Here's your Mask Protocol

[FelixGamingX1]

Today I met a lady proudly virtue signaling she didn't have to wear one because she's been "fully vaccinated". Too bad I didn't have any cookies to give here. I'm sure her parents are proud.

[Garry G]

The US doesn't have capacity problems to anywhere near the same degree.

And I don't believe you've explained it anywhere, in this thread. So you're conceding the argument.

And the Commonwealth Fund makes the fundamental mistake of mostly measuring inputs, not outcomes. You get points if the care you provide is free to the end user, which should be a means to a desired end (say wider health coverage) rather than a measured result. And the outcomes that are measured, like the one with "outcomes" in its name, look at data that isn't uniformly collected across all the countries (thus they're measuring different things), and even more critically, it's looking at absolute numbers rather than relative improvements. The US tends to be pretty fat, which isn't a problem that can be solved by the practice of medicine, so it's unreasonable to say the medical system is a failure because of that. The document even blatantly admits this: "U.S. health outcomes could therefore be improved through actions targeting factors beyond health care." The document is designed to reward the types of healthcare systems the authors decided worked best, before they even looked at the data; rather than a fair analysis of which system worked best, relative to the different conditions. It's propaganda for specific policies, nothing more.

I concede nothing! I've repeated myself at least twice elsewhere and get bored.

The USA runs at the same capacity percentage as the UK., https://intermountainhealthcare.org/blogs/topics/covid-19/2020/11/covid-19-what-it-means-for-a-hospital-icu-to-be-at-capacity

It's a standard approach to how you work ICU in the industrialised world.

As to the Community Wealth Fund  it measures on a number of factors including access and outcomes. The article is simply the first googled that gave the breakdown but if you read it accessibility and outcomes are separate metrics. Your reading is weird.

Speaking of weird why are you trying to make it a competition? That's the most fucked up part of these conversations especially as I'm concerned about the state of healthcare in the UK. It's not a win if more people get fucked over in another country, it's disappointing and sad. I wasn't particularly concerned about the dismal performance of the US, I'm actually really interested in the high score for care process. My concern is over the UK's fall in the rankings over the past four years as a result of austerity.

You seem to be having an argument with nobody but yourself and having a fucked up approach to the stats to justify yourself to, well yourself. I'm not madly keen on the US healthcare system but I've not discussed it as it's not been relevant. Go on with your good self if that's your thing but I'm not there with you.

[Pat]

Speaking of weird why are you trying to make it a competition?

I'm not. That's entirely your reading. You literally posted a link to a document that compared healthcare systems among different countries, talked about how the UK had slipped in the rankings, and nobody else is allowed to mention other countries?

Since you're refusing to make an argument and are just engaging the standard internet telepathy/willful misreading/personal attack combo, I guess the discussion is over.

[Garry G]

Speaking of weird why are you trying to make it a competition?

I'm not. That's entirely your reading. You literally posted a link to a document that compared healthcare systems among different countries, talked about how the UK had slipped in the rankings, and nobody else is allowed to mention other countries?

Since you're refusing to make an argument and are just engaging the standard internet telepathy/willful misreading/personal attack combo, I guess the discussion is over.

An argument about what? You seem to want to have an argument about how your countries healthcare dick is bigger than mines when I wasn't discussing that. As I said that US website I linked to was the first that gave a breakdown of the UK's recent failures of it's NHS, I'm sorry it somehow hurt your feelings.

I'm not sure this discussion ever started as it seems to be one you're having without me. I answered your thing about ICU bed capacity, the same as the UK, not that you've acknowledged it, and tried to address your other issues.

The thing is that these seem to be your issues rather than mine. What do you want to discuss?

[Pat]

An argument about what? You seem to want to have an argument about how your countries healthcare dick is bigger than mines when I wasn't discussing that.

What the fucking hell.

That's entirely your sick fetish. Creep.

[Garry G]

An argument about what? You seem to want to have an argument about how your countries healthcare dick is bigger than mines when I wasn't discussing that.

What the fucking hell.

That's entirely your sick fetish. Creep.

Okay so you've gone down there. I'm thinking you tried to start some sort of argument but had no recourse when I didn't bite. I remember you trying to portray yourself as the voice of reason in a maelstrom of chaos. That'll be your sick fetish. Creep.

[Shasarak]

An argument about what? You seem to want to have an argument about how your countries healthcare dick is bigger than mines when I wasn't discussing that.

What the fucking hell.

That's entirely your sick fetish. Creep.

Okay so you've gone down there. I'm thinking you tried to start some sort of argument but had no recourse when I didn't bite. I remember you trying to portray yourself as the voice of reason in a maelstrom of chaos. That'll be your sick fetish. Creep.

Garry you do realise that type of speech is illegal in Scotland.

[Pat]

An argument about what? You seem to want to have an argument about how your countries healthcare dick is bigger than mines when I wasn't discussing that.

What the fucking hell.

That's entirely your sick fetish. Creep.

Okay so you've gone down there. I'm thinking you tried to start some sort of argument but had no recourse when I didn't bite. I remember you trying to portray yourself as the voice of reason in a maelstrom of chaos. That'll be your sick fetish. Creep.

No, you're the only one who went there. I made an argument, you said you were too tired to make one, dismissed rather than addressed my arguments, insulted me, and then started talking about dicks.

Creep. Stay away from children.

[Prairie Dragon]

I've been given a chance to get the Booster.  I am still trying to make the decision.  It's only been 8 months since I had the Pfizer series.  My healthcare provider doesn't think I need it because my bloodwork indicates my immune system is great...

It might have been before you got jabbed.

I believe so.  H1N1 hit me like a truck.  I was very sick.  Thought I was going to die, but didn't.  Thought about going to the hospital, but didn't.  I am afraid to get that sick again. Signed up for the booster.  Fear and science at play here, I admit.

[Garry G]

An argument about what? You seem to want to have an argument about how your countries healthcare dick is bigger than mines when I wasn't discussing that.

What the fucking hell.

That's entirely your sick fetish. Creep.

Okay so you've gone down there. I'm thinking you tried to start some sort of argument but had no recourse when I didn't bite. I remember you trying to portray yourself as the voice of reason in a maelstrom of chaos. That'll be your sick fetish. Creep.

No, you're the only one who went there. I made an argument, you said you were too tired to make one, dismissed rather than addressed my arguments, insulted me, and then started talking about dicks.

Creep. Stay away from children.

What argument did I make?

[Kiero]

You've really gone off the deep end haven't you? Did you look at the Commonwealth Fund Report? I was aghast at it because of our drop from the 2017 one but it's still pretty successful. You just seem to be havering the same shite repeatedly.

How you doing on laying out the conspiracy BTW? I noticed you've not explained it yet but I understand it's hard with all the post it notes and bits of string. I'm sure you're about ready to explain it.

I'm not the devotee of the cult of the NHS. Bet you were out clapping/kneeling/banging pots and pans when they were doing that shite last year. Spending on the NHS has tripled in the last 30 years, way ahead of inflation. Fuck off with that "Tory cuts" bollocks.

That the NHS wastes billions is a symptom of the way it is organised and if that largesse isn't making it's way to the front line, that's down to incompetent management.

Kiero appears to think just overweight people, old people, or people with preexisting conditions die from Covid or the Flu. Which in his book is OK in some manner, and all those people should just separate themselves from society for the rest of their lives or until they change those conditions, I assume because he categorizes them as sinners in some way.

It's, of course, an fucking completely insane world view. Even if it were accurate that's the only people who die, the idea that that's an acceptable result to his view of the world makes him a pretty horrible or crazy person.

95%+ of the people dying "with" covid have pre-existing conditions, things that would have killed them in previous years and indeed did before we invented a new method of classifying death.

Taking poor care of your health has consequences, as does getting old. Shit happens. None of that justifies locking up the healthy majority or any of this biosecurity theatre where we have to pretend seasonal bugs mean a total change in the way we live.

There's nothing "insane" about expecting adults to take responsibility for their own life choices. Unless you're a raving commie leftie who thinks the government is the parent of all citizens.

[Pat]

An argument about what? You seem to want to have an argument about how your countries healthcare dick is bigger than mines when I wasn't discussing that.

What the fucking hell.

That's entirely your sick fetish. Creep.

Okay so you've gone down there. I'm thinking you tried to start some sort of argument but had no recourse when I didn't bite. I remember you trying to portray yourself as the voice of reason in a maelstrom of chaos. That'll be your sick fetish. Creep.

No, you're the only one who went there. I made an argument, you said you were too tired to make one, dismissed rather than addressed my arguments, insulted me, and then started talking about dicks.

Creep. Stay away from children.

What argument did I make?

You didn't. That's the point.

[Pat]

You've really gone off the deep end haven't you? Did you look at the Commonwealth Fund Report? I was aghast at it because of our drop from the 2017 one but it's still pretty successful. You just seem to be havering the same shite repeatedly.

How you doing on laying out the conspiracy BTW? I noticed you've not explained it yet but I understand it's hard with all the post it notes and bits of string. I'm sure you're about ready to explain it.

I'm not the devotee of the cult of the NHS. Bet you were out clapping/kneeling/banging pots and pans when they were doing that shite last year. Spending on the NHS has tripled in the last 30 years, way ahead of inflation. Fuck off with that "Tory cuts" bollocks.

Sounds exactly like education in the US. All these sob stories about how teachers are underpaid and the terrible cuts to education, while spending has increased massively over the past 40 years.

[FelixGamingX1]

You've really gone off the deep end haven't you? Did you look at the Commonwealth Fund Report? I was aghast at it because of our drop from the 2017 one but it's still pretty successful. You just seem to be havering the same shite repeatedly.

How you doing on laying out the conspiracy BTW? I noticed you've not explained it yet but I understand it's hard with all the post it notes and bits of string. I'm sure you're about ready to explain it.

I'm not the devotee of the cult of the NHS. Bet you were out clapping/kneeling/banging pots and pans when they were doing that shite last year. Spending on the NHS has tripled in the last 30 years, way ahead of inflation. Fuck off with that "Tory cuts" bollocks.

Sounds exactly like education in the US. All these sob stories about how teachers are underpaid and the terrible cuts to education, while spending has increased massively over the past 40 years.

Oh god! Just to think the local teachers used to organize and demand more pay each year... This became so normalized. What happened to finding a new job? Perhaps the roots of our current problems are in a failing educational system. Affordable private schooling should be the new standard for a decent education.

[dkabq]

Kiero appears to think just overweight people, old people, or people with preexisting conditions die from Covid or the Flu. Which in his book is OK in some manner, and all those people should just separate themselves from society for the rest of their lives or until they change those conditions, I assume because he categorizes them as sinners in some way.

It's, of course, an fucking completely insane world view. Even if it were accurate that's the only people who die, the idea that that's an acceptable result to his view of the world makes him a pretty horrible or crazy person.

Perhaps an uncharitable interpretation? I see it more in line with the idea that those that are vulnerable have the onus to take the actions necessary to protect themselves (e.g., sequester, wear a proper mask, get the vaccine and all of the follow-on boosters.). I have a former colleague who's 90+ year-old father in-law did just that. Pretty much never left the house until he got vaccinated.

If you take the position that everyone has to take on the burden of protection for the vulnerable, then it begs the question of why weren't we doing that previously for the flu? Or or are the deaths of 30K to 60K a year "OK in some manner". Taking the point even further, why do "bubble boys" have to live in bubbles? Why should they have to "separate themselves from society for the rest of their lives". And does that mean we are all "a pretty horrible or crazy person" for holding those positions pre-covid?

Stepping back, it looks like ~40K deaths/yr is Ok (and enjoy living in a bubble kiddo), while ~400K deaths/yr is not Ok (and get a mask on that grannie-killing two year-old). Note that I am fine with that, assuming that a proper (and transparent) cost/benefit analyses are done to support the decisions made.

Regards.