Now, I've only really got a small sliver of the Wizard mapped out, but I wanted to put some stuff in here to show how a less combat-focused class might work. In this case, I'm only posting the stuff the wizard will use to manipulate people, but I'm showing it to a higher level than other classes.

The 0-5 spells manipulate emotions grossly. Really, they act more as easy to counter debuffs. They only take a full action to prepare, so while interruption will grant significant reprieve (especially if the victim can move safely out of range) the wizard can take cover and prepare again mid-combat. I'm probably going to grey-box how the GM should run affected NPCs as angry, calm, or afraid, but there are still concrete effects for PCs should the GM want to use wizard magic against them.

The 6-10 versions are a much bigger deal, so they need heavier counterbalancing and clearer wording (probably clearer wording than I have so far). They may page reference a longer section in the DMG-equivalent book or section. In any case, you only get to use them 1/combat because of the longer prep time. And there are conditions to end them because they are so powerful. I mean... 50/50 odds of a first-round KO on an equal level foe is BIG. And this at a level where you can keep two active stances. Even suggestion, which isn't a stance, needs some way to interrupt it.

On the 11-15 spells, note that there is a -5 penalty. The magic skill progresses 1/level automatically like any other. So the save DCs on the earlier spells will go up (keeping them useful at high levels). The high level spells allow greater control, in exchange for being balanced for lower-level foes. It's not for controlling equal foes or getting giant minions or whatever. It's for building an empire of lies and secrets. Most of the world is still low level, and that low level world becomes a resource to manipulate when players advance. Note that coma is potentially kind of insane. But unlike a proper save or die, the curse can be broken. Maybe a little easier than raising dead, too.

Also worth mentioning: The prep is to prevent spamming, but it's as much to prevent spamming in the midst of social situations as it is to prevent spamming in combat. Repeated suggestions in a group setting will piss people off, and being able to just negate that by doing it over and over again (even if that's a loose reading of how the spells work) isn't something I want to be possible. I want wizards to manipulate people more like Saruman did... pulling the strings behind the scenes and trying not to be too obvious about it.

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I haven't worked out a lot of the rest of the wizard territory. They'll get divination, bizarre movement modes (blinking, levitation, and ignoring walls), and illusion. Divination and illusion are sort of harder to write for, and I'm not sure what levels will be appropriate for some of the movement. But we can mess with that later I guess.

My other major problem is writing good powers. I'm thinking that most wizard stuff has duration and should be auras, while other stuff (like divination) will be used out of combat and be rituals. At this rate, players will train up archery and mix that with levitation. I'm not against that mind you, but I want a pure wizard to work and work well.

Anyway, I'm being boring with all this. On to the powers themselves.

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Wizard 0-5

Anger
Stance (Aura, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Medium target.
Magic vs Will
Effect: Target becomes angry. They take a -x penalty to all checks. This penalty stops affecting the target if they attack (and does not apply to attacks), but returns at the beginning of their turn every round.
Preparation: Full Action

Calm
Stance (Aura, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Medium target.
Magic vs Will
Effect: Target is calmed. They take a -x penalty to all checks every time they attack someone (this penalty applies to the attacks) and does not stack with itself. The penalty ends at the beginning of their turn every round, but returns if they attack again.
Preparation: Full Action

Fear
Stance (Aura, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Medium target.
Magic vs Will
Effect: Target is afraid. They take a -x penalty to all checks. This penalty stops if the target takes no actions on their turn except to move away from all people, creatures, foes, or danger of any kind. The penalty returns at the beginning of every round.
Preparation: Full Action

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Wizard 6-10


Charm
Stance (Aura, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Short target.
Magic vs Will.
Effect: Target treats you as a friend. They'll do you any favors they would do a friend, and will not harm you. They will not do anything they would not normally do for a friend.
New Save: Target is hurt by you or any of your allies. Target's friends or allies are hurt by you or your allies. Anyone can provide a new save by taking a move action at close range.
Preparation: Ritual (5 minutes)
Language Dependent

Suggestion
Power (Spell, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Short target.
Magic vs Will.
Effect: Target takes a course of action you suggest. The target will not do anything against their nature, nor will they become helpful or hostile towards anyone.
New Save: Target finds out that the suggestion is against their nature. Anyone can provide a new save by taking a move action at close range.
Ends: The suggestion is completed.
Preparation: Ritual (5 minutes)
Language Dependent

Sleep
Stance (Aura, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Short target.
Magic vs Will.
Effect: Target is unconscious.
New Save: Someone spends a move action at melee range trying to wake the target. Some extremely loud noises.
Preparation: Ritual (5 minutes)

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Wizard 11-15

Dominate
Stance (Aura, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Short target.
Magic -5 vs Will.
Effect: Target treats you as their master. They obey your orders.
New Save: You order the target to do something against their nature.
Preparation: Ritual (5 minutes)

Command
Power (Spell, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Short target
Magic -5 vs Will.
Effect: Target obeys one simple command.
Ends: The command is completed.
Preparation: Ritual (5 minutes)
Language Dependent

Coma
Power (Aura, Mind-Affecting)
Main
Range/Area: Short target
Magic -5 vs Will.
Effect: Target is unconscious.
Preparation: Ritual (5 minutes)

I suppose the next problem to work on will be movement powers for rogues and wizards. As I mentioned earlier, wizards will be able to float about, blink, and move through walls at some point. But I want this to be balanced against rogue movement, and rogues are relatively limited. Basically they've got parkouring, stealth, that sort of thing. What I'm putting below are just rough outlines.

I'm thinking tier 1 levitation, tier 1 or 2 for blink, and tier 2 or 3 for passwall. No idea for invisibility or illusion.

Blink: Probably stance with long casting time that allows line of sight teleport with a range similar to ordinary movement.

Levitation: Also probably a stance with a long casting time that allows slow flight, hovering, and feather-fallish stuff.

Passwall: Again, probably a stance with a long casting time that allows passing through some kinds of walls (I don't like *unbreakable* walls of force, but I imagine they'd be a good stopper for this spell). I think passing through a wall should itself be a main action, to imply that it takes effort (and that you're not just walking about incorporeal and immune to weapons and stuff).

Actually... now that I think of it, main actions to move would be another good limiter on all of the above. Maybe? Problem is when someone tries using two of these simultaneously. You can blink to boost the speed of levitation if it prevents falling, but this would prevent levitation from being used to pass through walls (maybe).

Invisibility: This will be tricky to balance with stealthy rogues. Not even sure where to start.

Illusion: Likewise, no idea where to start.

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Rogue powers will do less, but be a lot less expensive. There'll be parkouring (maybe with a more fantasy-oriented name), stealth (beyond just the ordinary skill), hit and run, and maybe a few others.

Parkouring: This would be a power that would let the rogue move anywhere he can reach in a move, regardless of obstacles, as long as he ends up on stable solid ground. As a power, it's got no cost in the stance department. It also doesn't have prep or long casting times or interruption.

Stealth: Power again. If a rogue starts and ends a move with concealment, the whole move is treated as having concealment. The rogue loses this benefit on an AoO. Basically the rogue hangs out in peoples' peripheral vision when sneaking in a way others can't. It's not "for" combat or hiding after people notice you, hence the AoO rule.

Hit and Run: If you successfully attack someone in melee, you can move away (not like a five foot step, more like full movement) without provoking an AoO. I don't want to make this a stance, but it's conditional and feels stance-ish. Also stancing it would make it work with sneak attack, which is a power (probably).

Rogues need some work in general. Sneak attack is bothering me a bit, for reasons I guess I'll get to in a bit.

I'm thinking of a new kind of stance to add to the list, called a "boon."

Basically, it's a stance that one character or entity grants another.

So the warlord can use a ritual-like speech before a big fight and grant a bunch of underlings morale-based bonuses.

Or cultists could worship Sheolmeth, the demon of fiendish alacrity, and get blinking powers.

Or high level martial characters could teach soldiers a useful trick before taking them onto the battlefield.

That sort of thing. Not terribly fleshed out, but I think this and the mass combat rules I just posted could be made to work well together for large scale battles.

I think I may revise hit and run (for the rogue) and instead make the stance work as follows:

If you damage someone, they can't make AoOs against you. Now the stance can be used both for throwing a knife at a guy and closing safely *and* for its original purpose of stabbing a guy and getting away safely.

On wizard movement, I guess I can make movement using levitation a move action, with blinking and phasing through walls as main actions. That way you can still combine levitation with either or both of the other two.

Quote from: beejazz;565305I think I may revise hit and run (for the rogue) and instead make the stance work as follows:

If you damage someone, they can't make AoOs against you. Now the stance can be used both for throwing a knife at a guy and closing safely *and* for its original purpose of stabbing a guy and getting away safely.

On wizard movement, I guess I can make movement using levitation a move action, with blinking and phasing through walls as main actions. That way you can still combine levitation with either or both of the other two.

good idea with the rogue, what type of progression>?

Quote from: LordVreeg;565312good idea with the rogue, what type of progression>?

Thanks. Game is level-based, and you get one of these perks or powers every level. XP is quest-based and the higher in level you get, the longer it takes to level. It's no more immersed than the loot or killing standards, but might be a slight bit easier to use, and may fit more kinds of games.

Continuing with the rogue.

I'm kind of going with a 4esque "striker" role in combat, where the rogue is meant primarily to move and harass individual targets. I can't much use the high DPR approach because of the wounding system, but I think I've really got the mobility covered so far. As is typical, I'm thinking rogues would have low-ish hp and armor, but they should be good at dodging and reflex saves and other such evasive maneuvers.

While the casters' "routine" in combat may be to rely on scouting and foresight to prep the right auras and then hide behind terrain and the soldier, the rogue is kind of the counter for that. They can basically throw a knife in the sorcerer's face, run up the wall ignoring the soldier on the stairs, and then AoO the caster in the face every time he tries to cast anything. And when some melee brute tries to stop him? He can go out the way he came. Potentially really powerful stuff.

Of course combat isn't everything. The parkouring and stealth can easily apply outside of combat. And I'll probably be adding utilities for finding/disarming/constructing traps and snares and such. Maybe a few other things.

Powers list so far is as follows:

Untitled:
The revised hit and run will be a stance that prevents foes you damage from making AoOs against you (on the turn in which you damage them).

Parkour:
The rogue will have the ability to ignore the effects of bad terrain if he begins and ends his movement in good terrain (I'll phrase it more clearly later). This could be either a stance or a power. If it's a power, it only costs under the action economy and not the stance economy. This would sort of balance it out with the technically more versatile wizard movement powers (which would definitely be stances at the very least). This is pretty much my system's "climb walls" except that flavor-wise it makes no distinction between jumping and climbing.

Stealth:
Stealth would work similarly to parkour, but it would give concealment for the duration of a move so long as the move begins and ends with concealment. The concealment is negated on AoOs (it's meant for hiding, not combat). This is basically my system's "hide in shadows" or "hide in plain sight." Like parkour, I'll probably make this an at-will power to balance it out against invisibility (which would be a stance, take a while to cast, and then have conditions that could end it).

Evasion:
Evasion would be a cool stance, and I need at least two stances per class to really make stances matter much. This could work straight like 3x evasion or even like improved evasion (you're spending resources on this). Or I could include a reaction cost to make your save evasionish/improved evasionish. Lots of room to calibrate this really. My only worry is how often it'll be worth turning this stance on. Its applicability is narrow compared with any of the above, which might render it frequently "useless" regardless of how effective it is when it becomes useful.

Sneak Attack:
The most difficult to work with so far, for a few reasons.

1)My damage formula won't handle bonus damage well. It increases the odds of wounding, which can be an instant fight ender. As it stands, rogue proficiencies are lower damage ones (light weapons, thrown weapons) but it would be easy to drop a skill slot on missiles or heavy weapons. For non-damage status effects it would be difficult to determine which to use (both for balance and the "iconic rogue" image).

2)It might be pretty damn easy to catch a guy unable to defend himself. That's the whole point of the way the action economy works right now, but it might make the rogue's finishing move too easy to just start with.

3)It could be really open to multi-attack abuse. If two weapon fighting works like in 3x it could be an easy route to dropping an equal level foe in one round (I balanced the system around three hits, so two hits plus doubled bonus damage could be a too-reliable one-round-kill on a foe of equal level). Even just the ability to hit more targets (without the assumption that you can pile damage on one target free of penalties) will still mean bringing that "finishing move" pain to a whole group, which is not what the rogue is supposed to be about.

4)Procedurally, I can't see this being a stance because I want the rogue to be able to be an opportunist, and take the chance without too much required prep. I almost don't want to make it a separate power (which would handily solve 3 by preventing simultaneous use of extra targets and bonus effects) because a person may or may not know whether a target can dodge. Making a player declare a sneak attack on a foe who is only pretending not to expect it (and therefore isn't an eligible target) could be weird, and players choosing to attack some other way and lose the benefit of the sneak attack because they don't know if a foe will dodge is also weird. I can file this under misc. (like armor proficiency) but that still leaves 3 open.

I'm really just not sure what to do on this one. This is *the* cornerstone of a rogue's combat abilities (besides harassing casters) and it's really frustrating not knowing quite how to handle it in the game.

The rage stance is something else I'm working on. So far, there will be one, two or all of three effects on this stance.

1) All objects everywhere (maybe up to a specific weight limit) do 3d12 damage and may be thrown with the same range increment (probably into the next zone). All objects use heavy weapons or throw, and are modified by strength. This replaces their normal stats, with the exception of keywords like "reach" or "soft." Also modifications (such as from powers or effects) to damage, range, etc. apply after the rage stance's effect (you can't use the damage replacement to get around a damage penalty). You can throw people with the same range increment as everything else, but you have to grab them first. You can still use a crossbow, so long as you intend to throw it at someone.

2) You have innate DR.

3) You have a +3 to strength checks made to break things.

I'm also going to rule that raging barbarians can't talk intelligibly, or that they can only shout sentences of three words or fewer.

Additionally, the rage will end when you stop acting sufficiently angry. If you fail to attack someone or break something for two consecutive rounds, the rage ends and you are staggered. You can't restart the rage until you are no longer staggered.

On the sneak attack issue...possibly you could have it function as a re-roll rather than a bonus (roll twice and take the best), or have it maximize one of the damage dice (only) automatically? Its an interesting problem to have.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;567855On the sneak attack issue...possibly you could have it function as a re-roll rather than a bonus (roll twice and take the best), or have it maximize one of the damage dice (only) automatically? Its an interesting problem to have.

Yeah, it is. I think I'll mirror rage on this one and use a damage swap. 3d12 regardless of weapon.

Then I can take the TWF stuff and put a 1D penalty on any 3 dice attack or up. It'll put a max of 4 dice per round on TWFing (with the downside that DR applies twice, it's about even with a normal attack, except that you can split it between foes).

Since it's become relevant both with rage and with sneak attack (both methods for getting 3d12) I may want to get TWF stuff down.

I think there may be a difference between a "split strike" and a "double strike." I may even include a "main gauche" option for defense.

The double strike is the most potentially problematic. I'm going to allow a person to defend themselves twice with one action against such attacks probably. Or I'm going to make TWFing a full action. Maybe both. We'll see.

The other thing is making sure that the total odds of wounding per round don't increase if you hit the same guy twice. Part of this will be the damage penalty to heavy weapons. Part of this may be a penalty to attack rolls. I'll have to work out the math to figure out the details.

I'm also not sure whether to make people buy these moves, or whether to class them like trip/disarm/grapple. It may be that I make this as easy to use as sword and board or two handed weapons.

I didn't call out skill and ability stuff as going here, but I need to remember what was being discussed on the communication thread.

I made Perception a stat and a save (instead of a group of skills) in this game. Mainly because it makes no damn sense to train in listening, but it still makes sense that some are more perceptive than others (and hunters and elves might be more perceptive than others).

Outside of simple checks, there is more than one sense you make perception checks for. The big three for PCs will be hearing, sight, and scent (the last of which is shared by goblins and trolls). The info you can get includes any of the following:

Presence: Pretty much any sense can determine presence. Determines if someone or something is nearby.

Identity: Not all senses determine identity all the time. You can tell who someone is by their voice, but not based on the sound of a twig they snapped underfoot.

Location: Not all senses determine location. Scent is the biggie here, as it only gives you a vague sense of direction.

Communication: Sight and sound can carry language. Smell can as well, but that's usually more of an ant-monster thing.

Trivial tasks start at zero in this system, while interference, quiet/camouflage, and distance can all increase the difficulty in various ways. I think I may have a general "range increment" mechanic on senses and a rundown of circumstance penalties. So trying to hear a person shouting from across a pitched battle is the kind of thing you could extrapolate a DC for, even though I know most people won't use these rules outside of hiding and seeking and ambush tactics.

So far, my barbarian has the following powers:

Rage is a stance that lets you deal 3d12 with literally anything you can pick up. Likewise you can throw just about anything you can pick up. It also gives you a bonus to break things, and some DR. Two rounds without attacking someone or breaking something ends the rage and inflicts staggering. You can't rage if you are staggered.

Charge is a power that lets you engage with someone, attack, and if the attack hits they can't AoO. Not sure how to word it, or whether it might be reworked such that I can word it more clearly.

Unnamed will probably be a ritual-like self-healing ability. It'll refresh some or all hit points, and will remove at least staggering.

Unnamed like the soldier, I'm thinking there will be some kind of "hit more people" power.

I'm really needing more ideas on this one.

What do you want your barbarian to be able to do exactly?

Quote from: beejazz;577227So far, my barbarian has the following powers:

Rage is a stance that lets you deal 3d12 with literally anything you can pick up. Likewise you can throw just about anything you can pick up. It also gives you a bonus to break things, and some DR. Two rounds without attacking someone or breaking something ends the rage and inflicts staggering. You can't rage if you are staggered.

Charge is a power that lets you engage with someone, attack, and if the attack hits they can't AoO. Not sure how to word it, or whether it might be reworked such that I can word it more clearly.

Unnamed will probably be a ritual-like self-healing ability. It'll refresh some or all hit points, and will remove at least staggering.

Unnamed like the soldier, I'm thinking there will be some kind of "hit more people" power.

I'm really needing more ideas on this one.

I am a fan of giving barbarians some kind of mounted archery or other mounted skills. I think the Tancteri were known for dismounting rapidly from their horses to engage in melee for example. Not sure how you would express that mechanically here though.