2020 Election Commentary

[jhkim]

I tend to agree with oggsmash though from a different perspective. Increasingly, we're moving into hyper-partisan territory where both liberals and conservatives only believe their own information sources that match their politics. Often this results in extremes where *both* mainstreams are wrong by only promoting an exaggerated reality.

I personally agree that investigations and lawsuits should move forward. There are some other calls like this, such as this Washington Post editorial:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/11/12/lawsuits-trump-election-false-claims/


But largely, people have already made up their mind based on their partisan leaning. Even after the lawsuits happen - if the results are decided against Trump, I'm sure most Trump supporters will say that the verdict was rigged the same way the election was rigged.

In my dreams, I'd hope that maybe Republicans and Democrats could agree to pass bipartisan election reforms by packaging together some different things like anti-gerrymandering mandates and additional funding for security. But since neither side has pushed for significant election reforms so far, I doubt this will happen.

No, our perspectives are pretty much exactly aligned here.  I hold no thoughts of fraud, I want it looked at in detail, but the "steal" was when we mass mail ballots.  There is no way, on this earth, to ensure integrity on that.   Every ballot may be 100 percent legitimate.  Most mail-ins may be 100 percent legit.  half could be, we will all never know, because they are extremely vulnerable to fraud, and the moment they were sent out, that was the rubicon, there was no way to ensure enough integrity for whatever resulted to be in any way calm.  There is a reason LOTS of countries require in person, ID voting and inking your thumb after the fact and absentees are by specific request with a chain of custody.  Not only to prevent fraud, but to ensure confidence with the public that there is no appearance of skullduggery.  Here, I agree with you no matter what turns up in court, its a disaster.

OK, I'm glad we are partly aligned, then.

Regarding mail-in ballots, I had a dilemma about this for this election. I've voted by mail for years. But this year - inspired by worried noises from my friends - I put my ballot in a special drop box in front of City Hall - thinking that was more secure than putting it in the mail. Later, though, I read about a number of incidents where people tried to burn or blow up ballot collection boxes - and it occurred to me that there was probably more physical security around mail than there was around that drop box.

And of course, even in-person polling stations typically just have a handful of low-paid elderly people watching over the ballot boxes, which doesn't seem particularly more secure than the mail -- and easier to target. It's not like it's Fort Knox. Someone could definitely forge a counterfeit ballot and envelope; forge my signature; and intercept and replace the mail-in ballot. But I'm not sure that's significantly easier than suborning or fooling the ballot workers at a polling place - which has been done in a number of cases.

So I don't think it's nearly as different as you suggest - which is why states like Utah and countries like Switzerland adopted all-postal voting. I agree that there is less physical security, but it's not as black and white as you seem to be saying.

[rawma]

Also, what would a Biden cabinet look like?

Non-criminal. Non-nepotistic. Competent.

[oggsmash]

Also, what would a Biden cabinet look like?

Non-criminal. Non-nepotistic. Competent.

Somehow different from every other presidential cabinet since WWII?   I have my doubts, especially with a guy who has been in washington for his entire adult working life.  I think his cabinet is coming straight over from K street. 

[oggsmash]

I tend to agree with oggsmash though from a different perspective. Increasingly, we're moving into hyper-partisan territory where both liberals and conservatives only believe their own information sources that match their politics. Often this results in extremes where *both* mainstreams are wrong by only promoting an exaggerated reality.

I personally agree that investigations and lawsuits should move forward. There are some other calls like this, such as this Washington Post editorial:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/11/12/lawsuits-trump-election-false-claims/


But largely, people have already made up their mind based on their partisan leaning. Even after the lawsuits happen - if the results are decided against Trump, I'm sure most Trump supporters will say that the verdict was rigged the same way the election was rigged.

In my dreams, I'd hope that maybe Republicans and Democrats could agree to pass bipartisan election reforms by packaging together some different things like anti-gerrymandering mandates and additional funding for security. But since neither side has pushed for significant election reforms so far, I doubt this will happen.

No, our perspectives are pretty much exactly aligned here.  I hold no thoughts of fraud, I want it looked at in detail, but the "steal" was when we mass mail ballots.  There is no way, on this earth, to ensure integrity on that.   Every ballot may be 100 percent legitimate.  Most mail-ins may be 100 percent legit.  half could be, we will all never know, because they are extremely vulnerable to fraud, and the moment they were sent out, that was the rubicon, there was no way to ensure enough integrity for whatever resulted to be in any way calm.  There is a reason LOTS of countries require in person, ID voting and inking your thumb after the fact and absentees are by specific request with a chain of custody.  Not only to prevent fraud, but to ensure confidence with the public that there is no appearance of skullduggery.  Here, I agree with you no matter what turns up in court, its a disaster.

OK, I'm glad we are partly aligned, then.

Regarding mail-in ballots, I had a dilemma about this for this election. I've voted by mail for years. But this year - inspired by worried noises from my friends - I put my ballot in a special drop box in front of City Hall - thinking that was more secure than putting it in the mail. Later, though, I read about a number of incidents where people tried to burn or blow up ballot collection boxes - and it occurred to me that there was probably more physical security around mail than there was around that drop box.

And of course, even in-person polling stations typically just have a handful of low-paid elderly people watching over the ballot boxes, which doesn't seem particularly more secure than the mail -- and easier to target. It's not like it's Fort Knox. Someone could definitely forge a counterfeit ballot and envelope; forge my signature; and intercept and replace the mail-in ballot. But I'm not sure that's significantly easier than suborning or fooling the ballot workers at a polling place - which has been done in a number of cases.

So I don't think it's nearly as different as you suggest - which is why states like Utah and countries like Switzerland adopted all-postal voting. I agree that there is less physical security, but it's not as black and white as you seem to be saying.

It is as black and white regarding the public PERCEPTION.  Which was the point I made, not whether it is or is not secure. 

[rawma]

EDIT: Sorry, gonna have to try harder than that, shill: https://thepostmillennial.com/project-veritasproject-veritas-releases-recorded-coercing-of-usps-whistleblower-during-federal-interrogation

No recording of the questioning? Not surprised, just bored.

Complete rickroll fail. That's like just asking for store hours after they say that, yes, they do have Prince Albert in a Can and just giggling later about not shopping there.

[jhkim]

It is as black and white regarding the public PERCEPTION.  Which was the point I made, not whether it is or is not secure.

OK, fair enough. I myself got caught up enough to not use the mail this election, so I've suffered from this too. It's definitely a real issue. Still, they trusted it enough to implement all-postal voting in some places like Utah and Switzerland. So it's not an absolute that all public trust ends with implementing it.

[rawma]

Increasingly, we're moving into hyper-partisan territory where both liberals and conservatives only believe their own information sources that match their politics.

But largely, people have already made up their mind based on their partisan leaning.

I was open to the possibility of Wisconsin changing back to Trump, but Scott Walker, former Republican governor in charge of gerrymandering and voter suppression, persuaded me a Wisconsin recount could never swing 20,000 votes. Listen to all sides, in order to laugh at the stupid conservatives, is my practice, and occasionally you learn something new.

[jhkim]

EDIT: Sorry, gonna have to try harder than that, shill: https://thepostmillennial.com/project-veritasproject-veritas-releases-recorded-coercing-of-usps-whistleblower-during-federal-interrogation

No recording of the questioning? Not surprised, just bored.

Complete rickroll fail. That's like just asking for store hours after they say that, yes, they do have Prince Albert in a Can and just giggling later about not shopping there.

rawma - They released the recording of the questioning. Here's the Project Veritas story:

https://www.projectveritas.com/news/raw-audio-of-usps-investigators-interrogating-usps-whistleblower-richard/

And here's the recording,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkNkQ2nDQfc&feature=youtu.be

Warnings: It's two hours long, I haven't listened to it yet, and I don't know if it's been edited. But they did release something. I'd say it's up in the air at this point. Project Veritas head O'Keefe has been legally determined to have made deceptive claims earlier, like in 2013 when he was forced to apologize and pay $100,000 to settle a lawsuit by former ACORN employee Juan Vera. But other times, it seems like his claims were substantial.

[Shasarak]

Also, what would a Biden cabinet look like?

Non-criminal. Non-nepotistic. Competent.

Say what you will about the evils of Nepotism because on the other hand we have peace in the Middle East.

[rawma]

Since we are moving on to calling one another names, would you like my home address so you can stop by some time and say the same thing to me in person?  If not, perhaps we should attempt to maintain some small modicum of decorum?

Trump supporters are angry after his loss in 2020. Even on this site, Trump supporters were angry after his victory in 2016. (Remember Crüesader wishing death for people even though his candidate won?) Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

rawma - They released the recording of the questioning. Here's the Project Veritas story:

https://www.projectveritas.com/news/raw-audio-of-usps-investigators-interrogating-usps-whistleblower-richard/

And here's the recording,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkNkQ2nDQfc&feature=youtu.be

Fair enough.

Warnings: It's two hours long, I haven't listened to it yet, and I don't know if it's been edited. But they did release something. I'd say it's up in the air at this point. Project Veritas head O'Keefe has been legally determined to have made deceptive claims earlier, like in 2013 when he was forced to apologize and pay $100,000 to settle a lawsuit by former ACORN employee Juan Vera. But other times, it seems like his claims were substantial.

Also, O'Keefe plead guilty to a misdemeanor with three years probation over trying to enter Senator Landrieu's office in disguise. Good for a laugh, like the time he forgot to hang up on Open Society Foundations and then explaining the planned sting to his associates. A move worthy of Rudy. Most of his stuff is deceptively edited to go beyond what's substantial, if anything.

But two hours does exceed my willingness to listen to stuff like that. I had enough energy to look at Brad's link but couldn't find the promised recording.

[rawma]

Also, what would a Biden cabinet look like?

Non-criminal. Non-nepotistic. Competent.

Somehow different from every other presidential cabinet since WWII?   I have my doubts, especially with a guy who has been in washington for his entire adult working life.  I think his cabinet is coming straight over from K street.

Criminal? Not the Obama administration.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jan/09/facebook-posts/many-more-criminal-indictments-under-trump-reagan-/

Nepotistic? Up until 2017, presidents complied with the 1967 anti-nepotism statute; the Trump administration decided it didn't apply to them.

Competent? Easily so just by comparison. Still laughing at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping press conference.

Say what you will about the evils of Nepotism because on the other hand we have peace in the Middle East.

Billy Carter arranged the Camp David Accords? Or Roger Clinton gets credit for the Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty?

Oh, you mean normalization of relations between Israel and countries that never fought wars with Israel. 

[Hawkwing7423]

Criminal? Not the Obama administration.

LMAO, Fast and Furious, IRS Scandal, persecuting AP reporters never happened in Rawma's world. It wasn't criminal because (D) but it should have been.
There can't be reconciliation of the partisan divide if each side cannot in almost any way agree on what reality is.

[Snowman0147]

Guys why not put these assholes in your ignore list?  They clearly want to waste your time and have nothing to say.  They are trolls.

[Spinachcat]

It is totally FAKE NEWS that Georgia is doing a recount...by hand. LOL.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/georgia-set-to-start-historic-hand-recount-and-audit-in-presidential-race

Since we are moving on to calling one another names, would you like my home address so you can stop by some time and say the same thing to me in person?  If not, perhaps we should attempt to maintain some small modicum of decorum?

A) I'll stop by if you promise you'll have cake. I like cake. And beer!

But not while eating cake. That's what sherry is for.

B) This is theRPGsite. Decorum, even in small modicums, isn't our style.

[Spinachcat]

Guys why not put these assholes in your ignore list?

But the asshole is the most chewy part of the chew toy!!

And they have the right to express themselves. This is a free speech forum and if I expect others to read my blather, the least I can do is read their blather.

Also, I welcome their babble and nonsense because HERE they can say whatever they want without fear they might get banned for their words.

Plus, LOLZ is my favorite food group!