Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.

[dkabq]

I would love for you guys to tell me how Summer Brennan is simply lying about all of this concerning her father. How she is part of some grand liberal conspiracy or something:

Link to Summer Brennan's Twitter Account of Hospital ICUs being Full

What happened was that while in the hospital, my dad caught viral pneumonia that went unnoticed. The whole state was in lockdown, and every hospital ICU was filling up with unvaccinated Covid patients. There weren't enough resources. The governor begged people to get vaxxed.

Please get vaccinated. Wear a mask. You never know how it will affect you.

Just some grist for the mill:

New Mexico ended its covid lockdown on July 1. New Mexico's ICUs are normally almost-full.

That said, ICU bed capacity was exceeded in August and the majority of hospitalized covid cases were unvaccinated.
https://www.krqe.com/health/coronavirus-new-mexico/local-hospital-leaders-give-update-on-covid-19-hospitalizations/
https://www.abqjournal.com/2423069/as-nm-hospitals-fill-50-patients-awaiting-icu-space.html
https://www.abqjournal.com/2421352/19-of-nms-new-virus-cases-were-vaccinated.html


It is a sad story. Very similar to the stories of people that were unable to get proper care during the lockdown and have died/will die due to the lack of care.

I agree that those at most risk from covid (60+ year-olds, people with comorbidities) ought to get the vaccinated. Not sure about the risk/reward for the healthy and young.

And as for masks, we all know where I stand on that. But I am always open to discussing the fluid mechanics and aerosol physics regarding masks, or the obvious logical inconsistencies in mask mandates.

Regards.

[FelixGamingX1]

Meanwhile, NSW is bracing for another Covid surge.

[RPGPundit]

I think that some of the anti-vax side are just as stupid as the forced-vax side.

The idea that the vaccine "doesn't work" is idiotic. Again, look at stats for Uruguay, where vaccination (which was entirely voluntary, encouraged but in no way forced by the government) was a huge success and cases plummeted. Yes, they don't provide absolute protection, but they greatly reduce chances of infection, and if infected greatly reduce chances of hospitalization or death.

The real "health" argument, if you want to make one, is that in a huge percentage of the population (basically, anyone under 60 without comorbidities) the risk of infection, hospitalization or death is already miniscule.
Even when you look at statistics for the over-60 crowd, the 'average' death rate is misleading, because someone over 60 without comorbidities is 90 times less likely of dying from Covid than someone over 60 with comorbidities.

So given that, the fundamental argument shouldn't be "vaccines don't work" (much less some of the other conspiracy theories out there). It should be "the Police State notion of forcing hard or soft Mandatory Vaccination policies is a violation of civil liberties".

[HappyDaze]

I think that some of the anti-vax side are just as stupid as the forced-vax side.

The idea that the vaccine "doesn't work" is idiotic. Again, look at stats for Uruguay, where vaccination (which was entirely voluntary, encouraged but in no way forced by the government) was a huge success and cases plummeted. Yes, they don't provide absolute protection, but they greatly reduce chances of infection, and if infected greatly reduce chances of hospitalization or death.

The real "health" argument, if you want to make one, is that in a huge percentage of the population (basically, anyone under 60 without comorbidities) the risk of infection, hospitalization or death is already miniscule.
Even when you look at statistics for the over-60 crowd, the 'average' death rate is misleading, because someone over 60 without comorbidities is 90 times less likely of dying from Covid than someone over 60 with comorbidities.

So given that, the fundamental argument shouldn't be "vaccines don't work" (much less some of the other conspiracy theories out there). It should be "the Police State notion of forcing hard or soft Mandatory Vaccination policies is a violation of civil liberties".

to what degree was the vax/anti-vax divide politicized in Uraguay?

[Ratman_tf]

I think that some of the anti-vax side are just as stupid as the forced-vax side.

The idea that the vaccine "doesn't work" is idiotic. Again, look at stats for Uruguay, where vaccination (which was entirely voluntary, encouraged but in no way forced by the government) was a huge success and cases plummeted. Yes, they don't provide absolute protection, but they greatly reduce chances of infection, and if infected greatly reduce chances of hospitalization or death.

The real "health" argument, if you want to make one, is that in a huge percentage of the population (basically, anyone under 60 without comorbidities) the risk of infection, hospitalization or death is already miniscule.
Even when you look at statistics for the over-60 crowd, the 'average' death rate is misleading, because someone over 60 without comorbidities is 90 times less likely of dying from Covid than someone over 60 with comorbidities.

So given that, the fundamental argument shouldn't be "vaccines don't work" (much less some of the other conspiracy theories out there). It should be "the Police State notion of forcing hard or soft Mandatory Vaccination policies is a violation of civil liberties".

Well, I tend to agree. But moderate positions don't get clicks on the interwebz.

[Pat]

I think every reasonable person can agree:

• Covid is dangerous for the elderly and those with certain co-morbidities
• But for most of the working age population, it's less dangerous than any number of other background threats
• And for children, it's even less dangerous
• On top of that, children don't spread the disease as much as adults
• Remote schooling is a disaster piled upon a catastrophe poked by the pitchforks of the teacher's unions
• The school shutdowns were never justified
• The lockdowns were never justified
• The damage to the economies of the world caused by the lockdowns is incalculable
• The damage to the health of the people of the world caused by the lockdowns is incalculable, but worse than the disease
• The virus has almost completely bypassed all counter measures, except strict and early border controls by island nations
• The best evidence suggests masks don't work
• Covid-19 has become endemic, and we need to learn to live with it
• ... and with hindsight, this was inevitable in late 2019
• The vaccines aren't very good at preventing infection, but they do substantially reduce the chance of serious effects like hospitalization or death
• Side effects are common, and severe side effects are rare, but given the risk profile of the disease, vaccines are questionable for those who aren't in the highest risk categories
• The long term effects of the vaccines are completely unknown, because not enough time has passed
• There is nothing about covid that hasn't been turned into a political weapon
• This is a blatant power grab by central governments i.e. never let a crisis go to waste
• The lockdowns are totalitarianism
• The mandates are totalitarianism
• The world is trending strongly towards totalitarianism
• ... and most people don't seem to mind
• Public health has destroyed all their credibility by lying and generating FUD
• The mainstream news media have destroyed all their credibility by lying and generating FUD
• ... and most people have bought into the fear
• Alternative news media is flaky as hell and not a good replacement
• Anybody who talks about "the Science" is roughly as credible as a Creationist
• They lied about the lab origin possibility
• Cuomo, Whitmer, Murphy, Newsom, and Wolf committed crimes against humanity
• No politicians or public officials will suffer any real consequences from their actions

[Ratman_tf]

• The school shutdowns were never justified
• The lockdowns were never justified

I agree with all that, except these two points.
When the pandemic first started, information was sparse. I remember seeing pictures of people in China literally collapsing on the street. In the face of a huge unknown infection, I think a two week lockdown, mask wearing and shutdowns were justified.
On the other hand, once we went there, we opened that door, now mandates are easier to implement, a year later when we have much more information.

Fun anecdote, I went to the store tonight to pick up some things. The store requires everyone, vaxxed and unvaxxed to wear a mask. On the way out, I saw an employee chatting with a customer, both with their masks down on their necks, off their faces.

[Pat]

• The school shutdowns were never justified
• The lockdowns were never justified

I agree with all that, except these two points.
When the pandemic first started, information was sparse. I remember seeing pictures of people in China literally collapsing on the street. In the face of a huge unknown infection, I think a two week lockdown, mask wearing and shutdowns were justified.
On the other hand, once we went there, we opened that door, now mandates are easier to implement, a year later when we have much more information.

Fun anecdote, I went to the store tonight to pick up some things. The store requires everyone, vaxxed and unvaxxed to wear a mask. On the way out, I saw an employee chatting with a customer, both with their masks down on their necks, off their faces.

Except by the time the school shutdowns were implemented, we knew children weren't at high risk, and didn't seem to be spreading the disease to each other or adults, in any real numbers. We didn't know how utter and complete a failure remote schooling was going to end up, but we did know it was probably going to be bad. And regarding the economic lockdowns, they could have been just as a effective if they were voluntary. In fact, they were effectively voluntary because they hadn't really worked out enforcement mechanisms except for a few municipalities that went after bars. On top of that, they never looked at the economic consequences. They had all kinds of medical officials who had never even had a job in the private sector talking about "saving the economy", when they should have been talking to economists and assessing how many people the lockdowns would kill through delayed treatment, reduced innovations, reduced lifetime pay and thus reduced health outcomes (which has fallout effects into the next generation), and dozens of other factors. At the very least, they should have followed their own guidance, which was clear that lockdowns weren't justified.

Masks were a reasonable precaution, until it became clear the disease was highly aerosolized. But even though the CDC finally admitted that was the case (over a year late), they're still largely ignoring that, and things like ventilation are buried on the back page instead of being an above the crease story like masks masks masks.

[Ratman_tf]

• The school shutdowns were never justified
• The lockdowns were never justified

I agree with all that, except these two points.
When the pandemic first started, information was sparse. I remember seeing pictures of people in China literally collapsing on the street. In the face of a huge unknown infection, I think a two week lockdown, mask wearing and shutdowns were justified.
On the other hand, once we went there, we opened that door, now mandates are easier to implement, a year later when we have much more information.

Fun anecdote, I went to the store tonight to pick up some things. The store requires everyone, vaxxed and unvaxxed to wear a mask. On the way out, I saw an employee chatting with a customer, both with their masks down on their necks, off their faces.

Except by the time the school shutdowns were implemented, we knew children weren't at high risk, and didn't seem to be spreading the disease to each other or adults, in any real numbers. We didn't know how utter and complete a failure remote schooling was going to end up, but we did know it was probably going to be bad. And regarding the economic lockdowns, they could have been just as a effective if they were voluntary. In fact, they were effectively voluntary because they hadn't really worked out enforcement mechanisms except for a few municipalities that went after bars. On top of that, they never looked at the economic consequences. They had all kinds of medical officials who had never even had a job in the private sector talking about "saving the economy", when they should have been talking to economists and assessing how many people the lockdowns would kill through delayed treatment, reduced innovations, reduced lifetime pay and thus reduced health outcomes (which has fallout effects into the next generation), and dozens of other factors. At the very least, they should have followed their own guidance, which was clear that lockdowns weren't justified.

Masks were a reasonable precaution, until it became clear the disease was highly aerosolized. But even though the CDC finally admitted that was the case (over a year late), they're still largely ignoring that, and things like ventilation are buried on the back page instead of being an above the crease story like masks masks masks.

That's why I stipulated two weeks. After that, we could have implemented sane policies. Except we didn't. Everyone went goddamn crazy.

[Pat]

• The school shutdowns were never justified
• The lockdowns were never justified

I agree with all that, except these two points.
When the pandemic first started, information was sparse. I remember seeing pictures of people in China literally collapsing on the street. In the face of a huge unknown infection, I think a two week lockdown, mask wearing and shutdowns were justified.
On the other hand, once we went there, we opened that door, now mandates are easier to implement, a year later when we have much more information.

Fun anecdote, I went to the store tonight to pick up some things. The store requires everyone, vaxxed and unvaxxed to wear a mask. On the way out, I saw an employee chatting with a customer, both with their masks down on their necks, off their faces.

Except by the time the school shutdowns were implemented, we knew children weren't at high risk, and didn't seem to be spreading the disease to each other or adults, in any real numbers. We didn't know how utter and complete a failure remote schooling was going to end up, but we did know it was probably going to be bad. And regarding the economic lockdowns, they could have been just as a effective if they were voluntary. In fact, they were effectively voluntary because they hadn't really worked out enforcement mechanisms except for a few municipalities that went after bars. On top of that, they never looked at the economic consequences. They had all kinds of medical officials who had never even had a job in the private sector talking about "saving the economy", when they should have been talking to economists and assessing how many people the lockdowns would kill through delayed treatment, reduced innovations, reduced lifetime pay and thus reduced health outcomes (which has fallout effects into the next generation), and dozens of other factors. At the very least, they should have followed their own guidance, which was clear that lockdowns weren't justified.

Masks were a reasonable precaution, until it became clear the disease was highly aerosolized. But even though the CDC finally admitted that was the case (over a year late), they're still largely ignoring that, and things like ventilation are buried on the back page instead of being an above the crease story like masks masks masks.

That's why I stipulated two weeks. After that, we could have implemented sane policies. Except we didn't. Everyone went goddamn crazy.

I have no problem with people acting based on limited knowledge, and being wrong. In fact, I've argued that point myself to justify the initial response. But I've changed my mind. I no longer think the first two weeks were justified.

Yes, the public in general had poor information, and from their perspective the actions may have been reasonable. But the people in power and key positions either had the information or had access to the information, and they ignored it. Just look at all the documentation from 2019 and earlier on how to handle pandemics, and how it was universally against lockdowns. They were literally ignoring the best practices they themselves had put in place. Or look at all the press conferences, where they trotted out public health officials, but there was never an economist. They focused on the disease, because it was immediate, visible, and made for lots of sensational stories. And they focused on the short term possible results of their own actions (more intent than reality), and ignored the long term or secondary consequences, which are very real but easy to ignore because they're abstract and will mostly take effect beyond the next election cycle. All the politicians wanted to position themselves as grand leaders taking decisive action. Saying nah it's okay or it's not recommended or we don't know or these long term things will happen in the distant future to a vague someone isn't nearly as forceful and election-worthy as certain answers and clear actions.

But I am willing to stipulate it's reasonable to think the first two weeks may have been justified.

[Kiero]

The "vaccine" is nothing of the sort and does fuck all. You need only look at Israel, the most vaccinated country on the planet, for the proof there. The jab is so effective they're now mandating fourth doses and are locked down again.

My country is one of the most vaccinated larger countries, the majority of people in hospital and dying have had two doses. More people are in hospital and dying with covid now, than was the case this time last year when hardly anyone was jabbed.

[Kiero]

The vaccines aren't very good at preventing infection, but they do substantially reduce the chance of serious effects like hospitalization or death

I agree with most of your list bar this - that's not what is very evident in highly vaccinated countries.

[HappyDaze]

I think every reasonable person can agree:

• Covid is dangerous for the elderly and those with certain co-morbidities
• But for most of the working age population, it's less dangerous than any number of other background threats

There's a bit of coflict in these two points because the list of "certain co-morbidities" is pretty broad, and much of the working age population may have one or more--even if they are unaware (a lot of people are less informed of their own health condition than you might think) or are in denial (particulalry common for overweight/obese).

[HappyDaze]

The "vaccine" is nothing of the sort and does fuck all. You need only look at Israel, the most vaccinated country on the planet, for the proof there. The jab is so effective they're now mandating fourth doses and are locked down again.

My country is one of the most vaccinated larger countries, the majority of people in hospital and dying have had two doses. More people are in hospital and dying with covid now, than was the case this time last year when hardly anyone was jabbed.

You ignorantly attribute this to the vaccine rather than the changing charactersitics of viral variants. You truly live in a different world from realtiy.

[FelixGamingX1]

The idea that the vaccine "doesn't work" is idiotic. Again, look at stats for Uruguay, where vaccination (which was entirely voluntary, encouraged but in no way forced by the government) was a huge success and cases plummeted. Yes, they don't provide absolute protection, but they greatly reduce chances of infection, and if infected greatly reduce chances of hospitalization or death.

Yea man, life in South America is healthier in general. Climate probably helps too. The base everyday stress in the US alone knocks your immune system down significantly. Add that to all the fake soy stuff we eat, and Covid is far more deadlier.

Think I got the covid 2 weeks ago. Feels like breathing through a straw. Could've been the change of seasons dunno, still here.