with 1e staying in print until 1990
OD&D lasted 3 years and lived on as B then BX, so technically about 6-7 years. But there was apparently alot of legal battling involved as evidenced in various print revisions of AD&D and BX on it drifts more and more away from OD&D.
AD&D is in a way OD&D with tons of Dragon articles collected. But pretty much becomes its own thing. That lasted about 12 years and 2e is AD&D with only a few tweaks originally. Alot of the text is the exact same.
2e lasted about 12 years as well and probably would have kept on chugging along had TSR not killed themselves off. We'll never know.
3e lasted a mere 3 years. Probably would have lasted 5 if things had gone differently.
3.5 lasted 5 years.
4e lasted about 6 years, but was on the way out by 5.
5e has now lasted 5 years. So too soon yet to see if WOTC will slit their own wrists just to make sacrifice to the great god 5 year plan.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1094897It becomes difficult to actually challenge 5e PCs without a lot of attrition or creating impossible scenarios. "Combat as sport" becomes a chore to pull off.
I also feel like the HP bloat prevents "combat as war" from being fun or exciting at higher levels.
I haven't really seen this at all, and I GM at level 20 a fair bit. Saturday online game had a good fight between level 19-20 party and spellcasting ancient blue dragon the players loved.
I guess I do Combat as War, and I tend to use the average damage numbers at high level to keep things moving.
Quote from: Shasarak;1094963Does anyone else smell sour grapes?
Just me?
If that was in reply to me, I have zero emotional investment in the success or failure of PF2E. I'm just engaging in academic dialogue, on a subject of at least short term significance to the RPG community.
I have lots of PF1E material, and I have very little interest in their future releases; which will be incompatible with my current PF material. I guess if they release some nice gaming mats / maps, those would be interesting?
Quote from: S'mon;1095007I haven't really seen this at all, and I GM at level 20 a fair bit. Saturday online game had a good fight between level 19-20 party and spellcasting ancient blue dragon the players loved.
I guess I do Combat as War, and I tend to use the average damage numbers at high level to keep things moving.
Maybe you are the exception, but so far everyone that's said this to me also creates custom monsters for their high level party.
I wouldn't consider using the spellcasting optional rule for a stock blue dragon to be a "custom monster" so that would count.
The reason I care: I think 5e's combat problems come more from the monster manual than the PH. I've heard many reports of a good time using Kobold Press's Tome of Beasts (I would consider a 3rd party bestiary equivalent to custom monsters).
Quote from: Rhedyn;1094980Ah OK, you are just blowing hot air.
I also don't waste my time arguing with people that have reading comprehension issues.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1095014Maybe you are the exception, but so far everyone that's said this to me also creates custom monsters for their high level party.
I wouldn't consider using the spellcasting optional rule for a stock blue dragon to be a "custom monster" so that would count.
The reason I care: I think 5e's combat problems come more from the monster manual than the PH. I've heard many reports of a good time using Kobold Press's Tome of Beasts (I would consider a 3rd party bestiary equivalent to custom monsters).
Thats cause imo, the monster manual is made for wimps. Most of the mobsters arent made to be threatening, but to wittle down a party of many, many enocounters, eveb bosses are meant to be the 8th encounter after seven mook encounters.
Quote from: Shasarak;1094840You forgot 4e Essentials - We fucked up with 4e but maybe this evergreen product will win back the Gnards.
I thought the purpose of 4E Essentials was to keep Mearls employed? 4E was dead at this point and these were released in bad faith: A proper revised set of Core Rule books - 4.5E, if you will - would have better served the 4E fan base. Personally, all I wanted was a revised PHB with all the errata included. Instead I got these tiny little books which looked like they belonged to a different game. (BTW, I actually liked quite a few of the Essentials classes.)
It should also be noted that, at the time he presided over Essentials, Mearls wasn't even running a 4E campaign....
Quote from: Rhedyn;1095014Maybe you are the exception, but so far everyone that's said this to me also creates custom monsters for their high level party.
I wouldn't consider using the spellcasting optional rule for a stock blue dragon to be a "custom monster" so that would count.
The reason I care: I think 5e's combat problems come more from the monster manual than the PH. I've heard many reports of a good time using Kobold Press's Tome of Beasts (I would consider a 3rd party bestiary equivalent to custom monsters).
I don't generally create custom monsters from scratch, but I convert monsters in Pathfinder APs. I occasionally use Tome of Beasts and other third party sources especially for Mythos critters, but I'm mostly using Krakens, Glabrezu, Ancient dragons etc from the Monster Manual.
Good long fight yesteday between a level 8-10 party backed up by NPC soldiers and an army of 34 CR 2 Draugr & their CR 8 Frost Corpse leader (& a hydra) from Primeval Thule Campaign Setting.
The MM creatures do tend to be fairly weak, but the design issues are nowhere near as serious as in the 4e MM. After 5th level you can pretty much treat 5e CR as if it were 4e CR, ie a creature of CR X is a moderate encounter for ONE PC of CR X.