Ok, so this is a hypothetical here: why is it, how do you justify to a player, that basic pattern imprint is worth half of his available starting points?
I mean, as far as a power goes, how is it useful other than to let you travel unlimited shadow? And I mean, that's cool, right, and the little bits of shadow manipulation seem cool, and you can kind of use it for defense (if you do fuck all else), but really compared to other, cheaper powers, it seems to suck ass apart from the "Unlimited travel" deal.
Shapeshifting, logrus, or even sorcery all seem more overall versatile in their usability.
RPGPundit
IMNSHO it isn't ;)
Protection from logrus is awesome.
Other that that... Pffff
Say, it is the fastest shadow travel method, it allows you to manipulate probabilities on a fine scale without your opponent noticing, to defend yourself against most psychic attacks, to find almost anything in shadow, and also to follow a shadow trail.
Croaker, Devil's Advocate.
Quote from: Croaker;298830Protection from logrus is awesome.
But it also hurts your character...
I suspect that a big part is that it buys you into the royal house of Amber. It may be that the question is not why is pattern so expensive but why is Amber devotee so cheap?
Quote from: JongWK;298835But it also hurts your character...
Are you sure???
Quote from: weilide;298837I suspect that a big part is that it buys you into the royal house of Amber. It may be that the question is not why is pattern so expensive but why is Amber devotee so cheap?
Because this comes with free ennemies?
Quote from: Croaker;298869Are you sure???
Because this comes with free ennemies?
Well, I prefer to think of them as story delivery vehicles. But the free room and board is also nice.
Quote from: Croaker;298869Are you sure???
That's how it happened in the campaign I'm playing. A logrus tendril grabbed my character, and he summoned Pattern to disrupt it. What happened was that he was left so exhausted by the disruption that he could barely do anything else. The GM said that both sides get hurt, based on Psyche--so using Pattern against a strong Logrus Master seems like a one-way ticket to trouble.
I like Croaker's thought, a good GM talent is being able to build up whatever you need to in order to get the PC interested. His explanation got my interest.
It is a valid question... I mean... 1/2 yer points is A LOT.
I remember reading some thoughts posted about downgrading the price of Pattern in a Chaos-based campaign. I could see some logic in that if the GM deemed it thus.
In an Amber-based game though, the best argument for getting Pattern I think is; "Cause your siblings are getting it, don't be the 'lame' Amberite"
Of course, there are other ways around it to make an effective character, but it will always look & act like 'Pattern-lite'. In some situations, you may have to depend on your siblings Pattern Power.
Another reason is the ability to describe the twisting of reality and getting the manipulation of shadow. The only true power that compares is Logrus, and that costs alot more to get effectively.
Quote from: JongWK;298898That's how it happened in the campaign I'm playing. A logrus tendril grabbed my character, and he summoned Pattern to disrupt it. What happened was that he was left so exhausted by the disruption that he could barely do anything else. The GM said that both sides get hurt, based on Psyche--so using Pattern against a strong Logrus Master seems like a one-way ticket to trouble.
Then, I may be wrong, but this seem to be campain-specific.
IIRC, in ADRPG, Pattern provides near to absolute protection vs Logrus
Quote from: JongWK;298898That's how it happened in the campaign I'm playing. A logrus tendril grabbed my character, and he summoned Pattern to disrupt it. What happened was that he was left so exhausted by the disruption that he could barely do anything else. The GM said that both sides get hurt, based on Psyche--so using Pattern against a strong Logrus Master seems like a one-way ticket to trouble.
Yeah, but if it was really THAT BAD, imagine what it would have been like
without Pattern. :D
Quote from: Croaker;298954Then, I may be wrong, but this seem to be campain-specific.
IIRC, in ADRPG, Pattern provides near to absolute protection vs Logrus
OTOH even Corwin had massive headaches when he forced his way through the black road. "Absolute protection" != painless.
I said "in ADRPG" ;)
The corebook talks about Logrus vulnerability to Pattern (p47, and probably more). IIRC, nowhere does it states any vulnerability of Pattern to Logrus energies.
As per corwin, I never saw this as confrontation with Logrus, but rather as an effort to alter a too real segment of shadow
Quote from: Croaker;299036As per corwin, I never saw this as confrontation with Logrus, but rather as an effort to alter a too real segment of shadow
I'm not buying that. If it was just some odd shadow substance slowing his progression why did he have to summon an image of the pattern in order to force the way ? The black road isn't the Logrus, but there's a link.
I hear ya Croaker
"an all too REAL segment"
He's not saying the substance wasn't real, it was.
However the Shadow (realm) was shadow.
Being that it was linked to Chaos, and Logrus created most likely, the Pattern was able to erase it... just the section he walked across. There was strain, but he had the will and endurance to do it.
Exactly, that's how I saw the black road. A sort of Real Infection of Shadow. This is also why shadow powers were useless against it. Thanks a lot :)
Note also that, since it was created partly due to Corwin's curse, there was an added difficulty there, especially for him.
Pattern is not worth 50 points. This is true from a game perspective vis a vis power, flexibility etc but it's it even more true from the perspective of the books.
You need no training to walk the Pattern, Coral and Dara prove that. There is no need to 'learn the last of Dworkin's lore ' etc .
To me this is one of the best drivers for Partial powers. You get Pattern for 10 points. but all you can do with it is a standard shadow walk. You want to do fancy stuff like manipulate probability, or track someone well that you have to learn.
I can only assume that when Erick was designing the game he wanted to make Pattern the coolest power because Corwin, the coolest character in the books doesn't seem to have access to much else (hotfoot cantrips aside.
If you look at the Merlin cycle and the way Merlin uses his powers Pattern is something that is very background like a standard tool. He makes much more use of sorcery, trump and logrus when he wants to achieve a particular goal.
I woudl ahve Pattern as a huge potential power you can tap into for all sorts of stuff, but players have to learn that stuff (using pattern to power your endurance, empower items, as the driver for your spells etc etc) separately and it costs time effort and points.
I doubt there is a simple logical justification to be found inside the books to why Pattern is worth 50 points. I don't understand the need to link the price tags of powers with how difficult they are to acquire. There's no inner truth about Amber multiverse to be found in the hierarchy of powers and their costs.
QuoteI can only assume that when Erick was designing the game he wanted to make Pattern the coolest power because Corwin, the coolest character in the books doesn't seem to have access to much else (hotfoot cantrips aside
It is the "coolest" power. It is the Pattern that enables a prince to raise armies. It is the Pattern which shaped the personality of the family. The delusion of divinity, the self enticement to a greater role, to be a conductor for all creation and all subjects. Since I can't find a logical cause inside the fiction for those odd 50 points, it has to be symbolic, it must be about narrative significance.
But the ease of acquiring Pattern can act as a game breaker. The player that doesn't bother to buy pattern but starts in amber with roayl blood and just walks it. Yeah they have 50 points of bad stuff but how can you seriously differentiate between 50 and 25 or even 10 points.
The partial power solution gets round this and there is enough Stuff you could in theory do with Pattern to make the basic package have 50 points worth of things in but these are not things that a user can do out of the bag.
I think the ability to acquire stuff shoudl be linked to its power and cost.
Yes Pattern can get you an army on the chaeap but there are many ways to raise an army. I could summon one with magic, pluck them from shadow with logrus, I could even draw a trump of them.
I admit you've got kind of a point with the example of a PC of royal blood who didn't pay for Pattern. But one could turn the argument around and say : "if the PC hasn't secured those 50 points maybe he/she isn't of royal blood after all ?"
Quote from: boulet;299113I admit you've got kind of a point with the example of a PC of royal blood who didn't pay for Pattern. But one could turn the argument around and say : "if the PC hasn't secured those 50 points maybe he/she isn't of royal blood after all ?"
But then you are saying being of the house of Dworkin costs 50 points and you can buy that for 6 :-)
I just think the whole cost of powers is an advert for a partial power
Not hurt so much as tiring to focus the concentration on the pattern. It HURTS the Logrus user.
Focusing on the pattern takes time and effort, though in my campaign you can do it faster if you have enough psyche, but it will be more exhausting. While you have focused on Pattern Defense, you are pretty well immune to the logrus, but you have to keep up the concentration, and can't really do much of anything else very effectively (unless you're a stat GOD like some Elders might be).
RPGPundit
Quote from: Croaker;299036I said "in ADRPG" ;)
The corebook talks about Logrus vulnerability to Pattern (p47, and probably more). IIRC, nowhere does it states any vulnerability of Pattern to Logrus energies.
As per corwin, I never saw this as confrontation with Logrus, but rather as an effort to alter a too real segment of shadow
The corebook does talk about how difficult it is to bring up and maintain Pattern Defense.
Yes, in my campaign there is a bit of elaboration on that idea. On the other hand, in my campaign you can bring up Pattern Defense quicker than you ought to be able to according to the rulebook, and you can walk the pattern for free without incurring bad stuff.
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Quote from: weilide;298837I suspect that a big part is that it buys you into the royal house of Amber. It may be that the question is not why is pattern so expensive but why is Amber devotee so cheap?
I would say mainly because you have very little control over this purchase. You don't get to pick your devotee, you don't even get to know who your devotee is (though you can guess) and you don't get to pick exactly how your Devotee's devotion for you manifests.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Croaker;299085Exactly, that's how I saw the black road. A sort of Real Infection of Shadow. This is also why shadow powers were useless against it. Thanks a lot :)
Note also that, since it was created partly due to Corwin's curse, there was an added difficulty there, especially for him.
Or perhaps it was easier for him that it was his curse, and another Amberite may have had the more difficult time of it....
Quote from: RPGPundit;299209Not hurt so much as tiring to focus the concentration on the pattern. It HURTS the Logrus user.
Yup! :)
So the point is that pattern defense is still going to be a winning proposition in a one-on-one fight between an amberite and a logrus master. You'll get tired, but he'll be fried, and out of the two of you the chaosian will always be the one who ends up worse off.
Of course, this being Amber there are always ways around that. If the Logrus user manages to keep you distracted, if he's preventing you from having the time needed to concentrate on the pattern, or if he attacks you without actually making physical contact, you could still be fucked.
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Do you guys consider that this superiority of the Pattern over the Logrus may change depending if the confrontation happens close to the Court of Chaos ?
I don't really see it that way; though I imagine that an Advanced Logrus master may have certain safeguards that he might be able to rely on; though even those would depend on finding a way to make an attack without directly entering into contact with the Pattern.
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IMO, the Pattern protects even without concentrating on it, with direct contact with an Amberite concentrating on it being worse. How else could Amber have won the war against Chaos?
P47: "Any time the logrus, or any of its tendrils, come into contact with something containing Pattern (like an Amberite), it sends a shockwave through the entire logrus construct. The sensation will instantly travel along the tendril, and disrupt what the logrus master has brought to mind, as well as conveying a rather nasty headache".
Note that it doesn't talk about an amberite concentrating on Pattern, just an amberite, because, well, an amberite contains pattern in its blood, just as a trump disrupts Logrus without you having to use Trump Defense (see below, logrus-trump contact). This isn't dangerous to the Amberite or Logrus Master, but will certainly nullify the latter's advantage and even the odds. This, to me, is one of the great advantages of basic pattern imprint: It forces all those logrus masters with high psyche to either attack indirectly (in which case, you can use warfare to dodge and all), or confront you directly (and then, their high psyche means nothing)
And when you actively concentrate on your Pattern Defense? See just below:
Still p47: "Using a logrus tendril to touch the pattern, can cause severe dammage, or even death".
While I don't see Pattern Defense being as worse as a direct contact with the Pattern itself, I see it as a close second.
This also has the advantage of explaining nicely how all those Chaos Lords could be defeated by a few amberites.
I also see Pattern Defense as able to protect you (but nothing else) against Primal Chaos, although this'll be a tough feat.
And nope, I don't see Pattern Losing any efficacity near Chaos:
- Then again, Amber won the war at Chaos Doors.
- Pattern swords kill chaosites just finely there
Amber won the war against chaos because the elder Amberites just plain kick ass. They kick ass enough by themselves without having to say "just having pattern makes you have an invulnerable force field so that Logrus can never hurt you in any way".
After all, the point is they KICKED ASS; not that they just went in there walking and no one could even come near them.
I mean, by your logic Merlin should never have been able to even touch Luke or Dalt with his logrus active, and yet I seem to recall that he did so with Luke on more than one occasion.
In my game, an Amberite always gets something of a creepy feeling when the Logrus manifests, and vice-versa, but that's it unless an active logrus user touches a tendril to an active pattern defense.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;299523Amber won the war against chaos because the elder Amberites just plain kick ass. They kick ass enough by themselves without having to say "just having pattern makes you have an invulnerable force field so that Logrus can never hurt you in any way".
You said it very well yourself: They can't hurt you
directly.
They can still hurl things at you, yield swords from a distance, and have a huge advantage with spells.
So no, you're far from invulnerable to it, but it even the odds.
You asked why the pattern is worth 50 points? In my opinion, here's one of the reasons.
Quote from: RPGPundit;299523I mean, by your logic Merlin should never have been able to even touch Luke or Dalt with his logrus active, and yet I seem to recall that he did so with Luke on more than one occasion.
I may very well be wrong, but I can't seem to recall either of it.
Quote from: boulet;299397Do you guys consider that this superiority of the Pattern over the Logrus may change depending if the confrontation happens close to the Court of Chaos ?
Croaker summed it up nicely.
Also...
The Pattern wielder may be at distance from the Pattern, but they carry it within themselves, so in truth, they are never far from it.
Croaker: it sounds to me like you've taken the exact opposite tact I have. Do spells work in your games against an Amberite? If so, you've made Sorcery more powerful than Logrus, haven't you?
In my game, Pattern Defense makes you basically immune to targeted spells, and to Logrus Contact, while not having the pattern actively summoned in your mind means that you are vulnerable to both (but generally spells are much easier to get around than Logrus, which is a REAL power, and not a shadow-based power like magic).
RPGPundit
To me, spells work against an Amberite, yes, unless you've brought up pattern defense, which protects you against them.
However, still in my game, sorcery, being a Shadow Power, has difficulties affecting anything real, so it requires more energy to use sorcery to affect an Amberite or Chaosite, unless it's been made "real" by incorporating a True Power in it
In a way, yes, it makes sorcery a little more effective than Logrus against amberites, but, as gabriel said, Amberites carry the Pattern within themselves, which protects them against direct logrus contact, because, all real that it is, the logrus is especially vulnerable to Pattern. This does nothing against, say, Broken Pattern extensions (although Pattern Defense trumps this easily).
It's funny, it seems that, on all points save this one, we've got a very similar view :lol:
Quote from: boulet;299037I'm not buying that. If it was just some odd shadow substance slowing his progression why did he have to summon an image of the pattern in order to force the way ? The black road isn't the Logrus, but there's a link.
In Zelazny's Amber Universe, remember that Chaos is Logrus-less until Merlin's series, when we get an account of its Power first hand. My opinion is that the Black Road is a Construct of the Logrus, but very much an independent force.
Interestingly enough, I don't recall Corwin go up against effects of the Logrus itself, unless perhaps we assume that Brand's 'Living Trump' powers were all the effects of the Logrus.
Anyways, back on topic:
Fifty points... I always thought it was kind of over-priced. What I usually do to influence the Power base of a campaign is to offer a power for free. If it's an Amber based campaign, basic Pattern will be free. If it's a Chaos based campaign, Shapeshifting is free.
For all other campaigns, ran the way the ADRPG recommends, I make the players pay for it. They always have the choice of using Broken Pattern, etc...
Either way, a great player with the Power of Pattern is pretty unstoppable in Shadow. This always has a tendency to bring things back to Primal Realms, where Pattern doesn't have as much influence over.
my final 2 penneth.
It is important to separate the cost in rpg from the actual effectiveness of The Pattern in the books. In the books it is fairly obvious to see that they are equally matched. I have mentioned previously that I think Trump is the dominant forceand that the Logrus and the Pattern are just abstract trumps of the universe.
The reason why Chaos does not destroy Amber is simply becuase it does not want to. By any standard Chaos has the materiel to destroy Amber the only restriction being the path there was difficult to negotiate with a large force. I see the destruction of Amber as trivial to most Chaosites who instead are focused on their own political inflighting.
The whole cost of pattern discussion lends itself to one conclusion to me. Partial powers are far better than the straight costs from the books. 50 points spent in Pattern should give a character a similar power level as 50 spent in trump or even (and here I speak pure heresy) an attribute such as Endurance.
No, I disagree. The sense of how things turned out was that it was a huge embarrassment for Chaos to have lost the Patternfall war, and that they were very eager to destroy Amber, and couldn't believe that a single "clan" held off all the clans of Chaos, then brought the war back to them, and then kicked their asses.
The Chaosians THOUGHT they could destroy Amber, only they couldn't reach it easily (and its not so much even that, but that most demons couldn't survive for long outside of chaos, much less in Amber, except for the corrupting influence of the black road).
They were so shocked that some of them started to worship their conquerors, like the vietcong worshipping Dr.Manhattan.
The Amberites won not because they were untouchable thanks to the pattern, but because when united, as a family all working together, they were immensely powerful. That's kind of a major point of the story you know, since Amber is really not about multiverses or great powers, its about a dysfunctional family.
RPGPundit
Well, although I agree with you in my opinion that Chaos wanted to win and was surprised to lose, you should remember that erick himself considered the opportunity that only those chaosites who cared might have engaged in the Patternfall War.
Yet, IMO, to discover that all their logrus abilities couldn't be used directly on "something containing the pattern, like an amberite", was, along with corwin's guns and the fact that the black road limited chaosite's options, one of the keys to victory. Note that this kind of surprise-ace-in-the-hole is more in keeping with the backstabbing feel of Amber than any "they won because they were better" explanation (although this, too, is one of the reasons of their victory).
Hum... To come back with the original question, in game, I have always found logrus being slightly vulnerable to direct contact with amberites to be one of the great strengths of pattern, one which actually even the playing field and make the characters choose between the 2 powers instead of all wanting to have the Logrus.
Good point Pundit!
Two interesting quotes, both from The Courts of Chaos.
Dara, on Oberon: “I only know that Brand effected his presence in a shadow far enough from Amber that he could be taken there. I believe it involved a fake quest for a nonexistent magical tool which might heal the Pattern. He realizes now that only the Jewel can do it.”
Although this is not explicitly about Pattern vs. Logrus, it does seem to imply that Oberon would be more secure near Amber, and not just because he would have an army at his back. That's just my reading.
Oberon on Dara: “She will make you a good queen, son. I trust the blood of Chaos for strength. It was time for a fresh infusion. You will take the throne already provided with an heir. By the time he is ready for it Merlin will long have been weaned from his upbringing.”
Although I agree that Amber won Patternfall by aggressively and consistently kicking ass, it is telling that Oberon (the chief ass-kicker) sees the blood of Chaos as a serious force to be reckoned with and, if possible, co-opted.
Quote from: RPGPundit;299867No, I disagree. The sense of how things turned out was that it was a huge embarrassment for Chaos to have lost the Patternfall war, and that they were very eager to destroy Amber, and couldn't believe that a single "clan" held off all the clans of Chaos, then brought the war back to them, and then kicked their asses.
The Chaosians THOUGHT they could destroy Amber, only they couldn't reach it easily (and its not so much even that, but that most demons couldn't survive for long outside of chaos, much less in Amber, except for the corrupting influence of the black road).
They were so shocked that some of them started to worship their conquerors, like the vietcong worshipping Dr.Manhattan.
The Amberites won not because they were untouchable thanks to the pattern, but because when united, as a family all working together, they were immensely powerful. That's kind of a major point of the story you know, since Amber is really not about multiverses or great powers, its about a dysfunctional family.
RPGPundit
I agree that the people who were fighting Amber thought they would win, but when we learn more about Choas in the Merlin books we see that though Amber is a dysfunctional family, Chaos is far from being a single headed beast.
I see Chaos like China in the Ming era (14th - 16th centuries). They have huge resources and if they wished they could put together a navy/army that could conquer Europe. However, most of the people running the show have absolutely no interest in Europe and only care about their own local powerbase and their position at court. So when a force is assembled it only have backing of 20% of people that matter and another 10% are working behind the scenes to undermine it in order to prevent that 20% from suceeding and gaining more local power.
Jibba: That's certainly an image that wouldn't be inconsistent with the Amber setting, but it is also an image that is mostly something you are creating as a hypothesis.
The thing is that there are other perspectives available. It seems like, yes, there is conflict between the Chaos Houses in the setting, but those conflicts are all being held down by a powerful head-man, King Swayvil. Its only once the Patternfall war is lost in what can only be described as a catastrophe for all of Chaos, and Swayvill himself begins to fall ill and is dying, that all that tension boils over into actual action. Hence the rash of assassinations that happen when Swayvill is on death's door; this sort of thing wasn't just par for the course in the Courts, it was a really unusual situation that was happening as a result of the succession chaos.
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Chaos lost patternfall because Oberon repaired the pattern, and because the combined forces of Amber were more powerfull than what chaos had in the field. While chaos had a strong opening and took the fight to Arden, they were then turned back by a surprise (guns of avalon) that nobody could expect, and the forces that let them in changed considerably- both Corwin's curse against eric ending as his brother died, and Eric's blessing on amber making it stronger. That right there was a 20-point change in stuff for Amber. Once the pattern was whole again, the good stuff tipped the scales. Probably also resulted in the slow death of the king of chaos- Perhaps Merlin is chosen in that he alone would be safe from Eric's curse, as he could not have expected having the Blood of Amber crowned King of Chaos to be a problem when he died. King Merlin would tip the scales back from the curse that lost them the war.
Pattern is very much worth 50 points if used properly. it can do the same work of conjuring, to find an item rather than crafting it slowly in one place. It can travel shadow either at hellride speeds, or slowly leading entire armies through. It is an absolute defense against magic, trump, and logrus. It can find a shadow of desire that will stay that way, unlike logrus that changes a shadow but the changes degrade. it can change things of shadow such as whats in your pocket, or the car you drive, even how the dice will land. but perhaps most importantly, it allows for the incredible power of the Blood Curse. A power that makes killing a prince of Amber slowly a VERY dangerous thing to do. even a quicker kill may backfire if you leave them enough breath to voice a dying curse.
so not only do you get most of what logrus can do, you can do it *better*, and get a backwards sort of conjuring as well, all without the perquisite of shapeshifting. And Pattern has more innate control over shadow than Logrus does. Logrus merely holds the advantage with sorcery and physical manipulations- something that Advanced pattern and a broken pattern can solve for less than basic logrus cost (75 versus 80).
Good arguments.
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Meh... L06Rv5 p\/\/!\!z p4773r!\! 4!\!y !)4y.
Ok, so I'm bored and stupid. Sue me.
Quote from: Xenon;305553Pattern is very much worth 50 points if used properly. it can do the same work of conjuring, to find an item rather than crafting it slowly in one place. It can travel shadow either at hellride speeds, or slowly leading entire armies through. It is an absolute defense against magic, trump, and logrus. It can find a shadow of desire that will stay that way, unlike logrus that changes a shadow but the changes degrade. it can change things of shadow such as whats in your pocket, or the car you drive, even how the dice will land. but perhaps most importantly, it allows for the incredible power of the Blood Curse. A power that makes killing a prince of Amber slowly a VERY dangerous thing to do. even a quicker kill may backfire if you leave them enough breath to voice a dying curse.
Right. It's my understanding that the cost of attuning to the Pattern is a bargain compared to what it would cost to get those abilities piecemeal.
As a thought exercise, consider the costs of approximately duplicating what you can do with Pattern by instead using artifacts and other abilities.
Lineage 6 - mentioned above in this thread
Confer shadow seeking 14 - hellriding
Confer shadow reality 14 - obtaining shadows with conditions you want
Conjuring 20 - obtaining magical artifacts (items with point values), creatures such as Morganstern, etc.
We're already at 54 points, and we still haven't managed to duplicate all the abilities of the Pattern Imprint. I'd say the defensive properties are worth another 14 points (which would be the cost of an artifact conferring Psychic Barrier, though that is a little different.)
Hmm, yes, looking at it as a "Package deal" like that is not bad.
RPGPundit
And yet, I think the number one advantage is the right to say, here I am, a true prince of Amber by right of blood and deed, I am a true member of the ruling cast of the Universe. And about the actual powers, is not what you can do, but the fact that the whole of creation is open to you, again, by right of blood. I find those subjective points far more interesting.
I'm with Sunboy. To me the membership to the private club is more important than the details of implementation.