Wow, the subject of sorcery seems to be a hot one for Amber players. Some players and GMs consider sorcery overpowered and charge extra points for it or disallow it at character creation. Surely, I can see where part of this stems. In the Merlin books, everyone and their dog was a sorcerer.
Bah. Yes, bah, I say!
First, "sorcery" can be used to describe any supernatural power. Corwin's described as a sorcerer by Ganelon, Lance, Lorraine and others. Each of them seems to mean something different by 'sorcerer'. And, to my memory, the only thing that can be almost surely qualified as traditional magic is in Guns of Avalon when Corwin gives Stygwhatever a "hotfoot". (Oooh, impressive sorcery, that!) I think everything else is questionable and may instead reflect Corwin's mastery/proficiency with the Pattern.
Again, we then get into the Merlin books and words like "sorcery," "magic", "spells" and "linchpins" become buzzwords and repeated (seemingly) as often as possible. We also have "Pattern Magic", "Logrus Magic," etc.
I repeat. Bah.
To start, the DRPG sorcery is arguably not Merlin's sorcery. IMO, sorcery (as it's presented in the DRPG) is but one means to an end. It is utility and a minor power. It is also a way to justify certain in-character actions or events, but it's also kept in perspective. Sure, a spell can kill. But, so can a thrown rock and Pattern/Logrus/Trump defense is probably less useful in protecting you against the rock. . .
I'd like to call upon GMs to understand and make it known to their players that real power is Pattern, Logrus and Trump (and possibly shapeshifting). Sorcery, power words and conjuration are a means to an end that can be augmented by some other use of real power but it's the real powers that matter. I occasionally see people overvaluing sorcery and it frustrates me as a player who loves the genre.
As an aside, one of the options listed in the DRPG is to throw away the magic system. I happen to like this a great deal. Make 'sorcery' on the same level as surgery (in that most of the elders have some high degree of proficiency in it to be used if or when necessary). Then, neuter magic a little. Traditional magic may not work in Amber proper, for instance. Someone with sorcery skills can manipulate magic to a comparable degree that a Pattern initiate can manipulate shadow. And, guess what? Pattern > magic. So, enemy spellcasters are put into perspective and fairly easily defeatable by a Pattern initiate with or without sorcery training.
Finally, if sorcery is "free" then things more naturally translate to the major powers and attributes. it eliminates Player A griping because Player B's sorcery power is waaay too powerful for a 15-pointer (or Player B sulking because Player A 'turned off' or scaled down magic by use of Pattern).
Sorcery allows to teleport a one ton rock on the top of the head of anyone. Letting a sorcerer approach you is like allowing someone with a machine gun to point at you. A machine gun that would work perfectly in Amber castle.
I consider that when magic exists in a shadow, players usually feel it and can use it with their psyche, but that is an internal shadow thing. It doesn't work in Amber, neither does it on earth. Corwin is obviously called a sorcerer because he was in a magical realm, was competent at spellcasting, but more importantly could use tricks with pattern and trumps to have a strong edge.
In a fight, sorcery gives too much an edge for its price, and allows for shortcuts that should not exist. I would accept a sorcery power that gives an edge on magically active shadows (and the chaosian court) but that would not have cross-shadow abilities nor any power in Amber or Earth.
I don't see pattern as a superior power, as it won't stop rocks magically thrown at you, won't prevent the suppression of air or the destroying of your army by a single sorcerer.
Power words and trump artistry provide enough interesting possibilities in my humble opinion. When combined with the ability to find anything in Shadow and a bit of imagination, you can get potent powers for a bit of real work from the player and a damn more satisfying experience. I'm sure that sorcery would not be required to do something like Ghostwheel.
You have to decide how close to 'canon' you want to be.
In the second chronicles, and it's from here we have to base the canon of sorcery, Merlin uses sorcery in Amber and Earth quite freely. With the correct degree of preparation it seems sorcery is indeed a potent force.
I think the way sorcery works in ADRPG (an indeed in Pundit's variation on it) is pretty good. It's a flexible toolset that can cope with just about every issue.
I think that it is too cheap.
I think that Erick's argument that it is cheap because its weaker than other powers and it's boring and dull to keep maintaining spells is spurious. A player that wants to use sorcery will be quite happy having their character get up at 5 every morning and spend 2 hours on spell maintenance. The GM saying well you fancy a bit of a snooze after that party last night will be met with derision and rightly so.
Also in the books it doesn't seem to be weaker than other powers rather it seems like a tool to make use of those powers in more creative and agressive ways.
You could roll pattern sorcery into Pattern, an off-shoot (in power tree terms) and you could do the same with Logrus but this then creates the exception of all the other sorcerers that turn up in the Merlin Chronicles and have no main power just sorcery.
I think the Power source is the key. I wrote this up some place else and intend to use it in my current game. Each shadow has a Magic score from 0 - 5 this can be used to power magic in this shadow. Sorcerers can make use of Logrus and Pattern to power their spells instead or like the Spikard create links out to power sources in shadow but this is time consuming. Also like the Font of Power power sources in shadow are in demand and need to be defended.
I have also increased the copst of Magic (sorcery and conjuration) with a 10 point starting cost. In a game with partial powers where you can get basic shadow walking for 10 points paying the 10 points entrance for sorcery seems a high price.
So you get 3 sorts of sorcerer
1 - Casual sorcerers - these are rare as the point cost is a lot to pay if you are just going to hang a few spells that rely on the inherent magic of their current shadow for effect.
2 - Pattern/Logrus/Trump Sorcerers - these guys have payed extra to be able to fuse their magic with a greater power. They will by definition be studious types and will put a lot of work into their powers
3 - Full blown Sorcerers - these guys will have characters based round sorcery they will probably have a power to back it up and will have lots of preparation. Items created with lines out to shadow powers, primal shadows that provide that power and which are well defended.
I think this works. The problem with the games as it comes is that sorcery is cheap and flexible but also everything else is expensive. To get full sorcery powers will cost you 25 points in my game more to make use of powers and more if you tie it to a power source in shadow that you need to buy stuff to defend. Compare that to being able to use a range of trump tricks or get basic logrus powers or all the other goodies on offer and it no longer looks so cheap, but at the same time I think it emulates the books.
I like Jibbajibba's angle on source of power.
In my campaigns sorcery hasn't been an issue. My players didn't munchkinize it and I insisted that it needed preparation and a way to store the spells. My players preferring spontaneity over planning it was enough to keep sorcery in check.
Sorcery is another of my ADRPG bugbears (I have a lot of those). Fundementally, I think that ADRPG gets the sorcery system more or less right, which is to say that the whole system of hanging spells, lynchpins, etc seems to tie in pretty well with what Merlin does in the second series (and also with the way in which magic is used in several other Zelazny books - it's nice to have opinions corroberated like that). That said, there are some glaring errors in by-the-book sorcery, and it does all overlook the fact that Merlin practices only one form of sorcery while several other characters have rather different tricks.
My main issue with ADRPG sorcery is the time factor (cost may be an issue, but my own house rules eliminate this so I won't address it here). Simply put, ADRPG vastly over exaggerates the time it takes to devise and cast spells. At several points during the books Merlin comments on casting times, mentioning that the invisibility spell is particularly complicated, taking the best part of 20 minutes to cast (which is as quick as trivial spell casting gets in ADRPG). Or commenting that it takes too long to cast a spell in combat if you don't have one prepared (with ADRPG casting times often upwards of 2 hours this would be the understatement of the centuary, so I suspect that merlin is envisaging castig times of between several seconds and a minute, which is consistent with other Zelazny books). Even spell creation times appear drastically wrong. Merlin comments that it can take several days to devise a full rack of spells, to practice them and rehurse their release, and on one occasion takes a day out of his schedule to do just this. Yet Merlin isn't taking a day to prepare spells he already knows, he is taking a day to devise entirely new spells and practice with them. When we see Merlin tackling a new spell he works it out from scratch in one evening while riding a horse. Again the ADRPG timescales, which can deal in weeks, are way off base.
Moving out from there, it seems that certain ADRPG assumptions are correct in that many elder amberites can and do use some minor forms of magic. Corwin has the famous "hot foot" example (a powerword in ADPRG parlance), but even Flora expresses an interest in Merlin's invisibility spell untill he mentions the casting time, suggesting that she has at least some familiarity with the principles and doesn't consider magic to be some entirely esoteric art beyond her ability to use. I'd argue that the typical elder Amberite probably knows a few minor cantrips which might come in hand here or there, but which are often forgotten in favour of the ease with which Pattern (or Logrus) can accomplish the same sort of feats.
I think the advantages of proper, dedicated sorcerers are twofold. One, they understand magic on an academic level and are capable of fairly rapidly devising new spells. Where the casual practitioner might know a couple of curses or that useful spell that Fiona taught them once as a favour, it takes a pro to sit down, analyse the situation and work out a spell to do something particular.
The second advantage, which is related to this, is that proper sorcerers understand how to draw energy from the sources available to them, channel it and manipulate it to their best advantage. Merlin talks about the distinction between Logrus and Pattern magic, and how he is qualified to use both. We know that Jasra and Julia rely on their connection with the Broken Pattern, and Suhuy even outright states that Chaos is the power which underlies Merlin's spells. Proper sorcerers draw energy from power sources to which they are attuned and use this to craft carefully constructed spells. Merlin comments that those who are less particular (and perhaps less well trained?) resort to throwing raw energy around, which only works when you have a large source. One might reasonably deduce from this that the amature sorcerer must often use his or her personal energy to cast spells, which are themselves rather more draining, perhaps explaining why they are reluctant to use magic much of the time.
Is magic too powerful? It's hard to say based on the limited information available, but Merlin himself comments on how hard it is for one sorcerer to kill another using sorcererous means. Presumably a combination of magical sensitivity and skill makes it simple to detect and mitigate any surprise attack or slower working such that dualing sorcerers must resort of quick and flashy attacks which are mor dramatic but often no more effective than simply slashing at someone with a sword. Obviously a simple swordsman might lack the ability to negate a spell cast in his direction, but equally a sorcerer casting spells is often surprisingly vulnerable to a swift and unexpected dagger.
Merlin comments that sorcerers are a dime a dozen on the courts and that his own mother was disappointed in him for taking up the profession (although she may instead have been angry that he had chosen an area of study which might make her life more complicated by providing him with the means to oppose/resist her). It might well be the case that the majority of those were "lesser" sorcerers, not initiates of the Logrus and therefore not able to muster any serious power, but for whatever reason, this plethora of mages was unable to do much during the Patternfall War.
The notion that magic is a trivial menace compared with the major powers, coupled with the idea that most elders seem to have some basic operation knowledge of magic suggests that sorcery shouldn't easily overpower the average Amberite - attacks can be dodged and complusions resisted - hence the power serves a largely utility/cosmetic function. On that basis the point cost need not be significant, especially if serious sorcery relies on having a major power which is often harder to resist. The utility value of sorcery remains the more challenging issue in that it is inhernetly more adaptable, yet the flexibility of shadow walking is itself a challenge in that regard, so the net gain to sorcery is difficult to measure. A character must still plan ahead and have a spell prepared, yet a shadow walker can often use the time taken to devise a new spell to find another, equally beneficial approach to a problem.
Quote from: Trevelyan;337024Sorcery is another of my ADRPG bugbears (I have a lot of those). Fundementally, I think that ADRPG gets the sorcery system more or less right, which is to say that the whole system of hanging spells, lynchpins, etc seems to tie in pretty well with what Merlin does in the second series (and also with the way in which magic is used in several other Zelazny books - it's nice to have opinions corroberated like that). That said, there are some glaring errors in by-the-book sorcery, and it does all overlook the fact that Merlin practices only one form of sorcery while several other characters have rather different tricks.
My main issue with ADRPG sorcery is the time factor (cost may be an issue, but my own house rules eliminate this so I won't address it here). Simply put, ADRPG vastly over exaggerates the time it takes to devise and cast spells. At several points during the books Merlin comments on casting times, mentioning that the invisibility spell is particularly complicated, taking the best part of 20 minutes to cast (which is as quick as trivial spell casting gets in ADRPG). Or commenting that it takes too long to cast a spell in combat if you don't have one prepared (with ADRPG casting times often upwards of 2 hours this would be the understatement of the centuary, so I suspect that merlin is envisaging castig times of between several seconds and a minute, which is consistent with other Zelazny books). Even spell creation times appear drastically wrong. Merlin comments that it can take several days to devise a full rack of spells, to practice them and rehurse their release, and on one occasion takes a day out of his schedule to do just this. Yet Merlin isn't taking a day to prepare spells he already knows, he is taking a day to devise entirely new spells and practice with them. When we see Merlin tackling a new spell he works it out from scratch in one evening while riding a horse. Again the ADRPG timescales, which can deal in weeks, are way off base.
Moving out from there, it seems that certain ADRPG assumptions are correct in that many elder amberites can and do use some minor forms of magic. Corwin has the famous "hot foot" example (a powerword in ADPRG parlance), but even Flora expresses an interest in Merlin's invisibility spell untill he mentions the casting time, suggesting that she has at least some familiarity with the principles and doesn't consider magic to be some entirely esoteric art beyond her ability to use. I'd argue that the typical elder Amberite probably knows a few minor cantrips which might come in hand here or there, but which are often forgotten in favour of the ease with which Pattern (or Logrus) can accomplish the same sort of feats.
I think the advantages of proper, dedicated sorcerers are twofold. One, they understand magic on an academic level and are capable of fairly rapidly devising new spells. Where the casual practitioner might know a couple of curses or that useful spell that Fiona taught them once as a favour, it takes a pro to sit down, analyse the situation and work out a spell to do something particular.
The second advantage, which is related to this, is that proper sorcerers understand how to draw energy from the sources available to them, channel it and manipulate it to their best advantage. Merlin talks about the distinction between Logrus and Pattern magic, and how he is qualified to use both. We know that Jasra and Julia rely on their connection with the Broken Pattern, and Suhuy even outright states that Chaos is the power which underlies Merlin's spells. Proper sorcerers draw energy from power sources to which they are attuned and use this to craft carefully constructed spells. Merlin comments that those who are less particular (and perhaps less well trained?) resort to throwing raw energy around, which only works when you have a large source. One might reasonably deduce from this that the amature sorcerer must often use his or her personal energy to cast spells, which are themselves rather more draining, perhaps explaining why they are reluctant to use magic much of the time.
Is magic too powerful? It's hard to say based on the limited information available, but Merlin himself comments on how hard it is for one sorcerer to kill another using sorcererous means. Presumably a combination of magical sensitivity and skill makes it simple to detect and mitigate any surprise attack or slower working such that dualing sorcerers must resort of quick and flashy attacks which are mor dramatic but often no more effective than simply slashing at someone with a sword. Obviously a simple swordsman might lack the ability to negate a spell cast in his direction, but equally a sorcerer casting spells is often surprisingly vulnerable to a swift and unexpected dagger.
Merlin comments that sorcerers are a dime a dozen on the courts and that his own mother was disappointed in him for taking up the profession (although she may instead have been angry that he had chosen an area of study which might make her life more complicated by providing him with the means to oppose/resist her). It might well be the case that the majority of those were "lesser" sorcerers, not initiates of the Logrus and therefore not able to muster any serious power, but for whatever reason, this plethora of mages was unable to do much during the Patternfall War.
The notion that magic is a trivial menace compared with the major powers, coupled with the idea that most elders seem to have some basic operation knowledge of magic suggests that sorcery shouldn't easily overpower the average Amberite - attacks can be dodged and complusions resisted - hence the power serves a largely utility/cosmetic function. On that basis the point cost need not be significant, especially if serious sorcery relies on having a major power which is often harder to resist. The utility value of sorcery remains the more challenging issue in that it is inhernetly more adaptable, yet the flexibility of shadow walking is itself a challenge in that regard, so the net gain to sorcery is difficult to measure. A character must still plan ahead and have a spell prepared, yet a shadow walker can often use the time taken to devise a new spell to find another, equally beneficial approach to a problem.
All good points I totally agree with the stuff round timing and assume this was another rather crude game mechanic to make sorcery less appealing. However, the stuff round the utility of sorcery is less convincing. I really get the fellignt hat Merlin woudl have thought that his cunisart offensive spell would be enough to finish off just about anyone who didn't have magic to defend themself and I think that the potential for magic as both a tool and an offensive force is massive. Authors are notoriously prone in putting plot and character before maximum use of powers. RPG players have no such qualms. A simple look at what Superman would do in the hands of a powergamer is proof enough. A simple task like creating a bloody big rock to squash some one is almost always going to be lethal (unless you imagine Gerard energing Cartoonishly from beneath it only now 2 dimentional). Created items are now items and pattern defense will do you no good agaisnt a rock than they would against a sword.
Also it is not advisable to assume that a sorcerer can't be a warrior as well that is a RGG trope that you need to put aside in Amber. Sure 'power' collectors generally have less stats that 'stat' collectors but never bet that a sorcerer doesn't also have 60 points in warfare ;)
Warfare-based sorcery can be interesting, viable, and fun.
Back in the days of AmberMUSH, a memorable character was blind, a sorcerer, and had 100 Warfare (or damn close to it). His spells? Fog of war, Darkness, blindness and other spells to confuse the senses: particularly sight.
But, I kick my original point by the above....
I think it may be up to a particular theme or style the GM has decided for their game. Regarding sorcery being overpowered or too much hype, I mean that I would balk at some pissant newbie sorcerer defeating the likes of Benedict, Gerard or Corwin with mere sorcery. This isn't only a system of game balance. The elders have existed a looooooong time. They all have egos the size of Australia as well, and will happily pick a fight with just about anyone. This sort of arrogance just doesn't tie in with the idea "Oh, shit! I didn't know he was a wizard! Now I'm dead!"
Quote from: scottishstorm;337054I think it may be up to a particular theme or style the GM has decided for their game. Regarding sorcery being overpowered or too much hype, I mean that I would balk at some pissant newbie sorcerer defeating the likes of Benedict, Gerard or Corwin with mere sorcery. This isn't only a system of game balance. The elders have existed a looooooong time. They all have egos the size of Australia as well, and will happily pick a fight with just about anyone. This sort of arrogance just doesn't tie in with the idea "Oh, shit! I didn't know he was a wizard! Now I'm dead!"
But ... Luke, a newbie PC, kills Caine with a fucking hand-grenade :) so these guys are not immortal.
I don't use the Elders but if I did and a player actually outsmarted one of them and put him in a position where a spell could kill him well... good for them.
Quote from: jibbajibba;337146But ... Luke, a newbie PC, kills Caine with a fucking hand-grenade :) so these guys are not immortal.
I don't use the Elders but if I did and a player actually outsmarted one of them and put him in a position where a spell could kill him well... good for them.
That's one way of looking at it.
Another way is (and forgive any insult) "Bad for you. You failed as a GM." Not saying that it's impossible for a PC to outsmart/kill an elder. I just think it's a momentous event that should never be handled lightly.
Quote from: scottishstorm;337148That's one way of looking at it.
Another way is (and forgive any insult) "Bad for you. You failed as a GM." Not saying that it's impossible for a PC to outsmart/kill an elder. I just think it's a momentous event that should never be handled lightly.
Well .... its not my job as GM to make sure that my NPCs never die of course I could do that and of course outsmarting the NPC is going to be tricky as I am both infitely resourceful and full of wisdom but ...
Anyway one reason I don't use elders is exactly for this reason. I don't want a game where i have 16 NPCs who are infinitely 'better' than the PCs I want the PCs to be the protagonists not relegated to supporting roles while I fulfil some masturbatory GM fantasy of hey look isn't my NPC cool :)
Lastly when my 'uber-NPCs' get cornered they usually talk their way out of things.
'Look Septimus you can kill me but then you will never find out who your real father is ...'
'It seems I am at your mercy Felix but before you kill me think about the knowledge and power I could impart to you. The secrets of the universe Felix can be yours to command...'
etc
Part of the way I run a game is to make the PCs feel real , lots of background , lots of focused effort to understand them. This usually means that I can save an NPC from death if I need to with a bit of dialogue an an expression, I certainly don't need to nerf the sorcery rules to do it :)
Hiya, jib,
I returned to the forum to see you already posted.
One thing I want to make clear is when I said "You fail as a GM" I was using 'you' in a general sense and not you specifically. I have loads of respect for your ideas and opinions. If I didn't, I wouldn't be interested in your game. I only meant that an Amber GM has a responsibility (if they use the elders) to make those elders not only larger than life, but a frightening force (and God help you if one wants you dead).
Quote from: scottishstorm;337152Hiya, jib,
I returned to the forum to see you already posted.
One thing I want to make clear is when I said "You fail as a GM" I was using 'you' in a general sense and not you specifically. I have loads of respect for your ideas and opinions. If I didn't, I wouldn't be interested in your game. I only meant that an Amber GM has a responsibility (if they use the elders) to make those elders not only larger than life, but a frightening force (and God help you if one wants you dead).
My comments when I said 'I' were to be taken as I the Amber GM and not me the chap :)
I still think a GMs job is to play the NPCs as they are not to play the NPCs as divinely omnisentient beings (baring the fact that some of them of course might be Omnisentient Beings) .
Sorry, scottishstorm, but I tend to disagree.
Most of my players play Amber because they wanted to continue the story written in the books. They did not want to be frightened children looking up at the gods they could maybe become in a hundred gaming sessions. They did want to be part of the game from the start. Elders have a frightening power, that's right, but so must the player be, or begin to be. When a new player arrives in Amber, it causes more than a shrug to Elders. They try to test him, to use him, to understand where it stands.
The players are the likes of Merlin or Martin, that is not nothing. Elders know they are more powerful, but they do display some caution like you would to some poisonous snake.
I think may have been taken out of context a little.
Player character should have a fair (this is game-balance "fair" not ethically fair) chance of defeating an elder. "Defeating" need not be limited to killing, but it could go that route also.
To sum up some of the points I'm trying to make:
- If an attack strikes you, the GM, as obvious in some way. Then it should probably be considered the same for the elder.
- Sorcery has been around for a long time and the elders have had to deal with sorcerers in some form or another. It seems unlikely that a new PC is going to take an elder out with a spell. (as a 'finishing move'? That has potential, or as part of a long recipe of action, sure. I just mean you don't simply walk up and say, "Hii, Benedict. How's it' going?" and then ZAP and old Benny turns to ash)
- Even if an idea strikes you, the GM, as particularly innovative, there's a chance the elders already know about it or know how tro deal with it. Give the elders the benefit of the doubt. They are smarter than you and have a vast range of experience to their credit. This doesn't make them infallible, but do keep it in mind.
just getting back on topic, i have never considered sorcery that great of a power, despite allways having it as a PC. the thing is, i use it like an Amberite/Chaosian, not some player on a power trip, i dont go, hmm this spell can actaully kill Random, i might kill him! no i think, this spell CAN kill Random, however it is more likley that all his damn gaurds will kill me! also a gm should step in if a player goes, i want to have a spell that instantly makes someone explode! then go, hang on, this spell is actually too powerful, i will make it so that the explosion is so big it will also kill the PC, or with the giant rock. I do understand there are some PC's out there on a power trip (infact im playing with one right now). ergo sorcery is not overpowered, if a spell becomes too powerful, have it so it requires a large Psyche to cast, by large i mean larger then Fiona's and Brand's. sure there are some spells that COULD kill NPC's and other PC's, but have it so that there is consequences, like Fiona popping a mind link on the PC and just crush their mind etc.
thanks for listening to my rant on this subject :)
Power Word: Magic Negation. Or a Spellbreaker.
Sorcery has enough ways to counter it that I don't feel it's overpowered. The more deadly the spell, the longer it's going to take not just to cast, but to release the lynchpins. While the sorcerer is chanting and waving his arms, his opponent can attack or run away unmolested.
Deadly spells do not take a long time to cast they just require the right circumstances. A spell with a single lynchpin can kill anyone if the circumstances are correct. In fact a spell with no lynchpins at all could do this as well.
Amber sorcerers do not need to wave their arms about to cast spells they simple need to trigger a hung spell and add the lynchpin.
I agree that Elders are aware of sorcery and some may take steps in some circumstances to safeguard themselves.
I don't, if the books are the standard, think that Amberites are a lot clever than me. I wouldn't have tried to take Eric out with a loaded crossbow or missed the half dozen things Ganelon does that just seem a wee bit exceptional for a sahdow dweller.
Like all things if the player and by extention the character can set things up correctly a dagger, a bomb or a spell can finish of any Amberite. This should not be easy and in my games , because I am incredibly biased, it better be fucking clever and not a gross application of a single power, but it can be done. I know because as a player I could do it.
I used to have a similar issues with sorcery as presented in ADRPG, especially before running any games. I thought I would have to nerf it or something. But in the end, how is it so different to get targeted by a blazing inferno spell in the Courts or by a rocket on shadow Earth? Not much except the latter didn't cost a thing on a character sheet.
The discussion about "sucker punch" immunity for the princes of Amber is kind of irrelevant. Like Jibbajibba said, if a player wows me with a clever trap, sure, kill this old bastard. I'd rather come back to the question of genre emulation (should earn me some pundit points!) Luke got away with murder because he was going for revenge. Caine got away with murder because the consensus was that Brand was a traitor. What will save the PC's ass when he's got royal blood on his/her hands? Now if instead of killing outright the magic sucker punch is about debilitating or paralyzing I'll be cheering up the PC!
Quote from: jibbajibba;337305Deadly spells do not take a long time to cast they just require the right circumstances. A spell with a single lynchpin can kill anyone if the circumstances are correct. In fact a spell with no lynchpins at all could do this as well.
Amber sorcerers do not need to wave their arms about to cast spells they simple need to trigger a hung spell and add the lynchpin.
I should have checked the rules. Lynchpins only need to be spoken to take effect.
Still, if you know enough to kill them in one shot with a spell that has no lynchpins, you could probably kill them with some other type of trap/ambush as well.
Quote from: Klaus;337410I should have checked the rules. Lynchpins only need to be spoken to take effect.
Still, if you know enough to kill them in one shot with a spell that has no lynchpins, you could probably kill them with some other type of trap/ambush as well.
Now that I totally agree with :)
Quote from: jibbajibba;337034However, the stuff round the utility of sorcery is less convincing. I really get the fellignt hat Merlin woudl have thought that his cunisart offensive spell would be enough to finish off just about anyone who didn't have magic to defend themself and I think that the potential for magic as both a tool and an offensive force is massive.
I agree that the potential is massive, I just don't think that the potential is limited to sorcery. In other words, sorcery in ADRPG can be hugely useful and immensely deadly under the right circumstances, but the same thing can be sadi for anyone with the power to walk in shadow, and several particular uses of other powers besides.
Merlin's Concerto for Cuisinart and a Mircowave spell is a good example of this - it is potentially a lethal spell (although IIRC we never actually see him use it, only reference it while in Undershadow), but the ADRPG version at least suggests that the target needs to be relatively slow (or large) for the spell to be particularly effective. And even if it is effective, all you end up with is a dead (diced and cooked?) target, and a guy or girl with a hand grenade. Or a guy with just a decent rank in warfare can achieve much the sme result, without needing to worry about hanging spells and the potential for the target to evade or counter them.
QuoteAuthors are notoriously prone in putting plot and character before maximum use of powers. RPG players have no such qualms. A simple look at what Superman would do in the hands of a powergamer is proof enough. A simple task like creating a bloody big rock to squash some one is almost always going to be lethal (unless you imagine Gerard energing Cartoonishly from beneath it only now 2 dimentional). Created items are now items and pattern defense will do you no good agaisnt a rock than they would against a sword.
This is a problem, but again it applies to every power. A difficult player might well come up with a spell to summon a huge rock, too large to avoid, and drop it on a target. But a difficult player could likewise use Pattern or Logrus to find an appropriately large weapon and ensure that it works in the shadow in question. Magically dropping the rock is not significantly disimilar frmo having your pet version of ghostwheel do the same, or just opening a Trump gate to a raginf inferno and letting the fire wash over the target.
The way to curb such behavior is both to rely on mature players to adher to genre conventions and, where necessary, to enforce those conventions in your own game. Chief among these might be that idea that no significant death goes unavenged, and that word of a PCs actions (and therefore his capabilities) spreads fast. Drop a rock on a significant NPC and not only will you have someone gunning for you, buit everyone else will be aware of the tactic, will have developed a counter, and will be considering very carefully whether they want to be associated with someone like you.
QuoteAlso it is not advisable to assume that a sorcerer can't be a warrior as well that is a RGG trope that you need to put aside in Amber. Sure 'power' collectors generally have less stats that 'stat' collectors but never bet that a sorcerer doesn't also have 60 points in warfare ;)
It's a safe bet that, sooner or later you'll meet a sorcer with decent warefare. But if you have to fear a guy with magic and reasonable warfare, why should you be any less scared of someone who put all those extra points into warfare and skipped the sorcery? No one finds Benedict laughable just because he doesn't use magic as often as Fiona or Brand. ;)
Quote from: jibbajibba;337146But ... Luke, a newbie PC, kills Caine with a fucking hand-grenade :) so these guys are not immortal.
I don't use the Elders but if I did and a player actually outsmarted one of them and put him in a position where a spell could kill him well... good for them.
My view, essentially, is that you could substitute "sorcery" for "hand grenade" in the above and the point still stands. Ultimately, killing an NPC should be the result of careful work, whatever method is used to deal the final blow, and many methods are equally valid once that work has been done.
Sorcery is one of a great number of tools available in Amber, and it's not so much that sorcery isn't potent, but that the other powers available are also pretty scary if used carefully by a skilled player, and gross use of sorcery, like gross use of any other power is easily circumvented.
Quote from: Trevelyan;337717My view, essentially, is that you could substitute "sorcery" for "hand grenade" in the above and the point still stands. Ultimately, killing an NPC should be the result of careful work, whatever method is used to deal the final blow, and many methods are equally valid once that work has been done.
Sorcery is one of a great number of tools available in Amber, and it's not so much that sorcery isn't potent, but that the other powers available are also pretty scary if used carefully by a skilled player, and gross use of sorcery, like gross use of any other power is easily circumvented.
Yes and no.
I believe in a fight between guy a and guy b where guy a has 15 points (and 1 rank) advantage in Warfare and guy b has sorcery + 15 and 15 points less warfare (being 1 rank) the guy with sorcery will win in a fight.
In fact a cunning bit of socery can probably do more than that but without describing a scene in detail ....
But I never ascribe to gross uses of a power. My only Amber PC (once a Gm...) used an intelligent blade with racked spells and amber ranked warfare
I would fight a defensive battle allowing the sword to cast spells to give him the appropriate momentary advantage or to remove him from harms way if things looks tough.
Quote from: Trevelyan;337717This is a problem, but again it applies to every power. A difficult player might well come up with a spell to summon a huge rock, too large to avoid, and drop it on a target. But a difficult player could likewise use Pattern or Logrus to find an appropriately large weapon and ensure that it works in the shadow in question.
Hmmm no ? When the shadow in question is Amber, a primal plane, an owned shadow with its set of rules, it is not possible to just find a nuke and detonate it. Even when it is possible, casting a spell is incredibly quicker than going into shadow to find what you need and bring it back.
It is not that much of powergaming to consider what sorcery is useful for. Picture a Corwin or Bleys with sorcery, safely making parts of the Kolvir fall on the troops they attack, jedi-throwing them to the beach. Picture a Julian who has problems with a task as simple as stopping a car or a whole band of Amberites who are afraid to go to Tir Na Nogh to stop Brand because they can't do a thing as simple as flying.
Sorcery is overpowered and worse : it is redundant. Amberites are called sorcerers by shadow-dwellers because their possibilities look surnatural thanks to the Pattern and the trumps. Corwin's series is great in that it allows us to see how the magic works, to understand its limits and its consequences. Sorcery is more akin to a big black box that will do what you want for free and that just works. That is, in my opinion, far less interesting.
Quote from: Ivanhoe;337980Hmmm no ? When the shadow in question is Amber, a primal plane, an owned shadow with its set of rules, it is not possible to just find a nuke and detonate it. Even when it is possible, casting a spell is incredibly quicker than going into shadow to find what you need and bring it back.
It is not that much of powergaming to consider what sorcery is useful for. Picture a Corwin or Bleys with sorcery, safely making parts of the Kolvir fall on the troops they attack, jedi-throwing them to the beach. Picture a Julian who has problems with a task as simple as stopping a car or a whole band of Amberites who are afraid to go to Tir Na Nogh to stop Brand because they can't do a thing as simple as flying.
Sorcery is overpowered and worse : it is redundant. Amberites are called sorcerers by shadow-dwellers because their possibilities look surnatural thanks to the Pattern and the trumps. Corwin's series is great in that it allows us to see how the magic works, to understand its limits and its consequences. Sorcery is more akin to a big black box that will do what you want for free and that just works. That is, in my opinion, far less interesting.
Yeah I like that. But I find sorcery interesting For me the second series are less good as novels by might well be better as a gameworld. there are plenty of examples of books that are crap but the world they set up is perfect for gaming. So The Gor books are fatally flawed by John Norman's obsession with S&M. However as a realised game world with well defined cultures environmetns etc its a great setting for games. LotR great book but the nature of the thing is that ther eis less room to role play. The lack of grey means that roleplay choices beyond defending x against the armies of mordor are pretty limited. In teh same way I think Merlin's chronicles open up the Amberverse with hosts of roleplaying choices even if they dilute the calrity of the corwin novels.
Zelazny was a novice RPG player when he wrote the second series, and IMHO he made every mistake of a novice RPG GM, even if he stays a wonderful storyteller. He falls for the rule of Awesomeness without realizing how players would probably break the world with many of the items he describes. Luckily, in the novels he is both the player and the GM so the line is never crossed, but I must say that with all the revelations in the Merlin's series I do not understand how the Chaos could have possibly lost the war in their own territories against non-sorcerer Princes. At the very least I do not understand why torrents of lava, meteorite strikes, earthquakes, atmosphere suppression were not unleashed against Amber's forces. I also don't understand how the princes escaped the possibility evoked earlier of the dumping of a thousand tons rock on the top of their crunchy heads.
So yes, Merlin was not part of my campaigns' canon. Corwin describes the universe of ADRPG, but what Merlin describes is more akin to Chaos DRPG, where Chaosians rule and Amber is indeed a small rebellious and feeble country.
Quote from: Ivanhoe;338017Zelazny was a novice RPG player when he wrote the second series, and IMHO he made every mistake of a novice RPG GM, even if he stays a wonderful storyteller. He falls for the rule of Awesomeness without realizing how players would probably break the world with many of the items he describes. Luckily, in the novels he is both the player and the GM so the line is never crossed, but I must say that with all the revelations in the Merlin's series I do not understand how the Chaos could have possibly lost the war in their own territories against non-sorcerer Princes. At the very least I do not understand why torrents of lava, meteorite strikes, earthquakes, atmosphere suppression were not unleashed against Amber's forces. I also don't understand how the princes escaped the possibility evoked earlier of the dumping of a thousand tons rock on the top of their crunchy heads.
So yes, Merlin was not part of my campaigns' canon. Corwin describes the universe of ADRPG, but what Merlin describes is more akin to Chaos DRPG, where Chaosians rule and Amber is indeed a small rebellious and feeble country.
I always maintained tha the Patternfall war and all that was trivial in Chaos terms. A bit like an offshoot of the Shogunate thinking about invading Manchuria but back at home everyone being more concerned as to what the political ramifications of that would be for real power.
Now I agree the 2nd series is flawed but I think it does give us a better world for roleplaying in, as I tired to express above. I also agree that the lack of Sorcery at the final Patternfall battle is hard to explain in retrospect.
Quote from: jibbajibba;338036I always maintained tha the Patternfall war and all that was trivial in Chaos terms. A bit like an offshoot of the Shogunate thinking about invading Manchuria but back at home everyone being more concerned as to what the political ramifications of that would be for real power.
I agree with you. The door was opened by Brand, a homey. The Courts surely encouraged that if only for the spectacle. They do enjoy a good old war every once in a while. Plenty of opportunities to shine an piss off their cousins. There seem to be very little political unity in the Courts. My interpretation is: the Chaosian who want the Pattern removed might be a minority.
QuoteI also agree that the lack of Sorcery at the final Patternfall battle is hard to explain in retrospect.
Just like Corwin couldn't explain why Borel wanted to fight by the rules of chivalry... There are very different cultural values involved.
Quote from: Ivanhoe;338017At the very least I do not understand why torrents of lava, meteorite strikes, earthquakes, atmosphere suppression were not unleashed against Amber's forces. I also don't understand how the princes escaped the possibility evoked earlier of the dumping of a thousand tons rock on the top of their crunchy heads.
So yes, Merlin was not part of my campaigns' canon. Corwin describes the universe of ADRPG, but what Merlin describes is more akin to Chaos DRPG, where Chaosians rule and Amber is indeed a small rebellious and feeble country.
Given that we have no idea how many chaosians, let alone Logrus masters there actually are, it's also possible that Fiona, perhaps with some backup, was simply able to keep screwing with the local rules of magic to keep anyone from casting spells. If she gives the local laws of magic a kick every so often, no one will be able to complete a spell.
QuoteI always maintained tha the Patternfall war and all that was trivial in Chaos terms. A bit like an offshoot of the Shogunate thinking about invading Manchuria but back at home everyone being more concerned as to what the political ramifications of that would be for real power.
Now I agree the 2nd series is flawed but I think it does give us a better world for roleplaying in, as I tired to express above. I also agree that the lack of Sorcery at the final Patternfall battle is hard to explain in retrospect.
Even if it was trivial, that wouldn't explain why the portion of Chaos that was fighting didn't use sorcery, unless they were being blocked somehow.
Indifference on Chaos's part isn't needed to explain Amber's victory. For one thing, Pattern is clearly superior to Logrus when it comes to fighting battles. A Logrus user can pull himself and maybe a few others into an adjacent shadow, making a small strike team appear at the enemy's rear. Pattern can lead unlimited numbers into an adjacent shadow, causing whole armies to appear on previously undefended flanks.
Thinking about it more, it's actually possible that Amber
did face rivers of lava, etc. and won anyway. We don't actually see the battle until it's all but over. If the Amberites had placed priority on taking out enemy spell casters, which Benedict almost certainly would, it's quite possible that the enemy sorcerers are simply all dead or neutralized (or out of spells) by the time Corwin catches a view of the battle.
Quote from: Klaus;338206Indifference on Chaos's part isn't needed to explain Amber's victory. For one thing, Pattern is clearly superior to Logrus when it comes to fighting battles. A Logrus user can pull himself and maybe a few others into an adjacent shadow, making a small strike team appear at the enemy's rear. Pattern can lead unlimited numbers into an adjacent shadow, causing whole armies to appear on previously undefended flanks.
Thinking about it more, it's actually possible that Amber did face rivers of lava, etc. and won anyway. We don't actually see the battle until it's all but over. If the Amberites had placed priority on taking out enemy spell casters, which Benedict almost certainly would, it's quite possible that the enemy sorcerers are simply all dead or neutralized (or out of spells) by the time Corwin catches a view of the battle.
Some fair points there but I have a couple of issues I think Pattern is great to get you to a battle but once you are there Logrus is probably a more useful power. This is especially true if we accept that use of Pattern at this end of things is much harder (pointed to by the comments that you have gone to where the shadows go mad..) Following up on that I don't think pattern tricks alone woudl have defeated the logrus guys on their home turf.
Secondly I think you over estimate Benedict in regard to sorcery and tactics with dealing with it. In the books Benedict is far from infalible on arcane issues. He gets tricked by the black grass, he gets tricked by Brand, he even gets tricked by Dara's perfectly mundane frame job on Corwin and he looses an arm in combat with the Chaosites. To be honest Benedict Fucks up more often than any other character in the books in regard to dealing with the unexpected.
We have to face the fact that teh Pattern guys won because that was the correct narative result and Zelazny hadn't invented Chaos Sorcery or Logrus yet.
Quote from: jibbajibba;338319We have to face the fact that teh Pattern guys won because that was the correct narative result and Zelazny hadn't invented Chaos Sorcery or Logrus yet.
There is also a world-twisting hypothesis that I like : that Chaos is a Oberon/Dworkin creation to re-unite Amberites. That it was designed to look dangerous but is in fact vastly inferior to Amber's faction. After all, it is never said what Oberon did during all these years away. Of course that leaves the GM with the necessity of inventing a whole new origins theory.
Quote from: jibbajibba;338319Secondly I think you over estimate Benedict in regard to sorcery and tactics with dealing with it.
I used Benedict's name because he was in charge of the battle. Realizing "hey, we should kill the sorcerers" is trivial, and killing a sorcerer is much like killing anyone else.
QuoteI think Pattern is great to get you to a battle but once you are there Logrus is probably a more useful power.
How so?
QuoteWe have to face the fact that teh Pattern guys won because that was the correct narative result and Zelazny hadn't invented Chaos Sorcery or Logrus yet.
Everything happens because that's the narrative result Zelazny wanted. Amber still won, and I maintain that there are perfectly logical explanations beyond "author fiat."
Oh, lots of good comments
Quote from: jibbajibba;337806Yes and no.
I believe in a fight between guy a and guy b where guy a has 15 points (and 1 rank) advantage in Warfare and guy b has sorcery + 15 and 15 points less warfare (being 1 rank) the guy with sorcery will win in a fight.
I agree with you there entirely. Of course, I'd also suggest that if the sorcerer put those points into upping his Endurance rank and fought defensively then he'd probably do equally well. And if the warfare guy knew he'd be fighting a sorcerer and took precautions then... etc. As long as you don't spread yourself too thin, diversity is generally going to produce better results over a range of situations than focusing. You could also consider the same situation in reverse. If one character had sorcery and points in Psyche, and another had sorcery, lost a few points in Psyche and put them in Warfare, then my money would be on the Warfare guy. It's just a question of being able to strike where the other guy is weak without exposing yourself too much where the other guy is strong.
Quote from: Ivanhoe;337980Hmmm no ? When the shadow in question is Amber, a primal plane, an owned shadow with its set of rules, it is not possible to just find a nuke and detonate it. Even when it is possible, casting a spell is incredibly quicker than going into shadow to find what you need and bring it back.
Casting a spell is quicker, but developing a new spell probably isn't. And if you go around casting the same spell all the time then people are going to anticipate it. I imagine that much of the challenge facing a decent sorcerer is the need to keep his material fresh.
As for the whole Amber/Primal Plane/Owned Shadow thing, that's the kind of junk that I happily discard frmo my games. It falls foul of the most basic Erick vs. Roger test.
QuoteSorcery is more akin to a big black box that will do what you want for free and that just works. That is, in my opinion, far less interesting.
I think that depends on how much effort you put into explaining sorcery in your games. If I have a player who is interested in the power then I'll put much more time into developing the whys and the wherefores to make sorcery both interesting and appropriately limited.
Quote from: jibbajibba;338036Now I agree the 2nd series is flawed but I think it does give us a better world for roleplaying in, as I tired to express above. I also agree that the lack of Sorcery at the final Patternfall battle is hard to explain in retrospect.
I tend to agree re the Merlin series. Thematically it is a lot sloppier, but it opens up a far larger world which suits an RPG much better. Of sorcery at Patternfall, more later.
Quote from: boulet;338050My interpretation is: the Chaosian who want the Pattern removed might be a minority.
Again, I tend to agree. I think that the attitude might be something like that of the Scottish nationalists who are eager to see Scotland become entirely independant from England - it's a cause which inspres a great deal of flag waving and rhetoric, but when you look at the numbers, the vast majority of people (>66%) are happy with the status quo. I imagine that most chaosites are happy enough with the Pattern where it is, but that those who might want it removed tend to have louder voices. And flags. Never forget the flags.
Quote from: boulet;338050Just like Corwin couldn't explain why Borel wanted to fight by the rules of chivalry... There are very different cultural values involved.
"'Can a magician kill a man by magic?' Lord Wellington asked Strange. Strange frowned. He seemed to dislike the question. 'I suppose a magician might,' he admitted, 'but a gentleman never could.'" - Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell.
One suggestion could simply be that the forces of chaos don't believe that sorcery is an appropriate weapon to use in a time of war. If Dara thought that a career in magic was beneath her son (although interestingly not beneath either her or Mandor) then it might reflect a cultural view of magic as somewhat beneath great men, who would in turn disdain the use of magic in favour of personal prowess in battle.
Quote from: Klaus;338206Given that we have no idea how many chaosians, let alone Logrus masters there actually are, it's also possible that Fiona, perhaps with some backup, was simply able to keep screwing with the local rules of magic to keep anyone from casting spells. If she gives the local laws of magic a kick every so often, no one will be able to complete a spell.
Personally I doubt that Fiona would be capable of such a feat by herself, but the limit on the number of sorcerers and Logrus masters in Chaos is something that I can absolutely get behind.
Merlin comments on the fact that there are many sorcerers in and around Chaos and Amber, but he also mentions that they tend to draw power from somewhat limited and imperfect sources. In Chaos it appears that many sorcerers are akin to local tradesmen, raising serious questions as to the extent of their power. And consider that neither Merlin nor Mandor seemed particularly worried about the thought of taking on an unknown shadow sorcerer, even one in control of a significant magical resource and aided by Jurt (although Jurt might fall into the liability rather than the asset category). It is entirely plausible to suggest that the vast majority of sorcerers just can't cut the mustard when compared with the genuine article from Chaos or Amber. Dara's boast about being a sorcerer of particularly high caliber makes much more sense if you consider that most shadow sorcerers, lacking a connection to a true power, can't match her, and most highly ranked Chaosites, who might draw on the Logrus, elect not to for social reasons.
Merlin suggests at one point that he knows and is familiar with the style of all the Trump artists in Chaos. This suggests a fairly limited pool. I certainly don't see more than the core family in each of the major houses being expected to assay the Logrus by deault, with perhaps a handful of others who decide to risk it for the chance to better themselves. If every Logrus user is both coached by Suhuy and taught a secret path through the labyrinth to reach it, that suggests a relatively small group indeed.
QuoteIndifference on Chaos's part isn't needed to explain Amber's victory. For one thing, Pattern is clearly superior to Logrus when it comes to fighting battles. A Logrus user can pull himself and maybe a few others into an adjacent shadow, making a small strike team appear at the enemy's rear. Pattern can lead unlimited numbers into an adjacent shadow, causing whole armies to appear on previously undefended flanks.
Amber according to Erick strikes again. There is actually little to no evidence suggesting that Logrus users traverse shadow in a manner different from Pattern users, and indeed some limited evidence to suggest that they walk in just the same way. The whole notion of Logrus users sending out tendrils and pulling themselves is a creation of ADRPG. Of course, the assumed flexibility of the Logrus vs. the apparent limitations of the Pattern are largely a result of seeing the Pattern as used by a guy with little interest in esoteric powers, and the Logrus used by a guy who took post grad lessons in doing funny tricks. Looking at the sorts of things Fiona and Luke do yet which remain unexplained, for example, one wonders whether there is much practical difference between a trained user of either power. At a bear minimum it seems laughable that a trained Pattern sorcerer wouldn't be able to hang spells on the Pattern, yet ADRPG would have this ability be the province of Logrus alone.
QuoteThinking about it more, it's actually possible that Amber did face rivers of lava, etc. and won anyway. We don't actually see the battle until it's all but over. If the Amberites had placed priority on taking out enemy spell casters, which Benedict almost certainly would, it's quite possible that the enemy sorcerers are simply all dead or neutralized (or out of spells) by the time Corwin catches a view of the battle.
This, however, is entirely possible. If the average D&D player knows to target the caster first then I'm sure Benedict would be aware of the tactic.
Quote from: jibbajibba;338319We have to face the fact that teh Pattern guys won because that was the correct narative result and Zelazny hadn't invented Chaos Sorcery or Logrus yet.
That's the ultimate issue, of course. Everything we are doing here is really just an attempt to justify events in an ongoing and developing narrative that rather famously relishes in inconsistency.
Interesting post Treveylan.
Quote from: Trevelyan;338387That's the ultimate issue, of course. Everything we are doing here is really just an attempt to justify events in an ongoing and developing narrative that rather famously relishes in inconsistency.
I fancy the idea that inconsistencies in Zelazny's stories are exactly what empowers ADRPG players to own the game world:
a - the story is told in character, thus disputable and open to "objective" GM interpretation
b - there are plenty of fridge logic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic) issues asking GMs and players to take a stance in order to maintain the suspension of disbelief.
And that's why I love Amber when I couldn't care for most licensed games where canon fundamentalist players might become an issue. Sorcery is an illustration of this. We're able to have a civilized discussion about it (even Pundit is usually courteous when discussing ADRPG) while we have very different opinions in general.
Quote from: Trevelyan;338387Oh, lots of good comments
Amber according to Erick strikes again.
That's actually a point I hadn't considered. If both sides can shift in armies, it could get very interesting, though that does leave us with even less hard data than before.
Quote from: Trevelyan;338387Casting a spell is quicker, but developing a new spell probably isn't. And if you go around casting the same spell all the time then people are going to anticipate it. I imagine that much of the challenge facing a decent sorcerer is the need to keep his material fresh.
The Concerto For Neutrons And Thermal Explosive Entropy spell, tailored to Amber, is something I propose to use only once. At a family reunion for instance. Of course if I manage to wipe out a decent number of people with that, everyone important and smart will have a counter spell ready, but the single shot was worth it.
I'm not against the idea of players able to cast spells. In shadows where magic exists, or in the Chaosian Courts, be my guest. But I also like the idea that the in a mundane shadow, players won't have shortcuts to just teleport, fly, tear open fortifications and basically be a one-man army. I prefer that when a fortress is causing you problem (because maybe someone you want to meet is hiding inside), you have to take the good old path of raising an army and sieging the place.
Quote from: Ivanhoe;338552I'm not against the idea of players able to cast spells. In shadows where magic exists, or in the Chaosian Courts, be my guest. But I also like the idea that the in a mundane shadow, players won't have shortcuts to just teleport, fly, tear open fortifications and basically be a one-man army. I prefer that when a fortress is causing you problem (because maybe someone you want to meet is hiding inside), you have to take the good old path of raising an army and sieging the place.
Well, in most shadows a PC in Amber is a one man army, and allowing them to stomp all over the place flexing their mystical muscle is rarely a problem. In the case of a specific shadow, though, one inhabited either by someone else with power or a pawn of someone with power, it would be reasonable to assume that anti-magical precautions had been taken.
That's not to say that magic should be rendered impotent, but I'd certainly assume that if X (or even S) is hiding inside, knows who is coming and has the resources typically available to someone the PCs are in a hurry to meet then something to hinder the more obvious spells (teleporting, knocking down walls, etc) should be in place. Perhaps with time the sorcer could pick his way past such a clumsy, amature defense, but simply dumping raw power into a ward is enough to keep the more subtle sorcerer at bay for some time.
Or you could work with the sorcerer - yes he can teleport into the castle, but how is he to find his target once past the walls (ref. Merlin in the Keep of Four Worlds), and once there can he achieve his objectives without being noticed (ditto)? He has paid for a certain power, now make him work to develop it.
let's not forget that 'Stuff' is also a strong deterniation of outcome, at least IMCs it is so. The fact that Amberites are notoriously hard to kill is a theme IMC.
Do they die?
yes, but damn if they don't seem to 'come back' almost as often.
Quote from: Trevelyan;339482Or you could work with the sorcerer - yes he can teleport into the castle, but how is he to find his target once past the walls (ref. Merlin in the Keep of Four Worlds), and once there can he achieve his objectives without being noticed (ditto)? He has paid for a certain power, now make him work to develop it.
Invisibility spell - Detection spell - Teleportation spell - (optional : Nag Nuke spell) - Trump
I think the most easy way to circumvent this is to have shadows where sorcery doesn't work, just like there are shadows that disrupt Pattern, Chaos or Trumps. And yes I houserule Amber to be such a shadow.
Quote from: Ivanhoe;339651Invisibility spell - Detection spell - Teleportation spell - (optional : Nag Nuke spell) - Trump
All of which make for an interesting story if the PC puts the effort into pulling that off. But all it takes is something unexpected, like a significant NPC, a trap or an alarm of some sort to mix things up. If the target a prisoner? then perhaps he is being interrogated at the time. Is is a guest in the castle? then perhaps he is eating breakfast in the main hall, surrounded by witnesses when the PC arrives.
QuoteI think the most easy way to circumvent this is to have shadows where sorcery doesn't work, just like there are shadows that disrupt Pattern, Chaos or Trumps. And yes I houserule Amber to be such a shadow.
Personally, I detest all such shadows on general principle.
Quote from: Trevelyan;338387Amber according to Erick strikes again. There is actually little to no evidence suggesting that Logrus users traverse shadow in a manner different from Pattern users, and indeed some limited evidence to suggest that they walk in just the same way.
Um, no, actually, if were to read the novels straight, it would seem to imply that Logrus Users CAN'T travel through shadow, except through black roads and shadow paths. They need those in order to go anywhere.
RPGPundit
Having a campaign where there's a ton of shadows where Sorcery doesn't work is considerably less douchey than having a ton of shadows where pattern or logrus don't work.
Its implicit that Sorcery is supposed to be a mostly crappy power; the whole problem is in fact that game-wise, sorcery is too easy to abuse to make it into something that is far from a crap power.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;340351Its implicit that Sorcery is supposed to be a mostly crappy power; the whole problem is in fact that game-wise, sorcery is too easy to abuse to make it into something that is far from a crap power.
RPGPundit
You see I find that is a problem. Yes the rules want sorcery to be a crappy power, but they fail to implement that becuase they try to emulate the books. In the books despite the fact that the Amberites don't seem to use it much Merlin shows its a genuine power. Merlin has all the powers in the book (literally) but it's sorcery he generally uses to resolve his conflicts. And the Spikards, possibly some of the most powerful items in the Amberverse basically use socery, yes there are multiple power lines and all that but the spikard just uses sorcery basically.
So I would say that the fact that sorcery is meant to be a crappy power is not represented in the novels and though the ADRPG would like it to be crappy (mainly by making it cheaper which is an odd way to make something less popular) it isn't crappy there either.
Quote from: RPGPundit;340350Um, no, actually, if were to read the novels straight, it would seem to imply that Logrus Users CAN'T travel through shadow, except through black roads and shadow paths. They need those in order to go anywhere.
My sweaty left testicle it does.
For a start, Merlin doesn't differentiate between using Pattern and using Logrus to travel through shadow. The assumption is often made that he uses Pattern because the description of shadow travel matche that in the Corwin series where we know Pattern is involved, but that remains an assumption. Merlin does specifically comment on the fact that he uses Chaos magic rather than Pattern magic due to familiarity, might he not do the same with his shadow travel? Or indeed might it not matter if the power is the same either way? Certainly Amberites don't invoke the Pattern to move through shadow, why should Chaosites need to manifest the Logrus in some manner?
In the introduction to Trumps of Doom, IIRC, Merlin seems to think that walking the Logrus will enable him to head off into shadow and do his own thing, and Jurt specifically asks Merlin afterwards what it is like to have mastered the Logrus, to walk in Shadow and to work with a higher order of magic than the mundane. In each case, they don't seem to anticipate a need to go to the effort of using a black road.
Mandor isn't remotely worried about joining Merlin in shadow or in Amber itself and has no apparent doubts about his ability to get home. He could intend to use magic, or perhaps summon a black road from the middle of nowhere, but the evidence suggests that creating a black road is something of an effort, requiring some authority or power.
In the entire series we see three examples of a black road, the original example in the Corwin series, the road used by the kidnappers of Coral, and the airborne ribbon that Suhuy uses to send a demon to fetch Merlin and bring him back to Chaos at speed. In each of these cases, the road is a method used to transport underlings through shadow and not principle characters who might reasonably be Logrus masters. And Merlin himself is apparently sufficnetly ill versed in these things that he takes time to study the aerial road having not previously encountered such a thing, or apparently been aware of their existence - hardly likely for an application of the only method of shadow travel available to Chaosites.
And what about the Chaos beasts which we know canmove through shadow unaided (various demons manage this, although not all can apparently do so)? Are we to suppose that the Lords of Chaos, having mastered the greatest of their powers, lack a power which any number of lesser demons seem to share?