2020 Election Commentary

[HappyDaze]

Trump was engaging in style over substance when it came to the trade wars stuff.

He's always taking politics and the economy to the edge, because that's the point...that's the Trumppunk way.

[Pat]

The impact our imports had on China is a thriving middle class in China, much higher wages in China, and the ability of workers to quit and move between jobs and even strike if their factories don't pay better wages (which usually happens during Chinese New Year). All of which I watched happen over the past decade. A rising tide raises all boats, and that is what globalism does. It had the same impact in Viet Nam, who is now only about 5 years behind China for that effect. It's spreading now to Cambodia and Bangladesh and Nigeria.

Do you have some citations for China? What I've seen is that China's successes largely happened because the central government authorized local officials in certain zones to experiment. The successful ones allow a certain degree of a free market, but it's still very limited and mother-may-I. It's also highly regional, and has led to staggering disparities between provinces, because the freedoms and economic growth are concentrated in a few areas. I haven't heard much about strikes, but given how the government handles other forms of opposition, I would be very surprised if they were a widespread phenomenon.

Eventually, if we stopped fucking with it and let the market do it's thing, all "third world" nations would rise into "second world" nations and then "first world" nations. And as that happens you see freedoms dramatically increase. People spend their money on many of our cultural exports, like movies and iPhones and branded products. And they demand more freedoms when that happens. Because they see our culture, and our freedoms, and they want that for themselves now that they have the money to spend on it.

China is a counter-argument. They might want freedom, but they're not getting it.

And what you're describing has already happened. There used to be a sharp gulf between the first and third world, but since the 1970s the gulf has almost vanished. There are still disparities, but instead of two distinct groupings of rich and poor, it's now a continuous spread from poor to rich, with most nations in the middle range. The number of truly poor countries has dropped, drastically.

Hans Rosling does a good job presenting the data:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVimVzgtD6w

[moonsweeper]

The impact our imports had on China is a thriving middle class in China, much higher wages in China, and the ability of workers to quit and move between jobs and even strike if their factories don't pay better wages (which usually happens during Chinese New Year). All of which I watched happen over the past decade. A rising tide raises all boats, and that is what globalism does. It had the same impact in Viet Nam, who is now only about 5 years behind China for that effect. It's spreading now to Cambodia and Bangladesh and Nigeria.

Eventually, if we stopped fucking with it and let the market do it's thing, all "third world" nations would rise into "second world" nations and then "first world" nations. And as that happens you see freedoms dramatically increase. People spend their money on many of our cultural exports, like movies and iPhones and branded products. And they demand more freedoms when that happens. Because they see our culture, and our freedoms, and they want that for themselves now that they have the money to spend on it.

Trump fucked all this up with his nationalism and his trade wars. Freedom took a step back in some of these nations in the wake of it. Combined with our boneheaded immigration policies where somehow we started to say no to trained doctors and engineers from other nations wanting to emigrate here despite the high value of that immigration to our longterm economy, and it was just a terrible combination of anti-globalism policies.

And I disagree it was suppressing wages. You don't see manufacturing thriving here after we raised those custom taxes, all you saw was a shift from China to other nations for imports for some companies, at a slightly higher cost. As a manufacturer I can tell you the impact it had on us - the increased customs costs suppressed the wages of our other manufacturing employees who manufacture the more complicated items which we make here in the U.S.. So it had the exact opposite effect of what you thought it did for us. It's not like companies were going to suddenly start weaving and dying fabric here in the U.S. after 25 years of the U.S. not doing that. We don't have that equipment, space, warehousing, resellers, distributors, raw materials, or expertise for that anymore and it was still way cheaper to do overseas even with the higher tax than to try and restart that entire industry from scratch here. All it did was add a big tax on some businesses. With the largest impact on small businesses. Which is a boneheaded move. The whole scheme was unworkable from a logistics standpoint, crafted purely as a sales pitch to people who don't know the details of how it worked. It sounded good, like it was going to bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S., but it was not built to do that at all in a realistic sense. Why you'd trust the Government to manage something like that I will never know. Since when has the Government been good at putting together complex systems like that?

But I get the nationalism perspective. It's not that I think it's evil, I just don't think it was the wisest move for the long term health of our nation. I think it comes down to Trump was engaging in style over substance when it came to the trade wars stuff.

1.  Increased freedom in China...Should I ask any Uyghurs or HK residents about that?

2.  Most of the small business manufacturers around here were doing much better from 2016-2019 than they were in the decade previously, including the one I work for.

3.  Textile industry/China...That explains a lot.

4.   So lets go ahead and make China actually obey the international rules of trade for a nation of its economic size...somehow I think the intellectual theft, human rights abuse, and pollution output are gonna put a damper on their low prices...but I guess you didn't actually say true free trade with the same rules all around did you.

5.  Intellectual immigration...because the vast majority of the people coming here are doctors...and no one in the tech field has had to train their replacements have they...and companys don't pay them less and tell them to like it or they'll get sent home...naw, that never happens.

6.  A self-identifying Bushie neocon complaining about government overreach???...I'm not even gonna formulate a response to this.

7.  I think the 'second world' kind of disappeared with the Warsaw Pact...

[moonsweeper]

Do you have some citations for China? What I've seen is that China's successes largely happened because the central government authorized local officials in certain zones to experiment. The successful ones allow a certain degree of a free market, but it's still very limited and mother-may-I. It's also highly regional, and has led to staggering disparities between provinces, because the freedoms and economic growth are concentrated in a few areas. I haven't heard much about strikes, but given how the government handles other forms of opposition, I would be very surprised if they were a widespread phenomenon.

You are correct.  The USSR did the same think back in the day, but since there was no realtime www newscycle and we weren't trading partners, they were able to keep a tight lid on the info.
(They couldn't have any information getting out and dispelling the communism myth.)

Eventually all of the communist nations discover they need a certain amount of 'shadow' crony capitalism to generate money.  We have just been able to watch it happen live this time.

[Shasarak]

Nah, you got the roles reversed, Shasarak is arguing in good faith while you are trolling him.

You are still the monkey, HappyDaze.

The scary thing here is that these guys on the forums are apparently the health professionals that everyone is supposed to trust with regard to things like the Chinese Wuhan virus and when they lie about something as easy to check as this, well it just destroys any of their credibility.

I mean now who is going to wear a mask if Happydaze says they should?  And why would they.

What precisely do you believe I have lied about, you dishonest little bitch?

See, we can all call each other dishonest and completely dismiss anything the other says. It's the way things work here.

Yeah I am the dishonest one.

Sorry not teaching pigs to sing today.

[HappyDaze]

Yeah I am the dishonest one.

Admitting you are the problem is the first step, but only if you're honest about it...

[Shasarak]

Uh huh.

[Spinachcat]

What's that sound?

"Biden won! There's no fraud! Trump must concede!"

Nope. That's the babble of cucks whose idea of rebellion is lip-syncing to Silicon Valley oligarchs.

Listen for that other sound.

"Electors voted! Everything's done! Nothing can change after today!"

Nope. That's idiot noise for those haven't read the Constitution.

"But 40 gazillion GOP members already congratulated Biden and say its over."

RINOs and doomers are Republicans. We are MAGA. Totally different political party. Sorry for the confusion. Among many other things, that will be sorted out in due time.

Listen closely...

2,000,000 Chinese spies unmasked.
Dominion computer fraud verified.
AG Bill "DNC Protector" Barr fired.
2018 Executive Order on Foreign Election Interference activates by December 18th.

Just in case you haven't heard about that last one...
https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-imposing-certain-sanctions-event-foreign-interference-united-states-election/

[jhkim]

Well, the Electoral College has now convened and elected Biden in at over 300 votes. I realize that doesn't change people's minds about the presence of election fraud. However, a number of posters were insistent that Trump had a master plan and would successfully win his way to a second term such as through the lawsuits. That seems far less likely now.

Following up from Reply #1901, where EOTB compared me to Crowder:

And of course we all laugh at these crowder sketches, but we also all laugh because we know they won't be able to change crowder's mind; what is humorous is that they try and fail miserably.  The joke is literally that people would try to change crowder's mind with information he doesn't consider credible at a basic level. 

Just be aware that you are the person walking up to the table trying to change jhkim's mind. 

Unless those charged can't come up with some plausibly-sounding defense, or some assertion that they did in fact follow the laws, then nothing has to change jhkim's mind.  His standard for agreeing with you is not preponderance of whether there's something stinks here, it's something so open and shut no defense lawyer would think worth any amount of money to front a bullshit defense - or even a simple denial - over.   It would have to be something where the "defendant" said, OK, you got me.  I plead guilty and hope for mercy.

Nothing wrong with taking that stance.  Others should be aware they're walking up to Crowder's table, is all.

I haven't been convinced by the "stole the election" arguments, but in general in this forum - there are times when I've conceded points and/or apologized. Like everyone, I have my own biases, but I try to check them regularly.

Honestly, I came into this prepared to concede a number of points of "Yeah that looks like fruad" - but just not enough fraud to turn the election. There are dozens of cases of fraud every election year. My impression coming in is that Democrats more often are found guilty of fraudulent votes, while Republicans are more often guilty of illegal vote suppression. However, I have been underwhelmed by the evidence presented here.

I had a chance to look over the Cicchetti declaration -- it's just 10 pages (it is pages 20 to 29 of the document below). Consolcwby dismissed the Reason.com analysis because he notes that they have had liberal funding, but that's just attacking the source. Reading the actual filing, it seems to me that their analysis is entirely accurate.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/22/22O155/163048/20201208132827887_TX-v-State-ExpedMot%202020-12-07%20FINAL.pdf

The assumptions are first, that votes should be the same between Clinton in 2016 and Biden in 2020; and second, that every part of the state (and in-person vs absent voting) should have the same distribution of votes. Neither of those are legitimate assumptions.

But jhkim's assertion that if the DOD/CIA had a shooting incident, that this would be dutifully publicized is likewise ridiculous on its face.  I have no idea if that ever happened and don't expect to ever receive a "yes it did".

OK, fair enough. My argument there was overstated. It's not a given - so I could see that it might be covered up. And yet, it was stated that the raid was for the purpose of exposing the election fraud, and that it was successful. I would think that with Trump still as commander-in-chief, he would have access to the revealed material and would want to publicize that proof. I realize that not all military decisions make sense, but it seems like a major unexplained point.

The point being, I'm doubtful about McInerny's testimony on this point. You claim that you have no idea if it happened, which suggests to me that you doubt his testimony as well. I don't get it. If you doubt his testimony too, why is it stubborn intransigence for me to doubt his testimony?

[consolcwby]

Well, the Electoral College has now convened and elected Biden in at over 300 votes. I realize that doesn't change people's minds about the presence of election fraud. However, a number of posters were insistent that Trump had a master plan and would successfully win his way to a second term such as through the lawsuits. That seems far less likely now.

Following up from Reply #1901, where EOTB compared me to Crowder:
----snipppp----

But jhkim's assertion that if the DOD/CIA had a shooting incident, that this would be dutifully publicized is likewise ridiculous on its face.  I have no idea if that ever happened and don't expect to ever receive a "yes it did".

OK, fair enough. My argument there was overstated. It's not a given - so I could see that it might be covered up. And yet, it was stated that the raid was for the purpose of exposing the election fraud, and that it was successful. I would think that with Trump still as commander-in-chief, he would have access to the revealed material and would want to publicize that proof. I realize that not all military decisions make sense, but it seems like a major unexplained point.

The point being, I'm doubtful about McInerny's testimony on this point. You claim that you have no idea if it happened, which suggests to me that you doubt his testimony as well. I don't get it. If you doubt his testimony too, why is it stubborn intransigence for me to doubt his testimony?

Congrats. My last message:
CONCOMMS:

https://swp59.wordpress.com/2020/12/09/cdc-plans-covid-gulag-an-unspecified-number-of-americans-will-be-classified-as-high-risk-for-covid-19-in-2021-and-sent-willing-or-unwilling-to-internment-camps-until-such-time-as-the-government/

See? You won.

[consolcwby]

WHY - OH WHY - HAVE I GIVEN UP???
(spoilers: i haven't.)
=================================
INFO INFO INFO:
---------------
Social Media (SM) is now censoring ANY discussion of the kind, like we are having in this thread! The Mainstream Media (MSM) are now the only ones with a VOICE! Even those here wish to SILENCE DISSENT! Will it work? WILL I BE silenced? Here is some interesting ON-TOPIC finds from today:

https://twitter.com/LLinWood/status/1338214339447296003
The MSM will continue with their narrative, they will   tell you that today all of the states sent electors for Joe Biden and its all over. This is why the SM changed their terms of service, they don't want anyone interfering with their narrative.   Remember their are  competing slates of electors that are being sent in many contested states.

Read the whole thread:
https://twitter.com/TheKBTweets/status/1337777807565393924

NV PA & GA are sending  Congress a "dueling slate of Electors. Today, Trump electors, from the state of Michigan, were denied entry to the Michigan State Capitol after Governor Whitmer and other officials sent 200+ troops to guard the building. The [DS] players are panicking, they are sending messages:
https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/1338548429753081868
The CLOCK behind Clinton reads 12:10...
The CONSTITUTION, 12 AMENDMENT - LINE 10:

The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. [And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.–]

https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-12/

BUT,WHY are they panicking? The Dominion systems forensenic audit report was released.
https://twitter.com/Wizard_Predicts/status/1338495676322353153
https://twitter.com/IvanPentchoukov/status/1338505355463188482
Here is the report: https://www.depernolaw.com/uploads/2/7/0/2/27029178/antrim_michigan_forensics_report_[121320]_v2_[redacted].pdf

Also: https://www.theepochtimes.com/dominion-voting-systems-uses-firm-that-was-hacked_3617507.html
A company that provides voting systems in 28 states uses an Internet technology firm that was hacked.
Dominion Voting Systems uses SolarWinds software, a SolarWinds does not list Dominion on its partial customer listing but says its products and services are used by more than 300,000 customers around the world, including all five branches of the U.S. military and more than 425 of the U.S. Fortune 500. The situation with SolarWinds software enabled hackers to gain access to the U.S. Commerce Department and, reportedly, the Treasury Department. SolarWinds Orion products are currently being exploited by malicious actors, the Department of Homeland Security's Cybersecurity & Infrastructure Agency (CISA) said. The tactic lets an attacker gain access to network traffic management systems. The only known mitigation measure currently available is to disconnect affected devices, according to the agency.

Where did I first hear about this? The MAN who is NO LONGER SILENCED: https://twitter.com/GenFlynn/status/1338457125270523904
The MSM is going to try to connect this to Russia,  Crowdstrike is commenting on the breach: RUSSIA 2.0
https://twitter.com/HisBlakeness/status/1338183513330360326
I agree with MY MONKEY! As Jeff puts it: DANCE DANCE! https://twitter.com/CodeMonkeyZ/status/1338481197693825025

Is Trump playing the Trump card, he allowed the enemy to walk through the door, actually the entire swamp walked through the door, everyone went all in, Trump is now going to be calling it, those who knowingly went all in on election fraud are done for. Newly appointed special counsel John Durham is expanding his team as he continues his investigation into the origins of the Trump-Russia investigation and the conduct of law enforcement and intelligence officials involved in it. Durham , has expanded his investigative team and is adding new prosecutors! https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/john-durham-adds-prosecutors-special-counsel

Oh, by the way, What are YOU gonna do when GOD TURNS OUT THE LIGHTS?? https://dailybuzzlive.com/alert-nasa-confirms-earth-will-go-dark-6-days-december/

fnord.

[Tubesock Army]

https://swp59.wordpress.com/2020/12/09/cdc-plans-covid-gulag-an-unspecified-number-of-americans-will-be-classified-as-high-risk-for-covid-19-in-2021-and-sent-willing-or-unwilling-to-internment-camps-until-such-time-as-the-government/

A WordPress blog written by a woman who, the day after writing this ridiculous post, urged her readers to check out The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. Are you serious? Are you a diagnosed schizophrenic? Serious question, I'm not even taking the piss. Because your posts are really... something.

Also bookmarking the garbage about Gulags so I can laugh at it again later.

[Tubesock Army]

Oh, also, Smartmatic has sued Fox, OANN and Newsmax. The discovery phase'll be hilarious.

[consolcwby]

https://swp59.wordpress.com/2020/12/09/cdc-plans-covid-gulag-an-unspecified-number-of-americans-will-be-classified-as-high-risk-for-covid-19-in-2021-and-sent-willing-or-unwilling-to-internment-camps-until-such-time-as-the-government/

A WordPress blog written by a woman who, the day after writing this ridiculous post, urged her readers to check out The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. Are you serious? Are you a diagnosed schizophrenic? Serious question, I'm not even taking the piss. Because your posts are really... something.

Also bookmarking the garbage about Gulags so I can laugh at it again later.

GOTCHA!

[Mistwell]

WHY - OH WHY - HAVE I GIVEN UP???
(spoilers: i haven't.)
=================================
INFO INFO INFO:
---------------
Social Media (SM) is now censoring ANY discussion of the kind, like we are having in this thread! The Mainstream Media (MSM) are now the only ones with a VOICE! Even those here wish to SILENCE DISSENT! Will it work? WILL I BE silenced? Here is some interesting ON-TOPIC finds from today:

https://twitter.com/LLinWood/status/1338214339447296003
The MSM will continue with their narrative, they will   tell you that today all of the states sent electors for Joe Biden and its all over. This is why the SM changed their terms of service, they don't want anyone interfering with their narrative.   Remember their are  competing slates of electors that are being sent in many contested states.

Read the whole thread:
https://twitter.com/TheKBTweets/status/1337777807565393924

NV PA & GA are sending  Congress a "dueling slate of Electors. Today, Trump electors, from the state of Michigan, were denied entry to the Michigan State Capitol after Governor Whitmer and other officials sent 200+ troops to guard the building. The [DS] players are panicking, they are sending messages:
https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/1338548429753081868
The CLOCK behind Clinton reads 12:10...
The CONSTITUTION, 12 AMENDMENT - LINE 10:

The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. [And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.–]

https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-12/

BUT,WHY are they panicking? The Dominion systems forensenic audit report was released.
https://twitter.com/Wizard_Predicts/status/1338495676322353153
https://twitter.com/IvanPentchoukov/status/1338505355463188482
Here is the report: https://www.depernolaw.com/uploads/2/7/0/2/27029178/antrim_michigan_forensics_report_[121320]_v2_[redacted].pdf

Also: https://www.theepochtimes.com/dominion-voting-systems-uses-firm-that-was-hacked_3617507.html
A company that provides voting systems in 28 states uses an Internet technology firm that was hacked.
Dominion Voting Systems uses SolarWinds software, a SolarWinds does not list Dominion on its partial customer listing but says its products and services are used by more than 300,000 customers around the world, including all five branches of the U.S. military and more than 425 of the U.S. Fortune 500. The situation with SolarWinds software enabled hackers to gain access to the U.S. Commerce Department and, reportedly, the Treasury Department. SolarWinds Orion products are currently being exploited by malicious actors, the Department of Homeland Security's Cybersecurity & Infrastructure Agency (CISA) said. The tactic lets an attacker gain access to network traffic management systems. The only known mitigation measure currently available is to disconnect affected devices, according to the agency.

Where did I first hear about this? The MAN who is NO LONGER SILENCED: https://twitter.com/GenFlynn/status/1338457125270523904
The MSM is going to try to connect this to Russia,  Crowdstrike is commenting on the breach: RUSSIA 2.0
https://twitter.com/HisBlakeness/status/1338183513330360326
I agree with MY MONKEY! As Jeff puts it: DANCE DANCE! https://twitter.com/CodeMonkeyZ/status/1338481197693825025

Is Trump playing the Trump card, he allowed the enemy to walk through the door, actually the entire swamp walked through the door, everyone went all in, Trump is now going to be calling it, those who knowingly went all in on election fraud are done for. Newly appointed special counsel John Durham is expanding his team as he continues his investigation into the origins of the Trump-Russia investigation and the conduct of law enforcement and intelligence officials involved in it. Durham , has expanded his investigative team and is adding new prosecutors! https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/john-durham-adds-prosecutors-special-counsel

Oh, by the way, What are YOU gonna do when GOD TURNS OUT THE LIGHTS?? https://dailybuzzlive.com/alert-nasa-confirms-earth-will-go-dark-6-days-december/

fnord.

For alternate electors to do anything, they would need at least a majority of the House to vote that way.

But, Democrats have a majority of the House. There is no prayer, no prayer at all, they would vote for Trump.

So unless you can show me how the House will vote for Trump to override the primary electors and go with the secondary electors, it is in fact over.