Can Disney use their Star Wars strategy for Marvel?
http://www.joblo.com/movie-news/marvel-has-plans-to-introduce-openly-lgbtqa-to-the-mcu-264-02
Considering the half-failure of Solo and the subsequent criticism of Kathleen Kennedy's leadership, this is a pretty bold move. And a pretty risky one too, IMO. Time will tell, I guess.
V.
Bwah?....Deadpool 2 already happened.
The gay couple was even in the trailers.
The problem is the Chinese market.
Because of that, they do shitty stuff like saying a character is gay, but not referencing it in the movie.
Don't they already have them?
Quote from: VacuumJockey;1046018Can Disney use their Star Wars strategy for Marvel?
http://www.joblo.com/movie-news/marvel-has-plans-to-introduce-openly-lgbtqa-to-the-mcu-264-02
Considering the half-failure of Solo and the subsequent criticism of Kathleen Kennedy's leadership, this is a pretty bold move. And a pretty risky one too, IMO. Time will tell, I guess.
V.
As a father of a teen who sees herself as gay, I think this is a good move as long as they're NEW characters and NOT fuck with already established characters that are canon.
they tried that in the comics and it pissed a lot of people off.
Not because they were gay or whatever, but because they changed the already established background of a well-known character.
Also, it doesn't have to be sexual orientation they fucked with and failed.
-They changed Thor to being female and that blew up in their faces.
-They changed Capt. America's backstory to where he was a HYDRA sleeper agent THE WHOLE TIME. Really? This is CAPTAIN AMERICA.
No wonder sales are dwindling. It's the stupid shit like this that SJWs push for without thinking of the consequences.
But the MCU has been for the most part done an excellent job, but they need to be careful. Many countries where these movies are marketed still view homosexuality as taboo, specifically predominant Muslim ones. Don't be surprised if there is a gay character and it's shown in the film, it's filmed in a way to where is can be easily edited out to be marketed and shown in those countries.
Deadpool already did it. I think pushing to have it happen is a whole lot of attempting to cater to a very small population of fans/potential fans. Solo was not a half failure, it was a complete disaster financially.
I do not think the problem is the chinese market. The problem is hardline fans who need a real reason, well developed character, or something other than pushing a forced checking of a box. I have no issue with a gay character. It would be statistically be tough to justify, but once you have people flying and punching holes in concrete, population statistics matter not so much, and telling a good story does.
Quote from: oggsmash;1046210I have no issue with a gay character. It would be statistically be tough to justify
A lesbian female soldier type would hardly be an anomaly. I always thought banning lesbians from the military was ridiculous; it would have made much more sense to ban straight women.
Quote from: S'mon;1046226A lesbian female soldier type would hardly be an anomaly. I always thought banning lesbians from the military was ridiculous; it would have made much more sense to ban straight women.
I was referring to the statistical fact that a person with superpowers is a rare anomaly. The population of gay people is what, around 3 percent? so you have two statistical rarities that have to come together, since most superheros are not super powered by choice in as much by happen stance. But sure lesbian softball players or soldiers are not rare at all, but that is a choice of activity or profession, superhero seems less chosen in most circumstances from lore. But as I already said, once you have people flying, I do not need a statistical justification. Just have a good story and try not to get SJW talking points as your main focus and it can work out.
Quote from: Frey;1046203The problem is the Chinese market.
Because of that, they do shitty stuff like saying a character is gay, but not referencing it in the movie.
he gay pls clap
Well if they go this route - it'll be as successful as their comicbook attempts. They'll essentially flush their golden goose down the toilet.
It's not even the fact that they intend on inserting LGBT characters into the MCU that's the issue. It's how they execute doing it. The way they do all this shit in the comics is asinine and idiotic because they can't separate their political views from the stereotypes of how they portray their ideology.
So it's all mixed up into this slurry of shit that really say more about the creators in their portrayal of their ideas. Which arguably speaks volumes.
Case in point:
Thor is turned into a woman - But it was so poorly conceived because of the fact they *had* to shoe-horn Jane Foster into the role, under the pretense that Thor was now unworthy (which how they went about that was equally stupid) they never considered from a character-perspective of what *made* Jane Foster over everyone else in the Marvel Universe worthy enough of Mjolnir? Oh she had a vagina and cancer so let's pluck those heartstrings and wrap this whole concept around that. And *even then* - it could have worked, but she was so lacking in background other than just being "Thor's old girlfriend that's now dying" that they went ahead and made Mjolnir a character/pet in order to be her foil to build her up because ultimately she was a cardboard-cut out advertisement for "Hey Diversity!"
Captain America is a Nazi - Bad idea. Really bad idea. Nevermind the premise is based on using the Cosmic Cube to make everyone believe that this was true. Then double-down on it with some Alternate-reality hijinks. The premise is obviously designed from Nick Spencer's animus about his views on modern politics, on its face. The execution is so one-note and in bad taste, it shows 1) he doesn't understand Captain America 2) He willfully decides to not consider the ramifications of making Captain America in this manner an actual Hydra/Nazi agent 3) His ideology overrides any and all attempts at crafting a good story. It serves to only shit on Captain America as a symbol for the America that he believes is shitty. Imagine bringing Chris Evans portrayal of Cap - which has PROVEN to be far more dynamic and honest to the character (thanks Ed Brubaker!) to this position and expect it to make money? LOL good luck with that?
Iceman is REALLY Gay! - Nevermind 40+ years of Iceman being a bit of a player. Nope. We're going to have Jean Grey telepathically push Iceman into "realizing" the whole time he's really gay. Not just gay - but a caricature of the "fabulously gay" stereotype... because. Nevermind the horrifying implications of actual thought-control, gross manipulation, and the shitting on the very foundational principle of Professor X that trained Jean to never use her powers like this on moral grounds (at least in the mainline universe). Fuck all that. We're mind-fucking people. It's okay if you make them gay. Horribly written character. Horrible stupid stories.
She-Hulk - The Internet Bullyhunter - Nevermind that She-Hulk has dealt with a lot of heavy-duty villains, been on every Marvel team as a valued member for decades. Was an actual strong female character that was totally self-reliant (nevermind the literal fact she was strong). No... rather than use her as a shining example of what ought to be a strong female lead... they reduce her to hunting down bullies on the internet. I shit you not. Because nothing says being super-heroic than taking on the violence of words in Social Media.
Ironheart - Black female teen racist sociopath-millennial Ironman - She's a "hero" because she's black and steals technology to make herself a power-suit. She does some minor good deed with it - then Tony Stark proclaims her as his heir-apparent out of nowhere and walks into the big-leagues, because *she's awesome!* No other criteria needed! She's selfish, a little vindictive and said to be a super-genius but you don't really see anything genius about how she solves any problems other than blast it to shreds. Like most modern female Marvel characters, she cruises through most challenges without much problem and is completely un-self aware of who she is why she does what she does. Horribly horribly written character with zero development outside "she's a girl", "she's a poc" and "she's better than Tony Stark at everything Tony Stark does" so accept her!
Korean Hulk aka Man-baby Hulkywulky - Amadeus Cho has always been, to me, a caricature. The cool super-genius(! a trope beaten to death by writers that clearly are not smart in their own right - but use this trope as an internal MacGuffin to unpaint themselves out of corners - which they do because they themselves are stupid) asian dude that is smarter than you, dear reader. So he is so smart he figures out out to become the Hulk in appearance only. While they usher the real-Hulk off the stage, they give us this new more caring, more sensitive Hulk... the Totally Awesome Hulk. A hulk that is a super-genius but rather than thinks his way out of problems that normally would be solvable by a SUPER-GENIUS... he just punches his way out like a meathead, but... with sociopathic sensitivity (that means he cries when he shouldn't, gloats when there are bodies falling from the skies). They emasculate Cho, who was originally a guy that was always trying to hit on girls - borderline beta-creepy style, then they just stopped altogether once Greg Pak went full SJW. Now he's sociopathic, big baby-hulk. Inadvertantly dumb. Weak willed. Easily manipulated. And despite having gamma-irradiated cells - has zero testosterone despite trying to act like a Bro. If you wrote him as a female - he'd be no different than modern She-Hulk.
Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) aka Militant Space Feminist - TOTALLY de-feminized. Asshole. Authoritarian. She used to be the sexy, military badass turned super-hero, now she's the very unfeminine, asshole that loves to threaten people with violence unless you do things her way. She's a pushy feminist asshole and almost always wrong. She's actually a villain - but the writers don't seem to realize it. She looks and acts like a lot of internet feminists. So power-projection of ideology is intact, including the inevitable failure of it. But they gloss it all over.
America Chavez - Jesus... where to even start? I'll quote D&C on this "If you hired a KKK member to come with the worst stereotype for a Venezuelan lesbian, he would be leagues behind the cast behind America Chavez." She literally fights the evil *white energy* with *brown energy*. Oh I honestly can't even do this. She's every bad SJW stereotype rolled into one, pumped via adamantium studded vibranium dildo full of gamma-irradiated steroids, shot out of a rail-gun into orbit to go full supernova. multiplied by ten orders of magnitude beyond Pi. She's actually so bad, she's hilarious to read... if it weren't supposed to be serious. Which then makes it scary.
Kate Bishop - Hawkeye with vagina - That's it. She's the new Hawkeye, a female that comes out of nowhere and is better than Hawkeye at what Hawkeye does, just because. + vagina. And she takes his name.
Storm - Female Malcolm X - Despite the fact she's African, and has been an X-man for decades, she's now suddenly a black activist that hates what white-people do to blacks in America. Yeah fuck all the mutant stuff.
I could go on... this is the tip of the iceberg. These characters would be villains in the normal context of Marvel. And I will laugh my ass off (but cry a little on the inside) if they try to bring this shitshow to the MCU.
Marvel used to sell 650k per issue on AVERAGE during Jim Shooter's era - where he maintained a really strong editorial hand on the content of Marvel's characters. His top books sold in the millions PER MONTH. The average Marvel comic today sells ~20k, most are below that and a few are above. There is a reason they're dying...
Quote from: tenbones;1046263Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) aka Militant Space Feminist - TOTALLY de-feminized. Asshole. Authoritarian. She used to be the sexy, military badass turned super-hero, now she's the very unfeminine, asshole that loves to threaten people with violence unless you do things her way. She's a pushy feminist asshole and almost always wrong. She's actually a villain - but the writers don't seem to realize it. She looks and acts like a lot of internet feminists. So power-projection of ideology is intact, including the inevitable failure of it. But they gloss it all over.
I have a pet theory that the feminist idea of a strong woman is the misunderstanding of masculinity, and the slotting of a woman into that perceived role.
IE if a woman was a man, she'd be a total dickhead because men are fundamentally dickheads.
Quote from: tenbones;10462631) he doesn't understand Captain America
I'm a hardcore Cap fanboy, and this is the biggest understatement of the century. Might as well just have Superman willingly join up with Darkseid to subjugate the human race...it's literally that level of retardation. Oh wait, that almost happened, but Superman's inherent personality overtook Darkseid's brainwashing. Not so for Cap! Fucking stuuuuuuuuupid.
QuoteStorm - Female Malcolm X - Despite the fact she's African, and has been an X-man for decades, she's now suddenly a black activist that hates what white-people do to blacks in America. Yeah fuck all the mutant stuff.
This crap actually undermines the past 40+ years of comics, with the mutants standing in the place of real-world minorities. Where before we read comics and used our brains to draw parallels between mutants and minorities, might as well just throw all that shit out the window and instead get clobbered over the head with non-subtle bullshit. I seriously wonder if the current writers have any idea to tell an actual story; seems like all they can do is just spout political rhetoric.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1046266I have a pet theory that the feminist idea of a strong woman is the misunderstanding of masculinity, and the slotting of a woman into that perceived role.
IE if a woman was a man, she'd be a total dickhead because men are fundamentally dickheads.
It's the projection of their inner-view. They *are* the very thing they claim they hate. Its that externalization that fuels their crazy revenge fantasies. This is also why as drinkers of Marxist Kool-aid (whether they realize it or not) - they view everything as a power-struggle. It's why super-heroes are power-fantasies for young boys.
But what these idiots don't realize, and what made Marvel and to an extent DC so popular with the genre is that adult, mostly male, writers injected a postulate of making them virtuous and exploring those mythical concepts within the context of that reality - that yes, Superman is that powerful, that's why he doesn't go around murdering bad guys, that is why he's objectively good.
There is a tension in that morality of power vs. justice. SJW's do not have a fucking clue about that - because they're so infantile in how they see "justice" they don't even see it's about revenge. They have no nuance.
I've said this before - you CAN do Social Justice as a real theme in comics. It's been done for DECADES and done with real moral consideration. I present to you the ultimate example: Magneto.
He's a super-minority within a minority (a Jewish mutant) - actually lived through Auschwitz and persecuted by the actual Nazis. He's been on the receiving end of a genocidal pogrom. Then he discovers his powers and is faced with the awful understanding of what drives men's fears. He creates his own brand of Identity Politics - he sees Mutants as a separate racial stock than homo sapiens - homo superior. And he falls to the lowest common denominator, that ultimately these two races will clash out of fear of one another. Initially he fights to bring down the system - and realizes the tide of numbers is against him (after getting his ass handed to him repeatedly). Then he goes after claiming his own land for his own kind (the S. African Apartheid analog Genosha) which he begins like SJW's do - to enact the very things he himself has raged against: persecuting the non-mutants, ultimately genocide. It's been pretty much rinse/repeat ever since.
The issue here is the whole notion of Social Justice as practiced is the path that ideologue villains use to justify their ideas. SJW writers don't seem to see this, much like SJ villains don't. They believe they're heroes for their tiny constituents. They commit and create the very things they say they're against.
And Magneto *is* an interesting character. He's just a villain. Not a hero.
Looking at the OP title, I don't think that it would be a problem to introduce LGBT characters into the MCU. The problem is that they are changing the established continuity of the characters into social justice parodies - that is what the customers do not like. I doubt that a significant segment of the MCU customer gives a shit if LGBT characters exist.
Quote from: jeff37923;1046285Looking at the OP title, I don't think that it would be a problem to introduce LGBT characters into the MCU. The problem is that they are changing the established continuity of the characters into social justice parodies - that is what the customers do not like. I doubt that a significant segment of the MCU customer gives a shit if LGBT characters exist.
Personally I wouldn't give a shit if Black Widow turned bisexual, she has almost no personality currently AFAICS, and it would fit her screwed up abusive origin story. I guess they could make War Machine or Falcon gay too, if they've demonstrated anything different I must have missed it (I've missed a few films). And obviously Loki is canonically pansexual per Norse mythology. I don't think it would work with any of the major characters. They generally go out of their way to have major characters, who are all male, have a female romantic interest.
Quote from: jeff37923;1046285Looking at the OP title, I don't think that it would be a problem to introduce LGBT characters into the MCU. The problem is that they are changing the established continuity of the characters into social justice parodies - that is what the customers do not like. I doubt that a significant segment of the MCU customer gives a shit if LGBT characters exist.
More importantly - just how important IS IT to get into the sexual lives of Marvel characters in the first place? In the second place - they have very LGBT characters in Marvel, because rather than create compelling ones, they instead chose to morph/replace existing ones into LGBT and expected the public that is not largely LGBT to simply say "YAY!"
I say thee NAY.
And the proof of it is how they did it. Look... I'm Asian but I'm not screaming for Asian-representation. I don't *require* it. I *like* good characters, I don't give a fuck what race they are if they're *good* characters. I want *good* things. Make them *good*. What Marvel has done is give us lame caricatures injected into the place of established characters.
*That's not good*. I want *good*. Whereas they have Asian characters they oddly don't want to touch. Shang-Chi? Hello? Think of how good a Shang-Chi movie could be (and think of how it would sell in China!) Most Americans have no fucking clue who the Master of Kung Fu is... but they didn't know who the fuck Ant-Man was either. My point is they could do it. The reason why they don't do it? For the same ironic reason they didn't let Bruce Lee star in the Kung fu TV show. They don't think an Asian lead could carry a movie.
I think that's silly today - but whatever. They're come to their senses once a bean-counter realizes they could kill it China alone.
It's going to bomb. Because the main demographic of movie goers don't care about superheroes or action films. Most of these women only care to see Helmsworth, Pine, Downey Jr. and Hiddleston prance around on the screen, preferably shirtless. They drag their boyfriends to go with them, which works because for most of the men they just want to see action and explosions.
This will effectively cut their viewership in half as now the boyfriends and other men will simply come to watch hot women prance around in moderately tight costumes, while the their girlfriends will go to their rom-coms and other movies that have their favourite male actors prancing around.
Okay, funny but I think not really accurate. Kate Bishop is an entitled rich girl with a bow and arrows who started calling herself Hawkeye without permission after he died and when written well, they are really funny together. Storm has been conflicted about her leaving Africa to join the X-Men since the 1980s famine relief issue. The Red Skull changed history with a cosmic cube to make Captain America a Hydra agent and it only lasted a couple years. I don't really know America Chavez but she was really fun in Ultimates which sadly got cancelled though they did get to fight the original Ultimates in the last issue. Other than that I mostly agree with you. Go read Matt Fraction's Hawkeye series some time and you'll learn to love / hate Kate Bishop. She's really one of those characters you aren't supposed to like or it wouldn't be so much fun to watch her failures. Also, an entire issue from the point of view of Pizza Dog using ideograms instead of words. Great book.
I'm not that bothered really. I'm getting a bit tired of Superhero movies anyway, so the SJWs can have it.. heh
Quote from: blackstone;1046208Don't be surprised if there is a gay character and it's shown in the film, it's filmed in a way to where is can be easily edited out to be marketed and shown in those countries.
THIS is exactly what Hollywood does.
They do many different modifications for many different countries. What plays in the USA isn't what is allowed elsewhere so scenes & tidbits often get removed.
Quote from: Brad;1046268I'm a hardcore Cap fanboy, and this is the biggest understatement of the century.
Me and my wife love Cap so much that we had our wedding cake in the form of his shield. To turn him on his head like that really really really annoys the fuck out of me.[/nerdrage]
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1046371Me and my wife love Cap so much that we had our wedding cake in the form of his shield. To turn him on his head like that really really really annoys the fuck out of me.[/nerdrage]
I can understand that. But comics are so goofy. Characters flip from villain to hero at the drop of a hat. Continuities get written and re-written and then retconned back. Seeing cap say "Hail hydra" was just a Superdickery moment for me.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1046404I can understand that. But comics are so goofy. Characters flip from villain to hero at the drop of a hat. Continuities get written and re-written and then retconned back. Seeing cap say "Hail hydra" was just a Superdickery moment for me.
This is precisely because Marvel has had inconsistent Editors in Chief. The Golden Era of Marvel which reaches its zenith in the mid-late 80's - most of those storylines and what people consider in terms of what these characters solidified into came under the hand of Jim Shooter. A lot of people thought Shooter was a total tyrant. I maintain that Shooter is one of the most influential, and best EiC's comics has ever had. Shooter wanted all writers to understand and stay within certain confines on each character. He maintained a strong and steady hand guiding the stories, which naturally made him a lot of enemies.
If you're interested in the details of that era, check this out.
http://rsmwriter.blogspot.com/2016/06/jim-shooter-second-opinion.html
For those who suggest that the problem is changing established characters into LGBT - I find that strange considering how frequently characters change in the comics. There are tons of changes as well as outright retcons. Notably, there is this -
Quote from: tenbones;1046270I've said this before - you CAN do Social Justice as a real theme in comics. It's been done for DECADES and done with real moral consideration. I present to you the ultimate example: Magneto.
He's a super-minority within a minority (a Jewish mutant) - actually lived through Auschwitz and persecuted by the actual Nazis. He's been on the receiving end of a genocidal pogrom. Then he discovers his powers and is faced with the awful understanding of what drives men's fears. He creates his own brand of Identity Politics - he sees Mutants as a separate racial stock than homo sapiens - homo superior. And he falls to the lowest common denominator, that ultimately these two races will clash out of fear of one another. Initially he fights to bring down the system - and realizes the tide of numbers is against him (after getting his ass handed to him repeatedly). Then he goes after claiming his own land for his own kind (the S. African Apartheid analog Genosha) which he begins like SJW's do - to enact the very things he himself has raged against: persecuting the non-mutants, ultimately genocide. It's been pretty much rinse/repeat ever since.
That's notable to me because it is several major retcons. Magneto was only rewritten to be a Holocaust survivor by Claremont many years after the character was created. Another retcon made him the father of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch by his wife Magda. (They were originally the children of Django and Marya Maximoff, then later made the children of Whizzer and Miss America). He was implied gypsy like Magda was rather than Jewish, and named Erik Magnus Lensherr. A much later retcon made him Jewish with the real name Max Eisenhardt.
The arguments made here suggest that if someone wanted a social justice plotline about the Holocaust and persecution, then they should have created a new Jewish character rather than retconning Magneto.
Quote from: tenbonesMore importantly - just how important IS IT to get into the sexual lives of Marvel characters in the first place? In the second place - they have very LGBT characters in Marvel, because rather than create compelling ones, they instead chose to morph/replace existing ones into LGBT and expected the public that is not largely LGBT to simply say "YAY!"
I say thee NAY.
Regarding the first part - Nearly all of the major Marvel characters have extensive plotlines about their romantic connections - Peter Parker and Gwen Stacy (and later Mary Jane), Reed Richards and Sue Storm, etc. Heck, even the Thing has a girlfriend (Alicia Masters). The romantic plotlines have been incredibly thick particularly in some series like the X-Men.
As for the latter - comic characters change all the time. Many of the iconic characters have a ton of changes since their first appearance - keeping a few key details at best.
Changes and retcons are tricky, and can often be bad - but comics in general can often be bad, and sticking tediously to bad material can also be bad. I'm not familiar with any comics characters being rewritten to be LGBT. I've heard of a few - Northstar, Iceman, and Valkyrie - but haven't read about the comics in question. So I have no particularly yay or nay for any examples at this point, but I disagree with the principles of "romance isn't important in comics" and "don't change existing characters".
Quote from: jhkim;1046426Changes and retcons are tricky, and can often be bad - but comics in general can often be bad, and sticking tediously to bad material can also be bad. I'm not familiar with any comics characters being rewritten to be LGBT. I've heard of a few - Northstar, Iceman, and Valkyrie - but haven't read about the comics in question. So I have no particularly yay or nay for any examples at this point, but I disagree with the principles of "romance isn't important in comics" and "don't change existing characters".
How about "Don't change existing characters according to some activist ideology. Don't try to ram social justice down our throats, at the expense of story."
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1046432How about "Don't change existing characters according to some activist ideology. Don't try to ram social justice down our throats, at the expense of story."
That's what Magneto was, though. I agree with tenbones that he was changed for social justice reasons, as part of an ideology - starting with Claremont in the 1980s.
All stories have ideology in them. The question is about doing it well rather than doing it poorly.
Quote from: jhkim;1046435That's what Magneto was, though. I agree with tenbones that he was changed for social justice reasons, as part of an ideology - starting with Claremont in the 1980s.
All stories have ideology in them. The question is about doing it well rather than doing it poorly.
I'd agree with you. I think the call to have no politics or ideology in entertainment is not productive.
I do think the latest spate of activist entertainment is terribly done, sacrificing story for ideology.
Quote from: jhkim;1046435That's what Magneto was, though. I agree with tenbones that he was changed for social justice reasons, as part of an ideology - starting with Claremont in the 1980s.
All stories have ideology in them. The question is about doing it well rather than doing it poorly.
I'm with you in principle. I don't particularly have a problem with making a character gay if it's plausible from their back story. I can see why some might be annoyed with Iceman's handling of it and if it's as silly as tenbones described it, I might roll my eyes and not buy the comic (as opposed to exploding into nerdrage about it).
I also have no issues with a character being rebooted as a person of a different gender, race or sexuality. It's cooler when they are original (like when Superman died and all these interesting replacements came up), but rebooting and changing a character radically can be interesting too.
Captain America being a nazi is pretty stupid, though.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1046436I'd agree with you. I think the call to have no politics or ideology in entertainment is not productive.
I do think the latest spate of activist entertainment is terribly done, sacrificing story for ideology.
What are you classifying in the latest spate? Personally, among films, I pretty well liked Wonder Woman, Thor: Ragnarok, Black Panther, and Get Out - along with Coco and Moana. Those are the ones that first come to mind as big-budget entertainment with an activist spin. I was so-so over the last Star Wars movies, but I'm not much of a Star Wars fan.
I'm not a big reader of most mainstream superhero comics these days, so I have no opinion on most of those.
Quote from: jhkim;1046451What are you classifying in the latest spate? Personally, among films, I pretty well liked Wonder Woman, Thor: Ragnarok, Black Panther, and Get Out - along with Coco and Moana. Those are the ones that first come to mind as big-budget entertainment with an activist spin. I was so-so over the last Star Wars movies, but I'm not much of a Star Wars fan.
I'm not a big reader of most mainstream superhero comics these days, so I have no opinion on most of those.
(https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/FeministAgenda2-1.jpg)
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/072/024/241.jpg)
(https://i.redd.it/6aw3vw8uep501.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/S/cmx-images-prod/Item/359067/Previews/d34911dccdb31e143ce1a0d8e379bd67._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg)
Quote from: tenbones;1046409This is precisely because Marvel has had inconsistent Editors in Chief. The Golden Era of Marvel which reaches its zenith in the mid-late 80's - most of those storylines and what people consider in terms of what these characters solidified into came under the hand of Jim Shooter. A lot of people thought Shooter was a total tyrant. I maintain that Shooter is one of the most influential, and best EiC's comics has ever had. Shooter wanted all writers to understand and stay within certain confines on each character. He maintained a strong and steady hand guiding the stories, which naturally made him a lot of enemies.
If you're interested in the details of that era, check this out.
http://rsmwriter.blogspot.com/2016/06/jim-shooter-second-opinion.html
The unsung talent is habitually the editors. The power of 'No' is paramount. See: Star Wars.
:)
It's also the department most ripe for abuse. See: rpg.net.
:)
Something, something, Spiderman quote about 'with great power comes great responsibility'. :D
Yeah, there has been a long-standing discussion about comics in the still-active thread "Marvel Comics something something (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?37640-Marvel-Comics-something-something), prompted by a bunch of people who have never read a Black Panther comic in decades mouthing off about how awful the current run is, despite never having read it.
Basically, I judge comics by reading comics - not by YouTube videos or GIFs.
After seeing Black Panther, I have no idea what ideology they wanted to promote. The "villain" wanted to save all Africans worldwide and flip the social order. Black Panther teamed up with a honky to make sure that didn't happen. And Wonder Woman showed us the mighty island of Amazons couldn't handle a few boatloads of sailors without an American dude showing the girls what's what.
The movies are SJWing wrong.
EDIT: and if the Force was female, then Mary Sue Rey wouldn't have needed Darth Crybaby to save her from Snoke or Grandpa Luke to save Leia and the last rebels nobody in the galaxy wanted to assist.
Quote from: jhkim;1046470Yeah, there has been a long-standing discussion about comics in the still-active thread "Marvel Comics something something (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?37640-Marvel-Comics-something-something), prompted by a bunch of people who have never read a Black Panther comic in decades mouthing off about how awful the current run is, despite never having read it.
Basically, I judge comics by reading comics - not by YouTube videos or GIFs.
Unfortunately, I'm one of those people that has read them and I find them to be propagandist dogshit.
The connection here is "how much of this dogshit are they going to use to inform their injection of such topics into the MCU?"
I'm certainly not saying you can't cover those topics. I'm saying that if they use them as they have in Marvel's comics they will kill the MCU. The MCU works because they're using established storylines and characters. The LGBT "issues" aren't working in the Comics because they inserted them into those established characters by doing the exact same thing they did in Star Wars.
Let's replace and deconstruct these established heroes and put these caricatures in their place!
Viola! Diversity!
White Male Patriarchy!!!! WHaRGARBLE!
The Black Panther movie was a mixed bag for me. ***Spoilers ahead****
I love the actors portrayal of their various characters (except T'challas little sister who reminded me of Riri Williams's ironheart) but there were some glaring plotholes that threw me out of the movie. The assumptions they make about Wakanda itself I found laughable - as it is not really like the classical Wakanda of the comics. Namely they weren't hiding from anyone. You simply weren't allowed there or you'd die (which is VERY ironic given today's political situation where everyone is screaming about identity-politics and stuff, and here you go an African ethnostate that enforces the death penalty on anyone not of their nation or bloodlines without permission.) And the movie did have this - but they made it a lot more passive/aggressive - which okay I'm fine with that. What really threw me out was the motivation of Killmonger. Dumbest idea ever. A bunch of vibranium spear-wielding terrorists are going to take over the world and make Wakanda top nation on the planet? Unless they expect everyone watching to not have seen any other MCU movies, this was the dumbest idea ever.
The bigotted comments from his little sister didn't help either. My surprisingly interest came from the guy playing Man-Ape! He was cool and I wish he got more screen time. Nice twist to that character!
So the MCU will finish strong. The moment they start putting in these LGBT themed characters... I'm not confident they'll pull it off.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1046472After seeing Black Panther, I have no idea what ideology they wanted to promote. The "villain" wanted to save all Africans worldwide and flip the social order. Black Panther teamed up with a honky to make sure that didn't happen. And Wonder Woman showed us the mighty island of Amazons couldn't handle a few boatloads of sailors without an American dude showing the girls what's what.
The movies are SJWing wrong.
Black Panther just had Black Nazis and Wonder Woman felt more like a fish out of water story for the most part. Sure the movies may be slanted one way or another, but I didn't feel like there was a major agenda trying to be stuffed down the viewers throat.
Quote from: Ras Algethi;1046491Black Panther just had Black Nazis and Wonder Woman felt more like a fish out of water story for the most part. Sure the movies may be slanted one way or another, but I didn't feel like there was a major agenda trying to be stuffed down the viewers throat.
I glossed over Black Panther, so I don't have too much to contribute. I did watch and enjoyed Wonder Woman. It wasn't stuffed with propaganda. The ending sucked, but that's pretty common for superhero movies.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1046496I glossed over Black Panther, so I don't have too much to contribute. I did watch and enjoyed Wonder Woman. It wasn't stuffed with propaganda. The ending sucked, but that's pretty common for superhero movies.
And it appears they're bringing Chris Pine back for the sequel.... I hope the co-stars make the same amount. ;-p
Quote from: Ras Algethi;1046491Black Panther just had Black Nazis and Wonder Woman felt more like a fish out of water story for the most part. Sure the movies may be slanted one way or another, but I didn't feel like there was a major agenda trying to be stuffed down the viewers throat.
Well I think the director had some respect for Killmonger's Black Nazi position - many of the reviewers certainly did - but I don't think that really harmed the film. Black Panther still killed the guy, and BP's respect for K seemed as much or more for K's royal bloodline as for the attractiveness of his kill-whitey ideals. I liked the film a lot.
Quote from: S'mon;1046510Well I think the director had some respect for Killmonger's Black Nazi position - many of the reviewers certainly did - but I don't think that really harmed the film. Black Panther still killed the guy, and BP's respect for K seemed as much or more for K's royal bloodline as for the attractiveness of his kill-whitey ideals. I liked the film a lot.
I enjoyed the film as well. I am perplexed at the ratings it has (I thought Ragnorock was a better film for example) and it being rated better than classics just seems silly. I thought BP had more pity for Killmonger because of how he was raised (his family killed, left in America) than any sympathy for his beliefs.
Quote from: Ras Algethi;1046511I enjoyed the film as well. I am perplexed at the ratings it has (I thought Ragnorock was a better film for example)
I thought the humour in Ragnarok was wildly excessive and inappropriate, undermining the later pathos, and it was a very low-budget Armageddon at the end. It had fun bits but I liked Black Panther a lot better; it was better crafted and took itself much more seriously, which is very important in fantasy films to maintain immersion in the imaginary world.
My favorite out of the latest superhero movies was/is Ant Man. Fun. Different story than what's been done so far. (Heist flick) And it wasn't so goddamn EPIC that I felt like checking out. I haven't been interested in seeing Infinity War primarily for that reason.
Looking forward to Ant Man & The Wasp.
Quote from: S'mon;1046510Well I think the director had some respect for Killmonger's Black Nazi position - many of the reviewers certainly did - but I don't think that really harmed the film. Black Panther still killed the guy, and BP's respect for K seemed as much or more for K's royal bloodline as for the attractiveness of his kill-whitey ideals. I liked the film a lot.
Actually, it was more racist than I thought. It's teaching it's OK to call white folks 'colonizers'. Which is wildly inaccurate. The ones that came from Greece didn't. There were four major Empires that colonized the West, the French, the English, the Dutch and the Spanish (which apparently, somewhere along the lines became Black???) And you know what's really funny? The Irish back in the day were treated like second class citizens almost as much as the Black and Asian folks. But it's always been about the Black Americans, let's forget that the Civil Rights Act of '64 opened doors for everyone. EVERYONE.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1046542My favorite out of the latest superhero movies was/is Ant Man. Fun. Different story than what's been done so far. (Heist flick) And it wasn't so goddamn EPIC that I felt like checking out. I haven't been interested in seeing Infinity War primarily for that reason.
Looking forward to Ant Man & The Wasp.
I liked Winter Soldier because it was closer to a spy thriller than an out and out here are the good guys, here the bad guys, FIGHT!
Although I liked Ant-Man, I have some reservations about the second film, a couple of shots in the trailer played for laughs bothered me. The main one is here, during the trailer:
[video=youtube_share;8_rTIAOohas]https://youtu.be/8_rTIAOohas?t=76[/youtube]
For those who don't want to click, the line goes:
Paul Rudd/Scott Lang: Hold on, you gave her wings?
Michael Douglas/Hank Pym: And blasters.
SL: I take it you didn't have that tech for me.
HP: Oh no I did.
SL looks stunned at HP.
Funny, right? That's a severe lack of trust to not upgrade the suit after the guy effectively proves himself twice in effectively saving the world, and sadly, I didn't find it very amusing. And given the political tone that's going through the MCU at the moment... I don't have much more hope.
I thought it was hilarious because it shows that no matter what Scott does, Hank has and always will see him as expendable.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1046567Actually, it was more racist than I thought. It's teaching it's OK to call white folks 'colonizers'.
BP's sister being mildly racist didn't bother me, she still healed the white CIA guy after all. One reason in the film for Wakanda's isolation had been to avoid being colonised by the European powers, so it seemed plausible to me. I guess one might object that her character is a bit of a Mary Sue and there are some minor issues around how American writers & directors write African characters (IRL Africans in general are definitely not overly concerned about internal US politics, or massively interested in the affairs of African-Americans - much less than eg white Europeans are); but by Hollywood standards it was really not bad, and my African friends who commented definitely liked the film a lot.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1046567It's teaching it's OK to call white folks 'colonizers'.
Why the fuck would the Wakandans use that as a slur, anyway? They don't give the remotest hint of a fuck about other Africans or the rest of the world.
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1046603Why the fuck would the Wakandans use that as a slur, anyway? They don't give the remotest hint of a fuck about other Africans or the rest of the world.
Cause they Wokandans!
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1046580I thought it was hilarious because it shows that no matter what Scott does, Hank has and always will see him as expendable.
Yeah. Scott's always got to prove himself to Hank. And if he's going to give his daughter a super-suit, by god she's going to get the good shit.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1046567Actually, it was more racist than I thought. It's teaching it's OK to call white folks 'colonizers'. Which is wildly inaccurate. The ones that came from Greece didn't.
Uh what? Someone needs to re-read his Thucydides. The Greeks were massive colonizers. And that's before taking a certain Macedonian into account. It wasn't until the even more agressive Romans and then the absolutely genocidal goatfuckers that the Greek colonies started to disappear. I'd also point out that early Christianity -- an extremely colonizing force -- was largely Greek.
Quote from: KingCheops;1046627Uh what? Someone needs to re-read his Thucydides. The Greeks were massive colonizers. And that's before taking a certain Macedonian into account. It wasn't until the even more agressive Romans and then the absolutely genocidal goatfuckers that the Greek colonies started to disappear. I'd also point out that early Christianity -- an extremely colonizing force -- was largely Greek.
Quite. Greek and Phoenician colonisation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity) was a major thing for several centuries of antiquity. Then as you say, Alexander and his Successors then planted Makedonian colonies all over Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Afghanistan.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1046616Cause they Wokandans!
OK, that was funny. :)
Quote from: S'mon;1046510Well I think the director had some respect for Killmonger's Black Nazi position
I didn't even see Killmonger as a Black Nazi. Imagine the unbelievable outrage of every other African country (and most other black people worldwide) if they learned that one country in Africa had been hiding the tools to ensure freedom for everyone. I don't think the response to a real Wakanda would be "oh, that's cool you guys stayed hidden while our continent and people have been plundered for centuries".
...and then there's the refugee situation. How many tens of millions would make their way to Wakanda? Then what? Wakanda blasts them? Vibranium doesn't turn dirt into food.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1046616Cause they Wokandans!
You win the thread!
Quote from: Kiero;1046643Quite. Greek and Phoenician colonisation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity) was a major thing for several centuries of antiquity. Then as you say, Alexander and his Successors then planted Makedonian colonies all over Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Afghanistan.
Then you may as well claim that the Mongols and the Persians were colonizers.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1046666I didn't even see Killmonger as a Black Nazi. Imagine the unbelievable outrage of every other African country (and most other black people worldwide) if they learned that one country in Africa had been hiding the tools to ensure freedom for everyone. I don't think the response to a real Wakanda would be "oh, that's cool you guys stayed hidden while our continent and people have been plundered for centuries".
...and then there's the refugee situation. How many tens of millions would make their way to Wakanda? Then what? Wakanda blasts them? Vibranium doesn't turn dirt into food.
If you don't see shades of Nazism in the idea of one group taking over the world and ruling it based on their racial (black identity) I don't know what to tell you. It's no different that a uber-South Africa taking over and making sure each country was run by white Europeans.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1046666I didn't even see Killmonger as a Black Nazi. Imagine the unbelievable outrage of every other African country (and most other black people worldwide) if they learned that one country in Africa had been hiding the tools to ensure freedom for everyone. I don't think the response to a real Wakanda would be "oh, that's cool you guys stayed hidden while our continent and people have been plundered for centuries".
...and then there's the refugee situation. How many tens of millions would make their way to Wakanda? Then what? Wakanda blasts them? Vibranium doesn't turn dirt into food.
Holy shit, it would be hilarious to have Wakanda inundated with socialist activists "seizing the means of production", and toppling the monarchical power structure.
Quote from: Kiero;1046643Quite. Greek and Phoenician colonisation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity) was a major thing for several centuries of antiquity. Then as you say, Alexander and his Successors then planted Makedonian colonies all over Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Afghanistan.
Lemme correct myself then, in the concept of the term that is used nowadays, the constant historical rewrite about how Africans kept being 'kidnapped' for slavery to the Americas, or how ONLY White People from Europe came over and oppressed the North American Natives. That 'meaning' of 'colonizer'. The one that focuses on the current generation of white American.
Because otherwise, we could point out that EVERY single group of humans, nations or otherwise has colonized.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1046689That 'meaning' of 'colonizer'. The one that focuses on the current generation of white American.
OK, so the one that applies the term to those that likely have never colonized anywhere at all.
I remember when words meant something, but I guess this is like the 5e Cavalier that has almost nothing to it (aside from one minor level 3 ability) associated with riding a damn horse.
Quote from: Ras Algethi;1046672Then you may as well claim that the Mongols and the Persians were colonizers.
Uh, no, neither system involved transplanting large numbers of their people as settlers into foreign places. The Persians at least grafted on a new elite, but didn't have the manpower to supplant entire echelons of the native society. For those places at the fringes of their empire, a token submission of earth and water, along with paying tribute was all they required. They weren't trying to "convert" people, just administer them, creaming off a profit.
Not the same as the way the Greeks and Phoenicians planted entire communities of their people in strategic places (either commercial or military) with a view to controlling those places.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1046689Lemme correct myself then, in the concept of the term that is used nowadays, the constant historical rewrite about how Africans kept being 'kidnapped' for slavery to the Americas, or how ONLY White People from Europe came over and oppressed the North American Natives. That 'meaning' of 'colonizer'. The one that focuses on the current generation of white American.
Because otherwise, we could point out that EVERY single group of humans, nations or otherwise has colonized.
Don't get me started on the bullshit revisionism that overlooks the Arab middle men and the complicity of African nations in the slave trade. Or that far more Africans were trafficked to the Ottoman Empire than ever made it to ships for the Americas.
Quote from: Brad;1046268This crap actually undermines the past 40+ years of comics, with the mutants standing in the place of real-world minorities. Where before we read comics and used our brains to draw parallels between mutants and minorities, might as well just throw all that shit out the window and instead get clobbered over the head with non-subtle bullshit. I seriously wonder if the current writers have any idea to tell an actual story; seems like all they can do is just spout political rhetoric.
There is at least an opportunity here to recognize something about the media. If x-men comics have abandoned subtlety for blatant racial propaganda, it follows that what they used to be was subtle racial propaganda. It's not a pleasant thing to consider when thinking about something I used to think of as simple entertainment; I have fond memories of the X-men cartoon in particular. But, if this is what it always was, mutants vs normals as a stand-in for minorities vs whites, and the blatant propaganda is pointed in the same political direction as the subtle propaganda, it is a warning that those of us who partook should take stock of ourselves and consider how our understanding of these topics has been subtly shaped by medias that we chose to believe were mere entertainment.
Quote from: Alathon;1046711There is at least an opportunity here to recognize something about the media. If x-men comics have abandoned subtlety for blatant racial propaganda, it follows that what they used to be was subtle racial propaganda. It's not a pleasant thing to consider when thinking about something I used to think of as simple entertainment; I have fond memories of the X-men cartoon in particular. But, if this is what it always was, mutants vs normals as a stand-in for minorities vs whites, and the blatant propaganda is pointed in the same political direction as the subtle propaganda, it is a warning that those of us who partook should take stock of ourselves and consider how our understanding of these topics has been subtly shaped by medias that we chose to believe were mere entertainment.
I think the difference is, like Let That Be Your Last Battlefield (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Let_That_Be_Your_Last_Battlefield_(episode)), X-Men was not exploring a specific agenda, but the topic itself. Most good stories have some kind of moral at the center.
But yes, the media does have some effect on us. It can have a very good effect, and a very bad effect.
Quote from: Alathon;1046711There is at least an opportunity here to recognize something about the media. If x-men comics have abandoned subtlety for blatant racial propaganda, it follows that what they used to be was subtle racial propaganda. It's not a pleasant thing to consider when thinking about something I used to think of as simple entertainment; I have fond memories of the X-men cartoon in particular. But, if this is what it always was, mutants vs normals as a stand-in for minorities vs whites, and the blatant propaganda is pointed in the same political direction as the subtle propaganda, it is a warning that those of us who partook should take stock of ourselves and consider how our understanding of these topics has been subtly shaped by medias that we chose to believe were mere entertainment.
Well yeah, one should be aware of this. But relatively subtle propaganda can often make good art. Unsubtle propaganda rarely does.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1046666...and then there's the refugee situation. How many tens of millions would make their way to Wakanda? Then what? Wakanda blasts them? Vibranium doesn't turn dirt into food.
Considering the bullshit they pulled with vibranium in the movie I wouldn't be surprised if wunderkind Shuri somehow said "Oh yeah I just tweak this and that and bingo vibranium makes unlimited food because it is the magical mcguffin that makes our perfect African civilization work."
At least the Inhumans were dealing with an uprising due to overpopulation and the class system.
This has REALLY veered off topic, and we already have a general Marvel thread.