Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.

[dkabq]

I think every reasonable person can agree:

• Covid is dangerous for the elderly and those with certain co-morbidities
• But for most of the working age population, it's less dangerous than any number of other background threats

There's a bit of coflict in these two points because the list of "certain co-morbidities" is pretty broad, and much of the working age population may have one or more--even if they are unaware (a lot of people are less informed of their own health condition than you might think) or are in denial (particularly common for overweight/obese).

In the US...

~42% of adults are obese
~47% of adults have hypertension
~13% of adults have diabetes
~10% of adults have hyperlipidemia (high cholesterol)

But even with that, the death numbers clearly indicate that age is the dominant parameter
~28% of covid deaths are 85+
~55% of covid deaths are 75+
~77% of covid deaths are 65+
~94% of covid deaths are 50+

[Ghostmaker]

The messaging about Covid and the vaccine has been flat fucking schizophrenic, if not plain stupid.

The 'experts' can't seem to make up their minds whether the vaccine protects you or not. The stories keep changing, based upon (I suppose) what will support the latest grab for power.

Sebelius said, "I think what President Biden has done is balance between what the science says and trying to cajole, encourage, make it easy for people to follow the science. When that turned out not to be as effective, then he turned to more hardened mandates. But what people don't have a right to do is make other people sick, put other people in jeopardy, risk other people's lives, risk children's lives. So I think the president has been walking a line of balancing science and safety and security at every step along the way. Hoping that the mass majority of the American public would follow that lead."

She added, "It's a lot like secondhand smoke. You have a right to be a smoker. The science is very clear what smoking will do to you, what cancer will be caused, what kinds of health conditions. You have a right to be a smoker. You don't have a right to smoke next to my desk, to blow smoke on people, on my children, to force me to live in a housing facility where I am subjected to more smoke. That is a line that we have in this country, which delineates what your individual rights are. I think we're looking at very much the same situation. OSHA, you're absolutely right, has always provided guidance and mandates about safety in a workplace. This is not a safe workplace if I'm working with a person that may make me and my family sick. That's not acceptable."

For those of you wondering, this is former Obama HHS apparatchik Kathleen Sebelius.

DOES THE FUCKING VACCINE WORK OR NOT?

[dkabq]

The messaging about Covid and the vaccine has been flat fucking schizophrenic, if not plain stupid.

The 'experts' can't seem to make up their minds whether the vaccine protects you or not. The stories keep changing, based upon (I suppose) what will support the latest grab for power.

Sebelius said, "I think what President Biden has done is balance between what the science says and trying to cajole, encourage, make it easy for people to follow the science. When that turned out not to be as effective, then he turned to more hardened mandates. But what people don't have a right to do is make other people sick, put other people in jeopardy, risk other people's lives, risk children's lives. So I think the president has been walking a line of balancing science and safety and security at every step along the way. Hoping that the mass majority of the American public would follow that lead."

She added, "It's a lot like secondhand smoke. You have a right to be a smoker. The science is very clear what smoking will do to you, what cancer will be caused, what kinds of health conditions. You have a right to be a smoker. You don't have a right to smoke next to my desk, to blow smoke on people, on my children, to force me to live in a housing facility where I am subjected to more smoke. That is a line that we have in this country, which delineates what your individual rights are. I think we're looking at very much the same situation. OSHA, you're absolutely right, has always provided guidance and mandates about safety in a workplace. This is not a safe workplace if I'm working with a person that may make me and my family sick. That's not acceptable."

For those of you wondering, this is former Obama HHS apparatchik Kathleen Sebelius.

DOES THE FUCKING VACCINE WORK OR NOT?

By that same token, I can argue that the speed limit should be reduced such that nobody can die in a car crash, that everyone has to get the flu vax, and that I must be protected against catching a cold from the jabroni in the next cube.

I believe that the answer to your question is that the vaccine reduces your risk of catching covid, spreading covid, the severity of symptoms, and the chance of death. That reduction is not to zero, and it is dependent on your specific age, health, variants you are exposed to and under what circumstances, vaccine type and time since last dose. Also, nobody knows what the long-term side effects will be.

[Ghostmaker]

So if Covid is this serious thing, why is no testing being done on the people crossing the southern border?

Before you say, 'but it is!'... well, no, no it's not. In fact, the R's tried to introduce a bill to require any migrant released from INS/CBP custody to have a negative Covid test. Bill was killed by the Dems.

Once again: the messaging is schizophrenic, and only makes sense if you assume the whole thing is a dodge and an attempt to gather more power via the ongoing crisis.

[Kiero]

You ignorantly attribute this to the vaccine rather than the changing charactersitics of viral variants. You truly live in a different world from realtiy.

You're delusional if you think a concoction that doesn't prevent infection or transmission is having any effect whatsoever. Viruses become more infectious and less deadly as time goes on. That's why the last time I had covid was much less severe than the time before (even then neither required medical attention of any kind).

I live in the reality of being exposed all the fucking time, and seeing no impact whatsoever. Lots of people are complaining about bad colds right now as the usual sniffles season comes in - I've had nothing more than a sniff a few times.

[Pat]

I think every reasonable person can agree:

• Covid is dangerous for the elderly and those with certain co-morbidities
• But for most of the working age population, it's less dangerous than any number of other background threats

There's a bit of coflict in these two points because the list of "certain co-morbidities" is pretty broad, and much of the working age population may have one or more--even if they are unaware (a lot of people are less informed of their own health condition than you might think) or are in denial (particularly common for overweight/obese).

In the US...

~42% of adults are obese
~47% of adults have hypertension
~13% of adults have diabetes
~10% of adults have hyperlipidemia (high cholesterol)

But even with that, the death numbers clearly indicate that age is the dominant parameter
~28% of covid deaths are 85+
~55% of covid deaths are 75+
~77% of covid deaths are 65+
~94% of covid deaths are 50+

It's not a conflict. The primary factor is age, but co-morbidities do amplify the risk, relative to age. It's true that the young are at little risk overall, but it's also true that the among the small number of young who are affected, those with co-morbidities will be massively overrepresented. That's why so many of the young people who die of the disease while "perfectly healthy" are clearly obese.

[Pat]

You ignorantly attribute this to the vaccine rather than the changing charactersitics of viral variants. You truly live in a different world from realtiy.

You're delusional if you think a concoction that doesn't prevent infection or transmission is having any effect whatsoever. Viruses become more infectious and less deadly as time goes on. That's why the last time I had covid was much less severe than the time before (even then neither required medical attention of any kind).

I live in the reality of being exposed all the fucking time, and seeing no impact whatsoever. Lots of people are complaining about bad colds right now as the usual sniffles season comes in - I've had nothing more than a sniff a few times.

It's not the usual season. Due to in/voluntary isolation and distancing, many infectious diseases like the common cold, influenza, RSV, enteroviruses, and noroviruses have been suppressed for at least a year and a half. It's been long enough that immunity in the population has diminished, so it's going to be a bad fall and winter for sniffles, vomiting, and other fun stuff. And it seems like the new coronavirus has displaced flus.

[Kiero]

It's not the usual season. Due to in/voluntary isolation and distancing, many infectious diseases like the common cold, influenza, RSV, enteroviruses, and noroviruses have been suppressed for at least a year and a half. It's been long enough that immunity in the population has diminished, so it's going to be a bad fall and winter for sniffles, vomiting, and other fun stuff. And it seems like the new coronavirus has displaced flus.

Whilst it is unprecedented having the sniffles carrying right through the summer, now is the change in seasons when all the colds and flus come out in the UK.

There's been a big rise in children being hospitalised with RSV in Stalag New Zealand. Something that wouldn't happen if they were mixing with others.

[Kiero]

Mystery rise in heart attacks from blocked arteries

Gosh, I can't even imagine what the cause of this might be...

[KingCheops]

I believe that the answer to your question is that the vaccine reduces your risk of catching covid, spreading covid,

It doesn't do these two things.  It does reduce the symptoms so you can catch it and carry it and spread it but not get as severely affected.

Also it's a massive slippery slope as I've posted either in this thread or another here.  Well lets force people to lose weight.  Lets force people to stop smoking/drinking.  Lets force people to abort Down Syndrome diagnosed pregnancies.  Let's force people to abort/kill any children born with any defect we don't like.  Well lets just get rid of all the half breeds and non-WASPs.

[HappyDaze]

I believe that the answer to your question is that the vaccine reduces your risk of catching covid, spreading covid,

It doesn't do these two things.  It does reduce the symptoms so you can catch it and carry it and spread it but not get as severely affected.

Also it's a massive slippery slope as I've posted either in this thread or another here.  Well lets force people to lose weight.  Lets force people to stop smoking/drinking.  Lets force people to abort Down Syndrome diagnosed pregnancies.  Let's force people to abort/kill any children born with any defect we don't like.  Well lets just get rid of all the half breeds and non-WASPs.

Please clarify: Are you arguing for or against the fallacy?

[dkabq]

I think every reasonable person can agree:

• Covid is dangerous for the elderly and those with certain co-morbidities
• But for most of the working age population, it's less dangerous than any number of other background threats

There's a bit of coflict in these two points because the list of "certain co-morbidities" is pretty broad, and much of the working age population may have one or more--even if they are unaware (a lot of people are less informed of their own health condition than you might think) or are in denial (particularly common for overweight/obese).

In the US...

~42% of adults are obese
~47% of adults have hypertension
~13% of adults have diabetes
~10% of adults have hyperlipidemia (high cholesterol)

But even with that, the death numbers clearly indicate that age is the dominant parameter
~28% of covid deaths are 85+
~55% of covid deaths are 75+
~77% of covid deaths are 65+
~94% of covid deaths are 50+

It's not a conflict. The primary factor is age, but co-morbidities do amplify the risk, relative to age. It's true that the young are at little risk overall, but it's also true that the among the small number of young who are affected, those with co-morbidities will be massively overrepresented. That's why so many of the young people who die of the disease while "perfectly healthy" are clearly obese.

Indeed. I would love to see death and hospitalization data in terms age, comorbidities, etc.

[RPGPundit]

I think that some of the anti-vax side are just as stupid as the forced-vax side.

The idea that the vaccine "doesn't work" is idiotic. Again, look at stats for Uruguay, where vaccination (which was entirely voluntary, encouraged but in no way forced by the government) was a huge success and cases plummeted. Yes, they don't provide absolute protection, but they greatly reduce chances of infection, and if infected greatly reduce chances of hospitalization or death.

The real "health" argument, if you want to make one, is that in a huge percentage of the population (basically, anyone under 60 without comorbidities) the risk of infection, hospitalization or death is already miniscule.
Even when you look at statistics for the over-60 crowd, the 'average' death rate is misleading, because someone over 60 without comorbidities is 90 times less likely of dying from Covid than someone over 60 with comorbidities.

So given that, the fundamental argument shouldn't be "vaccines don't work" (much less some of the other conspiracy theories out there). It should be "the Police State notion of forcing hard or soft Mandatory Vaccination policies is a violation of civil liberties".

to what degree was the vax/anti-vax divide politicized in Uraguay?

It was somewhat. As the Opposition Socialist/Communist Coalition party along with the Public Servants and Unions all tried to demand forced Lockdown, they have also been trying somewhat to push for Vaccine Passports.

On the other hand, the conservative-libertarian/Populist-conservative Coalition has stood firm.

We do have a tiny cadre of very weird anti-vaxxers, like the old school type, that are occasionally holding events or protests. Some of these are from the far left fringe ("The Radical Animalist Party", I kid you not that's their real name, they're a party composed of people too far left for either the Communists or the Intransigent Green Party), and some of them are from the far right (mainly some alt-right type conspiracy-theorists Anti-Semite/Anti-mason nut jobs who think this is the NWO implanting mind control chips on people).

[RPGPundit]

I think every reasonable person can agree:

• Covid is dangerous for the elderly and those with certain co-morbidities
• But for most of the working age population, it's less dangerous than any number of other background threats
• And for children, it's even less dangerous
• On top of that, children don't spread the disease as much as adults
• Remote schooling is a disaster piled upon a catastrophe poked by the pitchforks of the teacher's unions
• The school shutdowns were never justified
• The lockdowns were never justified
• The damage to the economies of the world caused by the lockdowns is incalculable
• The damage to the health of the people of the world caused by the lockdowns is incalculable, but worse than the disease
• The virus has almost completely bypassed all counter measures, except strict and early border controls by island nations
• The best evidence suggests masks don't work
• Covid-19 has become endemic, and we need to learn to live with it
• ... and with hindsight, this was inevitable in late 2019
• The vaccines aren't very good at preventing infection, but they do substantially reduce the chance of serious effects like hospitalization or death
• Side effects are common, and severe side effects are rare, but given the risk profile of the disease, vaccines are questionable for those who aren't in the highest risk categories
• The long term effects of the vaccines are completely unknown, because not enough time has passed
• There is nothing about covid that hasn't been turned into a political weapon
• This is a blatant power grab by central governments i.e. never let a crisis go to waste
• The lockdowns are totalitarianism
• The mandates are totalitarianism
• The world is trending strongly towards totalitarianism
• ... and most people don't seem to mind
• Public health has destroyed all their credibility by lying and generating FUD
• The mainstream news media have destroyed all their credibility by lying and generating FUD
• ... and most people have bought into the fear
• Alternative news media is flaky as hell and not a good replacement
• Anybody who talks about "the Science" is roughly as credible as a Creationist
• They lied about the lab origin possibility
• Cuomo, Whitmer, Murphy, Newsom, and Wolf committed crimes against humanity
• No politicians or public officials will suffer any real consequences from their actions

Yup.

[RPGPundit]

• The school shutdowns were never justified
• The lockdowns were never justified

I agree with all that, except these two points.
When the pandemic first started, information was sparse. I remember seeing pictures of people in China literally collapsing on the street.

Yeah, except, how did that happen? Why did that happen? Why did it not happen anywhere else? We were shown, by China, a lot of footage that made Covid seem like something out of Stephen King's The Stand: people just dropping dead in the sidewalk, medical staff in full containment suits, the government entombing people in a frantic attempt to stop the spread.

Kind of funny how nothing like that happened after, right? Just in China?