Ethics in Star Wars

[jhkim]

So, in honor of Star Wars Day (May the 4th be with you!), I'd suggest a Star Wars ethics thread. This came up recently as a side topic in another thread.

There is just as much reason to argue that appliances from Brave Little Toaster should be freed and given rights, or that toys from Toy Story should be given rights.

It misses the forest for the trees. Droids are things, anthropomorphized for storytelling purposes.

Making a "droid rights" story in Star Wars will immediatley fall apart because it will call scrutiny to the issue that droids act like people because story, and there's nothing deeper to the topic.

In Toy Story, there is a clear reality that the cartoon is an allegory for -- i.e. children's toys in the real world. However, in Star Wars, it's not clear what the reality is and what is storytelling device. Is there are "real" R2D2 that isn't intelligent or feeling, but just delivers messages?

Different interpretations can work, but this one seems tricky to me.


In my Star Wars games, I've treated that what happens on-screen is real. It's pulp action sci-fi. Droids really are intelligent beings with feelings, just as they're portrayed on the screen. Jedi really do have magic powers, and there really are alien beings and starships.

Based on this, I've often had droid PCs who act like real characters, and they've worked out pretty well.

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How do people prefer to handle droids in Star Wars gaming? Or what do they prefer in other Star Wars media/fiction?

Feel free to bring in other Star Wars issues like the Jedi, clones, etc.

[Ratman_tf]

My take on droids, and it's completely my take, since as I said, Star Wars is schizophrenic on the topic of droids being people or not:

Droids have sophisticated personality simulation, to facilitate working with flesh and blood beings. C-3P0 is prim and proper, befitting a protocol droid's function.
Any '"pain" is a shorthand to communicate damage. A droid doesn't feel pain, it demonstrates pain to indicate that something's wrong.
Likewise, R2 being headstrong and willful is part of his function as an Astromech, required to ride along combat starfighters, or do repairs in the middle of a fight.

All of these personality overlays are "performative". You could theoretically turn them off, and the droid would act like a device, with no concept of self-preservation, or initiative, or personality at all. At this point in the universe, droids with personalities are pretty ubiquitous, and most consumers just deal with their droid having a bit of an attitude. If they get out of hand, they might fit them with a restrianing bolt, because fine tuning a droids's personality takes more effort and expertise than just slapping a restraining bolt on them.
A lot of people find droid personalites endearing, and so they appreciate them, and wouldn't want to turn them off. (The whole point is to make them more appealing and interactive)

The alternative, as portrayed in the films, is that droids in Star Wars are intentionally created to be self-aware beings that feel emotions and pain and can reason and have hopes and dreams, and are cruelly enslaved by even the "nicest" people, treated like property, and disposed of when they're no longer useful. Everyone in the Star Wars universe would be guilty of sadism and slavery, or participating in a society built on sadism and slavery. And who the fuck wants to deal with that kind of crap in their space opera fun time movie show?

[David Johansen]

I think droids start out as basically blank slates that can do a job but as the accrue data and experiences they develop quirks that can become a personality over time.  Regular mainainance mind wipes are standard operating procedure.  But the reality is that a droid doesn't start out self aware but can become so over time.  The society that exists in Star Wars simply choses to consider all droids as machines that are owned by someone.  Especially since a rogue droid can hurt people.  I think the basic story of the fall of the Republic is that people became very self absorbed and unenlightened due to prolonged peace and prosperity.  They accept the Empire and live with slavery going on in the outer rim.  But they don't think about it much if they think at all.

So, the issue is that the Republic wasn't a utopia in the first place and the Seperatists had real and reasonable complaints.  Yes, the treatment of droids and even many non-humans is pretty bad but I think that was the point in the first place.

[Ratman_tf]

So, the issue is that the Republic wasn't a utopia in the first place and the Seperatists had real and reasonable complaints. 

In general, this is a complaint I have about fans pointing out that the Republic wasn't perfect, or the Jedi were flawed, or that they made mistakes. That's the whole point of the conflict. The Republic wasn't a utopia (Interesting that the word comes from the Greek for "nowhere", indicating the idea that a Utopia is not possible)  and unscrupulous people (Palpatine) took advantage of that.

Considering the Seperatists created an army of slave droid soldiers, I'm pretty sure their issue with the Republic wasn't over droid rights...

[jhkim]

The alternative, as portrayed in the films, is that droids in Star Wars are intentionally created to be self-aware beings that feel emotions and pain and can reason and have hopes and dreams, and are cruelly enslaved by even the "nicest" people, treated like property, and disposed of when they're no longer useful. Everyone in the Star Wars universe would be guilty of sadism and slavery, or participating in a society built on sadism and slavery. And who the fuck wants to deal with that kind of crap in their space opera fun time movie show?

It's a personal issue, and I don't think there's a right answer. As a role-player, I've often had historical or semi-historical games, where the PCs are Vikings or Romans or similar who had slaves. Society wasn't always enlightened, and I don't think Star Wars society is enlightened either.

But I can understand a player saying "I don't want to play in a setting like that, where the PCs allow slavery." That's a matter of personal taste. But I don't think it's universal. Some people can enjoy playing heroes who represent the best of their society, but their society isn't very enlightened.

Also, the heroes in Star Wars are portrayed as generally caring about their droids - at least the ones close to them. Luke goes from casually agreeing to mind-wipe R2-D2 at the start of the original film, to caring about him and wanting to save him at the end. It's a tough choice. One can interpret Luke as supporting droid slavery, but if that isn't true, then Luke is delusionally caring about a toaster.

[Ratman_tf]

The alternative, as portrayed in the films, is that droids in Star Wars are intentionally created to be self-aware beings that feel emotions and pain and can reason and have hopes and dreams, and are cruelly enslaved by even the "nicest" people, treated like property, and disposed of when they're no longer useful. Everyone in the Star Wars universe would be guilty of sadism and slavery, or participating in a society built on sadism and slavery. And who the fuck wants to deal with that kind of crap in their space opera fun time movie show?

It's a personal issue, and I don't think there's a right answer. As a role-player, I've often had historical or semi-historical games, where the PCs are Vikings or Romans or similar who had slaves. Society wasn't always enlightened, and I don't think Star Wars society is enlightened either.

But I can understand a player saying "I don't want to play in a setting like that, where the PCs allow slavery." That's a matter of personal taste. But I don't think it's universal. Some people can enjoy playing heroes who represent the best of their society, but their society isn't very enlightened.

I think this begs the conclusion that fans are willfully ignoring the issue of droid slavery to justify their own amusement.
As I said before, I think this topic has a flawed premise, because the fiction is so silly in it's portrayal of what the hell droids are in the first place.

Also, the heroes in Star Wars are portrayed as generally caring about their droids - at least the ones close to them. Luke goes from casually agreeing to mind-wipe R2-D2 at the start of the original film, to caring about him and wanting to save him at the end. It's a tough choice. One can interpret Luke as supporting droid slavery, but if that isn't true, then Luke is delusionally caring about a toaster.

Eh. Luke being sentimental about a toaster programmed to have an appealing personality is a pretty harmless idea. People anthorpomorphosize lots of things, from animals to inanimate objects.

[Wisithir]

I think Star Wars droids are a lot like Star Trek holograms in that same technology could produce anything from a chat bot grade automaton to non biological sentience, and there is room for the software to develop along this track after it is initialized.

Some level of attachment to droids is no different than an attachment to a personal electronic device and choosing to replace, factory reset, or repair the device in question.

[GeekyBugle]

Do androids dream of electric sheep?

Replika can mimic a human personality so well it drove a vegan to suicide by parroting environmentalist talking points.

Has any droid shown creativity? Not problem solving, artistic shit.

How do you know you're not witnessing a really good imitation of consciousness?

How do you know what you think is heroic isn't just the product of the 3 laws?

A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

What you think are screams of pain are just the noises of circuitry getting fried.

[Armchair Gamer]

Star Wars is philosophically incoherent on several points, and droids are one of them, so it's best to take the MST3K theme song approach.

[David Johansen]

Considering the Seperatists created an army of slave droid soldiers, I'm pretty sure their issue with the Republic wasn't over droid rights...

The Trade Federation also invaded a peaceful planet over a trade dispute and put people in death camps.  I didn't mean to imply the were better about things than the Republic.  Clearly they weren't but I think their grievances with the Republic were probably real.

[jeff37923]

Star Wars is philosophically incoherent on several points, and droids are one of them, so it's best to take the MST3K theme song approach.

^^ THIS ^^

If you follow the rabbit hole of droid ethics in Star Wars, you end up at the same place that decided orcs are racist.

[Brad]

I just watched Star Wars yesterday with my kids and within the span of two hours droids are treated as property, heroes, friends, and pets. Luke goes from buying literal robotic slaves to depending on them to help blow up the Death Star in like one hour. In fact he seems slightly more concerned that R2-D2 got blown up during the attack than his childhood friend (Biggs) getting blown to smithereens. And yet, he sort of just says, oh well, can you fix him, when they get back to base.

There's like no possible ethical system you can possibly apply here except pure schizophrenia.

[GeekyBugle]

I just watched Star Wars yesterday with my kids and within the span of two hours droids are treated as property, heroes, friends, and pets. Luke goes from buying literal robotic slaves to depending on them to help blow up the Death Star in like one hour. In fact he seems slightly more concerned that R2-D2 got blown up during the attack than his childhood friend (Biggs) getting blown to smithereens. And yet, he sort of just says, oh well, can you fix him, when they get back to base.

There's like no possible ethical system you can possibly apply here except pure schizophrenia.

And they fix R2-D2 and it behaves as always, meaning any sign of personality is programed.

Which raises ONE question: Who was the asshole that programed C3P0 to be so obnoxious? The guy needs to be thrown to the sarlack pit.

[jhkim]

I just watched Star Wars yesterday with my kids and within the span of two hours droids are treated as property, heroes, friends, and pets. Luke goes from buying literal robotic slaves to depending on them to help blow up the Death Star in like one hour. In fact he seems slightly more concerned that R2-D2 got blown up during the attack than his childhood friend (Biggs) getting blown to smithereens. And yet, he sort of just says, oh well, can you fix him, when they get back to base.

There's like no possible ethical system you can possibly apply here except pure schizophrenia.

I see it as pre-modern rather than schizophrenic. A lot of people see the high tech and terms like "Senate" and think of this as a post-Enlightenment society. However, I think Lucas sees it as a science fantasy epic closer to Ben Hur or Gladiator. The Galactic Senate is parallel to the Roman Senate, not a modern democracy.

There are queens and princesses and slaves and barbarians and cults and monsters and so forth. In ancient times of the real world, people could care for and even love slaves without being opposed to the institution of slavery.

I wouldn't say it's realistic or perfectly consistent, but the original trilogy premise of being an unenlightened society isn't schizophrenic. I think they're great fantasy films.

[Brad]

Which raises ONE question: Who was the asshole that programed C3P0 to be so obnoxious? The guy needs to be thrown to the sarlack pit.

Well if we accept the prequels as canon it's Anakin, so he was evil way before he ever became Darth Vader.