Specifically:
Burning Wheel
Mouse Guard
Dogs In The Vineyard
Riddle of Steel

What I am looking for is a simple sum up. So, for example, my very not Forgie game Iridium would be summed thus:

Uses d20 for combat, plus bonuses for specialization in weapons, pluses for stats. You roll over target based on opponent's ability to dodge.

Skills are percentile on a decreasing returns modified by stats.

Many dice types used for weapon damages, weapons have multiple attacks.

Loose use of classes and levels.

Uses hit locations.

Feel free to add to the list if you think there is ones we should know about. Also, if more detail is needed feel free to expand on that point as well.

Thanks,
Bill

Burning Wheel and Mouse Guard have similar base mechanics.  It is a dice pool system where you roll a number of d6s equal to your skill, and each 4-6 is a success.  You must roll equal to a fixed obstacle, or greater than your opponent's successes.  You may gain an extra die for a related skill, and extra dice for help from an opponent.  Also, there are different types of hero points: Fate Points and Persona Points (plus Deeds Points in BW only).  Fate Points can be spent after a roll to make sixes open-end, while Persona Points add a die before the roll.  

Experience involves a number of checks on each skill, where you mark off checks for each roll that you do.  This works differently in BW and MG.  

Fights and other conflicts use an abstract system where you plot in advance a set of three maneuvers from a fixed list: such as Attack, Defend, Feint, and Maneuver.  BW has two different conflict systems: Fight and Duel of Wits.  MG has a single conflict system.

Dogs in the Vineyard

Basic resolution mechanic is to roll a number of dice based on a combination of two stats. Appropriate stats depend on type of conflict (talking, fighting, shooting).

After rolling dice, play enters a bidding phase. Dice are put forward along with fictional justification. The opponent must see (equal) the dice put forward, and may then raise by putting more dice forward. Dice used range from d4 to d10.

Players may escalate conflicts, thereby bringing more dice into play.

The conflict ends when one person cannot see a raise, or when somebody gives. The winner gets his goal.

After the conflict, players roll on the Fallout table, depending on how the dice battle went. Results vary according to die rolls and how far the battle escalated. This mechanic combines both wounding and experience in traditional terms, as it may result in harm or benefit.

Interesting stuff guys.

John, does BW have a lot of successes built in then? It just seems like you would need to set your obstacles (I assume this is the number of successes needed) fairly high.

Droog, wow. So, is it everyone at the table bidding or just the two involved in the conflict or any and all involved in the conflict?

Also, so, it is a single mechanic for all task resolution;i.e. combat and skills?

Also, also, is there a GM in DitV?

Thanks,
Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt;288595So, is it everyone at the table bidding or just the two involved in the conflict or any and all involved in the conflict?

Also, so, it is a single mechanic for all task resolution;i.e. combat and skills?

Also, also, is there a GM in DitV?

When you raise, any chr affected by the raise must see it to stay in. Highest best roll goes first.

There are no skills as such in DitV. Characters have traits, which might be Good shot, Wears glasses, I'm a Dog etc. Traits can be called in for more dice, if you can justify it in the fiction.

The same system is used for all conflicts. The rule of thumb for DitV is that if there's something important at stake, you go to the resolution system, and if it's not, you just resolve it by fiat and move on (Say yes or roll the dice).

There certainly is a GM in DitV and he plays a vital role. He must present a town ripe with conflict and play it to the hilt.

I get the feeling that this thread was an attempt at provocation, but as long as it sticks strictly to discussing mechanics, I'll allow it to remain here, even though none of those you mentioned are technically RPGs.  I guess I'm in a generous mood these days, from all the partying I've been doing.

RPGPundit

Wotta prince.

Quote from: droog;288620When you raise, any chr affected by the raise must see it to stay in. Highest best roll goes first.

There are no skills as such in DitV. Characters have traits, which might be Good shot, Wears glasses, I'm a Dog etc. Traits can be called in for more dice, if you can justify it in the fiction.

The same system is used for all conflicts. The rule of thumb for DitV is that if there's something important at stake, you go to the resolution system, and if it's not, you just resolve it by fiat and move on (Say yes or roll the dice).

There certainly is a GM in DitV and he plays a vital role. He must present a town ripe with conflict and play it to the hilt.

Hmm, do you have a link to a character sheet?

Thanks for taking the time to explain how the game works.

Quote from: RPGPundit;288635I get the feeling that this thread was an attempt at provocation, but as long as it sticks strictly to discussing mechanics, I'll allow it to remain here, even though none of those you mentioned are technically RPGs.  I guess I'm in a generous mood these days, from all the partying I've been doing.

RPGPundit

Not at all. It was instigated by the help thread. You have repeatedly claimed these games are not RPGs. I am not terribly familiar with the mechanics. From what John says, BW sounds bog standard and for the life of me I can;t figure out what is not Trad about it. DitV is a bit odd but it has a TR system I can grok. In fact, I use something similar in my games (by definition not implementation). So, I am perfectly happy to discuss mechanics.

As far as that goes, how does Amber work? What is its TR? Personally, from what I have heard, Amber seems less an RPG than either of these games but I am interested in the mechanics of how it works.

Quote from: HinterWelt;288638Thanks for taking the time to explain how the game works.

It's my hobby!

Link to chr sheet: PDF

Quote from: droog;288639It's my hobby!

Link to chr sheet: PDF

O.k. so the pool of bidding comes from Stats and possibly Traits. The Fallout table is right there on the sheet? And the type of dice are determined by the type of action taken;i.e. Non-Physical d4s, Physical d6...right? So, if it went to "Gunshot" and d10s you could get to dying real fast, yes?

If this is so, it is interesting that action can change the dice and escalate the potential result. I do feel the system seems a bit arcane though. It is difficult to look at the character sheet and have a sense of what does what. Most of the sheet is taken up with reference (not a bad thing).I get the impression this is a system that plays very different from what it reads like.

Thanks for taking the time.

Quote from: RPGPundit;288635none of those you mentioned are technically RPGs.

Huh?

If a game suggests that its participants play roles, isn't it therefore a roleplaying game? No, no, put away the knives! I wouldn't know a Forge game if I fell on it and died, but it sounds to me like they work the same way as most: players create characters, GM preps some situations or areas, players play the characters they made, GM plays the NPCs, everyone contributes to what unfolds, rolling dice sometimes to help resolve conflict and various other states of uncertainty.

What factors dictate that they are not "technically RPGs"?

Quote from: HinterWelt;288595John, does BW have a lot of successes built in then? It just seems like you would need to set your obstacles (I assume this is the number of successes needed) fairly high.

Obstacles are often in the 3-5 range. Skills usually have a max of 6 or so, and are often 2-4.  

Quote from: HinterWelt;288638From what John says, BW sounds bog standard and for the life of me I can;t figure out what is not Trad about it. DitV is a bit odd but it has a TR system I can grok. In fact, I use something similar in my games (by definition not implementation). So, I am perfectly happy to discuss mechanics.

BW is quite traditional in some sense.  There are a number of distinct aspects to it:

1) Rolls for Circles and Wises:  There is an attribute called "Circles" that represents your ability to find people.  If you succeed in a Circles roll, you can define a new NPC within parameters.  If you succeed in a roll on one of the wise skills (which are player-defined) against a GM-defined difficulty, you can define a fact about the game-world.  i.e. If you are skilled at architecture, you can define facts about the architecture of the world.  

2) Let It Ride:  In BW, there is a particular rule about whether the GM can call for rerolls.  Basically, it disallows repeated checks on a single skill.  So if you have to sneak through a camp, the GM can't make you roll more than once on your Sneak.  

3) Abstract positioning and maneuvers for fights:  Rather than choosing distinct moves at all, you roll a contest to see who gets the position they want.  

4) Duel of Wits: There is a detailed process with maneuvers for non-combat conflicts.  This isn't just a simple contest, but an involved system just like combat where you choose maneuvers like Point, Counter-Point, Incite, Obfuscate, etc.  (This is simplified and generic in Mouse Guard, though.)  

5) Experience: Marking a check with every roll is a prominent feature of the game.  You need a certain number of different checks to advance.  In Burning Wheel, this is complex, amounting to a mix of Routine, Difficult, and Challenging checks -- based on your dice relative to the obstacle of the roll.  As you go up, you need more Difficult and Challenging checks even relative to your skill.  In Mouse Guard, this is simplified and you just require a certain number of failures and successes.  

Whether these make either game non-traditional depends on one's definition of tradition.  I wouldn't call them such per se, but they are distinctive designs with their own unique style.  

Note that Burning Empires, a sci-fi game from the same author, has more non-traditional elements by having broad mechanics that cover the sequence of the game in scenes.  Mouse Guard has some of this, having a "player's turn" after each mission where players are explicitly given free rein to set scenes and try things as they like.  (Though in practice, a lot of the rolls are spent recovering from damage.)

Quote from: HinterWelt;288640O.k. so the pool of bidding comes from Stats and possibly Traits. The Fallout table is right there on the sheet? And the type of dice are determined by the type of action taken;i.e. Non-Physical d4s, Physical d6...right? So, if it went to "Gunshot" and d10s you could get to dying real fast, yes?

That seems all correct as far as I know. And it's possible to win a conflict (i.e. gain your chr's goal) while dying from the Fallout table. That actually happened to my chr in one game.

QuoteIf this is so, it is interesting that action can change the dice and escalate the potential result.

The best thing about DitV in my opinion is how hard it pushes you to go to the gun. Very clever stuff.

Quote from: RPGPundit;288635I get the feeling that this thread was an attempt at provocation...

Poor Pundy, persecuted on his own forum.

The original BW is a fairly traditional game with a few flourishes of player-level meta game, even by Pundit's standards. The later games went somewhat farther in this direction, including the Revised edition of BW. DitV is much less traditional in structure, though not weird for the sake of being weird.

-clash