By the d20 glut I mean the phenomenon we had a few years back when everyone seemed to be bringing out d20 conversions, supplements, adventures and whatnot, many of them not very good.

There was a bandwagon rolling and a lot of people jumped onto it, people with no real history of game design released d20 books (often in pdf form) of very variable quality.  The market was flooded with d20 stuff, as everyone tried to get in on it, the result was a crash in part because it became difficult for consumers to wade through it all to get to the good stuff.

What has this to do with indie gaming?  Quite a lot I think, increasingly in indie gaming circles the idea is becoming popular that everyone with a concept for a game should design an rpg about that concept, no matter how narrow.  People want to be indie designers, and even if their concept could easily be an adventure in some other system or just something run with their group, it becomes an indie rpg design and gets added to the stock of indie rpgs out there.

The designing of indie rpgs is being encouraged as an end in its own right, with a variety of indie competitions incentivising people to find ideas so they can create a new indie rpg.  The driving force is often not that someone has an idea for an rpg that cannot be met by an existing game, but that someone wants to be an indie rpg designer and so creates an indie rpg to meet that need.

The result is a glut of indie rpgs, just like the d20 glut, increasing difficulty in telling the good from the bad and increasingly a risk of a bit of a crash in the indie rpg market.  A risk that is disguised by the common habit in the indie scene of designers buying, though frequently not ever playing, each other's games.

Thoughts?  Am I totally off base?  It seems to me the current setup has similarities to the d20 one and similar effects, a lot of people producing games that nobody or hardly anybody ever actually plays and in the process making it harder to find the real gems.

Yeah - look at story games where everyone talks about their own games and no one comments on anyone elses.

Forge Heartbreaker - get that phrase warmed up - your gonna use it.

Quote from: BalbinusThe designing of indie rpgs is being encouraged as an end in its own right, with a variety of indie competitions incentivising people to find ideas so they can create a new indie rpg.

ARRRGH! You're VERBING, Balbinus!

As to your real question, probably. There are a lot of vanity games out there in a small marketplace.

-clash

Quote from: Erik BoielleYeah - look at story games where everyone talks about their own games and no one comments on anyone elses.

Forge Heartbreaker - get that phrase warmed up - your gonna use it.

Is it that bad at Storygames?  I don't really post there anymore, though I have a certain fondness for the place, I hadn't realised you were there.

Forge Heartbreaker I think is a real phenomenon, but I prefer to use heartbreaker only in the context of fantasy where it was originally coined and where I think it has a fairly clear meaning.  That said, definitely.

Quote from: flyingmiceARRRGH! You're VERBING, Balbinus!

As to your real question, probably. There are a lot of vanity games out there in a small marketplace.

-clash

In my defence, I am under the weather and have been off ill for a few days (nothing serious), hence my appalling error in verbing.  Sorry about that.

Quote from: BalbinusIn my defence, I am under the weather and have been off ill for a few days (nothing serious), hence my appalling error in verbing.  Sorry about that.

OK, we'll let you go with a warning this time...

-clash

Quote from: Balbinus*snip*
The result is a glut of indie rpgs, just like the d20 glut, increasing difficulty in telling the good from the bad and increasingly a risk of a bit of a crash in the indie rpg market.  A risk that is disguised by the common habit in the indie scene of designers buying, though frequently not ever playing, each other's games.

Thoughts?  Am I totally off base?  It seems to me the current setup has similarities to the d20 one and similar effects, a lot of people producing games that nobody or hardly anybody ever actually plays and in the process making it harder to find the real gems.

I think that an actual "crash" in the indie game market if it happens will be a different animal than the D20 one. The games may be numerous, but they're not really connected to each other. The market is fragmented, so any kind of crash would simply be a bunch of indie games suddenly going out of print at the few storefronts that carry them while the more successful games will carry on as if nothing has happened and that will be it. No stores or distributors will close because "Deep Issues: The Storygame" and "Pudding and Pardners" goes belly up.

Quote from: JamesVI think that an actual "crash" in the indie game market if it happens will be a different animal than the D20 one. The games may be numerous, but they're not really connected to each other. The market is fragmented, so any kind of crash would simply be a bunch of indie games suddenly going out of print at the few storefronts that carry them while the more successful games will carry on as if nothing has happened and that will be it. No stores or distributors will close because "Deep Issues: The Storygame" and "Pudding and Pardners" goes belly up.

True, the only people really affected will be those already into indie gaming, but that doesn't make it any more desirable as an outcome.

Quote from: BalbinusTrue, the only people really affected will be those already into indie gaming, but that doesn't make it any more desirable as an outcome.

Also true. I just wanted to say that I think any such crash will have a limited ripple effect. I think most indie game makers are fairly realistic about the level of success they'll have with their games, so I kinda think/hope that even the effects on the people themselves will be small too.

They all publish because they want their "groovy card" punched, because that's all gaming is about to them; a chance to get some kind of weird sick psychological fulfullment by pretending to be doing really deep important radical stuff... instead of, you know, going out and doing that stuff.

Oh, and I don't really see how there could be an "indie crash". To have a crash you have to have a market first.

What there will be is an eventual end of certain more mainstream group's and people's sense of respect for the "indie revolution" and the Forge. At least, I can really hope that will be the result.

RPGPundit

Quote from: BalbinusTrue, the only people really affected will be those already into indie gaming, but that doesn't make it any more desirable as an outcome.

On the contrary, I think a pretty thorough extinction in the market could be a very good thing in many ways.  It would, I think, shake out a fair number of people who have good intentions but lousy business plans.

Yes, it's hard-hearted of me, but I think that some people making examples of themselves could help later developers to realize that business is an art unto itself, and one that they should develop at least a rudimentary understanding of if they want to invest their time and money in it.

'course, I tend to think that about FLGS's too, so maybe I'm just nasty and cynical all the way 'round

Quote from: TonyLBOn the contrary, I think a pretty thorough extinction in the market could be a very good thing in many ways.  It would, I think, shake out a fair number of people who have good intentions but lousy business plans.

Yes, it's hard-hearted of me, but I think that some people making examples of themselves could help later developers to realize that business is an art unto itself, and one that they should develop at least a rudimentary understanding of if they want to invest their time and money in it.

'course, I tend to think that about FLGS's too, so maybe I'm just nasty and cynical all the way 'round

Nah...just a budding Capitalist...

Creative Destruction...Destructive Creation and all that...

People gettin' themselves all pimp-slapped by the invisible hand?

Quote from: TonyLBPeople gettin' themselves all pimp-slapped by the invisible hand?

Happens every day.  Hell, in a way, happened to me (in a completely unrelated business, not RPG's).

It's the beauty of the system...

I have this hypothesis that the logical end of the Forge philosophy is that we should all be making and playing our own games.