I figure I may as well post what I'm working on here publicly as well. I know I'm over in the Wizard and Fighter thread and elsewhere saying stuff like this is unnecessary for a game like D&D, but it's still fun to play with and interesting design. And I'm not really after another D&D.

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Class-wise, I've got a few goals. The goals for the races are similar.

1) Somewhat specific classes across the board. I'm both breaking down caster classes into specializations and leaving nothing so broad as "fighter." That said, I don't want to be so specific that I'm partitioning the rogue off from the assassin.
2) Adventure-appropriateness. No bards. No pure scholars. No pure aristocrats. Nothing like that. If they can't contribute in the dungeon or in the wilderness, they're out.
3) Flavor-appropriateness. Any character concept will have its details built around a specific flavor, more than a specific mechanical role. The most important thing is that classes and powers do what they say they should.
4) Adventure-appropriateness is not combat-appropriateness. Combat will also vary with class and build.
5) Combat skill is broken into a few specializations. Not the specific roles of 4e, though those serve as a bit of inspiration here.
6) Iconic concepts. It should be easy to "get" a class by its name. Failing that, with a little description.
7) Setting integration. The existence of a druid and a barbarian say a little something about the world. Magic in particular is meant to show off a bit of cosmology.
Easy to understand units and components, for easy reskinning/mix and matching. If someone really really wants a bard, a bit of warlord and rogue (under a system like hybrid classing) should do the trick. This won't be the standard, but I want houseruling to be easy.
9) There are generic perks. Not everything has to belong to a specific role. Anyone should be able to pick up (say) unarmed fighting.
10) A specific iteration of 8, but if the party really needs something (or should have it) by a certain level, it should not be class specific.

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Currently, the classes are Soldier, Barbarian, Rogue, Warlord, Hunter, Warlock, Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, Priest.

And the races are Troll, Goblin, Elf, Dwarf, and Human.

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Power goals are a little different.

1) Powers need to have specific and circumstantial utility.
2) Powers should force mutually exclusive decisions under the action economy, the stance economy, or preparation slots (if not all three).
3) The formatting should allow many combinations with a minimum of text and a maximum of clarity.
4) Powers should just plain do cool things. If someone's going to want something (like flight or charm spells), I'm going to put it in. It's on me to make it work.
5) Powers in the same tier should have rough parity across the board.

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I'll add to these lists as I think of things. Next post might get into the specific components powers are built from. Look forward to a bit about stances/auras, rituals, preparation, and interruption.

Also just a little note that there are a bunch of powers everyone can use. Tripping, disarming, grappling, and the like. I'm not even bothering with improved versions. How many characters are really defined by that shit?

I've also got a lot of specific power and class descriptions done already, and I'll be happy to answer specific questions.

I suppose I should start with how you learn powers.

At least to start, there will be three power sources.

*Class powers are specific to classes and tiers. You've got to be x class and y level, but that's pretty much it. You get a few automatically at level 0.
*Race powers are specific to race. There are only powers "for" the first five or six levels, so level isn't part of the prereqs. As with class powers, you get a few freebies at 0.
*Generic powers are available to anyone. You want to fight with fisticuffs or dabble in item creation or what have you, this is the section to look at. Prerequisites are typically skill modifiers (which develop over time across the board) so everyone can get everything, but it's just a matter of when.

*A few powers have tags, and I'm considering "capstone" powers that require three with a given tag (bot not any specific three).
*You can fill a power slot with a new skill or armor proficiency as well. There may be other non-power boons.

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There will be three power types.

*Plain vanilla powers (and spells, a type of power) are at-will. Nothing fancy here.
*Stances (and auras, a type of stance) fill stance slots. You get 1 to start, and another at 5, 10, 15, and 20.
*Utilities (and rituals, a type of utility) take a while, or can't be used in combat for some other reason (think social perks and item creation).

*Some powers and stances must be prepared. Time to prepare varies. Some things can be prepared quickly in the middle of combat. Others take a while to prepare. Some things require a location component (see below) to prepare. You can only prepare one thing, after which prepared powers start filling stance slots.
*Some powers, stances, prep, and utilities (especially utilities) require a lab, library, temple, or what have you.

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Interruption can happen a few ways.

*An attack of opportunity ends any action that provoked it, from movement, to drinking a potion, to firing an arrow, to casting a spell.
*Wounds end most stances, and auras are no exception (auras might be ended by any attack instead... will have to see how this works out in play).
*People can attempt to cast rituals in combat by spending their main action repeatedly and without stopping (so no skipping a turn of this). Any damage can end this.

Minimizing the potential for excessive synergies has been one of the goals in balancing and fine tuning this game.

Powers are nice synergy-limiters because they prevent "piling" of the sort you could get in 3x. Extra attacks could multiply bonus damage and you could put like four kinds of metamagic on that would bypass the higher spell level and all that. It was pretty crazy.

Classes are also nice synergy-limiters. My earliest version of this thing had no classes, but that mage problem (where you can mix flight, invisibility, and fireballs) is easily solved by just partitioning off the things you don't want used together for whatever reason.

And then stances provide choices in a similar manner. You can boost your attack, movement, or defense, or you can mess with the landscape or debuff somebody or summon something; but you can't do all of the above simultaneously, which is pretty convenient for me.

So the above three will hopefully allow me to make character options pretty powerful but still have useful limits on them.

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Pace is the other issue I'm after. This is a few issues at once.

*Hit points matter. People will probably be able to heal fully between fights, but within those fights, I want people to get close to dead quickly enough. I also want to pace the "dying" condition correctly, so there's some real risk.
*Action economy matters. Spending a main action to deny your foe a move action is one thing. Spending a main action to deny your foe a full action (stunning) is going to require some checks and balances to prevent stun locking. Healing is balanced on a similar logic. Healing shouldn't negate an attack, as that's a main action for a main action (not to mention that healing that fully counters an attack could theoretically extend the fight indefinitely).
*Rituals matter. I want to use rituals to reward preparation for combat and give a big advantage to the informed aggressor. They're also an encouragement to leave combat if a ritual becomes necessary to heal a particular wound or something.
*Wounds matter. As said in rituals, wounds will hopefully encourage fleeing and rescue as game elements. Additionally, the fact that KOs can happen much sooner than killing might make capture a more likely outcome than if this wasn't the case. And some wounds are bad enough to necessitate going back to town.
*Item creation matters. This is an issue for later, but item creation will be filling a role like Vancian magic in the first five levels. You get potion ingredients and gold in the dungeon, then you have to go back to town to actually use these things to generate resources. Potions in treasure hoards will help you last longer in the short term, while ingredients in treasure hoards will weight the items you'll tend to want to make a bit.

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But this probably isn't the stuff people are interested in hearing about. I'll be going with a high level description of the mechanical goals and concepts of individual classes and races in the next post.

Before even getting started, I just want to say I've got a much clearer idea of the first five levels than anything else. Things will probably open up a LOT after that point, and I'll be thinking about each tier individually as I deal with them.


Martial Classes
Some things to remember about Martial classes:
1) They may specialize in melee or ranged combat, but it's easy enough to pick something else up skill-wise, and there are generic powers for a few concepts (like mounted or unarmed combat) so it is entirely possible to get an armored, bow-using soldier or an unarmed brawler rogue.
2) They can usually change stances in the middle of combat. In general, their combat abilities may be faster and more flexible than those of mages.
3) Punching a wizard in the head can end his charm or fog spell or whatever else he's got going.

Just reminders before moving on.

Soldier
The soldier is the classic melee fighter class. He's got automatic training in all weapon skills, shield use, parrying, and armor. He has a 16 in strength or constitution, and will probably have good will saves. He'll probably start with light or medium plate, a spear, and a shield, and may move up to something more knightly around 5th level. So far, the mechanical focus is on a 4e-style "defender" role, plus abilities that allow him to fight more efficiently as part of a group. He can shield allies, withdraw from melee range if he hits with an AoO, push people back, hit lots of people at once, etc.

Barbarian
Barbarians are close to what they are in other games. He'll have a 16 strength for sure, and probably good will and/or fortitude saves, plus automatic training with heavy, thrown, and parrying. He'll likely use light armor as well.  Barbarians will be built in many ways around the rage stance. The rage stance lasts as long as the barbarian keeps fighting (it ends if he fails to attack for two consecutive rounds), gives him some DR (to help deal with the low armor), leaves him staggered when it ends, and will probably add bonuses to most of his class powers (and after level 5, it will also be able to boost other stances). Outside of that the barbarian gets some movement abilities, some absurd throwing, melee powers, object breaking, that sort of thing.

Rogue
Rogues are parkouring backstabbing pickpocketing jerks. They'll have a 16 dexterity or speed, and probably good perception and/or reflex saves, plus automatic training with light weapons, thrown weapons, and dodging. They'll use light or no armor as well. Rogues will be built around movement, and their goal in combat is sort of to jump in during the surprise round, wound someone quickly, and get out of the way. Less of this flanking and twfing stuff from 3x. Outside of combat the rogue's role will be disarming or setting traps, "face guy" stuff, getting into places he's not supposed to be (and I'm writing the combat movement powers to have that dual use), and general petty theft and larceny.

Hunter
Hunters are skilled archers, trackers, and masters of using the terrain to their advantage. They'll have a 16 dexterity, good perception saves, and automatic training with projectiles and dodging. They'll also use light or no armor. Hunters will be built around making better use of terrain traits, or bypassing inconvenient traits as needed. They'll focus (in combat) on hitting people from far away and avoiding melee. Outside of combat, there's tracking and hunting and such to do.

Warlord
Warlords are tacticians and orators of the battlefield. They're masters of manipulating morale and giving their allies an edge or a push. They'll have a 16 charisma, good will saves, and automatic training with one weapon skill and one defense skill. They'll also use medium armor. They'll be built around a little bit of minor healing (ranged, but doesn't touch wounds, and can't bring a guy back from zero) maybe granting people actions (not entirely sure how this will work), and stances that give little perks to those in melee range of themselves.

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Magic Classes
Some things to remember before moving on:
1) If the party ABSOLUTELY MUST HAVE a spell, anyone can learn it, and/or potions of it are available.
2) Changing stances in the middle of combat is harder for some magic and/or mages. Also there's preparation. It really really pays to know what you're up against as a mage.
3) Interruption happens. If you need your spell to last, you need to keep out of the line of fire somehow. You're probably really going to rely on your non-caster allies here, so you should do what you can to help them out.
4) Unless I say otherwise here, offensive stances have conditions that either end them or allow a new save periodically. There are no fixed durations, and players can always find a way to counteract magic if they have to. Additionally, such spells tend to require preparation. This is partly just to prevent spamming (no need to worry about ending your aura if you can just recast it).

Wizard
Wizards use subtle and strange magic. They can manipulate thoughts and emotions, fool the senses, become insubstantial transparent or weightless, etc. They're also good at seeing hidden things or things far away. They will have a 16 intelligence and good perception saves, training with all of the magic skills and none of the combat skills. Wizards in combat will rely largely on "debuffing" or "save or suck" stances offensively. There's little wizards can do directly in that respect. Out of combat, wizards will probably spend their time slowly building a web of lies and trading in secrets to get their way.

Sorcerer
Sorcerers are closer to a combination of FmA alchemists, Avatar's benders, and 3.x's warmage. They blast the battlefield with energy attacks, summon fog or soften earth to control the terrain, and can transmute raw materials a little bit. They will have a 16 intelligence and good will saves, training with all magic, and maybe even with a few weapons. Sorcerers in combat have fog, rough terrain, magic shielding, and magic blasts at their disposal, plus a few energy stances and metamagic stances that can modify the blasts (and later the shield too). Outside of combat sorcerers can use their powers to manipulate the dungeon directly sometimes, or to craft things.

Priest
Priests are healers, protectors, and preservers. They will have a 16 charisma and good will saves, training with all magic, and maybe with a few weapons. Clerics in combat will have their mace for themselves, plus stances that can aid and protect allies. They can heal allies in dire need during combat, and they can bring allies up to full health between fights. Outside of combat priests are priests.

Warlock
Warlocks practice black magic. They deal with the dead, demons, and the like, and can curse or kill with a touch or a bit of sympathetic magic. They will have a 16 will and good fortitude saves. They may be allowed a bit of light armor. In combat, they will try to use their touch spells or their minions to kill or hamper enemies, but they will probably rely on allies somewhat to avoid getting overwhelmed. Outside of combat, warlocks will do the dealing with devils and the undead bit.

Druid
Druids deal with nature. They become beast-like, speak with plants and animals, etc. They will have a 16 perception and good fortitude saves They'll probably also have some melee combat skills. In combat, they use stances to acquire the features of animals. These stances take a while to cast, and are harder to interrupt (I don't see "interruption" on physical features, nor instant growth). Effectively, druids are melee fighters who use nature magic. At least in combat. Out of combat, they do their usual thing (communing with plants and animals) typically by rituals.

Here's a rough template of the "power" format. Not perfect, may need tweaking, but you get the general idea from it.

Name
Type (subtypes/tags)
Action/Time
Target (none if NA)
Effect (specific color, can be multiple lines)
___(All of below are none if NA)___
Location
Implement/Focus/Components

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And here's some soldier stuff for levels 0-5

Fighting Retreat
Stance
Move
Condition: You make an attack of opportunity.
Effect: You may withdraw from melee.

Push Back
Power (attack)
Main
Range/Area: Melee target.
Attack vs Defense.
Hit: Weapon damage, and foe is knocked out of melee.
Wound: Foe is prone.
Melee weapon without reach.

Many Strikes
Power (attack)
Main
Range/Area: Melee group.
Attack (-x) vs Defense.
Hit: Weapon damage.
Wound: Roll wounds.
Melee Weapon without reach.

Overwhelming Presence
Stance
Move
Condition: You deal a foe damage with a melee weapon.
Effect: Damaged foe takes -5 to all defense checks.
Effect ends: Your next turn starts, or this stance ends.

Wisdom Breeds Caution
Stance
Move
Effect: +5 bonus to passive defense skills.

Shield Ally
Power
Reaction
Range/Area: Melee target.
Shield vs Attack.
Effect: You shield your ally from all damage that would be dealt by this attack.
Shield.

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I should probably give a brief summary of a few rules for context.

On your turn you get a main action (often an attack), minor action (often a move), and reaction (defending yourself or AoOs). You can always trade down, so you could take two moves and a re or three reactions.

Also, AoOs end the actions that provoked them.

So you jam a soldier in a door and he can AoO three guys and stop them, then attack all of them on his turn. Or he can stand there with his spear, AoOing and retreating and staying out of reach as long as he hits. Or he can knock problem foes away or what have you. Or if he's in a group of soldiers, overwhelming presence and many strikes can make mincemeat even of equal or superior numbers quickly. All simple but kind of scary boosts for a guy who will (typically) be defending a spot with a spear, a shield, and some allies.

Had a read through so far. Not many comments as such, but I'll have a look from time to time.
 
Post #1 all looks pretty reasonable. 'Stances' and 'auras' as a thing never caught my imagination, but nothing bad here.
On Objective #10 ; pondering this, you could turn this objective around to be "the party shouldn't really need things by a certain level" and get the same final effect through a very different implementation. i.e. design a world without DR-magic monsters, instead of making sure every fighter gets a magic sword. I guess one way leads towards a high-powered game, the other to 4th edition, more or less.
 
For Post #2 - Power sources- so is there a single # of power slots, and this is basically the same regardless of class/race?
 
Post #3 - good point on the powers limiting synergy - I guess this was one of 4E's success points (instead of X being a feat you pile on with all the other feats, its a power, and you only get to use one a round - no TWF and using one of the attacks as a trip, a la 3E. ..The partitioning of magic user powers by concept also sounds like a good idea.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;556805Had a read through so far. Not many comments as such, but I'll have a look from time to time.
 
Post #1 all looks pretty reasonable. 'Stances' and 'auras' as a thing never caught my imagination, but nothing bad here.
On Objective #10 ; pondering this, you could turn this objective around to be "the party shouldn't really need things by a certain level" and get the same final effect through a very different implementation. i.e. design a world without DR-magic monsters, instead of making sure every fighter gets a magic sword. I guess one way leads towards a high-powered game, the other to 4th edition, more or less.

It's a mix here. I'm definitely not going the DR/magic route, but I figure no one will fault me for including poison-based magic and some generic neutralize poison rituals. Nor for letting players learn to raise dead if they want to.

The line is probably fuzzier than I made out thanks to services (if you don't have a cleric you can probably still seek one out for dead raising) and item creation (I'm thinking potions will include healing and poison items even if you don't know the spells for them).
 

QuoteFor Post #2 - Power sources- so is there a single # of power slots, and this is basically the same regardless of class/race?

Well, hypothetically after level zero you could get all powers, all stances, or all rituals or something. It's certainly not going to be as rigid as core-4 AEDU. But yeah, the number potential active stances and/or prep slots stays about the same for every class.
 

QuotePost #3 - good point on the powers limiting synergy - I guess this was one of 4E's success points (instead of X being a feat you pile on with all the other feats, its a power, and you only get to use one a round - no TWF and using one of the attacks as a trip, a la 3E. ..The partitioning of magic user powers by concept also sounds like a good idea.

Yeah, I like and dislike the piling prevention. I'm actually probably going to end up including things like metamagic, but by using class and power partitions and tags and such, I'm hoping to at least make things more predictable on my end.

Sneak attack is one of those things I'm really tempted to allow piling on, for reasons I'll get into later.

Quote from: beejazz;553355_______________________________________________________

There will be three power types.

*Plain vanilla powers (and spells, a type of power) are at-will. Nothing fancy here.
*Stances (and auras, a type of stance) fill stance slots. You get 1 to start, and another at 5, 10, 15, and 20.
*Utilities (and rituals, a type of utility) take a while, or can't be used in combat for some other reason (think social perks and item creation).

I think you might need to work on the names of these things. 'Powers' is okay as a  term in a fantasy game,  'Stances' and 'Utilities' much less so (at least for me).

In the best of all possible worlds the terminology you use should fit with the subject matter of the game. On this basis, the sub-terms 'aura' and 'ritual' work much better than their parent rules term. This may seem like a minor thing, but I find that inappropriate terminology can really break immersion.

Quote from: Glazer;556838I think you might need to work on the names of these things. 'Powers' is okay as a  term in a fantasy game,  'Stances' and 'Utilities' much less so (at least for me).

It's funny, but I've got issues with calling a sneak attack a power more than I do with calling rage a stance.

I feel stance will work well enough with those players I'm making the game for because it means about the same thing it usually means (since Bo9S, and maybe a little before). Powers feel semi-magic or semi-supers to me. Utilities describe the role of utilities, but unfortunately they may get confused with the 4e meaning (which is a few shades away from what I mean) and aren't very flavorful (the price I pay for lumping in some item creation, some social, some healing, and spell preparation).

In any case, terms might see some wiggling in the future. You can consider these stand-ins for now.

QuoteIn the best of all possible worlds the terminology you use should fit with the subject matter of the game. On this basis, the sub-terms 'aura' and 'ritual' work much better than their parent rules term. This may seem like a minor thing, but I find that inappropriate terminology can really break immersion.

I went with defining aura as a stance type (instead of its own thing) to make sure people knew they filled the same slot. Dabbling is very very possible in my game, and I didn't want to lock soldiers out of the light spell for want of an aura slot to put it in.

I'm glad "aura" as a term works well enough. It's been in gaming parlance for a while, but I sometimes wonder how valid that is as a measure of intuitiveness. I know it's different for everybody, too, which makes the process a little rough. In the end, I'll probably just go with what works for most people after feedback.

Here's a bit of sorcerer work. The sorcerer will also have auras called fire, ice, and lighting that will reflavor blast and shield. Then there's metamagic for extending range or area on these spells. All of the above will be auras, so there's a hard cap on modifying this magic.

I'm considering placing a long casting time on soft earth and fog, instead of preparation. The result would be similar (you can typically only use these things 1/fight to lend weight to interruption, and either version would reward prep) but the expression might be simpler by just going with the long casting time.

Fire, ice, and lighting will have different wound effects (constant burning, staggering, and stunning, respectively). My biggest worry is lightning, which is at-will and can stun big areas. That kind of stun locking may be too much, even if it only happens one in four times in fights between equals (remember the damage scaling thread: 50/50 save odds and 50/50 wound odds). I guess time and the play test will tell if it's too much.

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Blast
Power (spell, attack)
Main
Range/Area: Short group.
Magic vs Reflex.
Hit: (dice) damage.
Miss: (fixed number) damage.
Wound: Prone.

Shield
Stance (Aura)
Main
Effect: (x)DR
Special: Metamagic can extend the range of this aura to a target in the same zone, or the area of this aura to all targets in your group.
Special: The fire, ice, or lightning auras can make this aura defend against those energy types.

Fog
Stance (Aura)
Main
Range/Area: Medium zone.
Effect: Those within the affected zone have full concealment against those outside it, partial concealment against those inside it, and no concealment against those in the same group.
Preparation: Ritual (5 minutes)

Soft Earth
Stance (Aura)
Main
Range/Area: Medium zone.
Effect: The affected zone counts as difficult terrain.
Preparation: Ritual (5 minutes)

Quote from: beejazz;558939I'm considering placing a long casting time on soft earth and fog, instead of preparation. The result would be similar (you can typically only use these things 1/fight to lend weight to interruption, and either version would reward prep) but the expression might be simpler by just going with the long casting time.

Curious as to how you're doing casting time? Looks like its 5min in the example spells, so too long to be used in combat at all.
Other than that I'm not sure how you extend casting time to still make something effectively useable only 1/combat ?
 In one system I can think of [JAGS] using a "long action" to cast a spell is probably a bad idea unless you win initiative, which prevents them from doing an interrupt - although that's a 50% chance of 1/fight, rather than 1/fight. Other than that, I'm drawing a blank.

Other than that, ever considered having spells just do vanilla damage, never wounds, as a balancing factor?

still reading through.   Interesting rug you've put on the D&D house.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;559007Curious as to how you're doing casting time? Looks like its 5min in the example spells, so too long to be used in combat at all.
Other than that I'm not sure how you extend casting time to still make something effectively useable only 1/combat ?

That's sort of the idea. You cast fog or soft earth before combat, or not at all. It lasts as long as you don't get hit in the face and lose concentration. It's a different kind of prep and/or resource management than Vance, but hopefully still interesting.

QuoteOther than that, ever considered having spells just do vanilla damage, never wounds, as a balancing factor?

That's sort of why vanilla "missile" does nothing but prone. It's just a move action to completely negate the only possible wound.

I like fire that can set fire because I can give zones wound thresholds and have an easy way to track the catch and spread of fires. It'll be great for dragons and such when I get to that.

Quote from: LordVreeg;559008still reading through.   Interesting rug you've put on the D&D house.

Yeah... setting stuff is pretty D&D so far. I'm hoping to distinguish this mainly on the basis of gameplay. Interested to hear your thoughts.

Quote from: beejazz;559036I like fire that can set fire because I can give zones wound thresholds and have an easy way to track the catch and spread of fires. It'll be great for dragons and such when I get to that.

I approve of fire that can set things on fire (I like damage systems where I can calculate a DC for that based off the amount/hit points of fire). I'd be very interested to see how the 'on fire' rules look, when you get that far.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;559053I approve of fire that can set things on fire (I like damage systems where I can calculate a DC for that based off the amount/hit points of fire). I'd be very interested to see how the 'on fire' rules look, when you get that far.

So far, I'm treating zone damage like object damage in 3.x (hit points, high DR, some materials are weaker to some damage types) but giving them wound thresholds like people.

Wounding a zone or object can create a variety of effects. You can punch a hole in the wall, create rubble, light fires, or whatever. And I'm definitely using this kind of thing for giants messing with castle walls and dragons lighting wood buildings and fields of crops on fire. Big monsters will affect domain management a bit with this kind of collateral damage.

As for how fire itself works, once you're on fire you take continual damage. Once a zone is on fire, everyone in it takes continual damage. So does the zone itself, until the zone is out of hit points. And you check continual damage against ajacent zones'  wound threshold to determine whether the fire spreads. I haven't worked out the details 100%, nor playtested, but I'm looking forward to functioning rules for this kind of thing.