Quote from: nDervish;1064506This is all predicated on the idea that the dungeon is being built for a specific party of specific characters of specific levels.

What happens when you create a dungeon which exists independently of any particular party, and isn't expected to be entered at any particular time, so you don't know what the relative level will be and can't calculate an appropriate XP budget?  How do you "build balanced encounters" when you don't know at the time the dungeon is populated whether it will be discovered and entered by three 1st-level characters or five 12th-level characters?

Allow me the counter of "Who the fuck not living in their parent's basement has the free time to design all these dungeons they never expect to see the light of day until some undetermined point in the future?"

I design dungeons because I expect the current party in the campaign to be going into them in the very near future (i.e. the next session or the session after that if they get sidetracked). If there are other dungeons on the current map the PCs are aware of I'll have notes of what the PCs know about them so that if they ever do head in those directions I can have something built that doesn't contradict those notes (or contradicts it in ways that make sense) for the session they get there.

I think you've got some serious rose-colored glasses on where you're transposing the amount of free time you had as a teenager to do that level of design work for the sort of level-agnostic dungeons you describe onto adults who really do not have anything like the amount of time required to do that. When you're juggling a job, kids, taking care of aging parents, church, etc. just finding a free hour or two to prep an adventure for game night is a luxury.

I'd also suggest that if you want something where you want level agnostic dungeons that you pick a system with a much flatter progression curve than ANY edition of D&D. Because dropping a random CR 12 monster into a dungeon there's a chance level 1 PCs may be adventuring in is just an exercise in futility, particularly if the CR 12 critter can outrun the PCs in addition to dropping a PC with each hit.

"I decided a Chimera lived in this dungeon next to the small hamlet you grew up in and from which you launched your first adventure... everyone roll up new PCs for next time" is crap DM work and always will be.

Quote from: Chris24601;1064516"I decided a Chimera lived in this dungeon next to the small hamlet you grew up in and from which you launched your first adventure... everyone roll up new PCs for next time" is crap DM work and always will be.

That probably is a crap DM job, but not because of a lack of encounter building.  (Well, not automatically.  It is bad encounter building, too, in a game with those expectations, but that is not all it is.)  It's crap from a "naturalistic" perspective because it doesn't explain why the hamlet is still in existence, and thus even for a group of experienced players with new characters in a sandbox game, is not giving them a fair shake.  

We know the chimera is tough--whether due to the system giving us a semi-solid means of estimating toughness or through DM experience.  Therefore, in a naturalistic game, if it has been in the area for some time, there will be evidence of it.  Thus players that make an effort to scout and think will probably try to avoid it.

Quote from: Chris24601;1064516Allow me the counter of "Who the fuck not living in their parent's basement has the free time to design all these dungeons they never expect to see the light of day until some undetermined point in the future?"

This is why I prefer to buy stuff. With Michael Curtis' Stonehell Dungeon alone I have a couple thousand dungeon rooms and material for lots of different PC groups of level 1 to 10+. But I also have lots of other placed dungeons PCs can go to.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1064527That probably is a crap DM job, but not because of a lack of encounter building.  (Well, not automatically.  It is bad encounter building, too, in a game with those expectations, but that is not all it is.)  It's crap from a "naturalistic" perspective because it doesn't explain why the hamlet is still in existence, and thus even for a group of experienced players with new characters in a sandbox game, is not giving them a fair shake.  

We know the chimera is tough--whether due to the system giving us a semi-solid means of estimating toughness or through DM experience.  Therefore, in a naturalistic game, if it has been in the area for some time, there will be evidence of it.  Thus players that make an effort to scout and think will probably try to avoid it.

Yeah the chimera beside the starter town is fine if the PCs have an opportunity to know of it and that it needs to be avoided. In fact having such stuff early on can be useful to immediately break the 'balanced encounter' mentality.

Quote from: S'mon;1064543Yeah the chimera beside the starter town is fine if the PCs have an opportunity to know of it and that it needs to be avoided. In fact having such stuff early on can be useful to immediately break the 'balanced encounter' mentality.

I've done that, with the tarrasque.

You want to fight it? Go right ahead, callow fighter. I won't stop you. I'll even roll dice.

Quote from: Itachi;1064412Heh. You're actually agreeing with me here.

See, the games people usually refer to as Storygames around here are the likes of Fate, Apocalypse World, Cortex, Burning Wheel, etc which are played primarily in actor and author stances. None of those have director stance (that is, directly editing stories) as a prominent mode of play.

And I totally agree with you on Stances characterizing the type of game.

Crazy, I've never agreed with someone on the internet before
Cheers!

QuoteSo, when I place a hill giant family in hex 1234 and a party of 1st-levels wander into that hex, they assume "this wouldn't be here it if wasn't level-appropriate - CHAAAAAAARGE!!!" and then cry and accuse the GM of "cheating" or being a "killer DM" when the giants (predictably) TPK them.

This is the real problem, the one I feel has been enculturated by video games. They expect the world to adjust itself to their level.  Think back to common thieves wearing glass armor in Oblivion.

Of course it's useful to have a decent estimate of how powerful a monster is (in 5e, a CR N monster is typically capable of knocking out an Nth-level wizard in 1 round, so at least it's something). But I hate the player expectation that if they come over a rise to see a giant eating sheep, with a shepherd hollering in the distance, I must have scaled the giant down to their level.

Quote from: Chris24601;1064516"I decided a Chimera lived in this dungeon next to the small hamlet you grew up in and from which you launched your first adventure... everyone roll up new PCs for next time" is crap DM work and always will be.

This is a strawman. If I put a Chimera in a dungeon, there is some way of finding out that he's there, or at least that the dungeon is full of excessively scary things, besides charging in and dying.

I barely prepare at all. I have tons of modules, adventure compilations, random tables, and the like, that I pull stuff from. I once rolled an encounter with 50 trolls. The party was level 3. So I put 50 trolls in a destroyed village deep in a nearby forest, and had 1d4 of them attack the party, who had to cast off gold and rations to escape.

The key to running campaigns where the world doesn't adjust itself to the players is to give the players the means to assess a threat and avoid it if it outclasses them. Just having a flight of white dragons randomly show up and eat them isn't what anyone is talking about.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1064719This is the real problem, the one I feel has been enculturated by video games.

I would say videogames are so wide and diversified a medium at this point that saying that doesn't really say anything. While there's a parcel of games that follow the logic you criticize, there are others which do not.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1064721The key to running campaigns where the world doesn't adjust itself to the players is to give the players the means to assess a threat and avoid it if it outclasses them. Just having a flight of white dragons randomly show up and eat them isn't what anyone is talking about.

Sure. I think the argument is that the GM is still modulating the content based on the character's levels. Giving ample warning and clues about a lame kobold mushroom farmer is not nearly as important as warning the players about the ancient red dragon that lives in the mountain pass.
It would be perfectly serendipitous for said dragon to mistake the party of 1st level characters for the party that just stole his gem, and go gunning for them full bore, no prisoners. But I doubt any GM would find that kind of scenario appropriate for their level.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1064735Sure. I think the argument is that the GM is still modulating the content based on the character's levels.

Hmm. I tend to give warnings of powerful monsters regardless of PC level. Exception would be in a megadungeon where level depth already keys to threat level.

I think the thing with high level PCs is that they tend to generate powerful enemies - THAT is when the 3 Assassins or the ancient red dragon may attack them unannounced. But usually the 20th level PCs still have to go seek out the high level monster foe, who they will usually have heard lots of stories about beforehand.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1064735It would be perfectly serendipitous for said dragon to mistake the party of 1st level characters for the party that just stole his gem, and go gunning for them full bore, no prisoners. But I doubt any GM would find that kind of scenario appropriate for their level.

If the 1st level PCs encountered an adult red dragon IMC I'd probably roll a 2d6 reaction check - if I got a 2 - Hostile - then I'd interpret it something like your suggestion, back luck PCs. But the chances of any PCs just randomly running into an adult red dragon is pretty low - big monsters have a big footprint.

Quote from: S'mon;1064744Hmm. I tend to give warnings of powerful monsters regardless of PC level. Exception would be in a megadungeon where level depth already keys to threat level.

I think the thing with high level PCs is that they tend to generate powerful enemies - THAT is when the 3 Assassins or the ancient red dragon may attack them unannounced. But usually the 20th level PCs still have to go seek out the high level monster foe, who they will usually have heard lots of stories about beforehand.

Me too.  I even take it to the next fun step:  Some creatures and organizations are deliberately full of bluster, and thus set out to create the impression that they are more capable than they are.  One of the very best things about breaking the "encounter appropriate" mindset is not setting up the PC kill.  You could do that anytime.  When you get them to run in terror from something that they could easily handle?  Gold, Jerry, Gold!   Sometimes it happens almost by accident.

The pinnacle was when I had them running from a werewolf.  They completed two adventures and were well on their way to finishing a third, over about 20 hours of play and weeks of game time. The whole time they were spooked by found remains (not all from the werewolf's victims), distant howling, seeing the werewolf in the distance, and the hysterical ravings of some NPC guards that had blown the threat all out of proportion.  The werewolf had been hired by one of their many enemies, but the party stayed on the move.  When the werewolf finally cornered them in a small dungeon, they were convinced they were dead.  After one anti-climatic round of ranged combat, the players were a bit miffed.  "I can't believe we've been dodging this guy for days!"

I had a party TPK themselves when they decided to wade into a nest of wyverns. Not softening them up with ranged attacks first, just wade into melee. Because "Obviously Dave wouldn't have put them there if we weren't supposed to be able to kill them."  Wrong. Dave put the wyverns there because it was a wyvern nesting ground.  They spotted the beast from far enough away that they could easily have avoided them.

I don't do "challenge ratings". Things are where they are because that is where it makes sense in the world for them to be. Monsters do leave spoor. Monster den is quite likely to have the remains of victims near it. It may be a wolf kill or may be a dragon kill. To have a chance at determining which examine the remains. Is it a deer, an elephant, or several armored knights?

The crippled old kobold will leave kobold tracks. Of course there is always a slight chance that he is also a powerful shaman or wizard.  This is why it can be a good idea to talk to intelligent creatures when you encounter them.  It helps that I give experience for "monsters overcome", not just for "monsters killed".  If you manage to talk your way past the monster, or sneak past it and rob its treasure I believe you should earn experience.  Not all characters are Fighting Men after all.

I tell people about how the game works before we play. In a sandbox fantasy game, you can die if you poke the wrong bear. I don't customize to character capability. And as stated above by several of you savvy GMs; I give them clues, foreshadowing and plenty of opportunity to figure out what is going on. The whole kick in the door, kill shit we is supposed to kill, get the pie... does NOT appeal to me. Also, why not just play a video game that does that WAY better? Could you imagine Frodo's quest buffed into a "level appropriate quest"?

"You must destroy the ring Frodo"

"But how?"

"You must wrestle that chicken and force it to swallow the ring. It's belly contains the fires of Mordor!"

"Whew. I thought I was going to have to go somewhere."