Enjoy.

[Zak S]

I'd have a different approach to dealing with trolls or piss-takers on forums.

Here's a true story:

Once upon a time there was a major RPG blogger. Not me. He was a harmless kitty cat to everyone basically.

He ran a kickstarter, made more money than anyone at that time thought was possible, then his personal life went haywire and he couldn't finish. His claim (I don't know if it's true but what I've seen since suggests it is) that his business partner convinced him to just deliver late instead of give the money back.

People trolled the living shit out of him--and he was an emotionally fragile person. It's also fair to say that what they said probably affected his future business prospects in the industry quite a lot. Part of it was his fault (he was fragile) but a lot of it was theirs.

The guy was fucked. He had no problem admitting how unstable he was and how fucked all this was for him.

Fast forward to years later:

A dude starts a thread about how much he misses said RPG blogger. Others agree.

It also emerges that the same dude was one of the people who trolled said RPG blogger.

They even go beyond that and admit they were people who themselves spread specific misinformation about them.

The Dude: "He deserved it. He thinks his kind of game is better than everyone else's"

Zak: "Did he ever say that?"

Dude: "Nah but you could just tell"

Zak: "How?"

Dude: "His tone."

Literally this dude was part of a hate campaign that drove someone to the edge of suicide on vibes and spread bullshit about them that people all over RPG land believe to this day. And also didn't seem to have even the slightest idea that these consequences:

-Were real
or
-Were their fault.

Since the court process began I've seen lots of conversations with trolls where basically the same thing happens: to them, they're just being a merry prankster on the internet (and often, they'll admit, explicitly because their real life sucks). They don't want to think about the victim --until they are one (that happens a surprising number of times, the hatemobber gets recognized for something then gets hatemobbed and is like "Oh wait, unfair, uncool")

It's like the people with the pitchforks being mad that Frankenstein isn't around anymore.

I'm not saying that anyone in the hatemob will miss me specifically, but I am saying that the normal way of doing things and the standard way of dealing with harassers online doesn't work. It enables them and distances them from the damage they do and pretty much none of them are thoughtful enough to see it.

They just wanna post the next snarky thing-- and making them like you doesn't stop them.

[Zak S]

No points?  The point of talking is to make a point.  Now that doesn't mean that we have to keep SCORE.  But that's analogies - sometimes they work to a point and sometimes you have to belabor them far more than makes sense. 

So the point I came here to make; the point I BELIEVE I have made with your assistance OVER AND OVER again is that you're an asshole. 

You spamming a series of quotes without attribution and without clarity of what you THINK you're saying isn't winning over any 'neutral observers'.  Your ongoing melt-down and inability to disengage isn't showing you to be a 'nice chill guy who can relax'. 

My goal is not to prove I am this or that kind of guy, it's to allow people the easiest access possible to the fact you're dishonest and do not take responsibility for the claims you make online. Here is proof. If you would, you'd simply admit that your claim below is inaccurate and apologize:

\
Your statement (as quoted) appears to be intended to say that Mike recommends that you speak with a lawyer and then signs the papers.

Here's the exact quote from me, precisely:

Mike said he "recommended" you not sign them unless you've talked to a lawyer and understand it, etc. (The scope is also limited to affidavits and contracts not "any legal papers")

That doesn't match what you said at all.

Mike's quote ( "...I do not recommend anyone sign any affadavit [sic] or contract without first consulting legal representation to understand the full scope of what is written and any ramifications." ) also doesn't match what Tubesock said, which was (unmodified quote)

Mike Evans, has even told people in the comments NOT to sign any legal papers offered by Zak.

Point fully addressed.

You both should each talk to a therapist about your desire to lie and distort information on the internet and, if you understand the risks, undergo treatment.

No further claim from either of you can be trusted since you just had what you said disproved in the thread in black-and-white and aren't addressing it.  Since it's such a clear demonstration, this post demonstrating your dishonesty should be a helpful reference point in any further conversation where you attempt to present your ideas as relevant.

[Rob Necronomicon]

I'd have a different approach to dealing with trolls or pisstakers on forums. I always think it's better to go in slightly cooler and then ramp it up to 'hot' - Basically matching them only when they escalate the argument. That said it doesn't always as planned. And some people are not worth speaking to at all...

Long term, the way most ("reasonable") people talk on the RPG internet hasn't worked. Even when it sounds reasonable. Large-scale problems that trolls created haven't gotten better, problems haven't gotten solved. Many things got worse.

The way I handled things made some things better that I was concerned about in the neighborhood I was in for a few years--at least until my ex lost her grip on reality.

Whether it made them better or not, you still have to do the right thing even when it's unpopular.

If pointing out the bull is full of bullshit is poking the bull then I don't have an option where the bull doesn't get poked.

That's the main thing... If you can get things 'settled' that you were most concerned about. Makes perfect sense...

Forums are an odd animal, however. Everyone talks and takes s bit of shit especially here. I'd call that 'banter'... But I suppose it depends on what's being said so I'm keeping that a bit broad.

Places like RPG.net to me seem like the 'wild west' to me. Okay, here me out... Because there you can say some pretty much any nefarious shit without having to back it up. Then, all the other muppets go along with it - No fact checking whatsoever! It's a place deeply ruled by their own internal prejudices. It's also no place for cynics like me... The same shit goes on with FB groups (real names or not!).

But the bullet point list for communication you set out or wished for, just can't work with such a medium, IMO. It will probably only serve as fuel to the fire (as I stated earlier) but it might also put people off trying to communicate with you. Sure, I get that you don't want to talk to certain people (probably myself included). But some others might be a bit put off, IMO. Because at the same time it doesn't make you seem very approachable. Does that make sense?

[Rob Necronomicon]

I'd have a different approach to dealing with trolls or piss-takers on forums.

Here's a true story:

Once upon a time there was a major RPG blogger. Not me. He was a harmless kitty cat to everyone basically.

He ran a kickstarter, made more money than anyone at that time thought was possible, then his personal life went haywire and he couldn't finish. His claim (I don't know if it's true but what I've seen since suggests it is) that his business partner convinced him to just deliver late instead of give the money back.

People trolled the living shit out of him--and he was an emotionally fragile person. It's also fair to say that what they said probably affected his future business prospects in the industry quite a lot. Part of it was his fault (he was fragile) but a lot of it was theirs.

The guy was fucked. He had no problem admitting how unstable he was and how fucked all this was for him.

Fast forward to years later:

A dude starts a thread about how much he misses said RPG blogger. Others agree.

It also emerges that the same dude was one of the people who trolled said RPG blogger.

They even go beyond that and admit they were people who themselves spread specific misinformation about them.

The Dude: "He deserved it. He thinks his kind of game is better than everyone else's"

Zak: "Did he ever say that?"

Dude: "Nah but you could just tell"

Zak: "How?"

Dude: "His tone."

Literally this dude was part of a hate campaign that drove someone to the edge of suicide on vibes and spread bullshit about them that people all over RPG land believe to this day. And also didn't seem to have even the slightest idea that these consequences:

-Were real
or
-Were their fault.

Since the court process began I've seen lots of conversations with trolls where basically the same thing happens: to them, they're just being a merry prankster on the internet (and often, they'll admit, explicitly because their real life sucks). They don't want to think about the victim --until they are one (that happens a surprising number of times, the hatemobber gets recognized for something then gets hatemobbed and is like "Oh wait, unfair, uncool")

It's like the people with the pitchforks being mad that Frankenstein isn't around anymore.

I'm not saying that anyone in the hatemob will miss me specifically, but I am saying that the normal way of doing things and the standard way of dealing with harassers online doesn't work. It enables them and distances them from the damage they do and pretty much none of them are thoughtful enough to see it.

They just wanna post the next snarky thing-- and making them like you doesn't stop them.

I'm reading this... Will reply.

[Zak S]

Forums are an odd animal, however. Everyone talks and takes s bit of shit especially here. I'd call that 'banter'...

Sure but it's been repeatedly proven that the  kind of "banter" here (also: "venting" and "talking shit" and "joking" and "hyperbole") has consistently tipped over into false claims people actually believe and act on. Consistently, for years. And its made the RPG community a place where conversations about anything important are consistently unproductive and circular. And, it's provable that you can banter and vent and joke to the degree people need to do that while still drawing the line at defamation or talking shit you can't back up. People do it in the real world all day long.

It's just a little more work online and people don't wanna. They privilege their right to be entertained over innocent randos right to not have their lives destroyed.

Because there you can say some pretty much any nefarious shit without having to back it up.

I don't see the difference.

But the bullet point list for communication you set out or wished for, just can't work with such a medium, IMO.

It works perfectly well in every forum I've ever seen it used in.

It also works fine at most dinner tables and real life social spaces--where if you lie about someone at the table everyone looks at you and asks for proof.

but it might also put people off trying to communicate with you. Sure, I get that you don't want to talk to certain people (probably myself included). But some others might be a bit put off, IMO. Because at the same time it doesn't make you seem very approachable. Does that make sense?

No it makes no sense because

People put off by the idea of taking responsibility for wild accusations they make are not people I want on my side.

You keep trying to say "trolls won't like you if you say trolling is bad". Duh.

Also, this never comes up for me except on the RPG internet. People go to bars, go to college, go to restaurants, have parties and manage to not lie about people, unchecked, right to their face all the time.

The only reason to put up with that is if you want to manipulate shitty people into liking you and the shitty people are used to it and have learned to like it.

[HappyDaze]

I already covered it upthread. Your continued denials of understanding this are continued lies.

I don't know which thing you're referring to, you've made several assertions and I responded.

The good faith resolution to this would be to post the sentence I said that you think contains a lie.

Assuming that when I say I don't know I am secretly lying is assuming bad faith (ie without having proven it) and assuming bad faith is a bad faith act.

But anyone who understands the concept knew that, since you already explicitly refused to follow good faith rules-- twice.

You don't have to follow them, but it's important for anyone reading to know you can't be trusted.

I go off to watch a TV show and...

You're still lying.

Your good faith bullshit is just that since you dint follow it yourself.

Your full of lies today...and quite likely this is your norm.

[GeekyBugle]

Is he still sperging out "post 518" over and over again?

[Rob Necronomicon]

Forums are an odd animal, however. Everyone talks and takes s bit of shit especially here. I'd call that 'banter'...

Sure but it's been repeatedly proven that the  kind of "banter" here (also: "venting" and "talking shit" and "joking" and "hyperbole") has consistently tipped over into false claims people actually believe and act on. Consistently, for years. And its made the RPG community a place where conversations about anything important are consistently unproductive and circular. And, it's provable that you can banter and vent and joke to the degree people need to do that while still drawing the line at defamation or talking shit you can't back up. People do it in the real world all day long.

It's just a little more work online and people don't wanna. They privilege their right to be entertained over innocent randos right to not have their lives destroyed.

Because there you can say some pretty much any nefarious shit without having to back it up.

I don't see the difference.

But the bullet point list for communication you set out or wished for, just can't work with such a medium, IMO.

It works perfectly well in every forum I've ever seen it used in.

It also works fine at most dinner tables and real life social spaces--where if you lie about someone at the table everyone looks at you and asks for proof.

but it might also put people off trying to communicate with you. Sure, I get that you don't want to talk to certain people (probably myself included). But some others might be a bit put off, IMO. Because at the same time it doesn't make you seem very approachable. Does that make sense?

No it makes no sense because

People put off by the idea of taking responsibility for wild accusations they make are not people I want on my side.

You keep trying to say "trolls won't like you if you say trolling is bad". Duh.

Also, this never comes up for me except on the RPG internet. People go to bars, go to college, go to restaurants, have parties and manage to not lie about people, unchecked, right to their face all the time.

The only reason to put up with that is if you want to manipulate shitty people into liking you and the shitty people are used to it and have learned to like it.

I had a big lengthy reply for the other post but you've posted this. So firstly re. your previous post. Yes, I agree... I see what you're saying... Well, purely from an ethical point of view. No one should tell outright lies about someone. If someone is deliberately spreading false information about people, that could potentially do 'real' harm then that's a fucking big problem (or using blatant and constant cyberbullying/Harassment/threatening).

1) Re. Banter... Well, it depends. I think you're taking 'banter' too seriously. Now, if that said 'banter' starts to go into the realms of severe bullying, spreading misinformation, etc. Then it's no longer just banter it's escalated to something else.

2) Again, that would depend on what information is being passed along. In your situation, you don't even have a voice on RPG.net or on some of those FB groups. Here at least, you have the ability to defend yourself. Whether you are doing it successfully or not will be judged by the readers.

3) I disagree with the particular formality you used for the bullet points (in the way you did). I think they are unworkable in their current state in regard to this forum. I don't think they will help you trying to have a decent convo with someone. YMMV.

4) If only that were true. Most people just talk out of their arse in person and online. Most of the time I don't bother with proof. Unless they are making a very specific claim that actually could have an effect. Vax vs Anti-vax, etc.

5) I think there has been a miscommunication here. I didn't say "trolls won't like you". That would be irrelevant, anyway, surely? Who cares?

What I was saying specifically is that if you act in a hostile manner (or a perceived one by the trolls) you just end up 'provoking' the trolls. And the people I'm talking about being "put off" by your passive-aggressive tone may not encompass everyone which you wish to alienate. Of course, that's not really quantifiable as it's speculation one way or the other. We can't really say for sure what others are thinking.

6) Again, it's not necessary to be liked per se or sucking up to anyone. If someone is perceived as being unlikable then it will always be more of an uphill battle. This is why I'd personally go the Venger route. But that's just me.

[Tubesock Army]

Is he still sperging out "post 518" over and over again?

Yep.

[Tubesock Army]

Hey, Zak, you need to offers some proof of these allegations against your fellow porn actor James Deen:
https://medium.com/@zaksmith_/james-deen-cookie-monster-c05490730609

[Zak S]

Hey, Zak, you need to offers some proof of these allegations against your fellow porn actor James Deen:
https://medium.com/@zaksmith_/james-deen-cookie-monster-c05490730609

I am not alleging he did something that was recorded on the internet.

He physically attacked me (irl, not on the internet) and--before I published the article--I did my research, discovered specific corroborating evidence and went through a fact-checker at a major national publication.

[Zak S]

[
Your good faith bullshit is just that since you dint follow it yourself.

Your full of lies today...and quite likely this is your norm.

Incorrect.

So far as I know we didn't interact at all, then you spread misinformation here:

https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/enjoy/540/

Doing what I'm morally obliged to do, I fact-checked you on that page.

You didn't apologize or take effective steps to undo the harm you did--at that point my obligation to play fair with you ended.

Even then you made requests for information and twice I offered you an agreement that I'd play fair with you if you did the same. You refused twice.

I did exactly what I tell other people they should do.

[GeekyBugle]

Hey, Zak, you need to offers some proof of these allegations against your fellow porn actor James Deen:
https://medium.com/@zaksmith_/james-deen-cookie-monster-c05490730609

I am not alleging he did something that was recorded on the internet.

That's a fine double standard you have there asshole.

People accused you of stuff and you demand anyone saying you were to provide proof, yet you engage in spreading accusations without evidence.

[Zak S]

Hey, Zak, you need to offers some proof of these allegations against your fellow porn actor James Deen:
https://medium.com/@zaksmith_/james-deen-cookie-monster-c05490730609

I am not alleging he did something that was recorded on the internet.

That's a fine double standard you have there asshole.

People accused you of stuff and you demand anyone saying you were to provide proof, yet you engage in spreading accusations without evidence.

That's not a double standard:

People accusing me went through none of the steps I took before accusing Deen.

I am not saying "dont' accuse" I am saying "don't accuse without doing the work".

For just one example: I am available to answer any questions  I can answer regarding the accusations and I am willing to testify to my claims in court.

In addition, if called upon to testify if Deen ever did sue I am happy to--under penalty of perjury--say that if he manages to subpoena the casino's security tape for that evening it will corroborate my story.

That is to say: I am willing to be responsible for my statements and suffer real material consequences if they are not true.

You're not.

[Tubesock Army]

Hey, Zak, you need to offers some proof of these allegations against your fellow porn actor James Deen:
https://medium.com/@zaksmith_/james-deen-cookie-monster-c05490730609

I am not alleging he did something that was recorded on the internet.

He physically attacked me (irl, not on the internet) and--before I published the article--I did my research, discovered specific corroborating evidence and went through a fact-checker at a major national publication.

A publication who ultimately decided not to run the story, Meaning they wouldn't go to press with whatever you provided.