Enjoy.

[Zak S]

I'm not. I actually made and backed up my own claims, a fact you keep glossing over because it doesn't fit your narrative. Google Zak S., everyone, it'll tell you all you need to know.

I did as you suggested and Googled Zak S. There's a lot there, and none of it paints him in a positive light.

That's 100% inaccurate. It's child's play to find, to pick a random example, my ex's former friends responding to Mandy's bullshit and they certainly paint me in a positive light.

You're not telling the truth.

One statement I found indicated that Zak made < 30k in 2019 and almost nothing in 2020. Is that true Zak?

Of course. That's why I can sue: I have massive damages.

Luckily my friends who actually knew my ex (and, many of them, the RPG sene) all realize this is bullshit and so have helped pay for the lawsuits.

Ok, let me clarify. Nothing that showed up on the first two pages painted you in a positive light.

So as to show your damages, what was your 2018 income? What about in 2021?

2018 was much more, my paintings are very expensive so I don't have to sell many to reach 30k.

As for 2021 my earnings were also very small, as are my 2022 earnings.

If you want me to do the work to get more precise detail than that you're going to have to start playing fair. So far you aren't and you're just basically acting within the (trolly) social norms on this site.

[sombodystolemyname]

I googled him as well and the second entry was https://www.fredericksfreisergallery.com/artists/zak-smith.  Looked pretty positive to me.  So saying that none of it paints him in a positive light doesn't seen right.

[HappyDaze]

I'm not. I actually made and backed up my own claims, a fact you keep glossing over because it doesn't fit your narrative. Google Zak S., everyone, it'll tell you all you need to know.

I did as you suggested and Googled Zak S. There's a lot there, and none of it paints him in a positive light.

That's 100% inaccurate. It's child's play to find, to pick a random example, my ex's former friends responding to Mandy's bullshit and they certainly paint me in a positive light.

You're not telling the truth.

One statement I found indicated that Zak made < 30k in 2019 and almost nothing in 2020. Is that true Zak?

Of course. That's why I can sue: I have massive damages.

Luckily my friends who actually knew my ex (and, many of them, the RPG sene) all realize this is bullshit and so have helped pay for the lawsuits.

Ok, let me clarify. Nothing that showed up on the first two pages painted you in a positive light.

So as to show your damages, what was your 2018 income? What about in 2021?

2018 was much more, my paintings are very expensive so I don't have to sell many to reach 30k.

As for 2021 my earnings were also very small, as are my 2022 earnings.

If you want me to do the work to get more precise detail than that you're going to have to start playing fair. So far you aren't and you're just basically acting within the (trolly) social norms on this site.

I was honestly trying to evaluate how much all of this has cost you. So in that light, from 2018 to 2019, you lost what percentage of your income? Also, did you put out the same amount of product/labor (paintings, games, whatever else you do for income) in those two years?

[Zak S]

I was honestly trying to evaluate how much all of this has cost you.

Basically everything.

So in that light, from 2018 to 2019, you lost what percentage of your income? Also, did you put out the same amount of product/labor (paintings, games, whatever else you do for income) in those two years?

Already addressed:

If you want me to do the work to get more precise detail than that you're going to have to start playing fair. So far you aren't and you're just basically acting within the (trolly) social norms on this site.

[HappyDaze]

I was honestly trying to evaluate how much all of this has cost you.

Basically everything.

So in that light, from 2018 to 2019, you lost what percentage of your income? Also, did you put out the same amount of product/labor (paintings, games, whatever else you do for income) in those two years?

Already addressed:

If you want me to do the work to get more precise detail than that you're going to have to start playing fair. So far you aren't and you're just basically acting within the (trolly) social norms on this site.

What would establish to you that I am playing fair for the purposes of this discussion?

[Zak S]

I was honestly trying to evaluate how much all of this has cost you.

Basically everything.

So in that light, from 2018 to 2019, you lost what percentage of your income? Also, did you put out the same amount of product/labor (paintings, games, whatever else you do for income) in those two years?

Already addressed:

If you want me to do the work to get more precise detail than that you're going to have to start playing fair. So far you aren't and you're just basically acting within the (trolly) social norms on this site.

What would establish to you that I am playing fair for the purposes of this discussion?

There are some basic ground rules to grown-up conversations in a context where the truth matters, and I will take the trouble to list them and try to phrase them just right if you demonstrate that you'd give a shit if I did and not just waste time.

Here's a way to do that:

Somebodystolemyname above just countered one of your points above.

A show of good faith and playing fair would be to respond to that instead of ignore it:

If you concede the point, apologize for spreading misinformation and erase your previous claim or leave a note on the post pointing out it wasn't true.

If you don't concede, then give them a rational reason why you don't accept it.

[HappyDaze]

I googled him as well and the second entry was https://www.fredericksfreisergallery.com/artists/zak-smith.  Looked pretty positive to me.  So saying that none of it paints him in a positive light doesn't seen right.

My phone showed 5 entries per page, and that shows up on page 3 as the 11th entry. I didn't browse to page 3.

[Zak S]

I was honestly trying to evaluate how much all of this has cost you.

Basically everything.

So in that light, from 2018 to 2019, you lost what percentage of your income? Also, did you put out the same amount of product/labor (paintings, games, whatever else you do for income) in those two years?

Already addressed:

If you want me to do the work to get more precise detail than that you're going to have to start playing fair. So far you aren't and you're just basically acting within the (trolly) social norms on this site.

What would establish to you that I am playing fair for the purposes of this discussion?

1. Don't post things you don't believe to be true.
2. When you make a mistake or present misinformation, apologize and go back and change the original post (and any other thing you have control over) to reflect the fact you now accept it's not true. Don't undermine the fix/apology later and don't ever repeat the misinformation.
3. Hold everyone to the same standards, so: if a person you disagree with earns a critique from you, make the same critique of those agreeing with you if they've done the same thing--in the same venue, and also anyone you're neutral, undecided, etc about.
4. Answer questions when asked. If there's some desperate reason you can't answer, say what that is. If you have to leave the conversation, answer the question next time you are able.
5. Don't commit logical fallacies (including the burden of proof fallacy).
6. Apologize if you accidentally or impulsively break a rule and take all steps to fix any damage.
7. In general, interact as if getting to the truth as efficiently as possible is more important than being entertained by posting on an RPG website
8. No first strike personal attacks.

EDIT:
(9. And, as above, respond to points made in response to you, treat them as questions about the why you think your claim is valid considering the  point presented.)

[HappyDaze]

I was honestly trying to evaluate how much all of this has cost you.

Basically everything.

So in that light, from 2018 to 2019, you lost what percentage of your income? Also, did you put out the same amount of product/labor (paintings, games, whatever else you do for income) in those two years?

Already addressed:

If you want me to do the work to get more precise detail than that you're going to have to start playing fair. So far you aren't and you're just basically acting within the (trolly) social norms on this site.

What would establish to you that I am playing fair for the purposes of this discussion?

1. Don't post things you don't believe to be true.
2. When you make a mistake or present misinformation, apologize and go back and change the original post (and any other thing you have control over) to reflect the fact you now accept it's not true. Don't undermine the fix/apology later and don't ever repeat the misinformation.
3. Hold everyone to the same standards, so: if a person you disagree with earns a critique from you, make the same critique of those agreeing with you if they've done the same thing--in the same venue, and also anyone you're neutral, undecided, etc about.
4. Answer questions when asked. If there's some desperate reason you can't answer, say what that is. If you have to leave the conversation, answer the question next time you are able.
5. Don't commit logical fallacies (including the burden of proof fallacy).
6. Apologize if you accidentally or impulsively break a rule and take all steps to fix any damage.
7. In general, interact as if getting to the truth as efficiently as possible is more important than being entertained by posting on an RPG website
8. No first strike personal attacks.

EDIT:
(9. And, as above, respond to points made in response to you, treat them as questions about the why you think your claim is valid considering the  point presented.)

I think you're expecting overly formalized communication on what is a very informal channel. You've obviously read the room, but you either can't or won't accept what you've found here.

[Zak S]

I think you're expecting overly formalized communication on what is a very informal channel.

I don't expect shit off this list. I expect you to not play fair as I expect the other trolls on the site to not play fair.

Formality is less important than the fairness that the form enables.

If there's another way to be fair--to make sure that people are held accountable for their claims and don't do unnecessary harm in pursuing the truth, I am open to hearing your suggestions.

Also, if there's some genuine reason any of this is bad (beyond "Me like troll. Troll funny. Funny more important than true lol") nobody's been able to articulate it.

Basically the obvious problem is the is/ought fallacy. People ought to be responsible for what they say. The social norm here is they are not. Nobody has ever said why that's good, only that the anonymity of the internet makes it common and easy.

[Tubesock Army]

Actually, I'm pretty confident that most people will...

...assuming that you speak authoritatively on behalf of other people is just further evidence of your extreme narcissism.

Q.E.D.

Swing and a miss, lame-o.

My being "fairly confident" is not the same as your using the assumptive "we" multiple times on behalf of other people, none of whom have expressed agreement or a desire to be included, and profess that they understand/don't understand something.

It's hilarious how reflexively dishonest you are.

[Zak S]

My being "fairly confident" is not the same as your using the assumptive "we" multiple times on behalf of other people, none of whom have expressed agreement or a desire to be included, and profess that they understand/don't understand something.

Seems like a fine distinction that reasonable people might disagree about.

So instead let's use something cut and dried:

You're dishonest, as proven here

\
Your statement (as quoted) appears to be intended to say that Mike recommends that you speak with a lawyer and then signs the papers.

Here's the exact quote from me, precisely:

Mike said he "recommended" you not sign them unless you've talked to a lawyer and understand it, etc. (The scope is also limited to affidavits and contracts not "any legal papers")

That doesn't match what you said at all.

Mike's quote ( "...I do not recommend anyone sign any affadavit [sic] or contract without first consulting legal representation to understand the full scope of what is written and any ramifications." ) also doesn't match what Tubesock said, which was (unmodified quote)

Mike Evans, has even told people in the comments NOT to sign any legal papers offered by Zak.

Point fully addressed.

You both should each talk to a therapist about your desire to lie and distort information on the internet and, if you understand the risks, undergo treatment.

No further claim from either of you can be trusted since you just had what you said disproved in the thread in black-and-white and aren't addressing it.  Since it's such a clear demonstration, this post demonstrating your dishonesty should be a helpful reference point in any further conversation where you attempt to present your ideas as relevant.

[HappyDaze]

I think you're expecting overly formalized communication on what is a very informal channel.

I don't expect shit off this list. I expect you to not play fair as I expect the other trolls on the site to not play fair.

Formality is less important than the fairness that the form enables.

If there's another way to be fair--to make sure that people are held accountable for their claims and don't do unnecessary harm in pursuing the truth, I am open to hearing your suggestions.

Also, if there's some genuine reason any of this is bad (beyond "Me like troll. Troll funny. Funny more important than true lol") nobody's been able to articulate it.

Basically the obvious problem is the is/ought fallacy. People ought to be responsible for what they say. The social norm here is they are not. Nobody has ever said why that's good, only that the anonymity of the internet makes it common and easy.

You say this forum ought to be something other than what it is and that people here ought to be responsiblefor what they post. Why do you believe it ought to be that way?

[Zak S]

I think you're expecting overly formalized communication on what is a very informal channel.

I don't expect shit off this list. I expect you to not play fair as I expect the other trolls on the site to not play fair.

Formality is less important than the fairness that the form enables.

If there's another way to be fair--to make sure that people are held accountable for their claims and don't do unnecessary harm in pursuing the truth, I am open to hearing your suggestions.

Also, if there's some genuine reason any of this is bad (beyond "Me like troll. Troll funny. Funny more important than true lol") nobody's been able to articulate it.

Basically the obvious problem is the is/ought fallacy. People ought to be responsible for what they say. The social norm here is they are not. Nobody has ever said why that's good, only that the anonymity of the internet makes it common and easy.

You say this forum ought to be something other than what it is and that people here ought to be responsiblefor what they post. Why do you believe it ought to be that way?

Because if they're not it's much easier to do harm to innocent people by spreading misinformation, and there's no significant downside.

(Incidentally, avoiding this "harm" also includes making RPG conversations more useful. It's harder to have a circular, tedious RPG conversation when peoples' ability to lie is curtailed.)

But also, this critique is by no means limited to this particular RPG forum.


EDIT:
It's also perhaps worth pointing out that I'm not primarily here for the purpose of trying to get that to change (it's always been hopeless) it's simply to deal with an unfortunate consequence of the lack of accountability here, which is: bad actors who smear people are here and are not reliably treated like what they are or tagged as that.

Obviously the prevailing norms here make that difficult (thus all the repetition) but it's a moral obligation. Fact-checking is good.

[sombodystolemyname]

I googled him as well and the second entry was https://www.fredericksfreisergallery.com/artists/zak-smith.  Looked pretty positive to me.  So saying that none of it paints him in a positive light doesn't seen right.

My phone showed 5 entries per page, and that shows up on page 3 as the 11th entry. I didn't browse to page 3.

If you google Zak Smith you will get the same results as I did I believe.