"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day

[selfdeleteduser00001]

"Papism" perhaps had it coming, but not the people of England (the deaths resulting from the Reformation were monstrous, as the later Protestant canonization of some of the more notable victims attests). And yes, some things were looted (either to the crown or to the commoners), but the histories are filled with sheer iconoclastic destruction as well. Especially when it came to the libraries; John Leland's The Laborious Journey is quite clear on how manuscripts were more often than not burned or, even worse, used as toilet paper (and Leland had literally no reason to lie, as his task was to survey and index the monastic library holdings for the king).

Let's not forget all the Protestants also burned by the state during the English Reformation, both by Mary during her Counter-Reformation, but also under Henry and Elizabeth.

But it's alright, it's over now, we Europeans learnt tolerance from these brutal years of religious murder and persecution. Indeed the U.S.A. was founded by us on that basis.

[Géza Echs]

Let's not forget all the Protestants also burned by the state during the English Reformation, both by Mary during her Counter-Reformation, but also under Henry and Elizabeth.

It should be made clear, admittedly, that when I call out one set of bad acts I am not by necessity eliding any other set or sets of bad acts.

But it's alright, it's over now, we Europeans learnt tolerance from these brutal years of religious murder and persecution. Indeed the U.S.A. was founded by us on that basis.

I can't speak to European culture or their influence on the US, being a Canadian.

[GameDaddy]

I can't speak to whether or not is was "one of the least bloody", but it certainly was bloody -- and tragically so. It may have been worse elsewhere, of course, but that doesn't stop it from being bad unto itself. It developed into "policies of tacit toleration" eventually, yes, but that doesn't strike the violence of the dissolution or the initial suppression of Catholicism from the record.

Actually, it went on for quite some time...

Castile De San Marcos, St. Augustine, Florida 2005


Looking south toward the heart of St. Augustine




In this last image, you are on the west battlement looking west towards the Everglades inland swamps. The ditch on the left marks the old northern wall of the City of St. Augustine. Just across the street, outside of the wall is the Heugenot Cemetary. Protestants weren't even allowed to be buried inside the city limits. Right up until the British occupied St. Augustine in 1763 this was the official policy.

In the early 1700's the Spanish massacred a shipload of unarmed French Heugenots (almost 250), just a couple miles from Fort Matanzas, which is located on the Matanzas River (Actually the Matanzas is a channel that leads up to St. Augustine) about 20 miles south from where this picture was taken. In Spanish, Matanzas tranlates into english as "Killing".

http://www.nps.gov/foma/index.htm

The only reason it wasn't that bloody in England, is because the Catholics, for the most part left the country.

[Géza Echs]

The only reason it wasn't that bloody in England, is because the Catholics, for the most part left the country.

Don't look at me, man. I grew up in a town where I had to suffer through the Orange Day Parade -- and almost the entire city showing up for it -- every single year.

From what I know of the history in the UK, however, there weren't exactly any good guys, and the fact that Catholics did bad acts when they were in power doesn't elide the fact that the Protestants were guilty themselves when they held the reins. Hell, take the Orange Day example above -- yes, let's continue to celebrate a victory over the Catholics who had the temerity to want to be able to practice their faith, hold public office, and educate their children.

[GameDaddy]

Don't look at me, man. I grew up in a town where I had to suffer through the Orange Day Parade...

No worries, that wasn't on my agenda.

Sir Frances Drake sacked and burned St. Augustine in 1568. St. Augustine was raided, sacked and burned more than eleven times from then until 1727 when the Castile De San Marcos was built. The forts sturdy walls and impressive guns protected the city thereafter. It has never been captured, or St. Augustine looted, since the castle was built.

The British besieged St. Augustine in 1742 during the war of Jenkin's Ear, and failed to take the city, withdrawing after the Seminoles officially decided to support the Spanish and subsequently ambushed British reinforcements that were traveling overland from Charlestown, South Carolina. Even the Naval Blockade failed as the Spanish were able to sneak in supply boats up the Matanzas channel by night bringing food and fresh powder to the Castile De San Marco.

The unique construction of the walls, made of coquina coral absorbed the impact of the british cannon balls causing the cannon balls to stick into the walls, or bounce off and fall into the moat. The Spanish would dig the shot out of the wall, or collect the cannonballs at the base of the fort and shoot them back at the Royal Navy.

During that siege, 3,000 of St. Augustine's citizens took shelter in the fort. The courtyard only looks big enough to hold 500 or so, so it was pretty cramped quarters there for a couple of months.

[thedungeondelver]

In this last image, you are on the west battlement looking west towards the Everglades.

No you're not; I'm from Florida (we spent Mother's Day at St. Augustine - my wife loves it up there, I like going to the winery) and if you look west from Castillo de San Marcos you are looking at/towards Watson Island and the Bayard Conservation Area.

The Everglades are 400mi. south (give or take).  Technically the Everglades headwaters start in southern Orange County.

Just FYI...

[GameDaddy]

No you're not; I'm from Florida (we spent Mother's Day at St. Augustine - my wife loves it up there, I like going to the winery) and if you look west from Castillo de San Marcos you are looking at/towards Watson Island and the Bayard Conservation Area.

The Everglades are 400mi. south (give or take).  Technically the Everglades headwaters start in southern Orange County.

Just FYI...

Yes, I considered that while writing it. I was however more interested in having the readers rapidly orient themselves to the compass points.

The Bayard Conservation area is an almost identical biosphere to the Everglades in all respects. It's a swampy sawgrass low land woodland along the St. Johns river that is full alligators, snakes, teeming with heron, birds, and other wildlife, and also at one time, clouds of malaria laden mosquitos.

The differences between the two, especially during the early Florida settlement era, are inconsequential. At the time, with the exception of just a couple of difficult to traverse rough roads, Inland Florida was impenetrable swamps.

Another point of interest, Balboa's famed Fountain of Youth, is located a scant couple of miles North of the North gate of St. Augustine. I tried it. The water there sucks by the way, and to date, has thus far failed to reverse both my aging, and rare occasional lapses of judgement created by aging.  

Finally, if you get back up around St. Augustine along the St. John's you owe it to your wife to seek out Whitey's Fish Camp.

[Pseudoephedrine]

The Thirty Years' War, the English Civil War and Jacobitism drenched Britain in blood over religion (especially the Civil War). And that's leaving aside the issue of Ireland.

As late as the 1780's (240 years after Henry quit the Pope), I had relatives emigrating from Scotland for Jacobitism.

[Ian Warner]

Jacobism was tied up in politics mainly. The irony being that supposed "Papist Agressors" were actually for a guy who wanted to reinstitute James II's surprising tollerance to all different religious branches.

Religion didn't help and actually obfuscated which side would be better for my Proddy ancestors in the long run but oh well!

[RPGPundit]

No, the dissolution of the monasteries and the destruction of the ecclesiastical libraries both occurred under Henry as part of the Reformation. John Leland, whom I spoke of, was an agent of Henry's.

Edit: To be fair, responses to the rise of Protestantism in England, including the Counter-Reformation, weren't much better (I'm thinking here of Mary, of course, and the unjust execution of Lady Grey). Still, that doesn't save the Reformation itself from its own crimes.

I see. Well, there was some lack of clarity in your previous post that led me to think your gall truly had no bounds.  But apparently, it does.  
In any case, there's no question that there was some pretty brutal bloodshed on both sides.

Of course, that's what happens when you have corrupt powermongers looking to hold on to what they think is theirs by right on the one hand, and fanatical zealots looking to "purify the true church" on the other.

Plenty of blame to go around for blood spilled on all sides, no doubt.  Even so, I see the Reformation as an historical necessity; it saved the west from obscurantism and created the modern world.  It was utterly necessary in the sense that by then, Rome was rotten to the very core.

RPGPundit

[Ian Warner]

Yeah but in just over a century it was the Catholics who were all tollerant and the proddies who were the Zealots demanding laws against Catholic emancipation.

Funny how things change.

[danbuter]

British Muslims. Not helping Islam at all. I bet they are Wahabi too.

[One Horse Town]

Yep, there must be at least 12 people in that picture. Shocking.

[danbuter]

And they get a lot of tv coverage.

It's like when the news does a story about some idiot burning korans and then anti-Christians say all Christians are like that. Of course, we know none of the atheists here say that, but a whole lot do.

Both Islam and Christians need to get in front of a camera every single time something like this happens and denounce it. If they don't, they end up tarred with the same brush.

[One Horse Town]

I can't move for religious fundamentalists here. Truly.