Quote from: HinterWelt;288638Not at all. It was instigated by the help thread. You have repeatedly claimed these games are not RPGs. I am not terribly familiar with the mechanics. From what John says, BW sounds bog standard and for the life of me I can't figure out what is not Trad about it. DitV is a bit odd but it has a TR system I can grok. In fact, I use something similar in my games (by definition not implementation). So, I am perfectly happy to discuss mechanics.

As far as that goes, how does Amber work? What is its TR? Personally, from what I have heard, Amber seems less an RPG than either of these games but I am interested in the mechanics of how it works.

Pundit doesn't know jack about those games. BW is as traditional as you can get, with maybe one or two rules that are a bit unusual (like Let it Ride and that). There's a GM who does exactly the same things as in any other RPG, including vetoing retarded contributions from munchkins and morons. Yes, he has those responsibilities. That said, the game has some rules that encourage and help get a bit more player input on what the players want to do (Beliefs, Instincts and that). I find strong similarities with Pendragon, actually.

DitV is a bit more arcane, as you said, but you still have a GM who prepares a town with problems for the PCs to solve. He plays NPCs like in any other game, he makes judgements on rules and all that. Difference is that the book encourages an active input on the part of the players, specially when creating a Dog and deciding which was his more important test in life.

Seriously, they have some original mechanics, but they're pretty traditional. Same with Sorcerer.

Hi!
  RE: ditv
  Here is a completed character sheet from a game I ran:
http://casualgamerscorner.pbwiki.com/NatesChar
  It really plays a lot like HQ. The only difference is, you make little narrations as you bid dice, poker-style.
  Here is some AP
http://casualgamerscorner.pbwiki.com/Aug14Logs
http://casualgamerscorner.pbwiki.com/Aug28Logs

  I think it is an RPG, if you play it like one. I think it can be something else if you are into that sort of thing. If you ditch a lot of the "standard pitch" for the game and just say to the players, "do you wanna play a wild west paladin with a six shooter?" You will find a group pretty easy.
  The rules are fairly realistic, the only thing that is hard is: fallout happens after the conflict is over. So, you could be dead and not know it...
  The interesting thing of the rules is, if someone is trying to min/max, it is pretty rewarding. Because the only way to get positive XPs, is to risk fallout. In other words, if you roll fallout dice and get a 1, you get the equivalent of XPs you can spend to improve your character.
  There are a bunch of sexual situations suggested by the rules and what not, but I just ignored that and played the parts I like (kind of like how I ignore encumbrance rules in D&D).

  The ability to Fold in a conflict is interesting too. Because it actually gets used. Unlike in other games where its a fight to the death, players are likely to fold if the fight they are in isn't worth fighting for.

  Now, all that aside, I think its asinine how people try to apply the ditv rules set to every conceivable setting. It just doesn't work. Its not a sand box game like that. The rules both reward and punish escalating conflicts. So, it should only be used in a game where the characters themselves would think twice before escalating a conflict. For instance it would be good for a Jedi campaign. But it would be shit awful for a Dungeon crawl.

  Any ways, I hope that helps, I have played a few times and run a few times, so let me know if you have more specific questions about ditv.

John,
first, thank you for taking the time to explain. I have a few follow ups if you have the time.

Quote from: jhkim;288656Obstacles are often in the 3-5 range. Skills usually have a max of 6 or so, and are often 2-4.  


BW is quite traditional in some sense.  There are a number of distinct aspects to it:

1) Rolls for Circles and Wises:  There is an attribute called "Circles" that represents your ability to find people.  If you succeed in a Circles roll, you can define a new NPC within parameters.  If you succeed in a roll on one of the wise skills (which are player-defined) against a GM-defined difficulty, you can define a fact about the game-world.  i.e. If you are skilled at architecture, you can define facts about the architecture of the world.  

I have heard of this in descriptions about BW. Honestly, I think it is an interesting mechanic and the concept behind it (player definition of the setting) is intriguing but, and I am not trying to deride this, it is like many many games I have played. Read that as "game instances, as in sessions". Informally, me as GM or the GM I was playing with would allow a great deal of definition by the characters. That said, I see this as a common trend in forge inspired games (I know, BW was adopted) that they seem to codify what is unspoken rule of thumb in other games. Not good or bad, just an observation.

Quote from: jhkim;2886562) Let It Ride:  In BW, there is a particular rule about whether the GM can call for rerolls.  Basically, it disallows repeated checks on a single skill.  So if you have to sneak through a camp, the GM can't make you roll more than once on your Sneak.  

Wasn't a form of this in 3.0 D20? Maybe that was "Take a ten". Again, I have done this since the 80s in my game just not had it codified.

Quote from: jhkim;2886563) Abstract positioning and maneuvers for fights:  Rather than choosing distinct moves at all, you roll a contest to see who gets the position they want.  

I don't want to sound like a broken record but I actually wrote a system something like this called Bizaar Tales in the late 80s. I will have aspects of this in my game I am writing now.

So, is it all about the combat skill roll? Are the positions defined like "Throw him to the ground" or is it more like "I want to disable him"?

Quote from: jhkim;2886564) Duel of Wits: There is a detailed process with maneuvers for non-combat conflicts.  This isn't just a simple contest, but an involved system just like combat where you choose maneuvers like Point, Counter-Point, Incite, Obfuscate, etc.  (This is simplified and generic in Mouse Guard, though.)  

Do you declare the moves or is it secret (written and revealed)? Mike Crow was describing BW to me and I thought it was something like this but I could be misremembering.

Quote from: jhkim;2886565) Experience: Marking a check with every roll is a prominent feature of the game.  You need a certain number of different checks to advance.  In Burning Wheel, this is complex, amounting to a mix of Routine, Difficult, and Challenging checks -- based on your dice relative to the obstacle of the roll.  As you go up, you need more Difficult and Challenging checks even relative to your skill.  In Mouse Guard, this is simplified and you just require a certain number of failures and successes.  

I like this a lot. A nice alternative to XP yet with a method of built in pacing for advancement.

Quote from: jhkim;288656Whether these make either game non-traditional depends on one's definition of tradition.  I wouldn't call them such per se, but they are distinctive designs with their own unique style.  

To be brutally honest, I am not sure what is Trad and what is not beyond being told repeatedly that my games are Trad to the Trad power. From that I gauge other games from my designs. This is why I said that BW seems trad. Hell, I could be way off on that but I could see that system coming out of HinterWelt easily.

Quote from: jhkim;288656Note that Burning Empires, a sci-fi game from the same author, has more non-traditional elements by having broad mechanics that cover the sequence of the game in scenes.  Mouse Guard has some of this, having a "player's turn" after each mission where players are explicitly given free rein to set scenes and try things as they like.  (Though in practice, a lot of the rolls are spent recovering from damage.)

Thanks John. I wonder how Mice would fair against Squirrels.

Quote from: flyingmice;288694The original BW is a fairly traditional game with a few flourishes of player-level meta game, even by Pundit's standards. The later games went somewhat farther in this direction, including the Revised edition of BW. DitV is much less traditional in structure, though not weird for the sake of being weird.

-clash

It just seems that they still use similar methods (Dice, checks against challenges and roles) to trad games. It makes me wonder what the "not and RPG" complaint is. I mean, you might hate the designers but the games seem solid. I find DitV a bit arcane (sorry, I can;t think of a better term) but not really out there to the point of questioning if it is a game, or if it includes roles and thus is not an RPG.

Quote from: Imperator;288697Seriously, they have some original mechanics, but they're pretty traditional. Same with Sorcerer.

Imperator, could you give a quick summary of Sorcerer?

Thanks guys.

First, thanks for those links. Very helpful.

Quote from: dindenver;288707Now, all that aside, I think its asinine how people try to apply the ditv rules set to every conceivable setting. It just doesn't work. Its not a sand box game like that. The rules both reward and punish escalating conflicts. So, it should only be used in a game where the characters themselves would think twice before escalating a conflict. For instance it would be good for a Jedi campaign. But it would be shit awful for a Dungeon crawl.

  Any ways, I hope that helps, I have played a few times and run a few times, so let me know if you have more specific questions about ditv.

hmm, see, I can't help it. I am, I guess, a Universalist in my game design and approach to games. I could see this as being applied to any genre. The DitV system has some distinct elements to it that if a group desired those, could apply them anywhere. The problem is, people have different expectations and element requirements depending on the genre they play. Some would express these as absolutes while I tend to say they are subjective. Anime does not require a mechanic to fly thourhg the air in perfect martial form. It requires that the group acknowledge that this is the genre and expected in the genre. Then, when you need to close 30 feet to do combat Yakahiratetsumo you just say "I leap in perfect anime style at the Big Bad Guy and attack" then carry out combat in your preferred system, that you and the group enjoy and are comfortable with. Thus, you get Akira run with D20. Yeah, I know, sacrilege. As a small press guy I am supposed to say every game system is a special snowflake that should be charished for the genre it emulates. Meh. I suck.

Thanks,
Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt;288718Imperator, could you give a quick summary of Sorcerer?

Thanks guys.

Sure, mate.

Sorcerer uses a dice-pool system. You can use any kind of dice you want as long as everyone uses the same (d10s, d8s, whatever). You get to use one or maybe two of your stats (Will, Stamina, Lore, Cover, and Power if you're a demon), plus any bonus dice you can get through roleplaying, situational bonus, or from previous successful rolls that are directly related to the current one.

The goal is to get the highest die, either against another character's pool, or against a bunch of dice assigned by the GM if no one's opposing you. The more dice you roll, the better. You compare the outcomes, and the highest individual die wins. Each die you have that is higher than the highest of the other guy counts as an additional victory, and probably can be used as a bonus in following rolls on the same situation / conflict. For example, using d10s:

Ramón rolls 6d10 and gets 4,6,2,8,9,0.
Bill rolls 4d10 and gets 7,7,7,3.

Ramón wins (is my example ) and as he has 3 dice higher than Bill's best (7), he wins with 3 victories.

That's it. When you're fighting there's a chart with damage: damage is expressed as temporary (only next - action) penalties and permanent (last longer than the fight) penalties. If your penalties go beyond Stamina x2 you're out of combat, unless you're a Sorcerer in which case you get a roll of Will vs the dice you want to use for your next action to get over the pain and keep going. It's almost the only chart in the game, apart from the chart summing up the stats involved in different sorcerous ritual. Right after the fight you halve your permanent penalties, which will last a while, and depending on how much you got you're more or less severely injured.

In this game the GM does exactly the same stuff in any other RPG: he decides when a roll is called for, he frames scenes, plays NPCs and so on. Nothing new over there.

Hope it helps! I'm no expert, but I will do my best to answer any question.

Burning Wheel has a stat for your wealth resources, and as far as I understand it (I've never played the game), you roll dice to see if you can purchase something. I REALLY don't get what the problem is with having a certain amount of silver to spend and keeping track of it, at least approximately - surely if I buy one warship, I'll be less able to afford the next one... There's frankly something that gets me every time I read some Forgie game spouting off about how the game is about the story, not about the characters' equipment. It's very hard to express what it is that bugs me about it, but I think it might be that knowing the important items that your character is carrying is just --- not really a distraction from the game at all!!! I mean, give the players some credit, it doesn't take them ten seconds to glance at their character sheets and double-check what they've got, and most of the time they'll remember the main items anyway.

And I REALLY don't like Let It Ride. The text in the book seems to suggest that there are refs out there who just want the player characters to fail, and make them roll and re-roll until they do. I don't know any refs who can be fairly said to ref that way. Sometimes you want to have multiple rolls to see how things progres in different stages. Things like "Am I going to be able to sneak through the enemy camp" should be unpredictable even at the stage when you're half-way through the camp --- so that you might be tempted to turn back half-way through if you hear a twig snap or something.

It seems to me that these two rules are an example of predictability vs. unpredictability being exactly the wrong way round in Forgie games. I damn well know whether I can afford a warship or not - and if I have to go round my mates getting a loan, well, let's roleplay it, not rollplay it! (OK, a few rolls might help, but you get the point.) And when I've snuck half-way through the enemy camp I damn well don't know if I'm going to sneak out the other side. Why should these things be the other way round???

Let it Ride ruins some of the suspense for me. And having a wealth stat --- I just can't see what the point is.

But maybe I'm being horribly unfair? After all, I've never played this game. Perhaps I should keep an open mind.

Quote from: Omnifray;288728Burning Wheel has a stat for your wealth resources, and as far as I understand it (I've never played the game), you roll dice to see if you can purchase something.

I could be misremembering, but isn't that how wealth works in D20 Modern as well?

Yes, but large purchases reduce your wealth rating, so large purchases like boats permanently reduce your capacity to buy more boats.

Which doesn't mean it's a good idea, I've never bothered with it.  Most modern characters require so little in the way of equipment that wealth tracking at the lower amounts seems sorta unimportant.

No idea. Even more pointless in a modern setting though, don't they have bank accounts???

The goal of having a wealth score is to avoid having to do exact accounting, it doesn't matter whether you're doing it in gold coins or deutschemarks.

Quote from: counterspin;288730Yes, but large purchases reduce your wealth rating, so large purchases like boats permanently reduce your capacity to buy more boats.

Exalted is yet another game which uses a similar mechanic, come to think of it.

I think all 2e WW games had a system where your wealth score had a weekly stipend value and a permanent sell off value.  So a rank of 3 gave you $3000 a week but you could permanently downgrade to a rank of 2 to raise $10000.

Quote from: GrimGent;288729I could be misremembering, but isn't that how wealth works in D20 Modern as well?

Yes, also DC Heroes.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;288756Yes, also DC Heroes.

I thought I recalled playing a superhero game that did this but I couldn't place it. Thanks.

Quote from: HinterWelt;288638Not at all. It was instigated by the help thread. You have repeatedly claimed these games are not RPGs. I am not terribly familiar with the mechanics. From what John says, BW sounds bog standard and for the life of me I can;t figure out what is not Trad about it. DitV is a bit odd but it has a TR system I can grok. In fact, I use something similar in my games (by definition not implementation). So, I am perfectly happy to discuss mechanics.

As far as that goes, how does Amber work? What is its TR? Personally, from what I have heard, Amber seems less an RPG than either of these games but I am interested in the mechanics of how it works.

Riiight.. so you came from the thread where I specifically said "these games cannot be discussed in RPG Main", and you go on to post a thread about them on RPG main, and yet you weren't trying to instigate?

:rolleyesbarf:

You know what? I've changed my mind. This thread goes to Off-topic, and consider yourself warned. Don't pull this shit again. Intentionally posting off-topic subjects in the main page in order to disrupt the site just to engage in a personal dispute against a poster (any poster, but me included in that list) is one of the few things we don't allow around here.

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