A lot of role-playings use Dex as a measure of quickness, balance, coordination and weapon precision. Last week-end, after a session at the shooting range, I started to doubt about the latter.

I'm very clumsy in almost all my life activities. In D&D terms I probably have a Dex of 8 - or even 7. However, for example, since when I was in high-school I always has been a sharp-shooter.

When we played basketball, for example, I was literally unable to run with the ball. But every year I scored more 3 points than any other member of the team and I was always among the top scorer. When passing, it came natural to me to see a teammate and place the ball exactly where he was running - sometimes flatfooting the defence by bouncing the ball against the floor. It just came natural.

Last week it was the third time in all my life that I shoot a gun - and still, after a first round of "warming up", I scored more than people who shoot every other week or so (just don't ask me to reload the gun quickly - harm to bystanders could ensue). The range owner couldn't believe that it was only the third time that I shoot with a gun.

Next time I'll try with a bow.

So, it appears obvious to me that I do have another "characteristic" beside Dex. A character with an high Dex can pull out and nock an arrow faster than me - but this is not enough. As I said, I firmly believe to have Dex 7-8 - so there is no way, for me, to be correctly portrayed in, for example, D&D. IM(not so H)O, precision should be tied to Int: To me it always came natural to build a tridimensional "mind picture" (which can include people/objects in motion) and then act so to place something in a certain point - and I always felt that this kind of skill comes from the mind, not from the body.

Thoughts?

Quote from: 1E DMG pg 15Dexterity: The dexterity rating includes the following physical characteristics: hand-eye coordination, agility, reflex speed, precision, balance, and actual speed of movement in running. It would not be unreasonable to claim that a person with a low dexterity might well be quite agile, but have low reflex speed, poor precision, bad balance, and be slow of foot (but slippery in the grasp).

I think your accuracy was envisioned as the sort of thing that even a low dex character could have, as opposed to being evenly worthless in all things dexterity-related.

Don't know about the mix, but Perception--or at least some subset of it--is also immensely important.  You can't hit what you can't see, especially if you eyes are playing tricks on you (such as with my lousy depth perception in most lighting conditions).

You started with D&D so I will say that I think there are more or different attributes used in other systems and it makes a lot of sense sometimes. I would say D&D could benefit from a bit more expanded system too.

Things that often are attributes elsewhere:

Luck, Agility, Speed, Perception, Power (Magic one usually), Precision (or in a Hungarian game 'Focus').

Cutting a possibly long post down to the important part: I think you would either have additional Speed and Precision, or maybe Luck as attribute.

Perception and Precision is often combined for games such as Fallout (SPECIAL) or get thrown in as a skill (D&D). Although I see the benefit of that I don't think a Sherlock would be so much better at archery only because a great perception.

In D&D precision is mostly depending on your class and level due to the given attack bonus and the system effectively lacks the option to have a Speed focused character as well.

I believe Traveller has a system where characters might have different/additional attributes depending on species and/or origin.

Dexterity in D&D covers alot of things. You can have a clumbsy character whos deadly accurate with a bow. And can walk a tightrope when needed. They just arent dexterous outside certain activities. You can role-play your character however you want.

@OP Yeah, I'm the same as you - terrible coordination, poor agility, mediocre fine motor skills... And I'm a very good shot. My hand-eye coordination, apparently, is good.

Some games do separate Skill, used for shooting, from Agility used for dodging - my homebrew does. Other games have Level for Skill.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1012265Don't know about the mix, but Perception--or at least some subset of it--is also immensely important.  You can't hit what you can't see, especially if you eyes are playing tricks on you (such as with my lousy depth perception in most lighting conditions).

True... But I don't even have good eyesight, but when I shot I seemed to shoot better than the other reservists on the range. Even when I had to take my glasses off to shoot wearing the NBC mask! Of course visibility was good & it was static targets. Mind you in night fighting I seemed to detect enemies better, too - by silhouette, no detail needed.

Quote from: joriandrake;1012266In D&D precision is mostly depending on your class and level due to the given attack bonus and the system effectively lacks the option to have a Speed focused character as well.

Older D&D did not have a level based "attack bonus" but the to hit tables had the same effect with higher level characters needing progressively lower numbers to hit the same armour class.  This could have a larger impact on ability to score a hit than modifiers for physical characteristics (Strength or Dexterity).

That'd be because dexterity is different from hand-eye coordination.

DEX (like other attributes) is an abstract shorthand for multiple qualities. Some games like to spec them all out in more/less detail than others.

Glad you found you have a nice skill.

This points out the problem with most game systems relying on a single stat to provide bonuses. Cutting a diamond, shooting a gun and walking a tightrope have little in common but most games would give all a bonus based on dexterity / agility. Figured stats based on one or more primary stats address this but have typically not been a popular mechanic.

Quote from: Dumarest;1012290That'd be because dexterity is different from hand-eye coordination.

Going strictly by how RPGs have traditionally used the term though I would agree with your comment. RPGs started off with the wrong word a long time ago and it has stuck.

The dictionary definition of dexterity specifically suggests hand eye coordination. Agility is a better word for the whole body coordination that most games assume but call Dex.

I have encountered games that had both Agility and Dexterity. I can't recall which of the many games I have encountered they were.

Quote from: S'mon;1012274True... But I don't even have good eyesight, but when I shot I seemed to shoot better than the other reservists on the range. Even when I had to take my glasses off to shoot wearing the NBC mask! Of course visibility was good & it was static targets. Mind you in night fighting I seemed to detect enemies better, too - by silhouette, no detail needed.

My depth perception is so bad that I see things in a different place than they are, and it gets worse with distance.  I think the D&D displacer beast effect must have some origin in a person who sees as I do.    Drove the PE teachers crazy when they tried to get me to catch a pop fly in softball.

Is this a competition?
I have 8-dioptre glasses and even those aren't ideal. Do I win?

Quote from: Reckall;1012261A lot of role-playings use Dex as a measure of quickness, balance, coordination and weapon precision. Last week-end, after a session at the shooting range, I started to doubt about the latter.

I'm very clumsy in almost all my life activities. In D&D terms I probably have a Dex of 8 - or even 7. However, for example, since when I was in high-school I always has been a sharp-shooter.

When we played basketball, for example, I was literally unable to run with the ball. But every year I scored more 3 points than any other member of the team and I was always among the top scorer. When passing, it came natural to me to see a teammate and place the ball exactly where he was running - sometimes flatfooting the defence by bouncing the ball against the floor. It just came natural.

Last week it was the third time in all my life that I shoot a gun - and still, after a first round of "warming up", I scored more than people who shoot every other week or so (just don't ask me to reload the gun quickly - harm to bystanders could ensue). The range owner couldn't believe that it was only the third time that I shoot with a gun.

Next time I'll try with a bow.

So, it appears obvious to me that I do have another "characteristic" beside Dex. A character with an high Dex can pull out and nock an arrow faster than me - but this is not enough. As I said, I firmly believe to have Dex 7-8 - so there is no way, for me, to be correctly portrayed in, for example, D&D. IM(not so H)O, precision should be tied to Int: To me it always came natural to build a tridimensional "mind picture" (which can include people/objects in motion) and then act so to place something in a certain point - and I always felt that this kind of skill comes from the mind, not from the body.

Thoughts?

You have good intelligence is all.