I figure I may as well post what I'm working on here publicly as well. I know I'm over in the Wizard and Fighter thread and elsewhere saying stuff like this is unnecessary for a game like D&D, but it's still fun to play with and interesting design. And I'm not really after another D&D.
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Class-wise, I've got a few goals. The goals for the races are similar.
1) Somewhat specific classes across the board. I'm both breaking down caster classes into specializations and leaving nothing so broad as "fighter." That said, I don't want to be so specific that I'm partitioning the rogue off from the assassin.
2) Adventure-appropriateness. No bards. No pure scholars. No pure aristocrats. Nothing like that. If they can't contribute in the dungeon or in the wilderness, they're out.
3) Flavor-appropriateness. Any character concept will have its details built around a specific flavor, more than a specific mechanical role. The most important thing is that classes and powers do what they say they should.
4) Adventure-appropriateness is not combat-appropriateness. Combat will also vary with class and build.
5) Combat skill is broken into a few specializations. Not the specific roles of 4e, though those serve as a bit of inspiration here.
6) Iconic concepts. It should be easy to "get" a class by its name. Failing that, with a little description.
7) Setting integration. The existence of a druid and a barbarian say a little something about the world. Magic in particular is meant to show off a bit of cosmology.
8) Easy to understand units and components, for easy reskinning/mix and matching. If someone really really wants a bard, a bit of warlord and rogue (under a system like hybrid classing) should do the trick. This won't be the standard, but I want houseruling to be easy.
9) There are generic perks. Not everything has to belong to a specific role. Anyone should be able to pick up (say) unarmed fighting.
10) A specific iteration of 8, but if the party really needs something (or should have it) by a certain level, it should not be class specific.
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Currently, the classes are Soldier, Barbarian, Rogue, Warlord, Hunter, Warlock, Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, Priest.
And the races are Troll, Goblin, Elf, Dwarf, and Human.
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Power goals are a little different.
1) Powers need to have specific and circumstantial utility.
2) Powers should force mutually exclusive decisions under the action economy, the stance economy, or preparation slots (if not all three).
3) The formatting should allow many combinations with a minimum of text and a maximum of clarity.
4) Powers should just plain do cool things. If someone's going to want something (like flight or charm spells), I'm going to put it in. It's on me to make it work.
5) Powers in the same tier should have rough parity across the board.
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I'll add to these lists as I think of things. Next post might get into the specific components powers are built from. Look forward to a bit about stances/auras, rituals, preparation, and interruption.
Also just a little note that there are a bunch of powers everyone can use. Tripping, disarming, grappling, and the like. I'm not even bothering with improved versions. How many characters are really defined by that shit?
I've also got a lot of specific power and class descriptions done already, and I'll be happy to answer specific questions.
I suppose I should start with how you learn powers.
At least to start, there will be three power sources.
*Class powers are specific to classes and tiers. You've got to be x class and y level, but that's pretty much it. You get a few automatically at level 0.
*Race powers are specific to race. There are only powers "for" the first five or six levels, so level isn't part of the prereqs. As with class powers, you get a few freebies at 0.
*Generic powers are available to anyone. You want to fight with fisticuffs or dabble in item creation or what have you, this is the section to look at. Prerequisites are typically skill modifiers (which develop over time across the board) so everyone can get everything, but it's just a matter of when.
*A few powers have tags, and I'm considering "capstone" powers that require three with a given tag (bot not any specific three).
*You can fill a power slot with a new skill or armor proficiency as well. There may be other non-power boons.
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There will be three power types.
*Plain vanilla powers (and spells, a type of power) are at-will. Nothing fancy here.
*Stances (and auras, a type of stance) fill stance slots. You get 1 to start, and another at 5, 10, 15, and 20.
*Utilities (and rituals, a type of utility) take a while, or can't be used in combat for some other reason (think social perks and item creation).
*Some powers and stances must be prepared. Time to prepare varies. Some things can be prepared quickly in the middle of combat. Others take a while to prepare. Some things require a location component (see below) to prepare. You can only prepare one thing, after which prepared powers start filling stance slots.
*Some powers, stances, prep, and utilities (especially utilities) require a lab, library, temple, or what have you.
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Interruption can happen a few ways.
*An attack of opportunity ends any action that provoked it, from movement, to drinking a potion, to firing an arrow, to casting a spell.
*Wounds end most stances, and auras are no exception (auras might be ended by any attack instead... will have to see how this works out in play).
*People can attempt to cast rituals in combat by spending their main action repeatedly and without stopping (so no skipping a turn of this). Any damage can end this.
Minimizing the potential for excessive synergies has been one of the goals in balancing and fine tuning this game.
Powers are nice synergy-limiters because they prevent "piling" of the sort you could get in 3x. Extra attacks could multiply bonus damage and you could put like four kinds of metamagic on that would bypass the higher spell level and all that. It was pretty crazy.
Classes are also nice synergy-limiters. My earliest version of this thing had no classes, but that mage problem (where you can mix flight, invisibility, and fireballs) is easily solved by just partitioning off the things you don't want used together for whatever reason.
And then stances provide choices in a similar manner. You can boost your attack, movement, or defense, or you can mess with the landscape or debuff somebody or summon something; but you can't do all of the above simultaneously, which is pretty convenient for me.
So the above three will hopefully allow me to make character options pretty powerful but still have useful limits on them.
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Pace is the other issue I'm after. This is a few issues at once.
*Hit points matter. People will probably be able to heal fully between fights, but within those fights, I want people to get close to dead quickly enough. I also want to pace the "dying" condition correctly, so there's some real risk.
*Action economy matters. Spending a main action to deny your foe a move action is one thing. Spending a main action to deny your foe a full action (stunning) is going to require some checks and balances to prevent stun locking. Healing is balanced on a similar logic. Healing shouldn't negate an attack, as that's a main action for a main action (not to mention that healing that fully counters an attack could theoretically extend the fight indefinitely).
*Rituals matter. I want to use rituals to reward preparation for combat and give a big advantage to the informed aggressor. They're also an encouragement to leave combat if a ritual becomes necessary to heal a particular wound or something.
*Wounds matter. As said in rituals, wounds will hopefully encourage fleeing and rescue as game elements. Additionally, the fact that KOs can happen much sooner than killing might make capture a more likely outcome than if this wasn't the case. And some wounds are bad enough to necessitate going back to town.
*Item creation matters. This is an issue for later, but item creation will be filling a role like Vancian magic in the first five levels. You get potion ingredients and gold in the dungeon, then you have to go back to town to actually use these things to generate resources. Potions in treasure hoards will help you last longer in the short term, while ingredients in treasure hoards will weight the items you'll tend to want to make a bit.
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But this probably isn't the stuff people are interested in hearing about. I'll be going with a high level description of the mechanical goals and concepts of individual classes and races in the next post.
Before even getting started, I just want to say I've got a much clearer idea of the first five levels than anything else. Things will probably open up a LOT after that point, and I'll be thinking about each tier individually as I deal with them.
Martial Classes
Some things to remember about Martial classes:
1) They may specialize in melee or ranged combat, but it's easy enough to pick something else up skill-wise, and there are generic powers for a few concepts (like mounted or unarmed combat) so it is entirely possible to get an armored, bow-using soldier or an unarmed brawler rogue.
2) They can usually change stances in the middle of combat. In general, their combat abilities may be faster and more flexible than those of mages.
3) Punching a wizard in the head can end his charm or fog spell or whatever else he's got going.
Just reminders before moving on.
Soldier
The soldier is the classic melee fighter class. He's got automatic training in all weapon skills, shield use, parrying, and armor. He has a 16 in strength or constitution, and will probably have good will saves. He'll probably start with light or medium plate, a spear, and a shield, and may move up to something more knightly around 5th level. So far, the mechanical focus is on a 4e-style "defender" role, plus abilities that allow him to fight more efficiently as part of a group. He can shield allies, withdraw from melee range if he hits with an AoO, push people back, hit lots of people at once, etc.
Barbarian
Barbarians are close to what they are in other games. He'll have a 16 strength for sure, and probably good will and/or fortitude saves, plus automatic training with heavy, thrown, and parrying. He'll likely use light armor as well. Barbarians will be built in many ways around the rage stance. The rage stance lasts as long as the barbarian keeps fighting (it ends if he fails to attack for two consecutive rounds), gives him some DR (to help deal with the low armor), leaves him staggered when it ends, and will probably add bonuses to most of his class powers (and after level 5, it will also be able to boost other stances). Outside of that the barbarian gets some movement abilities, some absurd throwing, melee powers, object breaking, that sort of thing.
Rogue
Rogues are parkouring backstabbing pickpocketing jerks. They'll have a 16 dexterity or speed, and probably good perception and/or reflex saves, plus automatic training with light weapons, thrown weapons, and dodging. They'll use light or no armor as well. Rogues will be built around movement, and their goal in combat is sort of to jump in during the surprise round, wound someone quickly, and get out of the way. Less of this flanking and twfing stuff from 3x. Outside of combat the rogue's role will be disarming or setting traps, "face guy" stuff, getting into places he's not supposed to be (and I'm writing the combat movement powers to have that dual use), and general petty theft and larceny.
Hunter
Hunters are skilled archers, trackers, and masters of using the terrain to their advantage. They'll have a 16 dexterity, good perception saves, and automatic training with projectiles and dodging. They'll also use light or no armor. Hunters will be built around making better use of terrain traits, or bypassing inconvenient traits as needed. They'll focus (in combat) on hitting people from far away and avoiding melee. Outside of combat, there's tracking and hunting and such to do.
Warlord
Warlords are tacticians and orators of the battlefield. They're masters of manipulating morale and giving their allies an edge or a push. They'll have a 16 charisma, good will saves, and automatic training with one weapon skill and one defense skill. They'll also use medium armor. They'll be built around a little bit of minor healing (ranged, but doesn't touch wounds, and can't bring a guy back from zero) maybe granting people actions (not entirely sure how this will work), and stances that give little perks to those in melee range of themselves.
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Magic Classes
Some things to remember before moving on:
1) If the party ABSOLUTELY MUST HAVE a spell, anyone can learn it, and/or potions of it are available.
2) Changing stances in the middle of combat is harder for some magic and/or mages. Also there's preparation. It really really pays to know what you're up against as a mage.
3) Interruption happens. If you need your spell to last, you need to keep out of the line of fire somehow. You're probably really going to rely on your non-caster allies here, so you should do what you can to help them out.
4) Unless I say otherwise here, offensive stances have conditions that either end them or allow a new save periodically. There are no fixed durations, and players can always find a way to counteract magic if they have to. Additionally, such spells tend to require preparation. This is partly just to prevent spamming (no need to worry about ending your aura if you can just recast it).
Wizard
Wizards use subtle and strange magic. They can manipulate thoughts and emotions, fool the senses, become insubstantial transparent or weightless, etc. They're also good at seeing hidden things or things far away. They will have a 16 intelligence and good perception saves, training with all of the magic skills and none of the combat skills. Wizards in combat will rely largely on "debuffing" or "save or suck" stances offensively. There's little wizards can do directly in that respect. Out of combat, wizards will probably spend their time slowly building a web of lies and trading in secrets to get their way.
Sorcerer
Sorcerers are closer to a combination of FmA alchemists, Avatar's benders, and 3.x's warmage. They blast the battlefield with energy attacks, summon fog or soften earth to control the terrain, and can transmute raw materials a little bit. They will have a 16 intelligence and good will saves, training with all magic, and maybe even with a few weapons. Sorcerers in combat have fog, rough terrain, magic shielding, and magic blasts at their disposal, plus a few energy stances and metamagic stances that can modify the blasts (and later the shield too). Outside of combat sorcerers can use their powers to manipulate the dungeon directly sometimes, or to craft things.
Priest
Priests are healers, protectors, and preservers. They will have a 16 charisma and good will saves, training with all magic, and maybe with a few weapons. Clerics in combat will have their mace for themselves, plus stances that can aid and protect allies. They can heal allies in dire need during combat, and they can bring allies up to full health between fights. Outside of combat priests are priests.
Warlock
Warlocks practice black magic. They deal with the dead, demons, and the like, and can curse or kill with a touch or a bit of sympathetic magic. They will have a 16 will and good fortitude saves. They may be allowed a bit of light armor. In combat, they will try to use their touch spells or their minions to kill or hamper enemies, but they will probably rely on allies somewhat to avoid getting overwhelmed. Outside of combat, warlocks will do the dealing with devils and the undead bit.
Druid
Druids deal with nature. They become beast-like, speak with plants and animals, etc. They will have a 16 perception and good fortitude saves They'll probably also have some melee combat skills. In combat, they use stances to acquire the features of animals. These stances take a while to cast, and are harder to interrupt (I don't see "interruption" on physical features, nor instant growth). Effectively, druids are melee fighters who use nature magic. At least in combat. Out of combat, they do their usual thing (communing with plants and animals) typically by rituals.
Here's a rough template of the "power" format. Not perfect, may need tweaking, but you get the general idea from it.
Name
Type (subtypes/tags)
Action/Time
Target (none if NA)
Effect (specific color, can be multiple lines)
___(All of below are none if NA)___
Location
Implement/Focus/Components
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And here's some soldier stuff for levels 0-5
Fighting Retreat
Stance
Move
Condition: You make an attack of opportunity.
Effect: You may withdraw from melee.
Push Back
Power (attack)
Main
Range/Area: Melee target.
Attack vs Defense.
Hit: Weapon damage, and foe is knocked out of melee.
Wound: Foe is prone.
Melee weapon without reach.
Many Strikes
Power (attack)
Main
Range/Area: Melee group.
Attack (-x) vs Defense.
Hit: Weapon damage.
Wound: Roll wounds.
Melee Weapon without reach.
Overwhelming Presence
Stance
Move
Condition: You deal a foe damage with a melee weapon.
Effect: Damaged foe takes -5 to all defense checks.
Effect ends: Your next turn starts, or this stance ends.
Wisdom Breeds Caution
Stance
Move
Effect: +5 bonus to passive defense skills.
Shield Ally
Power
Reaction
Range/Area: Melee target.
Shield vs Attack.
Effect: You shield your ally from all damage that would be dealt by this attack.
Shield.
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I should probably give a brief summary of a few rules for context.
On your turn you get a main action (often an attack), minor action (often a move), and reaction (defending yourself or AoOs). You can always trade down, so you could take two moves and a re or three reactions.
Also, AoOs end the actions that provoked them.
So you jam a soldier in a door and he can AoO three guys and stop them, then attack all of them on his turn. Or he can stand there with his spear, AoOing and retreating and staying out of reach as long as he hits. Or he can knock problem foes away or what have you. Or if he's in a group of soldiers, overwhelming presence and many strikes can make mincemeat even of equal or superior numbers quickly. All simple but kind of scary boosts for a guy who will (typically) be defending a spot with a spear, a shield, and some allies.
Had a read through so far. Not many comments as such, but I'll have a look from time to time.
Post #1 all looks pretty reasonable. 'Stances' and 'auras' as a thing never caught my imagination, but nothing bad here.
On Objective #10 ; pondering this, you could turn this objective around to be "the party shouldn't really need things by a certain level" and get the same final effect through a very different implementation. i.e. design a world without DR-magic monsters, instead of making sure every fighter gets a magic sword. I guess one way leads towards a high-powered game, the other to 4th edition, more or less.
For Post #2 - Power sources- so is there a single # of power slots, and this is basically the same regardless of class/race?
Post #3 - good point on the powers limiting synergy - I guess this was one of 4E's success points (instead of X being a feat you pile on with all the other feats, its a power, and you only get to use one a round - no TWF and using one of the attacks as a trip, a la 3E. ..The partitioning of magic user powers by concept also sounds like a good idea.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;556805Had a read through so far. Not many comments as such, but I'll have a look from time to time.
Post #1 all looks pretty reasonable. 'Stances' and 'auras' as a thing never caught my imagination, but nothing bad here.
On Objective #10 ; pondering this, you could turn this objective around to be "the party shouldn't really need things by a certain level" and get the same final effect through a very different implementation. i.e. design a world without DR-magic monsters, instead of making sure every fighter gets a magic sword. I guess one way leads towards a high-powered game, the other to 4th edition, more or less.
It's a mix here. I'm definitely not going the DR/magic route, but I figure no one will fault me for including poison-based magic and some generic neutralize poison rituals. Nor for letting players learn to raise dead if they want to.
The line is probably fuzzier than I made out thanks to services (if you don't have a cleric you can probably still seek one out for dead raising) and item creation (I'm thinking potions will include healing and poison items even if you don't know the spells for them).
QuoteFor Post #2 - Power sources- so is there a single # of power slots, and this is basically the same regardless of class/race?
Well, hypothetically after level zero you could get all powers, all stances, or all rituals or something. It's certainly not going to be as rigid as core-4 AEDU. But yeah, the number potential active stances and/or prep slots stays about the same for every class.
QuotePost #3 - good point on the powers limiting synergy - I guess this was one of 4E's success points (instead of X being a feat you pile on with all the other feats, its a power, and you only get to use one a round - no TWF and using one of the attacks as a trip, a la 3E. ..The partitioning of magic user powers by concept also sounds like a good idea.
Yeah, I like and dislike the piling prevention. I'm actually probably going to end up including things like metamagic, but by using class and power partitions and tags and such, I'm hoping to at least make things more predictable on my end.
Sneak attack is one of those things I'm really tempted to allow piling on, for reasons I'll get into later.
Quote from: beejazz;553355_______________________________________________________
There will be three power types.
*Plain vanilla powers (and spells, a type of power) are at-will. Nothing fancy here.
*Stances (and auras, a type of stance) fill stance slots. You get 1 to start, and another at 5, 10, 15, and 20.
*Utilities (and rituals, a type of utility) take a while, or can't be used in combat for some other reason (think social perks and item creation).
I think you might need to work on the names of these things. 'Powers' is okay as a term in a fantasy game, 'Stances' and 'Utilities' much less so (at least for me).
In the best of all possible worlds the terminology you use should fit with the subject matter of the game. On this basis, the sub-terms 'aura' and 'ritual' work much better than their parent rules term. This may seem like a minor thing, but I find that inappropriate terminology can really break immersion.
Quote from: Glazer;556838I think you might need to work on the names of these things. 'Powers' is okay as a term in a fantasy game, 'Stances' and 'Utilities' much less so (at least for me).
It's funny, but I've got issues with calling a sneak attack a power more than I do with calling rage a stance.
I feel stance will work well enough with those players I'm making the game for because it means about the same thing it usually means (since Bo9S, and maybe a little before). Powers feel semi-magic or semi-supers to me. Utilities describe the role of utilities, but unfortunately they may get confused with the 4e meaning (which is a few shades away from what I mean) and aren't very flavorful (the price I pay for lumping in some item creation, some social, some healing, and spell preparation).
In any case, terms might see some wiggling in the future. You can consider these stand-ins for now.
QuoteIn the best of all possible worlds the terminology you use should fit with the subject matter of the game. On this basis, the sub-terms 'aura' and 'ritual' work much better than their parent rules term. This may seem like a minor thing, but I find that inappropriate terminology can really break immersion.
I went with defining aura as a stance type (instead of its own thing) to make sure people knew they filled the same slot. Dabbling is very very possible in my game, and I didn't want to lock soldiers out of the light spell for want of an aura slot to put it in.
I'm glad "aura" as a term works well enough. It's been in gaming parlance for a while, but I sometimes wonder how valid that is as a measure of intuitiveness. I know it's different for everybody, too, which makes the process a little rough. In the end, I'll probably just go with what works for most people after feedback.
Here's a bit of sorcerer work. The sorcerer will also have auras called fire, ice, and lighting that will reflavor blast and shield. Then there's metamagic for extending range or area on these spells. All of the above will be auras, so there's a hard cap on modifying this magic.
I'm considering placing a long casting time on soft earth and fog, instead of preparation. The result would be similar (you can typically only use these things 1/fight to lend weight to interruption, and either version would reward prep) but the expression might be simpler by just going with the long casting time.
Fire, ice, and lighting will have different wound effects (constant burning, staggering, and stunning, respectively). My biggest worry is lightning, which is at-will and can stun big areas. That kind of stun locking may be too much, even if it only happens one in four times in fights between equals (remember the damage scaling thread: 50/50 save odds and 50/50 wound odds). I guess time and the play test will tell if it's too much.
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Blast
Power (spell, attack)
Main
Range/Area: Short group.
Magic vs Reflex.
Hit: (dice) damage.
Miss: (fixed number) damage.
Wound: Prone.
Shield
Stance (Aura)
Main
Effect: (x)DR
Special: Metamagic can extend the range of this aura to a target in the same zone, or the area of this aura to all targets in your group.
Special: The fire, ice, or lightning auras can make this aura defend against those energy types.
Fog
Stance (Aura)
Main
Range/Area: Medium zone.
Effect: Those within the affected zone have full concealment against those outside it, partial concealment against those inside it, and no concealment against those in the same group.
Preparation: Ritual (5 minutes)
Soft Earth
Stance (Aura)
Main
Range/Area: Medium zone.
Effect: The affected zone counts as difficult terrain.
Preparation: Ritual (5 minutes)
Quote from: beejazz;558939I'm considering placing a long casting time on soft earth and fog, instead of preparation. The result would be similar (you can typically only use these things 1/fight to lend weight to interruption, and either version would reward prep) but the expression might be simpler by just going with the long casting time.
Curious as to how you're doing casting time? Looks like its 5min in the example spells, so too long to be used in combat at all.
Other than that I'm not sure how you extend casting time to still make something effectively useable only 1/combat ?
In one system I can think of [JAGS] using a "long action" to cast a spell is probably a bad idea unless you win initiative, which prevents them from doing an interrupt - although that's a 50% chance of 1/fight, rather than 1/fight. Other than that, I'm drawing a blank.
Other than that, ever considered having spells just do vanilla damage, never wounds, as a balancing factor?
still reading through. Interesting rug you've put on the D&D house.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;559007Curious as to how you're doing casting time? Looks like its 5min in the example spells, so too long to be used in combat at all.
Other than that I'm not sure how you extend casting time to still make something effectively useable only 1/combat ?
That's sort of the idea. You cast fog or soft earth before combat, or not at all. It lasts as long as you don't get hit in the face and lose concentration. It's a different kind of prep and/or resource management than Vance, but hopefully still interesting.
QuoteOther than that, ever considered having spells just do vanilla damage, never wounds, as a balancing factor?
That's sort of why vanilla "missile" does nothing but prone. It's just a move action to completely negate the only possible wound.
I like fire that can set fire because I can give zones wound thresholds and have an easy way to track the catch and spread of fires. It'll be great for dragons and such when I get to that.
Quote from: LordVreeg;559008still reading through. Interesting rug you've put on the D&D house.
Yeah... setting stuff is pretty D&D so far. I'm hoping to distinguish this mainly on the basis of gameplay. Interested to hear your thoughts.
Quote from: beejazz;559036I like fire that can set fire because I can give zones wound thresholds and have an easy way to track the catch and spread of fires. It'll be great for dragons and such when I get to that.
I approve of fire that can set things on fire (I like damage systems where I can calculate a DC for that based off the amount/hit points of fire). I'd be very interested to see how the 'on fire' rules look, when you get that far.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;559053I approve of fire that can set things on fire (I like damage systems where I can calculate a DC for that based off the amount/hit points of fire). I'd be very interested to see how the 'on fire' rules look, when you get that far.
So far, I'm treating zone damage like object damage in 3.x (hit points, high DR, some materials are weaker to some damage types) but giving them wound thresholds like people.
Wounding a zone or object can create a variety of effects. You can punch a hole in the wall, create rubble, light fires, or whatever. And I'm definitely using this kind of thing for giants messing with castle walls and dragons lighting wood buildings and fields of crops on fire. Big monsters will affect domain management a bit with this kind of collateral damage.
As for how fire itself works, once you're on fire you take continual damage. Once a zone is on fire, everyone in it takes continual damage. So does the zone itself, until the zone is out of hit points. And you check continual damage against ajacent zones' wound threshold to determine whether the fire spreads. I haven't worked out the details 100%, nor playtested, but I'm looking forward to functioning rules for this kind of thing.
Now, I've only really got a small sliver of the Wizard mapped out, but I wanted to put some stuff in here to show how a less combat-focused class might work. In this case, I'm only posting the stuff the wizard will use to manipulate people, but I'm showing it to a higher level than other classes.
The 0-5 spells manipulate emotions grossly. Really, they act more as easy to counter debuffs. They only take a full action to prepare, so while interruption will grant significant reprieve (especially if the victim can move safely out of range) the wizard can take cover and prepare again mid-combat. I'm probably going to grey-box how the GM should run affected NPCs as angry, calm, or afraid, but there are still concrete effects for PCs should the GM want to use wizard magic against them.
The 6-10 versions are a much bigger deal, so they need heavier counterbalancing and clearer wording (probably clearer wording than I have so far). They may page reference a longer section in the DMG-equivalent book or section. In any case, you only get to use them 1/combat because of the longer prep time. And there are conditions to end them because they are so powerful. I mean... 50/50 odds of a first-round KO on an equal level foe is BIG. And this at a level where you can keep two active stances. Even suggestion, which isn't a stance, needs some way to interrupt it.
On the 11-15 spells, note that there is a -5 penalty. The magic skill progresses 1/level automatically like any other. So the save DCs on the earlier spells will go up (keeping them useful at high levels). The high level spells allow greater control, in exchange for being balanced for lower-level foes. It's not for controlling equal foes or getting giant minions or whatever. It's for building an empire of lies and secrets. Most of the world is still low level, and that low level world becomes a resource to manipulate when players advance. Note that coma is potentially kind of insane. But unlike a proper save or die, the curse can be broken. Maybe a little easier than raising dead, too.
Also worth mentioning: The prep is to prevent spamming, but it's as much to prevent spamming in the midst of social situations as it is to prevent spamming in combat. Repeated suggestions in a group setting will piss people off, and being able to just negate that by doing it over and over again (even if that's a loose reading of how the spells work) isn't something I want to be possible. I want wizards to manipulate people more like Saruman did... pulling the strings behind the scenes and trying not to be too obvious about it.
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I haven't worked out a lot of the rest of the wizard territory. They'll get divination, bizarre movement modes (blinking, levitation, and ignoring walls), and illusion. Divination and illusion are sort of harder to write for, and I'm not sure what levels will be appropriate for some of the movement. But we can mess with that later I guess.
My other major problem is writing good powers. I'm thinking that most wizard stuff has duration and should be auras, while other stuff (like divination) will be used out of combat and be rituals. At this rate, players will train up archery and mix that with levitation. I'm not against that mind you, but I want a pure wizard to work and work well.
Anyway, I'm being boring with all this. On to the powers themselves.
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Wizard 0-5
Anger
Stance (Aura, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Medium target.
Magic vs Will
Effect: Target becomes angry. They take a -x penalty to all checks. This penalty stops affecting the target if they attack (and does not apply to attacks), but returns at the beginning of their turn every round.
Preparation: Full Action
Calm
Stance (Aura, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Medium target.
Magic vs Will
Effect: Target is calmed. They take a -x penalty to all checks every time they attack someone (this penalty applies to the attacks) and does not stack with itself. The penalty ends at the beginning of their turn every round, but returns if they attack again.
Preparation: Full Action
Fear
Stance (Aura, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Medium target.
Magic vs Will
Effect: Target is afraid. They take a -x penalty to all checks. This penalty stops if the target takes no actions on their turn except to move away from all people, creatures, foes, or danger of any kind. The penalty returns at the beginning of every round.
Preparation: Full Action
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Wizard 6-10
Charm
Stance (Aura, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Short target.
Magic vs Will.
Effect: Target treats you as a friend. They'll do you any favors they would do a friend, and will not harm you. They will not do anything they would not normally do for a friend.
New Save: Target is hurt by you or any of your allies. Target's friends or allies are hurt by you or your allies. Anyone can provide a new save by taking a move action at close range.
Preparation: Ritual (5 minutes)
Language Dependent
Suggestion
Power (Spell, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Short target.
Magic vs Will.
Effect: Target takes a course of action you suggest. The target will not do anything against their nature, nor will they become helpful or hostile towards anyone.
New Save: Target finds out that the suggestion is against their nature. Anyone can provide a new save by taking a move action at close range.
Ends: The suggestion is completed.
Preparation: Ritual (5 minutes)
Language Dependent
Sleep
Stance (Aura, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Short target.
Magic vs Will.
Effect: Target is unconscious.
New Save: Someone spends a move action at melee range trying to wake the target. Some extremely loud noises.
Preparation: Ritual (5 minutes)
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Wizard 11-15
Dominate
Stance (Aura, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Short target.
Magic -5 vs Will.
Effect: Target treats you as their master. They obey your orders.
New Save: You order the target to do something against their nature.
Preparation: Ritual (5 minutes)
Command
Power (Spell, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Short target
Magic -5 vs Will.
Effect: Target obeys one simple command.
Ends: The command is completed.
Preparation: Ritual (5 minutes)
Language Dependent
Coma
Power (Aura, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Short target
Magic -5 vs Will.
Effect: Target is unconscious.
Preparation: Ritual (5 minutes)
I suppose the next problem to work on will be movement powers for rogues and wizards. As I mentioned earlier, wizards will be able to float about, blink, and move through walls at some point. But I want this to be balanced against rogue movement, and rogues are relatively limited. Basically they've got parkouring, stealth, that sort of thing. What I'm putting below are just rough outlines.
I'm thinking tier 1 levitation, tier 1 or 2 for blink, and tier 2 or 3 for passwall. No idea for invisibility or illusion.
Blink: Probably stance with long casting time that allows line of sight teleport with a range similar to ordinary movement.
Levitation: Also probably a stance with a long casting time that allows slow flight, hovering, and feather-fallish stuff.
Passwall: Again, probably a stance with a long casting time that allows passing through some kinds of walls (I don't like *unbreakable* walls of force, but I imagine they'd be a good stopper for this spell). I think passing through a wall should itself be a main action, to imply that it takes effort (and that you're not just walking about incorporeal and immune to weapons and stuff).
Actually... now that I think of it, main actions to move would be another good limiter on all of the above. Maybe? Problem is when someone tries using two of these simultaneously. You can blink to boost the speed of levitation if it prevents falling, but this would prevent levitation from being used to pass through walls (maybe).
Invisibility: This will be tricky to balance with stealthy rogues. Not even sure where to start.
Illusion: Likewise, no idea where to start.
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Rogue powers will do less, but be a lot less expensive. There'll be parkouring (maybe with a more fantasy-oriented name), stealth (beyond just the ordinary skill), hit and run, and maybe a few others.
Parkouring: This would be a power that would let the rogue move anywhere he can reach in a move, regardless of obstacles, as long as he ends up on stable solid ground. As a power, it's got no cost in the stance department. It also doesn't have prep or long casting times or interruption.
Stealth: Power again. If a rogue starts and ends a move with concealment, the whole move is treated as having concealment. The rogue loses this benefit on an AoO. Basically the rogue hangs out in peoples' peripheral vision when sneaking in a way others can't. It's not "for" combat or hiding after people notice you, hence the AoO rule.
Hit and Run: If you successfully attack someone in melee, you can move away (not like a five foot step, more like full movement) without provoking an AoO. I don't want to make this a stance, but it's conditional and feels stance-ish. Also stancing it would make it work with sneak attack, which is a power (probably).
Rogues need some work in general. Sneak attack is bothering me a bit, for reasons I guess I'll get to in a bit.
I'm thinking of a new kind of stance to add to the list, called a "boon."
Basically, it's a stance that one character or entity grants another.
So the warlord can use a ritual-like speech before a big fight and grant a bunch of underlings morale-based bonuses.
Or cultists could worship Sheolmeth, the demon of fiendish alacrity, and get blinking powers.
Or high level martial characters could teach soldiers a useful trick before taking them onto the battlefield.
That sort of thing. Not terribly fleshed out, but I think this and the mass combat rules I just posted could be made to work well together for large scale battles.
I think I may revise hit and run (for the rogue) and instead make the stance work as follows:
If you damage someone, they can't make AoOs against you. Now the stance can be used both for throwing a knife at a guy and closing safely *and* for its original purpose of stabbing a guy and getting away safely.
On wizard movement, I guess I can make movement using levitation a move action, with blinking and phasing through walls as main actions. That way you can still combine levitation with either or both of the other two.
Quote from: beejazz;565305I think I may revise hit and run (for the rogue) and instead make the stance work as follows:
If you damage someone, they can't make AoOs against you. Now the stance can be used both for throwing a knife at a guy and closing safely *and* for its original purpose of stabbing a guy and getting away safely.
On wizard movement, I guess I can make movement using levitation a move action, with blinking and phasing through walls as main actions. That way you can still combine levitation with either or both of the other two.
good idea with the rogue, what type of progression>?
Quote from: LordVreeg;565312good idea with the rogue, what type of progression>?
Thanks. Game is level-based, and you get one of these perks or powers every level. XP is quest-based and the higher in level you get, the longer it takes to level. It's no more immersed than the loot or killing standards, but might be a slight bit easier to use, and may fit more kinds of games.
Continuing with the rogue.
I'm kind of going with a 4esque "striker" role in combat, where the rogue is meant primarily to move and harass individual targets. I can't much use the high DPR approach because of the wounding system, but I think I've really got the mobility covered so far. As is typical, I'm thinking rogues would have low-ish hp and armor, but they should be good at dodging and reflex saves and other such evasive maneuvers.
While the casters' "routine" in combat may be to rely on scouting and foresight to prep the right auras and then hide behind terrain and the soldier, the rogue is kind of the counter for that. They can basically throw a knife in the sorcerer's face, run up the wall ignoring the soldier on the stairs, and then AoO the caster in the face every time he tries to cast anything. And when some melee brute tries to stop him? He can go out the way he came. Potentially really powerful stuff.
Of course combat isn't everything. The parkouring and stealth can easily apply outside of combat. And I'll probably be adding utilities for finding/disarming/constructing traps and snares and such. Maybe a few other things.
Powers list so far is as follows:
Untitled:
The revised hit and run will be a stance that prevents foes you damage from making AoOs against you (on the turn in which you damage them).
Parkour:
The rogue will have the ability to ignore the effects of bad terrain if he begins and ends his movement in good terrain (I'll phrase it more clearly later). This could be either a stance or a power. If it's a power, it only costs under the action economy and not the stance economy. This would sort of balance it out with the technically more versatile wizard movement powers (which would definitely be stances at the very least). This is pretty much my system's "climb walls" except that flavor-wise it makes no distinction between jumping and climbing.
Stealth:
Stealth would work similarly to parkour, but it would give concealment for the duration of a move so long as the move begins and ends with concealment. The concealment is negated on AoOs (it's meant for hiding, not combat). This is basically my system's "hide in shadows" or "hide in plain sight." Like parkour, I'll probably make this an at-will power to balance it out against invisibility (which would be a stance, take a while to cast, and then have conditions that could end it).
Evasion:
Evasion would be a cool stance, and I need at least two stances per class to really make stances matter much. This could work straight like 3x evasion or even like improved evasion (you're spending resources on this). Or I could include a reaction cost to make your save evasionish/improved evasionish. Lots of room to calibrate this really. My only worry is how often it'll be worth turning this stance on. Its applicability is narrow compared with any of the above, which might render it frequently "useless" regardless of how effective it is when it becomes useful.
Sneak Attack:
The most difficult to work with so far, for a few reasons.
1)My damage formula won't handle bonus damage well. It increases the odds of wounding, which can be an instant fight ender. As it stands, rogue proficiencies are lower damage ones (light weapons, thrown weapons) but it would be easy to drop a skill slot on missiles or heavy weapons. For non-damage status effects it would be difficult to determine which to use (both for balance and the "iconic rogue" image).
2)It might be pretty damn easy to catch a guy unable to defend himself. That's the whole point of the way the action economy works right now, but it might make the rogue's finishing move too easy to just start with.
3)It could be really open to multi-attack abuse. If two weapon fighting works like in 3x it could be an easy route to dropping an equal level foe in one round (I balanced the system around three hits, so two hits plus doubled bonus damage could be a too-reliable one-round-kill on a foe of equal level). Even just the ability to hit more targets (without the assumption that you can pile damage on one target free of penalties) will still mean bringing that "finishing move" pain to a whole group, which is not what the rogue is supposed to be about.
4)Procedurally, I can't see this being a stance because I want the rogue to be able to be an opportunist, and take the chance without too much required prep. I almost don't want to make it a separate power (which would handily solve 3 by preventing simultaneous use of extra targets and bonus effects) because a person may or may not know whether a target can dodge. Making a player declare a sneak attack on a foe who is only pretending not to expect it (and therefore isn't an eligible target) could be weird, and players choosing to attack some other way and lose the benefit of the sneak attack because they don't know if a foe will dodge is also weird. I can file this under misc. (like armor proficiency) but that still leaves 3 open.
I'm really just not sure what to do on this one. This is *the* cornerstone of a rogue's combat abilities (besides harassing casters) and it's really frustrating not knowing quite how to handle it in the game.
The rage stance is something else I'm working on. So far, there will be one, two or all of three effects on this stance.
1) All objects everywhere (maybe up to a specific weight limit) do 3d12 damage and may be thrown with the same range increment (probably into the next zone). All objects use heavy weapons or throw, and are modified by strength. This replaces their normal stats, with the exception of keywords like "reach" or "soft." Also modifications (such as from powers or effects) to damage, range, etc. apply after the rage stance's effect (you can't use the damage replacement to get around a damage penalty). You can throw people with the same range increment as everything else, but you have to grab them first. You can still use a crossbow, so long as you intend to throw it at someone.
2) You have innate DR.
3) You have a +3 to strength checks made to break things.
I'm also going to rule that raging barbarians can't talk intelligibly, or that they can only shout sentences of three words or fewer.
Additionally, the rage will end when you stop acting sufficiently angry. If you fail to attack someone or break something for two consecutive rounds, the rage ends and you are staggered. You can't restart the rage until you are no longer staggered.
On the sneak attack issue...possibly you could have it function as a re-roll rather than a bonus (roll twice and take the best), or have it maximize one of the damage dice (only) automatically? Its an interesting problem to have.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;567855On the sneak attack issue...possibly you could have it function as a re-roll rather than a bonus (roll twice and take the best), or have it maximize one of the damage dice (only) automatically? Its an interesting problem to have.
Yeah, it is. I think I'll mirror rage on this one and use a damage swap. 3d12 regardless of weapon.
Then I can take the TWF stuff and put a 1D penalty on any 3 dice attack or up. It'll put a max of 4 dice per round on TWFing (with the downside that DR applies twice, it's about even with a normal attack, except that you can split it between foes).
Since it's become relevant both with rage and with sneak attack (both methods for getting 3d12) I may want to get TWF stuff down.
I think there may be a difference between a "split strike" and a "double strike." I may even include a "main gauche" option for defense.
The double strike is the most potentially problematic. I'm going to allow a person to defend themselves twice with one action against such attacks probably. Or I'm going to make TWFing a full action. Maybe both. We'll see.
The other thing is making sure that the total odds of wounding per round don't increase if you hit the same guy twice. Part of this will be the damage penalty to heavy weapons. Part of this may be a penalty to attack rolls. I'll have to work out the math to figure out the details.
I'm also not sure whether to make people buy these moves, or whether to class them like trip/disarm/grapple. It may be that I make this as easy to use as sword and board or two handed weapons.
I didn't call out skill and ability stuff as going here, but I need to remember what was being discussed on the communication thread.
I made Perception a stat and a save (instead of a group of skills) in this game. Mainly because it makes no damn sense to train in listening, but it still makes sense that some are more perceptive than others (and hunters and elves might be more perceptive than others).
Outside of simple checks, there is more than one sense you make perception checks for. The big three for PCs will be hearing, sight, and scent (the last of which is shared by goblins and trolls). The info you can get includes any of the following:
Presence: Pretty much any sense can determine presence. Determines if someone or something is nearby.
Identity: Not all senses determine identity all the time. You can tell who someone is by their voice, but not based on the sound of a twig they snapped underfoot.
Location: Not all senses determine location. Scent is the biggie here, as it only gives you a vague sense of direction.
Communication: Sight and sound can carry language. Smell can as well, but that's usually more of an ant-monster thing.
Trivial tasks start at zero in this system, while interference, quiet/camouflage, and distance can all increase the difficulty in various ways. I think I may have a general "range increment" mechanic on senses and a rundown of circumstance penalties. So trying to hear a person shouting from across a pitched battle is the kind of thing you could extrapolate a DC for, even though I know most people won't use these rules outside of hiding and seeking and ambush tactics.
So far, my barbarian has the following powers:
Rage is a stance that lets you deal 3d12 with literally anything you can pick up. Likewise you can throw just about anything you can pick up. It also gives you a bonus to break things, and some DR. Two rounds without attacking someone or breaking something ends the rage and inflicts staggering. You can't rage if you are staggered.
Charge is a power that lets you engage with someone, attack, and if the attack hits they can't AoO. Not sure how to word it, or whether it might be reworked such that I can word it more clearly.
Unnamed will probably be a ritual-like self-healing ability. It'll refresh some or all hit points, and will remove at least staggering.
Unnamed like the soldier, I'm thinking there will be some kind of "hit more people" power.
I'm really needing more ideas on this one.
What do you want your barbarian to be able to do exactly?
Quote from: beejazz;577227So far, my barbarian has the following powers:
Rage is a stance that lets you deal 3d12 with literally anything you can pick up. Likewise you can throw just about anything you can pick up. It also gives you a bonus to break things, and some DR. Two rounds without attacking someone or breaking something ends the rage and inflicts staggering. You can't rage if you are staggered.
Charge is a power that lets you engage with someone, attack, and if the attack hits they can't AoO. Not sure how to word it, or whether it might be reworked such that I can word it more clearly.
Unnamed will probably be a ritual-like self-healing ability. It'll refresh some or all hit points, and will remove at least staggering.
Unnamed like the soldier, I'm thinking there will be some kind of "hit more people" power.
I'm really needing more ideas on this one.
I am a fan of giving barbarians some kind of mounted archery or other mounted skills. I think the Tancteri were known for dismounting rapidly from their horses to engage in melee for example. Not sure how you would express that mechanically here though.
Quote from: MGuy;577323What do you want your barbarian to be able to do exactly?
I want him to be the mobile, capable of taking down large numbers of mooks or going toe to toe with individual "boss" monsters, and a melee specialist. Fluff wise, I've already got the light armor, fight using everything, rage, etc.
An in-combat self-healing option might be nice?
I had also considered rage-based boosts to the ordinary powers, though I'm not sure how to implement those things.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;577325I am a fan of giving barbarians some kind of mounted archery or other mounted skills. I think the Tancteri were known for dismounting rapidly from their horses to engage in melee for example. Not sure how you would express that mechanically here though.
My barb is a little more Hulk Smash! so far and a little less historical. So far anyway. Could change.
Mounted combat I'll probably file under generic perks and powers, as it's something I want everyone with the cash to drop on a mount to be able to do.
The archery niche will probably be split between generics (I want weapon speccing of all kinds to be available to most) and hunters most likely.
Unique abilities for mounted combat may be interesting, and I'll keep in mind mount-leaping for later.
For hulk smash type barbarians, I would probably go with stuff like damage bonuses, something that enables them to take a beating, and perks like that. However I would be careful with that stuff if you have fighters in the system or if your generic fighter class has enough optional abilities that they can basiclaly cobble together a barbarian without having a whole seperate class. Would suggest any damage boost abilities they get come with an accuracy penalty to attacks.
I'd say give them your game's equivalent of Temporary hit points when they enter rage. Temporary hit points usually doesn't piss people off. If you will allow them to get it I'd also suggest some kind of rapid healing option.
For area damaging I am hesistant to add anything. I don't know if hitting an area is a protected thing or if it's as simple as getting "Cleave" in your game.
For mobility I'd say give him a lot of movement options. Leaping charges to avoid difficult terrain. Some kind of limited invulnerability or DR that makes it so people can't stop your charges. Shit like that should work.
Outside of what you mentioned tribal rituals, gaining enhanced perception abilities (Like Wolverine) some stealth (since he's probably a hunter) and similar abilities might be appropriate.
Here's how "Barbarians" look in my game if it helps:
Savage – Savages are barbarous fighters who, in one way or another, revel in conflict. Savages may be possessed by a spirit of fury, get lost in the visceral nature of combat, or any number of things that make them better suited for combat.
Class Skills:
HP
Martial Proficiency
Animal Handling
Climb
Intimidate
Jump
Perception
Survival
Fortitude
Dodge
Mana Generation Method – The Savage enjoys combat. Both civil and brutal Savages get a certain thrill when thrust into combat. Because of this they are able to do their best when on edge. Whenever a Savage is Damaged they gain Mana equal to one point for every 2 points of Damage they incur. Savages still have the regular limit of how much Mana they can retain. When pushed beyond that maximum Savages enter a form of Rage.
Berserker – Berserkers are crazed Savages who channel their love of battle into destructive power. They are adept at not only over powering their opponents with the sheer amount of raw muscle power they can muster but our adept at putting their foes off balance through the frightful fashion in which they fight.
Primary Abilities
1st Level
Berserk [Rage] – Berserkers are adept at calling upon their inner fury to bring forth incredible physical powers. When Raging a Berserker may go Berserk. For each Level of Rage you achieve you gain a +2 Mundane Bonus to Power Score. While Berserk you receive a -2 Penalty to Dodge per Level of Rage.
3rd Level
Mighty Swing [Attack, Mana] – Berserkers are able to squeeze their souls to do more damage pushing themselves past even the mightiest warriors. When you Attack you may opt to spend Mana to hit harder at the cost of your accuracy. For every point of Mana you spend you increase the Damage you deal on a hit by 2 but lower your Accuracy by 1.
5th Level
Insurmountable [Sub, Morph] – While in Rage you may gain may Temporary HP by channeling your SHP. This Temporary HP only lasts for as long as you stay in Rage and is lost when your Rage ends. You may channel up to your Level in Temporary HP.
Sub Abilities
2nd Level
Intimidating Presence – When someone would take Fear Damage you may use your Mana as a non Action to increase the Fear Damage they take by an equal amount.
Tempest
Primary Abilities
1st Level
Frenzy [Rage] – Tempests are adept at calling upon their inner storm to turn themselves into a dangerous whirling tempest. When Raging a Tempest may go into a Frenzy. For each Level of Rage you achieve you gain a +2 Mundane Bonus to Agility Score. While in Frenzy you receive a -2 Penalty to Dodge per Level of Rage.
3rd Level
Tempest's Swing [Attack, Mana, Area, Channel, Augment] – Tempests are able to enter spins that allow them to whip up The wind around them. When you Attack whether you miss or hit you may utilize Mana and whip or a stirring wind that gives you some cover and disrupts incoming Attacks. When used this ability covers all squares in your Natural Reach +1 square per point of Mana spent. Perception Checks, Ranged Attacks, Area Attacks made on Targets within the area suffer a -2 Penalty for each point of Mana spent. While this Ability is active you cannot move from your current Square. If you are forced to move or are Damaged you must make a Concentration Check using just your Agility Score against a DC equal to 10 + 1 for each Square you moved or each point of Damage you took. If you are Teleported or somehow otherwise instantly removed from the place you were at the Ability ends immediately.
5th Level
Vacuum Swing [Attack, Mana, Area, Channel, Augment] – Tempests may draw in Targets with a great swing and a rapid spin. When this Ability is used all Targets in your Reach + a number of Squares equal to the Mana you use. All Targets in the area of this Ability are treated to a Pull Attempt. Targets that are Pulled to you because of this Ability are knocked Prone. While this Ability is active you cannot move from your current Square. If you are forced to move or are Damaged you must make a Concentration Check using just your Agility Score against a DC equal to 10 + 1 for each Square you moved or each point of Damage you took. If you are Teleported or somehow otherwise instantly removed from the place you were at the Ability ends immediately.
Sub Abilities
2nd Level
Fast Movement – Your Move Speed increases by a number of Squares equal to half your Level.
Juggernaut
Primary Abilities
1st Level
Grit [Rage] – Juggernauts are truly unstoppable combatants, able to shrug off blows that would stop others in their tracks. When Raging a Juggernaut may gain Grit. For each Level of Rage you achieve you gain a +2 Mundane Bonus to Resilience Score and Temporary HP equal to their Level. While in Frenzy you receive a -2 Penalty to Dodge per Level of Rage.
3rd Level
Juggernaut [Passive] – Attacks that hit and Damage but don't overcome Damage Reduction are considered a Miss.
5th Level
Stubborn [Passive] – Your Physical Damage Reduction can be used for your Magic Damage Reduction whenever you make an Active Defense.
Sub Abilities
2nd Level
Ram – You may add your Resilience Bonus to Damage on any Action that involves a Charge.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;577350For hulk smash type barbarians, I would probably go with stuff like damage bonuses, something that enables them to take a beating, and perks like that. However I would be careful with that stuff if you have fighters in the system or if your generic fighter class has enough optional abilities that they can basiclaly cobble together a barbarian without having a whole seperate class. Would suggest any damage boost abilities they get come with an accuracy penalty to attacks.
I didn't include a generic fighter. So far the only point of overlap with the soldier is the area attack. The soldier is more "defender" and the barbarian more "striker" in 4e terms, in that the barbarian moves better while the soldier is built for group fighting and preventing movement.
Quote from: MGuy;577352I'd say give them your game's equivalent of Temporary hit points when they enter rage. Temporary hit points usually doesn't piss people off. If you will allow them to get it I'd also suggest some kind of rapid healing option.
Rapid healing is definitely on the table here. I need to determine how to differentiate the rapid self-healing of the barbarian from the similar abilities of trolls and druids.
The barbarian is likely to have the most basic version, while the troll may have better wound healing (maybe being able to actually spend hp to fix wounds) and I'm not as sure yet about the druid.
QuoteFor area damaging I am hesistant to add anything. I don't know if hitting an area is a protected thing or if it's as simple as getting "Cleave" in your game.
So far the soldier has a hit everybody in melee power already. My main fear with the barbarian is just repetitiveness. It would also be ideal to write up something that works better with running around than a full action melee area effect. Since movement is part of a barbarian's shtick.
QuoteFor mobility I'd say give him a lot of movement options. Leaping charges to avoid difficult terrain. Some kind of limited invulnerability or DR that makes it so people can't stop your charges. Shit like that should work.
DR is definitely there, and the charge has been made a bbn power. Ignoring terrain might be a good add-on.
QuoteSub Abilities
2nd Level
Intimidating Presence – When someone would take Fear Damage you may use your Mana as a non Action to increase the Fear Damage they take by an equal amount.
Ooh... intimidation related stuff might be good. He's already got the mid-range throwing, but the ability to scare people would be cool.
QuoteSub Abilities
2nd Level
Fast Movement – Your Move Speed increases by a number of Squares equal to half your Level.
A full +1 zone would be a big damn deal. If I upped it to a full +2 zones during a rage it would be pretty crazy. Equivalent of +40 ft at that point.
QuoteJuggernaut
Just the name is making me think of how this guy should be unstoppable. Some kind of moving and knocking a bunch of guys over in the process.
I just highlighted the cool bits. My game is a little more "broad strokes" so some things (exchanging bonuses/penalties) are barred by default.
Additionally, while I had the idea of +x to break objects, it might be interesting to actually translate that into terrain effects. Breaking floors and/or ceilings indoors for example. That may be a product of breaking objects rather than a power in and of itself though.
Size increase should be on the table to or something like "Powerful Build" where they count as one size larger whenever it would benefit them. If you're going to make smashing objects a thing I'd say have it just give a generic effect that you don't mind being used often. Smashing through walls would be cool but there are certain limitations you might want to give it.
Quote from: MGuy;577413Size increase should be on the table to or something like "Powerful Build" where they count as one size larger whenever it would benefit them. If you're going to make smashing objects a thing I'd say have it just give a generic effect that you don't mind being used often. Smashing through walls would be cool but there are certain limitations you might want to give it.
In this case rage gives a damage swap for the max dice I'm willing to give (3d12), and the size of item they can wield will probably include things up to their own size/weight (so that they can use people as weapons). Barbarians can pick up the giant's club, a chair, an axe, a sheep, whatever. It all does 3d12 and can be thrown a short distance.
Damage piling can break the system, given the massive damage threshold. So bonus damage is something I'll tend to avoid.
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On a related note, I was thinking of having trolls use powerful build or something similar. Large but no fiddling with reach in any case. Not entirely certain of the statistical effects of troll and goblin size yet though. Certainly it'll hit grappling at the very least.
On trolls, instead of allowing 3d12 all the time with two handed fighting (3d12 is rage and sneak attack only so far) I may allow two handed weapons to be wielded in one hand.
Wow it has been a while.
So I thought on powers a bit yesterday.
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For two-weapon fighting, I'm considering some variation of the following set of powers:
Double strike will give +1D up to 3 dice. It's mainly for letting a fighter use light weapons and still deal good damage. There may need to be a special rule for mismatched weapons.
Split strike will allow you to target one foe with each weapon. It may be a single attack roll.
Two-weapon defense would cost a move action and improve your passive AC by 5 (probably wouldn't stack with the similar soldier stance, and I'll probably make that require a full action to activate now).
(unnamed) will allow you to hit someone with one weapon and use a maneuver with the other, but all on one roll. Probably a main action.
If I can get a fifth power for this, I'll also write a stance called two-weapon master or something. It'll negate penalties or improve effects on all of the two-weapon fighting powers. The prereqs would be level 5+ and any three twf powers.
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I'm also thinking of the hunter now.
I'm thinking the hunter should be able to "snipe" as it were. So taking a move action to aim will replace damage with 3d12 on any bow or crossbow.
Other powers/stances may pile other non-damage improvements on the same attack. Longer range, ignoring or reducing the effects of cover/concealment, debilitating effects, etc. All for the cost of that same one move action.
The hunter should also have stances to help reduce the effects of rough terrain and take better advantage of cover/concealment.
And so far that's all I've got.
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The ability to hit many targets with a ranged weapon (thrown or projectile) should be a generic power. I know it'll probably hit a group (certainly not a zone) but I'm not sure how much ammo it should cost, or whether/how I should cap the number of targets.
Mounted fighting powers/stances should be generic, but I want it/them to do something more useful than penalty negation.
So far checking through, there's the occasional crazy thing that can be done.
A rogue could use double strike or an area effect with thrown daggers while he was in the stance that prevents people he hits from making AoOs. This could really enhance the effectiveness of that stance. Now, double strike will have a penalty and only hit two foes, and the area attack would be a full attack (so no move in the same round). But if I allow a warlord to grant move actions by way of powers? Could be big.
Still, this is the kind of combo I am really okay with for a few reasons:
1) It's only useful in narrow circumstances (you have to move past someone who is blocking your path). Therefore it won't be spammed by those who are able to do it. In combat action will still vary even allowing for the existence of this combo.
2) Its cost is relatively high. In character building terms it's a minimum of two perks for the weakest version, and it's at least a stance and a full action to pull off (plus the action spent to activate the stance). For the costliest version, there is another perk (the action granting), another character (if the warlord is incapacitated or absent, this doesn't work), and another main action.
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There's been a lot of talk about charop and traps lately. I really do think there's room for charop gameplay and design within a mainstream game, same as I think there's room for old-school-based difficulty in scenario design. The above is what I'd consider a good place to allow charop because the outcome should be fun and the potential damage (potential for spamming, false choice, traps, taxes) is minimal.
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Outside of that though, am I right in thinking the costs are proportional? Or that the application of this combo is circumstantial? Or do you think it outweighs the other options you've seen so far?
I'm considering changing tiers to an every three(ish) levels thing. So first would be 0-3, second would be 4-6, third would be 7-9, fourth would be 10-12, and a fifth would be 13-15 (there would be five tiers in this case).
Every tier would increase the number of stances you could have active by 1 as usual. And (from the other thread) I was going to have healing dice increase at intervals of 3 anyway, so this sort of works out.
This helps on a few levels.
1) The math worked best up to level 15 IMO.
2) People could actually get to second tier powers in fewer than 6 months.
3) There were odd jumps in the old descriptions of the tiers previously.
4) I only need to think up like 6 powers per class per tier this way.
5) It would set the level cap nearer the cap for material plane monsters.
The current draft of the sorcerer has all the powers described upthread. Energy auras (fire, lighting, and ice), metamagic (longer range, wider effect), and the magic shield will all be a main action to cast, as will the missile. The missile, by default, will be 2d10 short range (into the next zone) and affect a group. And fog and soft earth will each be rituals to cast.
At first level, a sorcerer gets missile and shield for free. Maybe a ritual (possibly something rune related), to be decided later.
In the three subsequent levels of the first tier, a sorcerer might be able to pick up one energy, one metamagic, and one of either fog or soft earth. Alternately they could pick up two energies, metamagics, or terrain effects and drop one whole category. Hell, they could even get all energies. But they won't get all energies, all metamagics, and all terrain effects. That would take seven levels, and by that time new options would have opened up.
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So far for the second tier I have two auras.
The first is a cloak aura. The cloak damages people at melee range continuously for 1d10. It would be a main action to cast. If a caster used improved range to hurt someone far away with it, it would take an action to move it.
The second is an increased effect aura. This would increase damage or DR from sorcerer spells and auras. (cloak would be 2d10, missile would be 3d10, and shield would have increased DR).
Besides these things, maybe I ought to think of new terrain and energy effects? As long as I can bump the number of available perks at this tier up to at least 5 I should be alright.
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At tier 2 or 3 stunlocking will open up. Cloak plus lightning could repeatedly stun a group without the caster spending actions every round (the group's got to be about 5 levels lower for these kinds of repeated wounds to be plausible though, so it's more of a level 6 and up thing). Typically something I'm against.
However, at tier 2 or 3, an enemy sorcerer could shield his allies (increased area shield) and drastically reduce the odds of wounding. Sure, at level 6 he could also use a third stance to beef up the range, area, or damage. But by that time a rival mage could also use a third stance to negate any of those advantages.
Now there won't be an enemy sorcerer all the time, but there are plenty of answers for breaking the stun lock. If the victims of this tactic have anyone who isn't stunned, shooting or stabbing the caster will suffice to interrupt the auras and allow people to escape.
The availability of these things also implies when certain monster energy attacks and resistances might be appropriate on the other side of things. So that's helpful.
For the warlord, there will be 3 sort of categories of power I need to deal with (so far).
Action Granting powers will do what they say on the tin. I figure that there should be some inefficiency here. You could grant a move action by spending a main action, a defense by spending a move action, or a main action by spending a full action (though that last one seems unlikely to make it in to the final version).
Boons and Stances will improve the capabilities of allies and followers in concrete ways. Warlord boons will effectively be speeches and impromptu training given before a fight. Boons go in the stance slots of willing targets. Typically they won't be as good as peoples' own stances, but they open up new options. An example would be a skill training boon that lets people act as if trained in a given skill for a while. So a bunch of peasants can act like archers under the tutelage of a warlord who is good at archery. Warlord stances that help people out will conversely be the kind of thing where he has to hold their hand through whatever they're doing.
Morale-based healing as discussed in the thread going on this topic at the moment, warlord healing has the benefit of being usable at a longer range. However, it will not remove conditions the way cleric healing does. It may at least remove stunned and staggered, though allowing it to remove staggered may boost the barbarian a bit much (since staggering is how the barbarian's rage is ended).
There may be some miscellaneous others. Extra saves, ignoring specific wound effects, etc.
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The big question is what powers to choose as the level 0 warlord powers. 1 of each category might be nice. Maybe the skill training boon, the move action granting power, and the healing power? But then what stance would be appropriate? Should I take the skill training boon and make it a warlord stance instead?
Maybe I should move from the general to the specific on the powers list before I decide.
Finally getting back on this project, and looking to put together a rough play test document and... well... test the basics that I currently have fleshed out. Right now the stats are down to seven (the dexterity split was functionally pointless) and I have a rough list of skill groups (movement, social, nobility, wilderness, devices, larceny, magic). I figured classes and races should get two saves each (out of the five available) and that any character should be trained in a minimum of three saves. I also figured each class and race should get a power and a stance, but I don't know how strict I'll be there. And there are lots of gaps in my list at the moment.
I'll probably also add where needed that various characters can swap in (their prime score) for certain skills. So magic might, by default, work on either will or int. But a caster is going to use his prime stat instead. Or barbarians use all weapons through strength. That sort of thing.
Attached is the current version of the character options list. The individual options are not yet fleshed out very much. Any feedback, questions, or ideas would be hugely appreciated.