Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.

[Mistwell]

  You mean we export the hollywood version of our culture, which is to say a corrupt, amoral, shitshow.  It did not transform China, China realized they could take on our farmed out labor at slave wages and create a "middle class", but in a nation where the poverty line is around 700 USD per year, exactly what does middle class mean?  China realized they could use greed as a powerful tool and operate much like a fascist nation now.  Freedom wise, what exactly has China changed?  They just do not have to disappear or lock as many people into concentration camps these days thanks to a quite compliant society.    China also seems to be taking more and more control of that hollywood propaganda machine...I am sure it will not be to export more american culture.  The Soviet Union was brought down for a lot of reasons, Balkanism, being an empire (with too many different cultures under one rule), and wild spending on the military at the cost of care of citizens (sound familiar?), the Soviet Union didnt collapse because of blue jeans and rock and roll.

You continue to prove, on topic after topic, that you really talk out of your ass and have no clue most of the time.  The middle class in China is very real and has very serious buying power. I know many of them. I work with them every week. Freedom-wise China changed drastically. You can now own property. You can now travel freely. You can now invest in new businesses.

Do you even fucking know a single person in China and have asked them about it? I am betting you don't. Because you're talking out of your ass based on some vague bullshit notions you've picked up from other shit talkers over the years who also don't know what the fuck they're talking about but think they can substitute knowledge with bluster.

As usual, you are a fucking moron.

None of these things you invoke -- property, travel, investment -- occur without the tacit consent of the CCP. This is borne out by the new 'social credit' score system that is used to determine yes, what you can buy, where you can live, and where you can go.

But that suits you, doesn't it Misty?

Tell us more about how 'free' China is. Tell us about how they don't suppress religions, or crack down on dissidents. Oh wait. You can't.

Ah yes, the continually moving line where the other guy has to prove perfection.  I never said or implied China had achieved perfect levels of freedom. I said China is more free thanks to the impacts of globalism, and to portray their workers as slaves is bullshit. It doesn't "suit me" in the sense of course I want MORE freedom for the people of China, but unquestionably the impact the U.S. was having on China with our free trade was promoting MORE FREEDOM for China. And unquestionable the pull-back in free trade with China has resulted in LESS FREEDOM in China. That is my point. Which you fully understood and had to use this ridiculous strawman to try and deflect from it.

[Ghostmaker]

  You mean we export the hollywood version of our culture, which is to say a corrupt, amoral, shitshow.  It did not transform China, China realized they could take on our farmed out labor at slave wages and create a "middle class", but in a nation where the poverty line is around 700 USD per year, exactly what does middle class mean?  China realized they could use greed as a powerful tool and operate much like a fascist nation now.  Freedom wise, what exactly has China changed?  They just do not have to disappear or lock as many people into concentration camps these days thanks to a quite compliant society.    China also seems to be taking more and more control of that hollywood propaganda machine...I am sure it will not be to export more american culture.  The Soviet Union was brought down for a lot of reasons, Balkanism, being an empire (with too many different cultures under one rule), and wild spending on the military at the cost of care of citizens (sound familiar?), the Soviet Union didnt collapse because of blue jeans and rock and roll.

You continue to prove, on topic after topic, that you really talk out of your ass and have no clue most of the time.  The middle class in China is very real and has very serious buying power. I know many of them. I work with them every week. Freedom-wise China changed drastically. You can now own property. You can now travel freely. You can now invest in new businesses.

Do you even fucking know a single person in China and have asked them about it? I am betting you don't. Because you're talking out of your ass based on some vague bullshit notions you've picked up from other shit talkers over the years who also don't know what the fuck they're talking about but think they can substitute knowledge with bluster.

As usual, you are a fucking moron.

None of these things you invoke -- property, travel, investment -- occur without the tacit consent of the CCP. This is borne out by the new 'social credit' score system that is used to determine yes, what you can buy, where you can live, and where you can go.

But that suits you, doesn't it Misty?

Tell us more about how 'free' China is. Tell us about how they don't suppress religions, or crack down on dissidents. Oh wait. You can't.

Ah yes, the continually moving line where the other guy has to prove perfection.  I never said or implied China had achieved perfect levels of freedom. I said China is more free thanks to the impacts of globalism, and to portray their workers as slaves is bullshit. It doesn't "suit me" in the sense of course I want MORE freedom for the people of China, but unquestionably the impact the U.S. was having on China with our free trade was promoting MORE FREEDOM for China. And unquestionable the pull-back in free trade with China has resulted in LESS FREEDOM in China. That is my point. Which you fully understood and had to use this ridiculous strawman to try and deflect from it.

The line hasn't moved in the slightest, you cocksucker.

You are stating a degree of freedom in China that does not fucking exist.

[Mistwell]

  You mean we export the hollywood version of our culture, which is to say a corrupt, amoral, shitshow.  It did not transform China, China realized they could take on our farmed out labor at slave wages and create a "middle class", but in a nation where the poverty line is around 700 USD per year, exactly what does middle class mean?  China realized they could use greed as a powerful tool and operate much like a fascist nation now.  Freedom wise, what exactly has China changed?  They just do not have to disappear or lock as many people into concentration camps these days thanks to a quite compliant society.    China also seems to be taking more and more control of that hollywood propaganda machine...I am sure it will not be to export more american culture.  The Soviet Union was brought down for a lot of reasons, Balkanism, being an empire (with too many different cultures under one rule), and wild spending on the military at the cost of care of citizens (sound familiar?), the Soviet Union didnt collapse because of blue jeans and rock and roll.

You continue to prove, on topic after topic, that you really talk out of your ass and have no clue most of the time.  The middle class in China is very real and has very serious buying power. I know many of them. I work with them every week. Freedom-wise China changed drastically. You can now own property. You can now travel freely. You can now invest in new businesses.

Do you even fucking know a single person in China and have asked them about it? I am betting you don't. Because you're talking out of your ass based on some vague bullshit notions you've picked up from other shit talkers over the years who also don't know what the fuck they're talking about but think they can substitute knowledge with bluster.

As usual, you are a fucking moron.

None of these things you invoke -- property, travel, investment -- occur without the tacit consent of the CCP. This is borne out by the new 'social credit' score system that is used to determine yes, what you can buy, where you can live, and where you can go.

But that suits you, doesn't it Misty?

Tell us more about how 'free' China is. Tell us about how they don't suppress religions, or crack down on dissidents. Oh wait. You can't.

Ah yes, the continually moving line where the other guy has to prove perfection.  I never said or implied China had achieved perfect levels of freedom. I said China is more free thanks to the impacts of globalism, and to portray their workers as slaves is bullshit. It doesn't "suit me" in the sense of course I want MORE freedom for the people of China, but unquestionably the impact the U.S. was having on China with our free trade was promoting MORE FREEDOM for China. And unquestionable the pull-back in free trade with China has resulted in LESS FREEDOM in China. That is my point. Which you fully understood and had to use this ridiculous strawman to try and deflect from it.

The line hasn't moved in the slightest, you cocksucker.

You are stating a degree of freedom in China that does not fucking exist.

And you simply stating that's so doesn't make it so. Every freedom I mentioned is real and absolutely got better (or "more free") during our freer trade era with China. Many got worse when we pulled back from freer trade with China. That's not a coincidence.

I'll ask again, do you even know and talk to anyone in China? They can confirm what I am telling you.

[Ghostmaker]

I'm sure they'll confirm anything that doesn't get them vzyali'd.

Look that word up if you don't speak Russian.

In the meantime, learn to love the renminbi, you bought-and-paid-for chump.

[Ghostmaker]

While we're at it:

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202103/1218007.shtml

Social credit score used to determine who boards a subway first.

Don't fucking tell me that's the ONLY thing it's used for.

[Visitor Q]

  You mean we export the hollywood version of our culture, which is to say a corrupt, amoral, shitshow.  It did not transform China, China realized they could take on our farmed out labor at slave wages and create a "middle class", but in a nation where the poverty line is around 700 USD per year, exactly what does middle class mean?  China realized they could use greed as a powerful tool and operate much like a fascist nation now.  Freedom wise, what exactly has China changed?  They just do not have to disappear or lock as many people into concentration camps these days thanks to a quite compliant society.    China also seems to be taking more and more control of that hollywood propaganda machine...I am sure it will not be to export more american culture.  The Soviet Union was brought down for a lot of reasons, Balkanism, being an empire (with too many different cultures under one rule), and wild spending on the military at the cost of care of citizens (sound familiar?), the Soviet Union didnt collapse because of blue jeans and rock and roll.

You continue to prove, on topic after topic, that you really talk out of your ass and have no clue most of the time.  The middle class in China is very real and has very serious buying power. I know many of them. I work with them every week. Freedom-wise China changed drastically. You can now own property. You can now travel freely. You can now invest in new businesses.

Do you even fucking know a single person in China and have asked them about it? I am betting you don't. Because you're talking out of your ass based on some vague bullshit notions you've picked up from other shit talkers over the years who also don't know what the fuck they're talking about but think they can substitute knowledge with bluster.

As usual, you are a fucking moron.

None of these things you invoke -- property, travel, investment -- occur without the tacit consent of the CCP. This is borne out by the new 'social credit' score system that is used to determine yes, what you can buy, where you can live, and where you can go.

But that suits you, doesn't it Misty?

Tell us more about how 'free' China is. Tell us about how they don't suppress religions, or crack down on dissidents. Oh wait. You can't.

Ah yes, the continually moving line where the other guy has to prove perfection.  I never said or implied China had achieved perfect levels of freedom. I said China is more free thanks to the impacts of globalism, and to portray their workers as slaves is bullshit. It doesn't "suit me" in the sense of course I want MORE freedom for the people of China, but unquestionably the impact the U.S. was having on China with our free trade was promoting MORE FREEDOM for China. And unquestionable the pull-back in free trade with China has resulted in LESS FREEDOM in China. That is my point. Which you fully understood and had to use this ridiculous strawman to try and deflect from it.

The line hasn't moved in the slightest, you cocksucker.

You are stating a degree of freedom in China that does not fucking exist.

And you simply stating that's so doesn't make it so. Every freedom I mentioned is real and absolutely got better (or "more free") during our freer trade era with China. Many got worse when we pulled back from freer trade with China. That's not a coincidence.

I'll ask again, do you even know and talk to anyone in China? They can confirm what I am telling you.

I do.  Through university and my professional life, I am friends with a lot of Chinese people. Some expats now living in UK and some who returned to China.  Some of them I am close friends with.  In fact, not wanting to reveal too much personal information online but effectively they are extended family.  Full disclosure I have not had the chance to go to China (technically I passed through an airport once) nor do I speak Chinese.

I wanted to wait to comment on this topic until I had had a chance to speak to a Chinese friend who is actually on the mainland rather than one of my Chinese friends who is living in the UK (though I would also trust their opinion on this).

This person is well educated and what you might describe as new middle class in China.  I promised I would not share more information about them than this because of the obvious dangers of doing that.

I literally showed them this thread and this reply for their approval of my summation of what they said.

Their view was that to describe the Chinese people as having more freedom is a misrepresentation of the situation particularly if one is speaking to Westerners. 

In China it is true the government has permitted some of the population to do more things, start businesses etc. but they said it is important to understand that these activities benefit the government in terms of economic growth and spreading government messages/monitoring (use of internet and smart phones etc).  These activities are very much at the pleasure of the CCP government rather than a freedom as a Westerner would understand it. 

They said a better word than freedoms would be permissions.

The words they used when describing freedom and power in China were, and I will quote them, because I wrote them down

"Any power a Western government has is derived from the general population and representing them so flows up. It is understood that even when the government is exercising power the individual still has freedoms.   

In China it is the CCP, the party itself for itself, that has power.  There is no principle that says they must represent the population except the principle of power itself.  So, the power flows down. There is no sense that an individual is anymore free to do what they want than they ever were. But they have been given more permissions.  Obviously if things are made too intolerable for people, they will cause trouble. 

The fundamental legal power of the state and the government has not diminished nor has the fundamental legal freedoms of individuals improved.  However technology has allowed more connection and an understanding of what politics is like elsewhere in the world"       

I asked them to elaborate on this: They said that it was because as a matter of political principle in China there is rule by law but not rule of law.  For example, the government can still remove your right to travel or own property whenever they want for no reason.  They also pointed to continued persecution of different minority groups, religions etc which they didn't think had changed much.

As far as this person is aware there is no philosophical movement demanding freedom in China that is not heavily supressed nor have any of these groups been successful in forcing the government to provide more permissions certainly not individual freedoms. Additional permissions are very much driven by what the government wants to achieve.  They did note that because manufacturing and production is very important where workers can organise to strike (which is very dangerous if unsuccessful!) then they can leverage their power.  But again, they saw this as local or regional power politics not representation or really anything a Westerner would understand as freedom.   

They did note (maybe you would say concede) that pure Communist ideology is not pushed as much these days which means there is less ideological opposition to allowing people to do things.  Although this is as much because the super-rich in China want to be well, super rich.  Also, they said amongst the middle class there is perhaps more of a view of looking out across the world as a whole rather than being inward looking and this might start to generate a genuine desire for freedom on a more political principal basis.  For one thing there is more understanding of what happens abroad and the influence of Western educated Chinese will have an impact. 

Also as our very discussion showed the internet and the ability to communicate and connect is probably the biggest driver of any progress in China on an individual freedom front.  But many of the gains here are now probably receeding because of government awareness of what the internet can do.  Internet traffic is monitored and unfortunately Western corporations will now often cooperate with the CCP.

With regard to the word slaves, we ended up having a long discussion about what this meant as it has a wide range of connotations depending on the time period and culture.  They didn't think that it was a useful word to use in assessing how free Chinese people are either for being more or less free.  It just complicated the discussion*

Because of the above they didn't think that Trump or his administration had much impact either way on the freedoms of the Chinese people.  The Western media's own hostility towards him has probably undercut the appeal of representative democracy a bit because it is being presented as being in lockstep with the CCP's argument that democracy is dangerous.   

Finally, they didn't have a particular reason to believe the official accounts of the number of COVID cases or deaths but it is very difficult to know what has happened so couldn't speculate further.

*(In short they didn't believe there was widespread slavery in China though some effectively indentured workers and prisoners could be called this.  I disagreed because I think slavery is absolutely fundamental to Communism but this is an account of what they said not my views).

[Ghostmaker]

Slightly back on topic, but it seems Andy Cuomo is refusing to resign, despite being accused of sexual harassment as well as engineering and covering up the deaths of over 10,000 NY people in nursing homes and homes for the developmentally disabled.

This is the guy they gave an honorary Emmy to, folks. This is the guy Fauci said was 'doing everything right'.

[Shasarak]

Honestly can not believe that people think anything good about the CCP.

If you want to look at what China may have been like if they had escaped the yoke of communism then check out Taiwan.

[Pat]

Slightly back on topic, but it seems Andy Cuomo is refusing to resign, despite being accused of sexual harassment as well as engineering and covering up the deaths of over 10,000 NY people in nursing homes and homes for the developmentally disabled.

This is the guy they gave an honorary Emmy to, folks. This is the guy Fauci said was 'doing everything right'.

Nobody seems to care much about the nursing home deaths, it wasn't until the #metoo stuff came out that the calls for his resignation got serious.

[Pat]

Honestly can not believe that people think anything good about the CCP.

That's traitorous talk, Citizen. 50,000 points have been deducted from your Social Credit score. Please report to the nearest concentration camp for summary execution, and have a nice day!

[Pat]

I do.  Through university and my professional life, I am friends with a lot of Chinese people. Some expats now living in UK and some who returned to China.  Some of them I am close friends with.  In fact, not wanting to reveal too much personal information online but effectively they are extended family.  Full disclosure I have not had the chance to go to China (technically I passed through an airport once) nor do I speak Chinese.

I wanted to wait to comment on this topic until I had had a chance to speak to a Chinese friend who is actually on the mainland rather than one of my Chinese friends who is living in the UK (though I would also trust their opinion on this).

This person is well educated and what you might describe as new middle class in China.  I promised I would not share more information about them than this because of the obvious dangers of doing that.

I literally showed them this thread and this reply for their approval of my summation of what they said.

Thanks for the post. It's always useful having an inside view.

[Brad]

LOL @ anyone thinking China is a "free" country. My dissertation advisor is from China, he said he has to "watch his back" to make sure the CCP doesn't decide to contact the State Department and have his visa revoked. He said that somewhat in jest, but I'm sure there's some truth in it. I'm actually wondering how much of our conversations via Zoom are directly monitored...

[Shasarak]

Honestly can not believe that people think anything good about the CCP.

That's traitorous talk, Citizen. 50,000 points have been deducted from your Social Credit score. Please report to the nearest concentration camp for summary execution, and have a nice day!

Damn, down to my last million points.

[Kyle Aaron]

Slightly back on topic, but it seems Andy Cuomo is refusing to resign, despite being accused of sexual harassment as well as engineering and covering up the deaths of over 10,000 NY people in nursing homes and homes for the developmentally disabled.

Only the first of those things matters nowadays.

[Mistwell]

While we're at it:

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202103/1218007.shtml

Social credit score used to determine who boards a subway first.

Don't fucking tell me that's the ONLY thing it's used for.

The longer Trumps trade war policies stayed in place, the worse things got in terms of freedom in China. You realize you're proving my point, right?

Mind you, I blame Biden for not getting rid of those tariffs already.  He should have gone right to re-signing the Trans Pacific Partnership treaty. But Biden comes from that old union-supporter background so he's dragging his feat on their behalf I assume. Which sucks.