Masculinity Doesn't Mean Acting Like an Animal
Why is it that, in this modern world, it seems that there are only two kinds of competing images of "masculinity" being argued for in the public sphere? The first is really a non-masculinity, the feminized man; the one who likes things women wants him to like, who would never do anything offensive to anyone, who is mainly interested in obeying his wife (or his mother), doesn't believe in competition, doesn't believe that being aggressive could ever possibly be good, agrees with what feminist academia calls "women's ways of knowing" (as in that you don't actually have to worry about logic or fact, but Feeling is paramount), and generally spends most of his time crawling around on his belly apologizing for having a penis.
The other, however, is the Barbarian. It is the man who likes loud things and fire and unintelligible grunting, and who likes beating up other men; he is unapologetically slobby and covered in grime, he treats women like they were objects, and hates responsibility of any kind. He thinks learning and knowledge are for pussies, and only wants to have fun with his "bros".
Each of the above is obviously a direct rejection of the other. But both are basically the same thing: Man as Child. In the one case, the good little boy who does what mommy says; the wiener-kid who has handed over his testicles forever to the women in his life. In the other case, it is the Naughty boy, the one who is free and lives in the wild, the feral child from Lord of the Flies.
And this is of course because the relativist/feminist influence in modern society has taught us that men and all they do is basically bad; people have somehow become convinced that somehow, it is man who is the destroyer, who needs to be contained to exist in society; and if he should escape, can hope for no better but to live like a feral savage.
All of that is bullshit.
Where is the model of true, adult Manhood? The model of Man as Civilizer?!
It was man who created civilization, who wrought order from chaos, far from the destroyer, if it was not for the positive masculine traits: discipline, responsibility, intellectual rigor, bravery, and a willingness to step the fuck up and do what must be done, along with the bravery to say that there are things that are TRUE and things that are FALSE, and that there are things that are RIGHT and things that are WRONG. It was man who took the competitive drive, and the aggressiveness of human nature and did not try to banish it or repress it but directed it, using the tools of the intellect, into constructing wonders. If it was not for these traits, we would all still be living, at best, in mud huts. We would lack virtually all of the comforts and all of the freedoms we have today. We really would be barely better than animals.
So I am a man. And I am neither interested in being a simpering unthinking manchild or a dirt-covered unthinking savage. I am a man who has mastered logic, grammar, and rhetoric. I prize Prudence, Temperance, Fortitude, Justice, Benevolence and Charity. I live out the principles of Brotherly Love, Relief, and Truth.
And I mourn the fact that our sick, decadent society is failing to tell people that this is what a man is.
And please note, I am not saying that women cannot have these traits; the world would be a better place if more of them did, in fact, rather than subscribing to the ideological elements in our society (post-modernism, marxism, feminism) that seek to destroy those very traits by selling the lies that you don't actually have to learn anything in order "to know", that irrationality is somehow a virtue and logic a vice, that emotionalism is healthy and stoicism is somehow a flaw; and that nothing is ever really true or false, right or wrong, except actually standing for something. That way lies collapse.
RPGPundit
(february 25, 2010)
Quote from: RPGPundit;442432I am a man who has mastered ... rhetoric.
RPGPundit
(february 25, 2010)
I agree 100% with this assessment of the situation.
Have you ever read Max Nordau's Degeneration?
Conversely, posts like this one are precisely what I like about Pundit. *shrug*
Quote from: VectorSigma;443886Conversely, posts like this one are precisely what I like about Pundit. *shrug*
Glad you do.
RPGPundit
I agree that there is a problem with the image of masculinity. I'm curious about the way it is blamed on feminism.
Pundit - Do you actually think that non-feminists or anti-feminists present a better image of masculinity?
From my point of view, I'd agree that there's a problem with images of masculinity - but the anti-feminist images of men are no better than the feminist pictures. Basically, after the advent of feminism, masculinity had to redefine itself - and we failed. I don't think feminism is particularly to blame, but I don't think it helped. There have been some stabs at creating more positive masculinity, like Robert Bly's intentional "mytho-poetic" masculinity. I don't think they've gotten very far, though.
In pop culture, I think of Sam & Frodo from Lord of the Rings or Sam & Dean from Supernatural as attempts to define a more positive masculinity.
Quote from: jhkim;444102I agree that there is a problem with the image of masculinity. I'm curious about the way it is blamed on feminism.
Pundit - Do you actually think that non-feminists or anti-feminists present a better image of masculinity?
From my point of view, I'd agree that there's a problem with images of masculinity - but the anti-feminist images of men are no better than the feminist pictures. Basically, after the advent of feminism, masculinity had to redefine itself - and we failed. I don't think feminism is particularly to blame, but I don't think it helped. There have been some stabs at creating more positive masculinity, like Robert Bly's intentional "mytho-poetic" masculinity. I don't think they've gotten very far, though.
In pop culture, I think of Sam & Frodo from Lord of the Rings or Sam & Dean from Supernatural as attempts to define a more positive masculinity.
Interestingly, the most fruitful and interesting books on the problem Pundit is talking about are coming from the field of "masculinity studies," which is rooted in the feminist theory Pundy decries.
Quote from: RPGPundit;442432And I mourn the fact that our sick, decadent society is failing to tell people that this is what a man is.
RPGPundit
(february 25, 2010)
Something I've been wondering about -- do people encounter radical, philosophical feminism in real life, like... ever?
I see it on message boards and I live in a blue state (New York), and from what I can see traditional masculinity is the uncontested standard to the point where it's utterly unremarkable.
The only place I've *ever* encountered feminism outside of the internet or university was a brief (several weeks) experience with a group that worked with people convicted of domestic violence (the feminist group taught the classes the wife-beaters had to take).
To be sure, we have diversity stuff at work and anyone acting in an overtly sexist manner would get (rightly) fired in a heartbeat, I haven't seen anything that addresses the nature of masculinity.
I was dating in the first half of the decade and the women I met across the spectrum of age and professionalism were interested in traditional gender roles (man as primary provider, man with a good deal of agency in the relationship, etc.)
Where does this stuff come up aside from the Internet? Where/how is society telling people stuff?
To be clear: I'm not exactly doubting this is an issue, just saying I don't seem to see it anywhere in my every-day existence. When I *did* run into a real-life extreme feminist perspective of men, I found it quite offensive and more or less a deal-breaker, so it's not like I'm just blind to the message.
Cheers,
-E.
Gender aside, Sam and Frodo do not strike me as particularly positive role models. They do too much whining.
Quote from: -E.;444118Something I've been wondering about -- do people encounter radical, philosophical feminism in real life, like... ever?
I work at a university, so I encounter feminism a lot. And yet it is *rarely* the boogieman feminism that Pundit mentions in his polemic. Sure, there are extreme viewpoints that make specious claims, but they are far from the mainstream of feminist thought.
Also, Pundit, I'm not sure what you meant by "women's ways of knowing." That isn't generally regarded as a feminist privileging of feeling over reason; rather, it most often refers to a landmark study of cognitive development in women undertaken by Belenky, Clinchy, Goldberger, and Tarule (1986). Do you have a reference or an example for the way you are using the phrase?
Quote from: misterguignol;444122I work at a university, so I encounter feminism a lot. And yet it is *rarely* the boogieman feminism that Pundit mentions in his polemic. Sure, there are extreme viewpoints that make specious claims, but they are far from the mainstream of feminist thought.
Also, Pundit, I'm not sure what you meant by "women's ways of knowing." That isn't generally regarded as a feminist privileging of feeling over reason; rather, it most often refers to a landmark study of cognitive development in women undertaken by Belenky, Clinchy, Goldberger, and Tarule (1986). Do you have a reference or an example for the way you are using the phrase?
I'd expect to see more of it at university -- and I'd expect the face-to-face version to be somewhat less extreme and uncompromising than what I see on the Internet.
That said, my one real-life / non-university encounter with feminism in action was pretty extreme in it's negative view of men (basically that all men are abusers -- a position that, while not *literal* was not abstracted to the point where it was making an uncontroversial point).
I dunno if they were mainstream or not, but they were associated with the United Way and leveraged by the court system. They may have been philosophical radicals, but they were definitely part of the mainstream culture.
Cheers,
-E.
Quote from: -E.;444128I'd expect to see more of it at university -- and I'd expect the face-to-face version to be somewhat less extreme and uncompromising than what I see on the Internet.
That said, my one real-life / non-university encounter with feminism in action was pretty extreme in it's negative view of men (basically that all men are abusers -- a position that, while not *literal* was not abstracted to the point where it was making an uncontroversial point).
I dunno if they were mainstream or not, but they were associated with the United Way and leveraged by the court system. They may have been philosophical radicals, but they were definitely part of the mainstream culture.
Cheers,
-E.
There are definitely more extreme positions out there, but they are a minority and don't usually have the support of more even-handed feminists anyway. If anything, the feminist movement was much more strident during the second wave of feminism in the 1970s.
Quote from: misterguignol;443877Have you ever read Max Nordau's Degeneration?
Nope. Give us a summary.
Quote from: jhkim;444102I agree that there is a problem with the image of masculinity.
I don't.
There are so many images and so many voices in todays content rich culture that everybody can grab whatever image of masculinity / femininity they like and easily have plenty of reinforcement for whatever image they chose.
Quote from: -E.;444118Something I've been wondering about -- do people encounter radical, philosophical feminism in real life, like... ever?
A few confused chicks in college and some angry hags in school districts.
Quote from: Spinachcat;444138Nope. Give us a summary.
Nordau's thesis is much the same as Pundit's: the West has become a decadent, degenerate culture wherein men alternately suffer from being over-civilized and "feminine" (Nordau would say "hysteric") or from being brutish and un-evolved.
Of course, Nordau beat Pundit to the punch since he was writing in the 1890s.
Which also means that this complaint is oft-rehearsed and probably much ado about nothing.
Quote from: misterguignol;444122I work at a university, so I encounter feminism a lot. And yet it is *rarely* the boogieman feminism that Pundit mentions in his polemic. Sure, there are extreme viewpoints that make specious claims, but they are far from the mainstream of feminist thought.
Also, Pundit, I'm not sure what you meant by "women's ways of knowing." That isn't generally regarded as a feminist privileging of feeling over reason; rather, it most often refers to a landmark study of cognitive development in women undertaken by Belenky, Clinchy, Goldberger, and Tarule (1986). Do you have a reference or an example for the way you are using the phrase?
Whenever I've heard it referred to in actual use, it has been used to mean the way that people (not exclusively women) in this day and age can "know" things through means other than logical reasoning. So that you can "know" with your heart or your sense of compassion or social justice or whatever, and that these "truths" even if technically physically incorrect in every real sense, should be cleaved to because they represent some kind of ideal.
Example: "it doesn't matter that you've collected a bunch of statistics 'proving' that there's no way 15 million witches were burned at the stake during the 'burning times'; the number is a reflection of the powerful feeling of violence committed by the patriarchy against wise women who threatened their hierarchy, and therefore should be 'taken as' truth".
Ironically, another group that makes a lot of use of this kind of thing is a certain segment of the ultra-conservative movement.
RPGPundit
Quote from: -E.;444118Something I've been wondering about -- do people encounter radical, philosophical feminism in real life, like... ever?
YES unfortunately.
Also the trickle-down side effects of it in the way some individual women talk and act.
There is a woman on a local con committee that quite often makes minor snide 'feminist' comments ...then often whines about being lonely and wanting a guy to be with.
(I'm not joking, she is often like a cliche and doesn't realize it)- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar;444169YES unfortunately.
Also the trickle-down side effects of it in the way some individual women talk and act.
There is a woman on a local con committee that quite often makes minor snide 'feminist' comments ...then often whines about being lonely and wanting a guy to be with. (I'm not joking, she is often like a cliche and doesn't realize it)
- Ed C.
I can see that. As a form of general unpleasantness, making anti-whoever (men, in this case) remarks would count...
But that's not a source of "messages about" one's masculinity that I'd think anyone would find meaningful -- it's very much in the category of, "okay... this person has issues" rather than, "influence on society."
I'd guess the rad-fem folks /want/ to have influence on society and to be able to send messages to men that define masculinity the way the OP lays out... I'm just wondering where those messages show up outside of the Internet.
Cheers,
-E.
Sounds a little like Dave Sim.
You mean the Dave Sim who actually declared that the feminine principle of the universe was a great sucking black hole doing its best to destroy the masculine creative force of the Universe?
Yeah that Dave Sim. I see the same sort of hysteria about a feminist agenda out to destroy the male light of reason and civilization. Pundit's is not as over-stated than Sim's, but it's there.
Quote from: two_fishes;444595Yeah that Dave Sim. I see the same sort of hysteria about a feminist agenda out to destroy the male light of reason and civilization. Pundit's is not as over-stated than Sim's, but it's there.
Yep.
It comes up every once in a while around here. With Pundit, civilization = iPod, and The West = The Best. For a man who prides himself on his 'mastery of logic', one might think there would be a concomitant ability to see some of the details of those positions, rather than the often too broad current outcome through the lens of how much easier these things make their own life.
Quote from: -E.;444118Something I've been wondering about -- do people encounter radical, philosophical feminism in real life, like... ever?
-E.
Yes. It was while I was in college in Seattle in 1995, I ran into several Andrea Dworkin spouting nutjobs. I don't think their antics really helped any efforts to bring about equal treatment for women. It just looked like an exercise for venting anger.
I made the mistake of opening a door for one of them and got yelled at for doing so. It was a case of politeness wasted.
This reminds me of a segment I just heard on NPR the other day where some feminist author was complaining about how the depiction of women on tv shows geared towards youths. She really hated the original 90210 for showing airheaded women (I guess she missed the dumb as a box of rocks collection of male beefcake also featured on the show) and even thought tv shows like Buffy or Xena were still an issue because although the female protagonist was protrayed as strong and heroic, they were still attractive.
So basically, she wanted more shows with smart, ugly chicks being heroic, I guess. I wonder if she watches that new Harry's Law show with Kathy Bates? Or would she not be ugly enough? The GF and I had a few laughs over the stupidity of the author's sort of feminism.
Modern feminisim was developed in order to give unattractive (physically and/or emotionally) women access to the mainstream of society.
Quote from: jeff37923;444630Yes. It was while I was in college in Seattle in 1995, I ran into several Andrea Dworkin spouting nutjobs. I don't think their antics really helped any efforts to bring about equal treatment for women. It just looked like an exercise for venting anger.
I made the mistake of opening a door for one of them and got yelled at for doing so. It was a case of politeness wasted.
A walking, breathing stereotype -- but I don't count college as "real life."
I think the Internet (to a great degree) and college (to a lesser, but still extant degree) tolerate and re-enforce extreme positions like radical feminism in a way most forums do not.
I'd think that once those people graduated, they'd find their environment less supportive of that kind of behavior and self-correct.
Cheers,
-E.
Two things kept going through my mind as I read the Pundit's original post; questions actually, I suppose.
The first was, does he not realize that the two stereotypes he rails against are comic conventions, not serious presentations of masculinity? The second was, what the hell do genitals have to do with holding dear such important principles? He attempts to address the second question, briefly, by saying he wishes women weren't such useless parasites (I may be paraphrasing a bit ;) ) but, nonetheless, his view of women seems as distorted as the view he suggests modern society has of men.
I think it is important to recognize that sitcoms and romantic comedies are not the places to look for serious understanding of societal values.
Quote from: Werekoala;444705Modern feminisim was developed in order to give unattractive (physically and/or emotionally) women access to the mainstream of society.
Same could be stated that RPG's were developed in order to give unattractive (physically and/or socially inept) men less access to the mainstreams of society.
Quote from: Venosha;444841Same could be stated that RPG's were developed in order to give unattractive (physically and/or socially inept) men less access to the mainstreams of society.
Except most people would view that as a good thing, as opposed to feminisim. :)
Please note, I'm mostly kidding here.
Ignoring the actual polemics of Dworkin herself and her fellow travelers, most feminists do not agree with her theses. BUT, there is nonetheless an atavistic joy many of them feel when hearing that sort of extreme rhetoric put forward forcefully simply because it is so extreme and in your face. I think most of us have had this experience when someone with similar but more extreme views than our own roars out their convictions directly into the face of the opposition. (Perhaps Pundit himself serves as such a catharsis . . .).
Quote from: -E.;444118Something I've been wondering about -- do people encounter radical, philosophical feminism in real life, like... ever?
Yes, and it bears no resemblance whatsoever to the pinata pseudo-intellectual man-children drag out and call "radical feminism" to justify their misogyny.
Quote from: Professort Zoot;444835The first was, does he not realize that the two stereotypes he rails against are comic conventions, not serious presentations of masculinity?
...
I think it is important to recognize that sitcoms and romantic comedies are not the places to look for serious understanding of societal values.
I think that sitcoms do reflect the larger culture, and affect it as well.
Completely out of the context of sitcoms, if I tell a stranger that a professor I work with is very "manly" or very "masculine" - then they get a certain picture of what I mean. And that picture tends to be more like the sitcom view than any alternative.
Quote from: jhkim;444939Completely out of the context of sitcoms, if I tell a stranger that a professor I work with is very "manly" or very "masculine" - then they get a certain picture of what I mean. And that picture tends to be more like the sitcom view than any alternative.
A thoughtless, ineffectual, bumbling doofus?
Quote from: -E.;444826I think the Internet (to a great degree) and college (to a lesser, but still extant degree) tolerate and re-enforce extreme positions like radical feminism in a way most forums do not.
I'd think that once those people graduated, they'd find their environment less supportive of that kind of behavior and self-correct.
Cheers,
-E.
Right, but I think they find it less tolerated because it is needed. I live in the asshole of Ohio, pretty close to Koltar, where racism and sexism is a way of life. I'd like to see more and stronger feminism, along with better civil rights activism.
Quote from: Cranewings;444944Right, but I think they find it less tolerated because it is needed. I live in the asshole of Ohio, pretty close to Koltar, where racism and sexism is a way of life. I'd like to see more and stronger feminism, along with better civil rights activism.
So... is Koltar living in Ohio's taint, or perhaps deep within its rectum? Perhaps I should be more understanding.
Quote from: Aos;444945So... is Koltar living in Ohio's taint, or perhaps deep within its rectum? Perhaps I should be more understanding.
It depends on who you ask. People here in Dayton think Cincinnati is the asshole of Ohio. People in Cincinnati think Dayton is the Asshole.
- People from real cities don't think either place is very good.
Actually, I've been in Dayton, at the time it struck me a smaller, dirtier version of Buffalo.
Quote from: Aos;444948Actually, I've been in Dayton, at the time it struck me a smaller, dirtier version of Buffalo.
I like to be positive about living here (as I actually like the town) and think of it as a more convenient, cleaner version of Pittsburgh.
You should go post on my fantasy supers thread.
Quote from: Cranewings;444950I like to be positive about living here (as I actually like the town) and think of it as a more convenient, cleaner version of Pittsburgh.
You should go post on my fantasy supers thread.
Sorry, man, I didn't mean to dis your town.
Quote from: Aos;444955Sorry, man, I didn't mean to dis your town.
lol, no worries. I just like making fun of Pittsburgh.
Quote from: Cranewings;444947It depends on who you ask. People here in Dayton think Cincinnati is the asshole of Ohio. People in Cincinnati think Dayton is the Asshole.
I've been living in Dayton for a few months now. Cincinnati seems nicer to me, but all my friends there insist it is terrible.
Are there any good game stores around here?
Quote from: Aporon;444979I've been living in Dayton for a few months now. Cincinnati seems nicer to me, but all my friends there insist it is terrible.
Are there any good game stores around here?
Yeah man, we got a lot of Game Stores, supported by local Airforce nerds:
I get most of my books and D&D minis from here: http://bellbcomic.com/
I try to support this store by occasionally buying a book and getting my board games like Settlers of Catan. They are massively successful and have BIG tournaments for miniatures on the weekends: http://www.krystalkeep.com/
If you don't mind the drive to Fairborn, this is the biggest store. I've never been a big fan of it personally, but they have a great used section and a huge second store across the street for action figures and comics: http://www.bookeryfantasy.com/
gl
Koltar works at a game store in Cinci... I keep meaning to go down there and check it out. Probably will this weekend or next week while I'm on break.
There is also a total rping game store in cinci - http://www.yottaquest.com/
They sell a lot of story game swinery and forge crap, but they also have the whole Paladium line, tons of old school, even Tunnels and Trolls. They host a ton of tournaments. I bet they even have Pathfinder society.
Quote from: Cranewings;444988Koltar works at a game store in Cinci... I keep meaning to go down there and check it out. Probably will this weekend or next week while I'm on break.
There is also a total rping game store in cinci - http://www.yottaquest.com/
They sell a lot of story game swinery and forge crap, but they also have the whole Paladium line, tons of old school, even Tunnels and Trolls. They host a ton of tournaments. I bet they even have Pathfinder society.
Yottaquest is barely 5 to 10 minutes driving time from the store I work at.
They are our closest competition - but also our friends in many ways and good people. If we are missing a game or an item I often call Yottaquest to see if they have it and send a browser over to them - and they do likewise.
I'd say two-thirds of our inventory overlaps what they have and vice-versa.
I've run RPG sessions at their game tables and the two stores pretty share about half of our regulars.
As for a 'Dayton vs. Cincinnati' rivalry ? - I'm
NOT into that silliness. There is a local Sci-Fi convention called
MILLENNICON every year. I'm a member of the con committe , around half of the con-com members live and work in the Dayton area - sop I think Dayton area gamers, geeks, and nerds as my alliers, buddies or potential friends.
This year our Guest of Honor is the author Robert J. Sawyer - he wrote the book FLASH FORWARD, which then got turned into an ABC TV series last year. We've also got that filker guy Tom Smith.
Dayton posters on here - send me a PM and we can meet up at my store sometime or at MILLENNICON. When I'm on 'here'/this foruum I don't try to promote the store I try to let my hair down
(literally - I got a ponytail) and relax a tad.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Cranewings;444944I'd like to see more and stronger feminism, along with better civil rights activism.
Down here in Cincinnati that would be the parts of town known as : Clifton, Corryville, Clifton Heights, and Northside.
Probably because those are the neighborhoods closest to the University.
Somebody who just got out of the Navy grumbled abouyt Clifton: "They need a dress code in this part of town!"
I answered: "They already have one, the women wear dresses and sometimes the men do too. "
Thats also the part of town where there are midnight showing of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show".
I used to know where
ALL the alternative types, gays, lesbians, pagans, wiccans, bi-sexuals, socialist wannabees and former hippies used to hang out and party. Problem is I'm a tad older now - I still got contacts or friends in those communities tho.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Venosha;444841Same could be stated that RPG's were developed in order to give unattractive (physically and/or socially inept) men less access to the mainstreams of society.
Well yeah, except that it isn't.
Of course, what Werekoala said about feminism isn't true either.
Feminism began as a laudable and eminently moral movement and was quite sensible until it got subverted first by marxism and then by post-modernism to be used as a tool to tear down the values of western civilization; never mind that feminism was originally about pushing those same values forward toward their natural evolution (the rights and liberties of all human beings). In that classical sense, I'm as feminist as they come.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Cranewings;444982Yeah man, we got a lot of Game Stores, supported by local Airforce nerds:
I get most of my books and D&D minis from here: http://bellbcomic.com/
I try to support this store by occasionally buying a book and getting my board games like Settlers of Catan. They are massively successful and have BIG tournaments for miniatures on the weekends: http://www.krystalkeep.com/
If you don't mind the drive to Fairborn, this is the biggest store. I've never been a big fan of it personally, but they have a great used section and a huge second store across the street for action figures and comics: http://www.bookeryfantasy.com/
gl
Cool, thank you!
Quote from: Aporon;445119Cool, thank you!
No problem.