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Author Topic: "Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day  (Read 4431 times)

danbuter

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« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2011, 09:34:48 PM »
In a perfect world, there would be no fundamentalists, religious or atheist.
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« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2011, 10:58:06 PM »
There are no atheist "fundamentalists". There are "zealous", even "fanatical", atheists, but fundamentalism is a doctrine that only makes sense within a certain kind of religion and does not mean "vehement". It's also one of the most stupid and ridiculous ways to react to modernity's challenge to religion, but that's another discussion for another time.
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danbuter

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« Reply #62 on: May 25, 2011, 11:04:49 PM »
I'd say atheists who are just pissed off at Christianity and haven't put any thought into it, but jump all over Christianity any time it is brought up, are fundamentalists. Atheism is their religion.
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« Reply #63 on: May 26, 2011, 03:18:17 AM »
Quote from: Ian Warner;460503
Yeah but in just over a century it was the Catholics who were all tollerant and the proddies who were the Zealots demanding laws against Catholic emancipation.

Funny how things change.

Catholics have never been "all tolerant" anywhere that they were in power.  Right up until the late 19th century they were kidnapping jewish boys in Rome, forcibly converting them and then using that as an excuse to not give them back to their parents.  Right up until the last 30 years or so, they were supporting mass-murdering dictatorships as long as they got favored.

If they were "all tolerant" in England it was only because they were by then in the minority and it was convenient to talk tolerance FOR THEM.  And of course, that was after Bloody Mary, the Spanish Armada, and Guy Fawkes (among other attempts) had all failed to destroy English Protestantism and restore catholicism by force to the country.

There's no question that there was some injustices committed against Catholics in england.  Its also quite understandable why the protestants in England would be paranoid in the extreme about Catholicism trying to come back and destroy them, they had literally attempted to do so multiple times.  And in the long run, it was England (and other protestant countries) that developed the concept of freedom of religion as we know it today, and the papacy only accepted these concepts by force.

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« Reply #64 on: May 26, 2011, 03:57:17 AM »
Quote from: danbuter;460539
I'd say atheists who are just pissed off at Christianity and haven't put any thought into it, but jump all over Christianity any time it is brought up, are fundamentalists.
So the ones who HAVE put thought into it... you're OK with them?

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« Reply #65 on: May 26, 2011, 04:24:28 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;460585
Catholics have never been "all tolerant" anywhere that they were in power.  Right up until the late 19th century they were kidnapping jewish boys in Rome, forcibly converting them and then using that as an excuse to not give them back to their parents.  Right up until the last 30 years or so, they were supporting mass-murdering dictatorships as long as they got favored.

If they were "all tolerant" in England it was only because they were by then in the minority and it was convenient to talk tolerance FOR THEM.  And of course, that was after Bloody Mary, the Spanish Armada, and Guy Fawkes (among other attempts) had all failed to destroy English Protestantism and restore catholicism by force to the country.

There's no question that there was some injustices committed against Catholics in england.  Its also quite understandable why the protestants in England would be paranoid in the extreme about Catholicism trying to come back and destroy them, they had literally attempted to do so multiple times.  And in the long run, it was England (and other protestant countries) that developed the concept of freedom of religion as we know it today, and the papacy only accepted these concepts by force.

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Then why was James II passing all sorts of religious freedom bills, mixing his government up with protestants and Catholics and generally being a lot more tollerant than his usuper ever was?

And why didn't he disband the CofE and reinstitute Catholicism?

He still had that kind of power and if Parliament caused problems he could just say piss off!
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danbuter

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« Reply #66 on: May 26, 2011, 06:23:05 AM »
Quote from: Simlasa;460590
So the ones who HAVE put thought into it... you're OK with them?

Sure. At least they're not just jumping on a "cool college" standpoint, which many "atheists" are.

Here's an interesting article about how some people get brain pattern experiences extremely similar to religious experience just from talking about their Apple computer: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-20064577-71.html . How many people have just replaced religion with some mundane item or even atheism itself to get the same "high" that religious services provide?
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« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2011, 07:05:41 AM »
I've always viewed the Anglican Church as a kind of mean between Catholicism and Protestantism. I know historically it is much more complicated than that, and that it belongs to the events of the reformation. But present day, in the US, I see a lot of former Catholics joining the Episcopal Church (especially the "high" branches) because of similarities in rituals. My parents joined the Episcopal Church as a compromise for this reason (my mother just couldn't handle how many of the other american protestant churches handled the eucharist and hierarchy).

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« Reply #68 on: May 26, 2011, 07:56:58 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;460497
Plenty of blame to go around for blood spilled on all sides, no doubt.  Even so, I see the Reformation as an historical necessity; it saved the west from obscurantism and created the modern world.  It was utterly necessary in the sense that by then, Rome was rotten to the very core.

Bloodshed aside, my real bone of contention with the Reformation (and why I have a problem viewing it as "an historical necessity") was the ecstasy of iconoclasticism that accompanied the dissolution of the monasteries. The loss of plastic artworks is bad enough, but reading descriptions of how manuscripts were treated is truly harrowing. So much was destroyed, so much knowledge was lost, and we don't even have a complete record of the library holdings that were simply obliterated out of ignorance. It's no wonder poor Leland went mad and died trying to complete his survey for the king.

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« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2011, 10:28:35 AM »
Quote from: GameDaddy;460463
Yes, I considered that while writing it. I was however more interested in having the readers rapidly orient themselves to the compass points.

The Bayard Conservation area is an almost identical biosphere to the Everglades in all respects. It's a swampy sawgrass low land woodland along the St. Johns river that is full alligators, snakes, teeming with heron, birds, and other wildlife, and also at one time, clouds of malaria laden mosquitos.

The differences between the two, especially during the early Florida settlement era, are inconsequential. At the time, with the exception of just a couple of difficult to traverse rough roads, Inland Florida was impenetrable swamps.


Dude, that's not the Everglades any more than Lake Superior is Lake Michigan.  Hey, both are great lakes, and they're right next to each other so what's the difference?  The 'Glades is a specific region in FL, that's all I'm saying.


Quote

Another point of interest, Balboa's famed Fountain of Youth, is located a scant couple of miles North of the North gate of St. Augustine. I tried it. The water there sucks by the way, and to date, has thus far failed to reverse both my aging, and rare occasional lapses of judgement created by aging.  

Finally, if you get back up around St. Augustine along the St. John's you owe it to your wife to seek out Whitey's Fish Camp.


Will do; we're headed down to the Keys this summer - taking Castle Delve on the road! - but I'm sure we'll be revisiting St. Augustine again and again.

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selfdeleteduser00001

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« Reply #70 on: May 26, 2011, 11:26:46 AM »
That'll be James II, the one that pissed off Parliament with his pro-Catholic policies and apparent wish to move to a more autocratic monarchy after the settlement between Church-Monarchy-Parliament in the Restoration? The one that pissed off the Establishment that they sent word to William of Orange that if he invaded, England would be quite happy to not resist and crown him King. That's William who was so popular that he was succeeded by his wife and then his sister?

I am very clear, in the English Reformation, Counter Reformation, Civil War, Interregnum, Revolution, Restoration and the Glorious Revolution of 1688 there was a lot of very nasty and cruel persecution of Catholics, Protestants of all colours and types, the nationalisation of the monarchies by theft, and at the end of it a settlement which controlled the monarchy very tightly and was profoundly discriminatory to Catholics.

But overall, it was a GOOD THING, IMHO..

Want some persecution and intolerance in other directions and far worse? Look to mainland Europe.. now they all did it so much nastier..

Hence.. religious tolerance is so key to modern Europe.
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« Reply #71 on: May 26, 2011, 11:31:59 AM »
Quote from: Géza Echs;460432

I can't speak to European culture or their influence on the US, being a Canadian.

Now I have found Canadian culture to be very like Europe, and of course you defended yourselves very well when them damned Yankees tried to invade in 1812.
But, let's say you were Quebecois, how would you view all of this then?
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« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2011, 01:49:55 AM »
Quote from: Ian Warner;460591
Then why was James II passing all sorts of religious freedom bills, mixing his government up with protestants and Catholics and generally being a lot more tollerant than his usuper ever was?

And why didn't he disband the CofE and reinstitute Catholicism?

He still had that kind of power and if Parliament caused problems he could just say piss off!


Ahem. Did you see this little thing that happened called the Glorious Revolution?

James knew that the Catholics were seriously outnumbered, and that his position was tenuous.  He was trying to walk a tightrope that would allow catholicism to make a comeback in England (particularly in the halls of power), but he knew he couldn't pull a full "Mary" on the country.  He took his shot by going about it another way, and even then it failed.

Whatever power he had on paper, by then Catholicism had become a massive boogeyman to the British establishment, and he knew that in practice he would need to be very careful in how he planned things.  Had the situation been different, and had he cemented his power, it would be highly unlikely that he would have stopped with "toleration".

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« Reply #73 on: May 27, 2011, 02:07:28 AM »
Quote from: tzunder;460647
Now I have found Canadian culture to be very like Europe, and of course you defended yourselves very well when them damned Yankees tried to invade in 1812.


We tend to be a bit proud of that, yes. :)

Quote

But, let's say you were Quebecois, how would you view all of this then?


I honestly find that difficult to answer, since I was raised Anglophone in Ontario and have spent the past thirteen years or so in Manitoba on the prairies. Québécois culture is fundamentally distinct from what I've experienced, especially if we're talking about the historical Québécois. Suffice to say, though, that bound up with a variety of other stances against historical prejudice, I would probably be fiercely Roman Catholic -- far more than I am now. Which shouldn't be a surprise; Quebec has always been overwhelmingly Catholic, and received a lot of oppression because of it (Canada has historically [and still is in a lot of ways] been slanted towards Protestantism).

Layer in the Québécois attitude concerning nationalism and sovereignty to their religious heritage, and you've got a strong recepie for entrenched defensiveness.

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« Reply #74 on: May 27, 2011, 08:51:57 PM »
Historically, Quebec was incredibly catholic, yes. Today, it has the lowest percentage of religious participation of anywhere in Canada.

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