TheRPGSite

Traveller has a great default universe, but it has proven itself in my homebrew campaign to be an ideal toolkit to create one's own setting.  By its very nature (with things like tech levels and varying designs), Traveller is highly adaptible. You can make what you want with it.
 
Which is why I was saddened to hear about how the new "Serenity" (Firefly) RPG was to be created with the (fairly crappy)Sovereign Stone system instead of Traveller.  I had mentioned this before, in an earlier entry. Now the news appears to be that the finished product leaves a lot to be desired, having been rushed to come out in tandem with the upcoming movie.
 
This is highly disappointing, given that to many Traveller fans, Firefly was their own RPG shown on the small (and now the big) screen.  If it had come out either for the "T20" (Traveller D20) system or the GURPS system (tied into GURPS Traveller), this would have been a masterpiece that would have crossed fandoms, bringing Firefly fans to Traveller (and GURPS or D20), and getting Traveller fans to buy Firefly.
 
Instead, its being done with a system that's been effectively dead for years, and wasn't any good to begin with, which has nothing to warrant its value over and above either D20 or GURPS, or Traveller in any way. You can't even argue that its somehow more suited to the character-focused storylines of the series, not that I'd buy that line of crap anyways (there's nothing about Traveller that inhibits characters, in fact the "prior history" mechanic is one of the best ways of encouraging RP and interesting characters, without slithering into absurd narrativist claptrap).
 
I mean, why the hell would they pick Margaret Weis's company for this? Even Unisystem, godawful and overhyped system that is, would have at least made more sense than this, seeing as how its been the company Joss Whedon has dealt with up till now!  Not only can I not comprehend the design decision behind this, I can't comprehend the business decision.
 
Ah well, there's another licensed game I know I won't be playing... but that's fine, I'll keep going with Traveller which more than meets my "small starship in a big universe" fix.

RPGPundit September 23 2005

Quote from: RPGPundit... Even Unisystem, godawful and overhyped system that is, would have at least made more sense than this, seeing as how its been the company Joss Whedon has dealt with up till now! ...

I agreed with everything in this post except for your characterisation of Unisystem.

I think Unisystem -- or at least Cinematic Unisystem (as found in Buffy & Angel) -- is a damn fine system.  

I'd be curious to know why specifically you dislike it.

Also, iirc, Eden Studios made a bid for Serenity, but didn't pony up as much cash as Weiss.  I don't think Whedon played a role in the decision (but I'm not 100 percent sure).

Quote from: AkrasiaAlso, iirc, Eden Studios made a bid for Serenity, but didn't pony up as much cash as Weiss.

And that article on space westerns in their house zine comes pretty close to being Unisystem Firefly in all but name.

(shrugs) I've seen some Traveller conversions for Serenity but it's not really needed. Just pick your favorite border (sub)sector and have at it. I lean towards GURP Traveller's Interstellar Wars right now with bits cribbed from most every edition of Traveller setting wise now. In particular QLI's Gateway book has some useful pocket empires and client states. TNE and now 1248 have some regions littered with boneyards good for warzones and looting.

Add some Chinese and slang from the online Firefly fan sites to taste.

I use the SERENITY RPG for a sourcebook, really.
Sovereign Stone was a pretty shitty game, but I didn't have any big problems with the mechanics. It was just your typical fantasy-heartbreaker, an ugly one at that.
I've said before that the Serenity RPG was a missed opportunity to make a lot of cash for the industry, but as far as Firefly/Serenity fans go, I don't think it's gonna matter a whole lot one way or the other.
I know plenty of people using D20 Future or Traveller (classic) to run their Firefly games without a hitch. There's also a really good adaptation of Firefly for Savage Worlds (my own favorite system), somewhere out there.
It really doesn't matter all that much what the industry promotes, as long as there's some fan that has the time to string together an alternative, even if its in their own home.

When I tried to run Serenity for my group, they revolted and insisted I change the system, so I used my own Cold Space and dropped it in, porting the social stuff over, and they were happy. I didn't think the system was so bad, but they did - they've never done this before.

-clash

JFTR, not all traveller fhans liked firefly/serenity. I tried to watch ff when it was reran, but between the country twangy music and the general 'western in space, y'all!" theme I just....couldn't. After suffering thru a couple episodes I just couldn't go on.

So not all traveller fhans liked firefly, and I never even bothered with serenity.

I loved both Firefly and Serenity. What's a fhan?

-clash

Quote from: AkrasiaAlso, iirc, Eden Studios made a bid for Serenity, but didn't pony up as much cash as Weiss.  I don't think Whedon played a role in the decision (but I'm not 100 percent sure).

Incorrect -- George passed on it entirely, for two very good reasons. First, the ratings of Firefly were significantly below Angel, which were significantly below Buffy. He'd extrapolated the sales curve, and it didn't go the direction he wanted. Now, of course, we know about the massive mobilization of the fanbase that made merchandisers of the film a big wad of cash, but he was working with the data he had, and made a reasonable decision.

The second reason was that Serenity was handled by Universal, a completely different company from Fox, with whom George had a relationship with via the Buffy/Angel licenses.

Speaking of traveller, has anyone ever noticed that none of the ship maps in gurps traveller have life support systems on them?

Quote from: PaulChapmanIncorrect  ...

Thanks for the correction and information.  :)

I thought the Serenity rules were all right. Not great but workable. I know at least one campaign that runs Serenity as written successfully.

Not my cup of java, but I didn't think the rules were BAD.

Chuck

Quote from: Dominus NoxSpeaking of traveller, has anyone ever noticed that none of the ship maps in gurps traveller have life support systems on them?

That's because Life Support is almost entirely either controls or accounted for between decks. A deckplan wouldn't show it, just as the floorplan of a house wouldn't show HVAC, water supply, central vacuum, and the like.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceThat's because Life Support is almost entirely either controls or accounted for between decks.

Don't recall any Traveller deckplans that had some box marked "Life Support" or a Traveller space combat system that could hit it. Even T4's book of deckplan modules, Architect's Manual, only has life support controls, and those on the bridge modules. And that's in a 112 page book of nothing but deckplan bits. :eek: (cheated-searched the PDF :p)

Correction, TNE has a Life Support combat result, figures. FF&S likely accounts for it somewhere in design, but hey that's a Technical Architecture for you. ;)

So Eden passed on Serenity but were looking to steal the Stargate license?

That's absolutely ridiculous.  I'm guessing those graphs were drawn in crayon because to me it looks like he completely failed to factor in the degree of commitment of the fans and took only into account viewer ratings (which is ridiculous anyway considering that the time-shifting phenomenon was already apparent in those days).

"Duh... my employees love me because I manage with data".

Quote from: Casey777Don't recall any Traveller deckplans that had some box marked "Life Support" or a Traveller space combat system that could hit it. Even T4's book of deckplan modules, Architect's Manual, only has life support controls, and those on the bridge modules. And that's in a 112 page book of nothing but deckplan bits. :eek: (cheated-searched the PDF :p)

Correction, TNE has a Life Support combat result, figures. FF&S likely accounts for it somewhere in design, but hey that's a Technical Architecture for you. ;)

I'm not familiar with Traveller past Classic - I have many of the LBBs, but didn't play it much, and haven't since I began writing my own SF games - but Dominus Nox was only talking about the ship deckplans, where they really wouldn't show up at all unless they were engineering plans. AFA the combat results thing goes, that sounds like an error to me, or perhaps a hidden survival mechanic, but judging by CT, I doubt that.

My big issue with Traveller deck plans is the space allocated for hydrogen fuel is ridiculously small, even assuming 100% fusion efficiency.

-clash

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThat's absolutely ridiculous.  I'm guessing those graphs were drawn in crayon because to me it looks like he completely failed to factor in the degree of commitment of the fans and took only into account viewer ratings (which is ridiculous anyway considering that the time-shifting phenomenon was already apparent in those days).

In terms of staying power, Stargate had been cancelled from Showtime, and the fan commitment brought it back, and kept it going for ten seasons, plus supported three seasons of the spinoff.

I'd say Stargate fans have as much, if not more, commitment as Firefly fans.

Hi, Paul - welcome, if no one else has told you so already.

Have you met Dominus Nox, yet?;)

Quote from: mattormegHi, Paul - welcome, if no one else has told you so already.

Have you met Dominus Nox, yet?;)

We've met on other forums, where he's known as "the mad locker" for closing any thread that any whiney little bitch complained about, or might possibly offend someone, somewhere, somehow.

As to greetings, how about...........:flameon:

I doubt he'll stay, he probably won't like a forum where he can't lock any thread he suspects might possibly become objectionable at some point in the future.

Quote from: mattormegHi, Paul - welcome, if no one else has told you so already.

Howdy! :)

Quote from: mattormegHave you met Dominus Nox, yet?;)

Hard to miss, isn't he?

Dunno what you said about me, chapman, I've got you on my twit filter. I mean, WTF should I bother to read what you say when you don't allow anyone who disagrees with you to post on a forum you and your "buddy" hackard run?

Quote from: flyingmicebut Dominus Nox was only talking about the ship deckplans, where they really wouldn't show up at all unless they were engineering plans. AFA the combat results thing goes, that sounds like an error to me, or perhaps a hidden survival mechanic, but judging by CT, I doubt that.

My big issue with Traveller deck plans is the space allocated for hydrogen fuel is ridiculously small, even assuming 100% fusion efficiency.

(nods) Well I just was wondering if life support showed up as a damagable "location" in the rules, which if it so it might have shown up on more deckplans. Don't know of any specifically TNE deckplans though. TNE's ship design system is like GURPS Vehicles but in metric, quite a change from CT.

Your point balances out the deckplan designer complaint of having to devote  so much space to fuel compared to say Star Wars ships. ;) I chalk it up to the general Traveller focus on a gameable type of science fiction. Not pure soap opera, nor uber-hard SF, but definately playable. (gunners required for ship weapons, limited AI/advanced robots, less whizbang gear, human-centered, etc.)

Quote from: Dominus NoxI've got you on my twit filter.

The internet is made of iron.

Quote from: Casey777(nods) Well I just was wondering if life support showed up as a damagable "location" in the rules, which if it so it might have shown up on more deckplans. Don't know of any specifically TNE deckplans though. TNE's ship design system is like GURPS Vehicles but in metric, quite a change from CT.

Your point balances out the deckplan designer complaint of having to devote  so much space to fuel compared to say Star Wars ships. ;) I chalk it up to the general Traveller focus on a gameable type of science fiction. Not pure soap opera, nor uber-hard SF, but definately playable. (gunners required for ship weapons, limited AI/advanced robots, less whizbang gear, human-centered, etc.)

Really I was just curious as to where the life support was on traveller ships, sinc etraveller has always leaned more towards serious science rather than space opera. Life support is going to be a critical issue on spacecraft, and having it damaged will be one of the major issues that would be involved with ship combat.

I'd think there'd be life support damage in the rules for an even moderately hard sf game, and as such life support needs to be represented somehow.

Quote from: Dominus NoxDunno what you said about me, chapman, I've got you on my twit filter. I mean, WTF should I bother to read what you say when you don't allow anyone who disagrees with you to post on a forum you and your "buddy" hackard run?

But you're actually reading and answering him... :rolleyes:

Quote from: Dominus NoxReally I was just curious as to where the life support was on traveller ships, sinc etraveller has always leaned more towards serious science rather than space opera. Life support is going to be a critical issue on spacecraft, and having it damaged will be one of the major issues that would be involved with ship combat.

I'd think there'd be life support damage in the rules for an even moderately hard sf game, and as such life support needs to be represented somehow.

Like I said, I agree it should be a damage location, but outside of controls it will be located between decks, just like in an office building, thus it won't show on deckplans. Between decks should be HVAC ducting, data cables, water and waste lines, power cables and the like. If you are looking for an engineering plan or maintenance plan, that's different, but no-one draws them. There isn't enough interest.

-clash

Quote from: PaulChapmanIn terms of staying power, Stargate had been cancelled from Showtime, and the fan commitment brought it back, and kept it going for ten seasons, plus supported three seasons of the spinoff.

I'd say Stargate fans have as much, if not more, commitment as Firefly fans.

Paul makes some good points here, Stargate is a massively successfull series with a very solid fan following.  In terms of licences I'd personally far rather own Stargate than Firefly.

BTW, it's off topic but I've never really had any problems with the SJGames boards, different boards have different rules and if one doesn't like a particular board's rules one doesn't have to post there.  I don't really see much more to say than that.

Quote from: ImperatorBut you're actually reading and answering him... :rolleyes:

Actually, I saw he had a post after mine, assumes it was a reply and let the bastard know I wasn't even going to read it.

Quote from: rpgpundit on  October 24, 2006 Lost Licenses and Vaporware"Eden. . . claimed, apparently, that they didn't want it, because they calculated that Firefly was a less successful show"

Uhm no they didn't. Not that I know of anyway.

They would've been negotiating with Universal rather than Fox for the rights. What I understood was that the rights to Serenity were going at a much higher price than Angel did, so the game couldn't ever have been profitable for them.

(Didn't know where else to put this, since I don't have a Xanga account.)

Well, that's cool, but someone posted this bit of data here on theRPGsite, where apparently Eden's reasoning was that Angel was a more popular show than Firefly, and Angel was only barely worth the license in terms of sales, so it stood to reason that Firefly would not be worth it.

RPGPundit

Angel was a waste of money.  It covered much of the same territory as Buffy and the books they did put out really didn't explore very much of the Angel universe with the idea of Champions, the Powers that Be and so on.

The book in itself was useful enough because it carried loads of generic superpowers but in reality, you could EASILY run an Angel game with the Buffy rules.

It's like Evil Dead... was there REALLY enough in that to justify a whole game?

Both Angel and Evil Dead could easily have been handled in the same way as Firefly as "generic" articles in ESP.

Quote from: RPGPunditWell, that's cool, but someone posted this bit of data here on theRPGsite, where apparently Eden's reasoning was that Angel was a more popular show than Firefly, and Angel was only barely worth the license in terms of sales, so it stood to reason that Firefly would not be worth it.

If you're indirectly citing my post earlier in this thread, then you're projecting your own conclusion. I did not say, nor did I insinuate, that Angel was "barely worth" the fees. In fact, I don't have any data on the profitability of the Angel line -- I'd assume it made money, but was more of a time/resource sink than Eden wanted to deal with.

Quote from: RPGPunditWell, that's cool, but someone posted this bit of data here on theRPGsite, where apparently Eden's reasoning was that Angel was a more popular show than Firefly, and Angel was only barely worth the license in terms of sales, so it stood to reason that Firefly would not be worth it.

RPGPundit

Ok, what I feel a need to say here is that gamers are different that TV show audiences, and so using the popularity of a TV show as a way of saying that a game will be popular is at best a haphazard approach with a low order of success.

I mean, you can keep a TV show going with a walking barbi doll in a tight outfit  even if she couldn't act her way out of paper bag (A'la jeri ryan on voyager) or by having a couple women having a sexual affair but a RPG audience is harder to please than a TV audience, the gamers tend to want a little intelligence, plot and thought provoking material in their products, unlike most TV audiences.


This does not mean that I don't think any TV shows are good candidates for RPGs, in fact I'd love to see a good BSG RPG, but BSG has a lot of gaming potential. A lot of TV shows are just about "hot young" pseudo actors and those shows won't have legs in the RPG field.

Quote from: Dominus NoxA lot of TV shows are just about "hot young" pseudo actors and those shows won't have legs in the RPG field.

You're absolutely correct.

(http://www.irook.com/images/products/product_2434.jpg)

(http://www.avalanchepress.com/images/LittlePeople350.jpg)

(http://www.white-wolf.com/retail/RetailDownloads/2004PDFs/7July04PDF/ExaltedSavantandSorceror.jpg)

That Exalted one makes Curse of the Azure Bonds look like Whistler's Mother.

I'm guessing she doesn't wear that outfit when she's on her period.

Quote from: Dominus NoxThis does not mean that I don't think any TV shows are good candidates for RPGs, in fact I'd love to see a good BSG RPG, but BSG has a lot of gaming potential. A lot of TV shows are just about "hot young" pseudo actors and those shows won't have legs in the RPG field.

Because, you know, BSG 90120 never relies on anything as tawdry as sex to keep people interested.

Quote from: AosBecause, you know, BSG 90120 never relies on anything as tawdry as sex to keep people interested.

Absolutely not!


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v623/mdemaet/BattlestarGalactica-TriciaHelfer03n.jpg)

(http://scifi.about.com/library/graphics/bg44.jpg)

(http://z.about.com/d/scifi/1/0/r/F/1/bgsgall12.jpg)

Quote from: RPGPunditIf it had come out either for the "T20" (Traveller D20) system or the GURPS system (tied into GURPS Traveller), this would have been a masterpiece that would have crossed fandoms, bringing Firefly fans to Traveller (and GURPS or D20), and getting Traveller fans to buy Firefly.

I don't think so.  If you're going to make a GURPS Firefly, why tie it to Traveller at all?  Browncoats don't give a shit about Traveller, and there will be a certain percentage (not marginal IMO) of the potential non-Browncoat customer base who will resent the implication that they need umpteen extra sourcebooks beyond the core to play Firefly.  If you're going to make GURPS Firefly (or d20 Firefly for that matter), make it a standalone book and maximise your appeal.

KoOS

I despise the new BSG.

RPGPundit

I knew about avalanche press and it's softcore porn covers but decided not to mention it out of good taste.

@pundy, you're free to dislike the new BSG if you wish, your loss.

Quote from: Dominus Nox.

@pundy, you're free to dislike the new BSG if you wish.

I bet that's a relief.

Quote from: RPGPunditI despise the new BSG.

RPGPundit

I actually like the new BSG...did you like the original?

I disliked the original (other than the ships,cylons and colonial uniforms).

I wonder how many people hate the new like the old and vice versa.

The new BSG needs flying motorcyles....come on, search your feelings, you know it's true!!!!

I thought the first series of BSG was superb.  I thought the second series was empty-headed directionless shit.  The original BSG doesn't really enter into my beliefs.

I'm doubly annoyed by the extensive use of the blonde chick though.  A) She looks like she has tits like a spaniel's ears. and B) she's so skinny I bet she looks like a holocaust survivor when she takes her clothes off.

Additionally, I don't really like the new Dr. Who OR Torchwood.  In fact, I don't like any of the genre TV that's on at the moment.  Lost is okay but I've dragged my feet over buying the second part of series 2.

There's just so much cool stuff available on DVD these days that it seems silly to waste your time watching Moore and his cronies vaguely searching for something to write about and failing.

Quote from: rcsampleI actually like the new BSG...did you like the original?

I disliked the original (other than the ships,cylons and colonial uniforms).

I wonder how many people hate the new like the old and vice versa.

The new BSG needs flying motorcyles....come on, search your feelings, you know it's true!!!!

I loved the new BSG, though I haven't seen season two yet.

I thought the original was meretricious shite.

Flying motorcycles are being held back for the reinvention of CHIPS I understand.

Quote from: BalbinusFlying motorcycles are being held back for the reinvention of CHIPS I understand.

Don't taunt me with false promises!

Quote from: BalbinusI loved the new BSG, though I haven't seen season two yet.

I thought the original was meretricious shite.

Flying motorcycles are being held back for the reinvention of CHIPS I understand.

As always, what he said. Oh, and fuck Dirk Benedict, by the way. What an asshole.

Quote from: rcsampleDon't taunt me with false promises!

I've seen the advance clips, sadly Ponch will be riding Jon more than the flying scooter.

Quote from: rcsampleI actually like the new BSG...did you like the original?

I disliked the original (other than the ships,cylons and colonial uniforms).

I wonder how many people hate the new like the old and vice versa.

The new BSG needs flying motorcyles....come on, search your feelings, you know it's true!!!!

I was a huge fan of the original BSG, which is probably why I just can't accept the new one. If the new series hadn't been called BSG, maybe I'd look at it differently; as it is, I feel like they Bruce Baughed it... though the use of that term is something of an exaggeration, the new BSG being no doubt better than anything Baugh could ever have come up with.

RPGPundit

I will note, however, that I LOVE the new Dr.Who. To me, it demonstrates the difference in how to do a remake the RIGHT way. They made  it different from the original, while still staying true to the characteristics and story; you feel like they're picking up from where they left off, but without requiring that you like or even know the original series.

RPGPundit

BSG is the first genre TV show I've been into since Space Above and Beyond was canceled.  Star Trek was cool when I was five, I guess.  X-Files collapsed under its own weight after the movie came out.  Joss Whedon exists on a wavelength that renders his "talent" completely unobservable to my eyes.

BSG manages to cram together dogfights, Eddy Olmos and big fuckin' ships in such a way that it pleases me greatly.

I got the DVD set and watched with my pops over the course of a weekend.  We would finish one disc before I rose, robotic, to insert a new one.  When all the discs were finished, I drove, robotic, to Wal-Mart.  There I procured new discs, and the cycle began again.

Anything that gets conversations going between me and my old man is quality.  Everything else just put BSG over the top.

This clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzy1RNJBUo4) pretty much sums up how cool I think it is. :)

Quote from: RPGPunditI was a huge fan of the original BSG, which is probably why I just can't accept the new one. If the new series hadn't been called BSG, maybe I'd look at it differently; as it is, I feel like they Bruce Baughed it... though the use of that term is something of an exaggeration, the new BSG being no doubt better than anything Baugh could ever have come up with.

RPGPundit

I agree it's not a reinvention of the original series, it's a new and largely unrelated series with a few bits in common.  Were I a fan of the original, I imagine that would rather annoy me.

I gave up trying to link the two iterations of BSG, and have decided instead to judge them each on their own merits.

It's like having two friends named Jerry: One's a big dork who dresses funny but will always run you a game of Encounter Critical when you ask, while the other Jerry is really smart and has really interesting conversations with you, only he kind of has a stick up his ass and his blonde girlfriend won't shut the fuck up about "her plan".

Quote from: ImperatorAs always, what he said. Oh, and fuck Dirk Benedict, by the way. What an asshole.

What did The Faceman(tm) ever do to you? Run over your daggit?

Quote from: rcsampleWhat did The Faceman(tm) ever do to you? Run over your daggit?

Read this article by him (http://www.dirkbenedictcentral.com/home/articles-readarticle.php?nid=5). Here he complains bitterly about the original series "being all a television show based on hope, spiritual faith, and family is unimagined and regurgitated as a show of despair, sexual violence and  
family dysfunction," and some other ridiculous shit.

Quote from: ImperatorRead this article by him (http://www.dirkbenedictcentral.com/home/articles-readarticle.php?nid=5). Here he complains bitterly about the original series "being all a television show based on hope, spiritual faith, and family is unimagined and regurgitated as a show of despair, sexual violence and  
family dysfunction," and some other ridiculous shit.

Fascinatingly, I tend to agree with him.  On quite a lot of his points.

Thanks for sharing this eloquent (if poorly written) glimpse into a mind I never knew I appreciated.  :)

Well, fuck me. I'd never read that before, but he pretty well captures everything I dislike about the BSG remake.

Good for him!

RPGPundit

Quote from: rcsampleWhat did The Faceman(tm) ever do to you? Run over your daggit?

Dirk Benedict, I met him at a convention once. He was at an autograph table with no line at it, I felt sorry for him and talked to him. He seemed nice enough, I congratulated him on beating cancer.

He was Ok as far as celebs at a convention go.

Quote from: ImperatorRead this article by him (http://www.dirkbenedictcentral.com/home/articles-readarticle.php?nid=5). Here he complains bitterly about the original series "being all a television show based on hope, spiritual faith, and family is unimagined and regurgitated as a show of despair, sexual violence and  
family dysfunction," and some other ridiculous shit.

I think what he says is mostly true but it's actually what makes the new series good. I mean, my god, these people have lost everything, home, family, friends, etc, and are hunted like animals. Of course they're going to be a little frayed around the edges.

But the show also has people still having faith in their gods or humanity, and bearing up under terrible conditions. It's in some ways a better testament to humanity than the soap opera neat and clean original version, where people got over all those little things way too fast to be believed.

The fact that they keep going depite not being perfect makes the show more human and more believable. it shows humanity in crisis, as adama once said "warts and all."

Yeah, how the hell is New BSG not about hope?  If the humans didnt have any hope, faith or family values, they wouldn't keep going.  They wouldn't fight so hard to survive.

I would like to see a light-hearted space opera show on TV, though.

Quote from: ImperatorRead this article by him (http://www.dirkbenedictcentral.com/home/articles-readarticle.php?nid=5). Here he complains bitterly about the original series "being all a television show based on hope, spiritual faith, and family is unimagined and regurgitated as a show of despair, sexual violence and  
family dysfunction," and some other ridiculous shit.

I agree with Dirk 100%.

The only positive thing I can think of regarding "new Galactica" is that in 20 years everyone will have forgotten it and discarded it like the trash it is while the original is still remembered.

Dude, this isn't Pagliacci we're talking about here.  It's an hour a week of spacemen fighting robots (with or without robot dogs providing delish comic relief.)  In twenty years pop culture will have moved on, endy story.

Katee Sackhoff will host a "remember when" special on ScFi.  Grace Park will be noticeably absent, having demanded a larger appearance fee than the rest of the cast combined.  There will be a photo montage of the late, lamented Eddy Olmos.  Then, as now, the Old/New BSG debate will be even more meaningless than the Burned Furs movement.

The original BSG is one science fiction show that I utterly hated even in it's first airing (I was 8 and cared a lot about dialogue). Every episode had several lines of cringe-worthy dialogue (pretty much like the '70's Buck Rogers series*), so I went in expecting that the mini-series would be gawd-fucking-awful and was stunned by how good it turned out to be.

I was accused once of only liking the new BSG because it in that person's mind, it's "edgy" (which is the very last thing that particular person would like.) Except that isn't it. I like  EJO/Adama because he has a much more complete range of emotion (he's a more 3-dimensional character) than LG/Adama.

I'm particularly intrigued by Benedict's statement that smoking, gambling, and sex are no longer allowed on tv for men. Within the past three weeks, I've observed male protagonists on the NBC show Heroes, gamble, use heroin, have sex, and smoke. CSI on CBS shows males doing such things nearly every week! His problem seems largely to be that women are being shown doing these things in equal (or nearly so) amounts, and he doesn't like to think of them that way. As it happens however, Dirk Benedict's personal squick factor is irrelevant to the rest of us, unless he's about to perform bowel surgery.



(*I've been thinking for the last few months how much I'd love to see Buck Rogers get the same treatment!)

The old Buck Rogers show is pretty craptastic, but it has one eternal feature which can never be denied:

Hot chicks in sexy costumes.

Every week, guaranteed.  Kids, tell Dad!

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!The old Buck Rogers show is pretty craptastic, but it has one eternal feature which can never be denied:

Hot chicks in sexy costumes.

Every week, guaranteed.  Kids, tell Dad!

(http://www.machinefiend.com/images/blog/wilma.jpg)

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How can you go wrong?

Quote from: GabrielI agree with Dirk 100%.

The only positive thing I can think of regarding "new Galactica" is that in 20 years everyone will have forgotten it and discarded it like the trash it is while the original is still remembered.

Hey, I like Dirk too...I just think he's wrong in this instance...

Quote from: Gabrielwhile the original is still remembered.

Yes, how will I ever forget:

(http://static.flickr.com/23/32996558_3db7adf8fc_m.jpg)

and


(http://www.battlestar-galactica.fr/temp/database/dossiers/img/boxey%20muffy.jpg)


and also:

(http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/original/graphics/102_m.jpg)

My almost final word in the topic...Other than the original series ships, cylons and Starbuck I enjoy the new BSG more...

Quote from: rcsample(http://www.machinefiend.com/images/blog/wilma.jpg)

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How can you go wrong?

Well, she can't.  Look at the shape of his head!  

"*beedee-beedee-beedee*  I have five speeds!"

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Well, she can't.  Look at the shape of his head!  

"*beedee-beedee-beedee*  I have five speeds!"

Twiki:  Made for the ladies.....

Trust me.  In 20-30 years, the new BSG will look even MORE dated than the original.  It's too mired in it's self indulgent wallowing in the aftermath of 9/11.  It's self conscious edginess will be just as painful for future viewers to see as Apollo's scenes with Boxey.

The original could always fall back on its mythic qualities.  The current version can only fall back to it's cynical and nilhistic worldview.

I call foul.  Anybody using Galactica 1980 to show how the original series sucked is playing dirty pool.

Also, Buck Rogers was a helluva show.

Quote from: GabrielTrust me.  In 20-30 years, the new BSG will look even MORE dated than the original.  It's too mired in it's self indulgent wallowing in the aftermath of 9/11.  It's self conscious edginess will be just as painful for future viewers to see as Apollo's scenes with Boxey.

Maybe..it's possible that they'll both look/feel dated.  Thinking on it, what's wrong with liking something in the era(the '70's) it occurred but not necessarily now?

For example, I loved Knight Rider back in the day, now I like it as a guilty pleasure.  I will not defend that it is a quality show or deep entertainment, but I still like a show that uses the "Evil Twin" cliche with reckless abandon.


Actually the biggest problem I have with both BSGs, is the "Gilligan's Island" paradox.  A show about finding the McGuffin, but if you find/attain the McGuffin, the show is over. Or you have to lose it again.
These shows can work, they just have to know when to quit.

Quote from: jrientsI call foul.  Anybody using Galactica 1980 to show how the original series sucked is playing dirty pool.

Damn, you got me...

Quote from: jrientsAlso, Buck Rogers was a helluva show.

I dunno, man.  Remember the one about the rock music that made kids riot?  Or the space vampire?  

I'm not saying it's not enjoyable, but objectively, it is pretty bad.  Note, however, that I do acknowledge its judicious (and welcome!) inclusion of hotties, and that'll never age.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I'm not saying it's not enjoyable, but objectively, it is pretty bad.  

How can you say this is bad?
(http://www.fiskofury.com/MY/HAWK-BUCK-ROGERS.jpg)

or this:

(http://www.buck-rogers.com/film_and_series/gallery/images/cast/buck_guest03.jpg)

and finally:

(http://www.buck-rogers.com/film_and_series/gallery/images/buck/buck08.jpg)

*sigh*  Now I gotta explain what "bad" means?

Objectively, the show was kinda badly-written, with some silly creative decisions.  

It's still fun, it's still enjoyable, it still makes memories.  It just doesn't hit quality marks, that's all.

One of my favorite movies is Xanadu, so don't go thinking I'm some sort of snob.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!*sigh*  Now I gotta explain what "bad" means?

No, not to me.  I know what you're talking about. Just taking advantage of putting up shots of Gary Coleman.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Objectively, the show was kinda badly-written, with some silly creative decisions.  

It's still fun, it's still enjoyable, it still makes memories.  It just doesn't hit quality marks, that's all.

Yep.  Much of the 70's, early 80's was the same for TV.  I mean, how many times can the A-Team shoot at a truck/jeep/car have it fly through the air and crash horribly...followed by everyone getting out of the vehicle alive.

Doesn't mean I don't like it when Hannibal says: "I love it when a plan comes together".

It's the shows we grew up with. What else can you say about it.

Quote from: rcsampleIt's the shows we grew up with.

Sort of...I was in Mexico between 1981 and 1987, so I actually missed a good chunk of US TV its first time around.  I mean, some of it was on, but I didn't always get to see it.