Reconciliation

[Ratman_tf]

Well, don't take jhkim's anecdotes to seriously.  Were you to believe everything he tells you, he's had personal experiences with every topic that shows up on this site (from BLM churches to trans volleyball players).  In fact, his general modus operandi is to jump in on a thread with a personal anecdote that supposedly should caution you against overly generalizing some liberal sacred cow.  Which, of course, is stupid on its face.

Eirikrautha - my anecdotes are genuine, which can often be checked since I'm public with my identity. If you have doubts, here's my church:



Source: https://www.uufrc.org/racial-justice/

If you want to log in then, I'll be worship associate on services on this New Year's Day at 10:30am Pacific time. My full name is John Hanju Kim - I'm listed as "Hanju Kim" in the services. I've been worship associate about a dozen times over the past two years - I can give links for me speaking in past services if anyone's interested.


EDITED TO ADD: I'm happy to talk more about the topic in another post, but the criticism that I'm lying about my anecdotes is off. I do feel indignant at the accusation, but I am happy to have dialog about the other points.

Like most progressive regressives, they make it sound like America is more racist now than in the past.

https://www.uua.org/multiculturalism/racial-justice/history/jtw

Yet we live in a world in which oppressive structures prevent us from living out these Principles. Although legal segregation in America ended with the passage of civil rights laws in the 1960's, many primary institutions and systems of our nation including business, health care, criminal justice, media, etc., were little affected by these laws.

In our congregations white culture is considered to be the norm and People of Color are expected to assimilate into this white culture.

The focus of much of our justice work is on the victims of racism and not the oppressors that benefit from racism.

We need to put greater focus on the power and privilege that white people have in our racist society.

This is the bullshit screed of ideologues who need an oppressor/oppressed narrative to drive hate and division in society.

[Chris24601]

Eirikrautha - my anecdotes are genuine, which can often be checked since I'm public with my identity. If you have doubts, here's my church:



Source: https://www.uufrc.org/racial-justice/

If you want to log in then, I'll be worship associate on services on this New Year's Day at 10:30am Pacific time. My full name is John Hanju Kim - I'm listed as "Hanju Kim" in the services. I've been worship associate about a dozen times over the past two years - I can give links for me speaking in past services if anyone's interested.

If I were you I would ask the church at the very least to tone it down, or to change to another church.
America's racial issues are toxic, and after moving here I have come to the realization that BLM and the current Democratic party are at the center of this, not so much the Republicans. Notice how Biden reacted to the Georgia voting laws, despite that nobody could actually explain how the law was racist ("Jim Crow on steroids", why the hell would you say that right after the riots started to die down). Another example of how far it has gone are various statements by Nick Cannon, and his show was still promoted everywhere in LA despite widely known anit-white racist statements. The LGBTQ part is sort of reinforcing that this church supports the hard line leftists. Conservatives would probably stop right there at the door and go elsewhere. So I am pretty sure, seeing this image of the church, it's part of the movement that is making America worse, not better.

But making America worse is THE GOAL of the Left.

How else to get people whose lives were pretty good to go along with Leftist policies whose stated purpose is to "help" but their only real function is to further enrich selected elitists?

Undermine local law enforcement and make crime rampant so they can push an expanded federal police force and gun confiscation so the public can't protest when cronies embezzle their tax dollars.

Drive up fuel prices with their policies to push billions upon billions into the pockets of their "green energy" cronies.

Drive up inflation to suck wealth out of the middle class and into the institutions given all that freshly created money.

Keep the population divided with disgusting and divisive social issues so they won't unite against the people robbing everyone blind.

Divide and conquer is the plan of the Left. It's why you can't deal honestly with them. They aren't looking for a solution or middle ground, just more division so they can continue to conquer.

Let's also be clear that the Three Micks (McConnel, McCarthy, McDaniel) representing the establishment Republicans are all in on divide and conquer to rape us of our wealth too. They're mainly there to provide a false choice while the Uniparty keeps moving the ball forward and as long as they get their cut of the spoils they're happy to let it continue.

President Trump was an existential threat to their grift because he was uniting the middle and essentially doing a hostile takeover of the Republican wing of the Uniparty Vulture and was moving to shut down many of their grifts like foreign aid kickbacks, Chinese money for sucking our manufacturing class dry, trying to end the Endless Wars that funneled all sorts of money to the contractors, shutting down the payoffs to look the other way as people and drugs were trafficked across our southern border.

Follow the money. It's always about the money. The productive classes (the people who actually make things) have it. The Elitists (who generally produce nothing) want it and will use any means to get it.

[KindaMeh]

I feel like the average American, or likewise the typical person I might disagree with on either side of the aisle (but more likely the left, given my positions), is not completely beyond facts and reasonable discourse. While cancel culture is a poison that is eating away at the ability to conduct open discourse it isn't at the level of support yet where it can totally shut down dialogue.

I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that change doesn't happen overnight and changing opinions requires regular exposure to differing opinions and solid reasoning as to why one's current position doesn't fit well with reality. I think generally what would be needed for reconciliation is a lot of discomfort and suffering through conversations. By this I do not mean one sided lectures, though honesty is important. Basically everyone not notably left of center would need to speak up and represent themselves well, but especially those right of center. Especially when talking to the youth, because age demographics are not friendly to what I consider reasonable discourse within our nation's future.

Honestly, though, I'm thinking this is unlikely and in the long run Gen Z (which I guess I'm technically part of) will shit the bed big time. Partly because of this, we will become a racially discriminatory socialist hellhole.

But yeah, basically we would need well reasoned pushes into the hearts and minds of those who can be convinced and a societal shift back towards discourse and free speech where that would win out. But that takes putting up with a lot of bullshit and discomfort and I don't think it would happen.

[jhkim]

OK, Eirikrautha and jeff37923's accusations of lying got me a little ticked off, but on reflection, it's silly to be annoyed and I'd prefer things to not be confrontational. It is what it is.

Going back to the "reconciliation" in the topic of the thread - I don't think it's possible, but I do think some dialog and understanding is possible - even though we'll still be vigorously opposed on many topics. By being honest with each other, I think it's possible to have real dialog even if we don't agree. I'm open to criticism and disagreement to my positions - but they are my genuine positions and experiences.

Going back to MerrillWeathermay...

I speak specifically of hardcore ideological people, not simply those oblivious souls who are along for the ride. There have been plenty of black activists who were honestly out to improve the lot of their people and to achieve equality. I have known them and get along fine with them.

there are reasonable people, who may be wrong on some issues, and then there are extremists, who won't tolerate dissent or debate.

Thanks, MerrillWeathermay. That sounds more nuanced than what I previously read.

I agree that there are extremists who are opposed to dissent or debate. But I think that partisan politics can obscure what other people are truly like. Most people on either left or right have a bunch of misconceptions, but they still want things to be better for everyone.

[Alathon]

Hey, Alathon. Long time no see. Welcome back. This is one of those odd overlaps.

From previous conversations, I know that you had been opposed to ethnic mixing. That's what I would guess is meant by the "adulteration" from varied types of pussy. We disagree about this.

That said, I also oppose how the U.S. posts its armed forces all over the world and constantly intervenes in foreign conflicts. I would favor far less foreign military entanglements than the U.S. has historically had, though there are still some wars that I think were justified.

Thank you for your kind words.

Believe it or not, while racial adulteration of the U.S. armed forces is a serious problem, it is not the problem I speak of.  Most of that comes in the form of Hispanic recruits who do not, so far as I have heard, lack courage.  Sooner or later we will get what Emperor Valens got for Rome, but that's not our worst problem.

The 'pussy' I speak of comes in the form of political hires who are liabilities.  Careerist REMFs, perverts, and women.  The women are the worst of the lot, because at least the careerists and perverts are theoretically capable of fulfilling their obligations, whereas a population of women just plain can't.  Standards must be greatly lowered to allow them to participate and advance, which they now consider some sort of right, and weak males permit it.  Enemy soldiers will not lower their own standards to allow for pussyfeelz.

It is worth noting that most of the women in the U.S. armed forces come out of conservative communities.  This is a great way to turn them into harlots or corpses, but conservatives have not only allowed it but helped make it happen.  It's one more mountain of evidence that conservatives won't conserve shit.  Under the Republican umbrella, devout Christians and NRA-funding gun owners do most of the real work, while the "compassionate conservatives", moderates, and judeo-cons pour the wealth of our empire into obsolete war machines and feckless warmongering.

[Kiero]

Under the Republican umbrella, devout Christians and NRA-funding gun owners do most of the real work, while the "compassionate conservatives", moderates, and judeo-cons pour the wealth of our empire into obsolete war machines and feckless warmongering.

The warmongering isn't feckless, it's incidental. The whole point is to facilitate industrial scale money-laundering. Plenty of RINOs are getting rich off the whole scam, so don't give a fuck who dies in the process.

[3catcircus]

We just need to admit that we need a hard reset.

[Mistwell]

We just need to admit that we need a hard reset.

So who do you want hung, specifically?

[Eirikrautha]

We just need to admit that we need a hard reset.

So who do you want hung, specifically?

I'm already hung.  As to who needs to be hanged...

[Daztur]

I feel like the average American, or likewise the typical person I might disagree with on either side of the aisle (but more likely the left, given my positions), is not completely beyond facts and reasonable discourse. While cancel culture is a poison that is eating away at the ability to conduct open discourse it isn't at the level of support yet where it can totally shut down dialogue.

I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that change doesn't happen overnight and changing opinions requires regular exposure to differing opinions and solid reasoning as to why one's current position doesn't fit well with reality. I think generally what would be needed for reconciliation is a lot of discomfort and suffering through conversations. By this I do not mean one sided lectures, though honesty is important. Basically everyone not notably left of center would need to speak up and represent themselves well, but especially those right of center. Especially when talking to the youth, because age demographics are not friendly to what I consider reasonable discourse within our nation's future.

Honestly, though, I'm thinking this is unlikely and in the long run Gen Z (which I guess I'm technically part of) will shit the bed big time. Partly because of this, we will become a racially discriminatory socialist hellhole.

But yeah, basically we would need well reasoned pushes into the hearts and minds of those who can be convinced and a societal shift back towards discourse and free speech where that would win out. But that takes putting up with a lot of bullshit and discomfort and I don't think it would happen.

If you want to win the hearts and minds of people then perhaps it would be a good idea to draw a clean line between reasonable conservatism and the constant calls for mass bloodshed that have filled this thread.

Just a thought.

[KindaMeh]

I feel like the average American, or likewise the typical person I might disagree with on either side of the aisle (but more likely the left, given my positions), is not completely beyond facts and reasonable discourse. While cancel culture is a poison that is eating away at the ability to conduct open discourse it isn't at the level of support yet where it can totally shut down dialogue.

I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that change doesn't happen overnight and changing opinions requires regular exposure to differing opinions and solid reasoning as to why one's current position doesn't fit well with reality. I think generally what would be needed for reconciliation is a lot of discomfort and suffering through conversations. By this I do not mean one sided lectures, though honesty is important. Basically everyone not notably left of center would need to speak up and represent themselves well, but especially those right of center. Especially when talking to the youth, because age demographics are not friendly to what I consider reasonable discourse within our nation's future.

Honestly, though, I'm thinking this is unlikely and in the long run Gen Z (which I guess I'm technically part of) will shit the bed big time. Partly because of this, we will become a racially discriminatory socialist hellhole.

But yeah, basically we would need well reasoned pushes into the hearts and minds of those who can be convinced and a societal shift back towards discourse and free speech where that would win out. But that takes putting up with a lot of bullshit and discomfort and I don't think it would happen.

If you want to win the hearts and minds of people then perhaps it would be a good idea to draw a clean line between reasonable conservatism and the constant calls for mass bloodshed that have filled this thread.

Just a thought.

I personally disagree quite firmly with calls to violence against our fellow Americans, especially as the vast majority are not to my mind beyond reason in either direction. Likewise, I have made my own personal positions relatively clear while attempting to discuss and maintain good faith interactions with folks on multiple other threads.

I'm not a fan of genuine racism, actual discrimination and unequal treatment under the law and the like either, and believe most folks on this forum would agree with me on that. I feel like rational and measured discourse would indeed help temper society against government infringement on civil liberties and the like as well as promote various other goals and policies.

That said, this discussion of reconciliation is not about winning hearts and minds for all my specific political positions and their minutiae. Or delineating what I think a rational left, right, or center might ultimately look like or accomplish. Rather, I spoke what I felt was relevant to the thread and on topic.

For there to be reconciliation there needs first and foremost to be good faith discourse with an attempt towards solid reasoning and expression, not a focus on the promotion or delineation of specific dogma, however ostensibly valid or well meaning it may seem to me. I think the arguments of the left dominate a lot of the media and society, leading to ostracism and silencing of many dissenting opinions, especially within a younger generation that seems less tolerant and willing to engage in discussion with those of differing opinions. The right has its own versions of cancel culture, and UNLISTENING extremism, that are also an issue, but in the future seem unlikely to remain an any way dominant under the crushing weight of demographic shifts. I think everyone would need to discuss and open the pathways of communication soon if America is to reconcile with itself, because we are indeed becoming more and more isolated in our own polarizing bubbles and echo chambers.

(I also suspect it would need to happen prior to gen z and later just taking things completely woke. In a way that does not seem to accept critics or debaters as anything other than undesirables whose words must never be trusted or critically examined. But that might just be me doom and glooming.)

Hopefully this all makes rough sense and adds to the discussion here.

[Alathon]

The warmongering isn't feckless, it's incidental. The whole point is to facilitate industrial scale money-laundering. Plenty of RINOs are getting rich off the whole scam, so don't give a fuck who dies in the process.

I'll grant you that for our oligarchs it is not feckless, they stand to profit handsomely, and it worked out for them last time around.

Mainline conservatives generally don't believe that's what it's about though, they genuinely think we're the good guys who beat up the bad guys in WW2, and we can do it again in Ukraine, just like Grampa did!  They don't see pressuring EU members into vast donations of military hardware as a way to create demand for Raytheon and General Dynamics, both by depriving EU member states of much of their military stockpiles and by inciting hostility with Russia to stir up even more future sales.

[MerrillWeathermay]

The warmongering isn't feckless, it's incidental. The whole point is to facilitate industrial scale money-laundering. Plenty of RINOs are getting rich off the whole scam, so don't give a fuck who dies in the process.

I'll grant you that for our oligarchs it is not feckless, they stand to profit handsomely, and it worked out for them last time around.

Mainline conservatives generally don't believe that's what it's about though, they genuinely think we're the good guys who beat up the bad guys in WW2, and we can do it again in Ukraine, just like Grampa did!  They don't see pressuring EU members into vast donations of military hardware as a way to create demand for Raytheon and General Dynamics, both by depriving EU member states of much of their military stockpiles and by inciting hostility with Russia to stir up even more future sales.

true story.

The problem with American conservatism, especially of the neocon variety, is that it is globalist, corrupt, and ineffective. We can look at the narratives vs. the realities:

1. "We must support Ukraine and give Putin a lesson"! --No, we don't need to do that. While Putin is a total thug and a criminal, Zelensky is also corrupt and authoritarian. Getting into some proxy war between these two countries serves absolutely no national interest here in the US save for providing profits for the military industrial complex. NATO should not have expanded eastwards--we did that under Yeltsen, and even he was upset about it. This idea that Russia will send troops into the Baltic states or Poland if those countries don't get defense agreements from the US is nonsense. Putin can't even hold onto 20% of the Ukraine with his horseshi* army, and has lost 100k men in the process. The GDP of Texas is bigger tan that of Russia. We have to remember that it was the neocons who got us into Iraq and Afghanistan --both were total disasters--this needs to stop.

2. The GOP is always ready to give corporate welfare out (as are the Dems), but heaven forbid we get healthcare spending under control, or give Americans access to some kind of national health insurance. I am self-employed, and my health insurance premium is more than my mortgage and my property taxes combined. And I am on a bronze plan! That is just insane. There is a middle-way here

3. Both parties engage in reckless spending and have mortgage the future of our kids. Sure, the Dems are worse, but spending was insane under Bush and Trump

We have the new speaker of the house promising he will go to Taiwan just to start shit with China and potentially start a war. How does this serve US national interests? "We need the chips from Taiwan"! --no, we need to make those fu**ing chips here.

None of this is nationalist, or even populist. Globalist oligarchs and business tycoons run our government. They are supported by career politicians and overpaid civil servants

/end rant

[Alathon]

true story.

The problem with American conservatism, especially of the neocon variety, is that it is globalist, corrupt, and ineffective. We can look at the narratives vs. the realities:

1. "We must support Ukraine and give Putin a lesson"! --No, we don't need to do that. While Putin is a total thug and a criminal, Zelensky is also corrupt and authoritarian. Getting into some proxy war between these two countries serves absolutely no national interest here in the US save for providing profits for the military industrial complex. NATO should not have expanded eastwards--we did that under Yeltsen, and even he was upset about it. This idea that Russia will send troops into the Baltic states or Poland if those countries don't get defense agreements from the US is nonsense. Putin can't even hold onto 20% of the Ukraine with his horseshi* army, and has lost 100k men in the process. The GDP of Texas is bigger tan that of Russia. We have to remember that it was the neocons who got us into Iraq and Afghanistan --both were total disasters--this needs to stop.

2. The GOP is always ready to give corporate welfare out (as are the Dems), but heaven forbid we get healthcare spending under control, or give Americans access to some kind of national health insurance. I am self-employed, and my health insurance premium is more than my mortgage and my property taxes combined. And I am on a bronze plan! That is just insane. There is a middle-way here

3. Both parties engage in reckless spending and have mortgage the future of our kids. Sure, the Dems are worse, but spending was insane under Bush and Trump

We have the new speaker of the house promising he will go to Taiwan just to start shit with China and potentially start a war. How does this serve US national interests? "We need the chips from Taiwan"! --no, we need to make those fu**ing chips here.

None of this is nationalist, or even populist. Globalist oligarchs and business tycoons run our government. They are supported by career politicians and overpaid civil servants

/end rant

I suppose if I wanted to be black pilled about it, I could circle back to the OP and say "reconciliation is unnecessary because the uniparty is already working as intended".  Whether soyboy or grillboy, most Americans seem quite content to bitch about the other side and avoid cleaning their own house.  Standards of living have declined and will continue to decline, but a plurality of Americans think watching their sportsball of choice deserves a hundred times more hours each year than investigating their leadership.

Such sloth and indifference does open some interesting doors, though.  Serfs like this will submit to just about anyone.  It could be that all the talk about hangings is arising from a growing awareness that a small segment of the population, willing to fight, could dominate the rest and enforce their will.  After all, this is the status quo right now -- a small cadre of money-worshipping anti-Christian globalists dominating the West through propaganda media, sham courts, and gunmen with badges.

[jhkim]

The problem with American conservatism, especially of the neocon variety, is that it is globalist, corrupt, and ineffective.

1. ... We have to remember that it was the neocons who got us into Iraq and Afghanistan --both were total disasters--this needs to stop.

2. The GOP is always ready to give corporate welfare out (as are the Dems), but heaven forbid we get healthcare spending under control, or give Americans access to some kind of national health insurance. I am self-employed, and my health insurance premium is more than my mortgage and my property taxes combined. And I am on a bronze plan! That is just insane. There is a middle-way here

These seem like points of potential dialog - if not the "reconciliation" of the title.

I and many other liberals have been vocal about the problems of the military-industrial complex and the problems of U.S. constant military interventions - especially since Vietnam in the 1960s. We might disagree about some specifics, but we could agree on principles and generally reducing military spending. I've mentioned here before that while I've been opposed to over 90% of U.S. wars. Even though there are a handful of wars I supported, lets not let 90% agreement be the enemy of perfect alignment.

Also, national health insurance is something many Democrats have backed - but it has always been shot down, and any mention of reducing healthcare spending gets targeted as "death panels".

Believe it or not, while racial adulteration of the U.S. armed forces is a serious problem, it is not the problem I speak of.  Most of that comes in the form of Hispanic recruits who do not, so far as I have heard, lack courage.  Sooner or later we will get what Emperor Valens got for Rome, but that's not our worst problem.

The 'pussy' I speak of comes in the form of political hires who are liabilities.  Careerist REMFs, perverts, and women.  The women are the worst of the lot, because at least the careerists and perverts are theoretically capable of fulfilling their obligations, whereas a population of women just plain can't.  Standards must be greatly lowered to allow them to participate and advance, which they now consider some sort of right, and weak males permit it.  Enemy soldiers will not lower their own standards to allow for pussyfeelz.

It is worth noting that most of the women in the U.S. armed forces come out of conservative communities.  This is a great way to turn them into harlots or corpses, but conservatives have not only allowed it but helped make it happen.  It's one more mountain of evidence that conservatives won't conserve shit.  Under the Republican umbrella, devout Christians and NRA-funding gun owners do most of the real work, while the "compassionate conservatives", moderates, and judeo-cons pour the wealth of our empire into obsolete war machines and feckless warmongering.

By "judeo-cons" do you mean Jewish conservatives? I wasn't familiar with that term.

Given the role of religion in what you say, I'm curious what role you think religion plays in this? What denomination do you favor?

My parents both came from deeply religious Christian families, and I've found devout Christian conservatives easier to connect with than secular conservatives. Also, the most devout Christians that I know are mostly non-white - notably Latino Catholics, black Congregationalists, and Korean Presbyterians. Even among conservative white Christians, most of the ones I know considered all ethnicities to be united under God, and deliberately sought out united effort with other ethnicities.