"Leaders" and the Real Social Dynamics of Gaming Groups

[tenbones]

If someone could translate those terms into Farscape or Walking Dead characters that would be awesome.

Sounds fun! I'll give it a shot with Walking Dead.

Kirks = No one. No one on Walking Dead is a Kirk. Which is their problem. People will want to say Rick is - but Rick lacks the resolve and determination and sense of certainty that guides a Kirk. In fact, the hallmark of the show is that it lacks a leader. Rick and the rest are way too full of self-doubt.

Spocks = Hershel He is technical, lives by a code. But he is looking for a Kirk but will make do as needed in a systematic approach. No leader? We'll make a "Council".

Bones = Rick Rick is not a natural leader. He's a guy that was in a position of authority and is "filling in". His moral compass is fluid, and goes with what feels right - which is the hallmark of the Bones role. He's got everyone's back until his flawed moral compass leads him down the wrong trail. One might argue Hershel is a Bones too... but I think Hershel, after season 2 is much more sober (npi) than Rick in terms of his outlook.

Scotty = Darryl He's single-minded, has his own thing going on: survival which has morphed to include everyone in the pack. He keeps the engine of the group going mechanically - gets food, medicine, whatever is needed to survive. Definite specialist. And by season 4, he's close to mutating into a Kirk, but not quite.

Jayne = Shayne Shane. Too easy. Survival at all costs, including shooting your allies and friends to appease those animal needs. Carl is also a Jayne. And turning into a damn good one. Michonne is also a Jayne - but by season 4 is morphing into a Scotty.

Sulu = Glenn Glenn is a Sulu turning into a Scotty. He keeps his Sulu status because he inevitably falls victim to his own naivete about his position in things. Especially with Maggie. He's always trying to help, always getting into inadvertent trouble - and always needs rescuing. Hallmark of a Sulu. Starting with season 4 - Carol is a Sulu. And is rapidly evolving. She used to be a Chekov of the worst kind. Tyrese is the current #2 Sulu. Andrea was a Sulu oddly turning into a Jayne.

Uhura = Maggie Maggie is down the team. More down with Glenn. But she's got everyone's back. She has no leadership role, doesn't seem to want one. Classic Uhura. However she's stepping up to the plate. She could be Bones material later. T-Dogg was an Uhura, as was Dale.

Chekov = A LOT OF PEOPLE Chekovs are pretty much: Lori, Beth, Sasha, and anyone else in the show that's going to be used to wring our emotions as senseless deaths used for shock-value.

[Al Livingstone]

I like this comparison. Bizarrely (given her starting point) if anyone in TWD ever becomes 'the Kirk', it'll probably be Carol.

[Omega]

Personally I prefer the situational leadership method.

When you are winding down unknown halls the Thief is at the forefront calling the shots. When the undead crawl out of the woodwork or everyones dinged up the Cleric comes to the fore. Unknown magical whatsit or enemy caster incoming then the Magic user steps in, etc.

Doesnt allways conform to the players though of course.

And as pointed out in other threads. Sometimes no one wants to be the leader and someone ends up pushed into the role because the group wants a leader/caller/whatever.

As for the DM being the leader. Depends on the style. Some are dynamic and commanding, which can bleed into railroading at the extreems. Others are very passive or freeform. Playing off the group and reacting rather than initiating. Some are little more than adventure vending machines, roll random table, fight monster. And lots of other approaches.

[tenbones]

DM's aren't "Party leaders" in the game because they're DMing and not in the party. The only times it should ever come to that kinda stuff is with total noobs who don't even know how to follow obvious clues, and DM's have to put in an NPC to prod folks.

And it's almost always a bad idea. DM's should just be the invisible thing making the world operate with consistency.

[RPGPundit]

Other than the fact that most groups, for very practical reasons, want a leader and thus they often end up with a leader...the rest of your oh so simplistic characterization is pretty useless. The notion that a group requires an omega to function is peurile, nor is it born out by my experience (in gaming or otherwise).

You really need to get out and experience more kinds of groups.

My gaming pool (of real people, not online) includes about 200 people. Actively speaking, at the moment, there's 18 different people in my 3 regular gaming groups.

How about you?

[RPGPundit]

DM's aren't "Party leaders" in the game because they're DMing and not in the party.

Not "party leaders", gaming group leaders.

[ArrozConLeche]

Pretty awesome. Thanks!

I think that it actually drives the point home for me. Playing in a group without a leader has been kind of boring for me for the exact same reason. Everyone is off doing stupid shit on their own (because their characters are all independent mavericks, blah blah how boring) and that dynamic ends up disrupting the fun for me.

Sounds fun! I'll give it a shot with Walking Dead.

Kirks = No one. No one on Walking Dead is a Kirk. Which is their problem. People will want to say Rick is - but Rick lacks the resolve and determination and sense of certainty that guides a Kirk. In fact, the hallmark of the show is that it lacks a leader. Rick and the rest are way too full of self-doubt.

Spocks = Hershel He is technical, lives by a code. But he is looking for a Kirk but will make do as needed in a systematic approach. No leader? We'll make a "Council".

Bones = Rick Rick is not a natural leader. He's a guy that was in a position of authority and is "filling in". His moral compass is fluid, and goes with what feels right - which is the hallmark of the Bones role. He's got everyone's back until his flawed moral compass leads him down the wrong trail. One might argue Hershel is a Bones too... but I think Hershel, after season 2 is much more sober (npi) than Rick in terms of his outlook.

Scotty = Darryl He's single-minded, has his own thing going on: survival which has morphed to include everyone in the pack. He keeps the engine of the group going mechanically - gets food, medicine, whatever is needed to survive. Definite specialist. And by season 4, he's close to mutating into a Kirk, but not quite.

Jayne = Shayne Shane. Too easy. Survival at all costs, including shooting your allies and friends to appease those animal needs. Carl is also a Jayne. And turning into a damn good one. Michonne is also a Jayne - but by season 4 is morphing into a Scotty.

Sulu = Glenn Glenn is a Sulu turning into a Scotty. He keeps his Sulu status because he inevitably falls victim to his own naivete about his position in things. Especially with Maggie. He's always trying to help, always getting into inadvertent trouble - and always needs rescuing. Hallmark of a Sulu. Starting with season 4 - Carol is a Sulu. And is rapidly evolving. She used to be a Chekov of the worst kind. Tyrese is the current #2 Sulu. Andrea was a Sulu oddly turning into a Jayne.

Uhura = Maggie Maggie is down the team. More down with Glenn. But she's got everyone's back. She has no leadership role, doesn't seem to want one. Classic Uhura. However she's stepping up to the plate. She could be Bones material later. T-Dogg was an Uhura, as was Dale.

Chekov = A LOT OF PEOPLE Chekovs are pretty much: Lori, Beth, Sasha, and anyone else in the show that's going to be used to wring our emotions as senseless deaths used for shock-value.

[tenbones]

Not "party leaders", gaming group leaders.

Absolutely.

[Bren]

My gaming pool (of real people, not online) includes about 200 people. Actively speaking, at the moment, there's 18 different people in my 3 regular gaming groups.

How about you?

Apparently large enough to have experienced multiple groups with different dynamics than yours. Since you aren't seeing different behaviors in your gaming groups, then either your sample size is too small or you are self-selecting for the same behaviors in the groups you game with.

The only groups I've been in that matched the behaviors you describe were the ones we had in High School. Most of us subsequently grew out of the need to have a whipping boy in our gaming group. The people who didn't grow out of that need aren't people I still game with.

[Novastar]

If someone could translate those terms into Farscape or Walking Dead characters that would be awesome.

Oh, interesting challenge:

John Crichton (Ben Browder) - Spock; Crichton is without a doubt the most talented overall in the show (even before the wormhole knowledge). He inevitably comes up with the plan, but people don't follow the plan because they like or respect Chrchton, but because it's the only plan that might work.

Aeryn Sun (Claudia Black) - Jayne; Aeryn is solidly a gunbunny and warrior. She has no ambitions to be much more than that, either. She ultimately becomes more than "just a soldier", but it still defines her.

Ka D'Argo (Anthony Simcoe) - Jayne that matures into a Kirk; D'Argo starts nearly of as just another warrior, but quickly cements his place as a leader amongst the crew. The crew listens to Crichton; they follow D'Argo.

Pa'u Zotoh Zhaan (Virginia Hey) - Bones; the spiritual center of the group.

Moya (Ship) – Don't forget the ship is alive! It's a definite Uhura, often sacrificing to protect the crew.

Dominar Rygel XVI (voiced by Jonathan Hardy) - Scotty; his specialty wasn't engines, but information and procurement. When the crew needs something, Rigel sets it up.

Chiana (Gigi Edgley) - Sulu; Chiana is an experienced Sulu, making good back-up to either Crichton, Aeryn, or D'Argo.

Pilot (voiced by Lani Tupu) - Scotty; He's their contact with Moya, and the only way they can cross the cosmos, but he's literally tied to Moya.

Stark (Paul Goddard) – Crazy Bones; during his moments of lucidity, he cuts things down to the bone with his insights. The rest of the time, he's screaming "My side!".

Bialar Crais (Lani Tupu) – Kirk; the first season is all about Crais looking for revenge. While he doesn't achieve it, his agency starts the entire series. When he later takes over Talon, he becomes a one-man crew.

Scorpius (Wayne Pygram) - Dark Kirk; like a dark reflection in a Mirror, Mirror, Scorpius is a true Kirk. His agency moves entire galactic empires into motion.

[Spike]

Nice! I like how the main badguys wound up being the Kirks. Sort of vaguely suggests a means to wrangle my group... giving them a very strong NPC enemy to drive them.  Might be worth a shot, anyway.

[Novastar]

yeah, my wife thinks I'm crazy, putting Crichton as the Spock instead of the Kirk, but I never felt that Crichton moved the group, so much as the story.

[ligedog]

I think the pundit is comparing apples and oranges.  The DM or GM is not part of the group - they are an entity beyond the group and the only hierarchy that matters in the actual play of the game is among the players. It does really move things along if one of the players takes it upon themselves to lead the group.

[Kiero]

Chekovs - These are the players that invariably follow what others are doing. They don't necessarily have the strength of personality to pursue things on their own for whatever reason. Consequently, Chekovs tend to get into trouble that is obvious to other players and not themselves. They create mishaps in games due to their own self-conscious desire to not want to do anything that might make them look like a fuck-up. Their characters develop usually as consequences of what happens in the story to them, rarely out of intent. You can't have sessions based around Chekovs, and most sub-plots fail due to lack of pursuit on the Chekov's part. Chekovs never mutate into anything. They play for metagame reasons of socializing with other people who are actually there to play an RPG.

Ugh, the worst sort of player to have at the table. I don't care if they're a great person, who smells good and who brings snacks or whatever else, they're a drag on play. I'm categorically not interested in playing with tag-alongs who are only there because they can't find any other means to socialise with other human beings.

[The Butcher]

Ugh, the worst sort of player to have at the table. I don't care if they're a great person, who smells good and who brings snacks or whatever else, they're a drag on play. I'm categorically not interested in playing with tag-alongs who are only there because they can't find any other means to socialise with other human beings.

I love me a player with initiative as much as the next GM, but we do have a player who tends to play the "silent loner" type who mostly tags along for the ride and revels in combat. Usually plays a ranger or a ninja or somesuch.

I'm not sure whether he fits the criteria for a "Chekhov" but he's a good soldier and God knows every party needs those.

As for social dysfunction, if someone's taking showers and bringing snacks and a great person, he or she is unlikely to lack avenues for socialization outside RPGs. He or she probably enjoys the game for what it is, but engages more passively with whatever transpires at the game table. I would be happy to invite them again but YMMV.