Sorcery, the novels and the DRPG

[scottishstorm]

Wow, the subject of sorcery seems to be a hot one for Amber players.  Some players and GMs consider sorcery overpowered and charge extra points for it or disallow it at character creation.  Surely, I can see where part of this stems.  In the Merlin books, everyone and their dog was a sorcerer.

Bah.  Yes, bah, I say!

First, "sorcery" can be used to describe any supernatural power.  Corwin's described as a sorcerer by Ganelon, Lance, Lorraine and others.  Each of them seems to mean something different by 'sorcerer'.  And, to my memory, the only thing that can be almost surely qualified as traditional magic is in Guns of Avalon when Corwin gives Stygwhatever a "hotfoot".  (Oooh, impressive sorcery, that!)  I think everything else is questionable and may instead reflect Corwin's mastery/proficiency with the Pattern.

Again, we then get into the Merlin books and words like "sorcery," "magic", "spells" and "linchpins" become buzzwords and repeated (seemingly) as often as possible.  We also have "Pattern Magic", "Logrus Magic," etc.

I repeat.  Bah.

To start, the DRPG sorcery is arguably not Merlin's sorcery.  IMO, sorcery (as it's presented in the DRPG) is but one means to an end.  It is utility and a minor power.  It is also a way to justify certain in-character actions or events, but it's also kept in perspective.   Sure, a spell can kill.  But, so can a thrown rock and Pattern/Logrus/Trump defense is probably less useful in protecting you against the rock. . .

I'd like to call upon GMs to understand and make it known to their players that real power is Pattern, Logrus and Trump (and possibly shapeshifting).  Sorcery, power words and conjuration are a means to an end that can be augmented by some other use of real power but it's the real powers that matter.  I occasionally see people overvaluing sorcery and it frustrates me as a player who loves the genre.

As an aside, one of the options listed in the DRPG is to throw away the magic system.  I happen to like this a great deal.  Make 'sorcery' on the same level as surgery (in that most of the elders have some high degree of proficiency in it to be used if or when necessary).  Then, neuter magic a little.  Traditional magic may not work in Amber proper, for instance.  Someone with sorcery skills can manipulate magic to a comparable degree that a Pattern initiate can manipulate shadow.  And, guess what?  Pattern > magic.  So, enemy spellcasters are put into perspective and fairly easily defeatable by a Pattern initiate with or without sorcery training.

Finally, if sorcery is "free" then things more naturally translate to the major powers and attributes.  it eliminates Player A griping because Player B's sorcery power is waaay too powerful for  a 15-pointer (or Player B sulking because Player A 'turned off' or scaled down magic by use of Pattern).

[Ivanhoe]

Sorcery allows to teleport a one ton rock on the top of the head of anyone. Letting a sorcerer approach you is like allowing someone with a machine gun to point at you. A machine gun that would work perfectly in Amber castle.

I consider that when magic exists in a shadow, players usually feel it and can use it with their psyche, but that is an internal shadow thing. It doesn't work in Amber, neither does it on earth. Corwin is obviously called a sorcerer because he was in a magical realm, was competent at spellcasting, but more importantly could use tricks with pattern and trumps to have a strong edge.

In a fight, sorcery gives too much an edge for its price, and allows for shortcuts that should not exist. I would accept a sorcery power that gives an edge on magically active shadows (and the chaosian court) but that would not have cross-shadow abilities nor any power in Amber or Earth.

I don't see pattern as a superior power, as it won't stop rocks magically thrown at you, won't prevent the suppression of air or the destroying of your army by a single sorcerer.

Power words and trump artistry provide enough interesting possibilities in my humble opinion. When combined with the ability to find anything in Shadow and a bit of imagination, you can get potent powers for a bit of real work from the player and a damn more satisfying experience. I'm sure that sorcery would not be required to do something like Ghostwheel.

[jibbajibba]

You have to decide how close to 'canon' you want to be.
In the second chronicles, and it's from here we have to base the canon of sorcery, Merlin uses sorcery in Amber and Earth quite freely. With the correct degree of preparation it seems sorcery is indeed a potent force.
I think the way sorcery works in ADRPG (an indeed in Pundit's variation on it) is pretty good. It's a flexible toolset that can cope with just about every issue.
I think that it is too cheap.
I think that Erick's argument that it is cheap because its weaker than other powers and it's boring and dull to keep maintaining spells is spurious. A player that wants to use sorcery will be quite happy having their character get up at 5 every morning and spend 2 hours on spell maintenance. The GM saying well you fancy a bit of a snooze after that party last night will be met with derision and rightly so.
Also in the books it doesn't seem to be weaker than other powers rather it seems like a tool to make use of those powers in more creative and agressive ways.

You could roll pattern sorcery into Pattern, an off-shoot (in power tree terms) and you could do the same with Logrus but this then creates the exception of all the other sorcerers that turn up in the Merlin Chronicles and have no main power just sorcery.

I think the Power source is the key. I wrote this up some place else and intend to use it in my current game. Each shadow has a Magic score from 0 - 5 this can be used to power magic in this shadow. Sorcerers can make use of Logrus and Pattern to power their spells instead or like the Spikard create links out to power sources in shadow but this is time consuming. Also like the Font of Power power sources in shadow are in demand and need to be defended.
I have also increased the copst of Magic (sorcery and conjuration) with a 10 point starting cost. In a game with partial powers where you can get basic shadow walking for 10 points paying the 10 points entrance for sorcery seems a high price.

So you get 3 sorts of sorcerer
1 - Casual sorcerers - these are rare as the point cost is a lot to pay if you are just going to hang a few spells that rely on the inherent magic of their current shadow for effect.
2 - Pattern/Logrus/Trump Sorcerers - these guys have payed extra to be able to fuse their magic with a greater power. They will by definition be studious types and will put a lot of work into their powers
3 - Full blown Sorcerers - these guys will have characters based round sorcery they will probably have a power to back it up and will have lots of preparation. Items created with lines out to shadow powers, primal shadows that provide that power and which are well defended.

I think this works. The problem with the games as it comes is that sorcery is cheap and flexible but also everything else is expensive. To get full sorcery powers will cost you 25 points in my game more to make use of powers and more if you tie it to a power source in shadow that you need to buy stuff to defend.  Compare that to being able to use a range of trump tricks or get basic logrus powers or all the other goodies on offer and it no longer looks so cheap, but at the same time I think it emulates the books.

[boulet]

I like Jibbajibba's angle on source of power.

In my campaigns sorcery hasn't been an issue. My players didn't munchkinize it and I insisted that it needed preparation and a way to store the spells. My players preferring spontaneity over planning it was enough to keep sorcery in check.

[Trevelyan]

Sorcery is another of my ADRPG bugbears (I have a lot of those). Fundementally, I think that ADRPG gets the sorcery system more or less right, which is to say that the whole system of hanging spells, lynchpins, etc seems to tie in pretty well with what Merlin does in the second series (and also with the way in which magic is used in several other Zelazny books - it's nice to have opinions corroberated like that). That said, there are some glaring errors in by-the-book sorcery, and it does all overlook the fact that Merlin practices only one form of sorcery while several other characters have rather different tricks.

My main issue with ADRPG sorcery is the time factor (cost may be an issue, but my own house rules eliminate this so I won't address it here). Simply put, ADRPG vastly over exaggerates the time it takes to devise and cast spells. At several points during the books Merlin comments on casting times, mentioning that the invisibility spell is particularly complicated, taking the best part of 20 minutes to cast (which is as quick as trivial spell casting gets in ADRPG). Or commenting that it takes too long to cast a spell in combat if you don't have one prepared (with ADRPG casting times often upwards of 2 hours this would be the understatement of the centuary, so I suspect that merlin is envisaging castig times of between several seconds and a minute, which is consistent with other Zelazny books). Even spell creation times appear drastically wrong. Merlin comments that it can take several days to devise a full rack of spells, to practice them and rehurse their release, and on one occasion takes a day out of his schedule to do just this. Yet Merlin isn't taking a day to prepare spells he already knows, he is taking a day to devise entirely new spells and practice with them. When we see Merlin tackling a new spell he works it out from scratch in one evening while riding a horse. Again the ADRPG timescales, which can deal in weeks, are way off base.

Moving out from there, it seems that certain ADRPG assumptions are correct in that many elder amberites can and do use some minor forms of magic. Corwin has the famous "hot foot" example (a powerword in ADPRG parlance), but even Flora expresses an interest in Merlin's invisibility spell untill he mentions the casting time, suggesting that she has at least some familiarity with the principles and doesn't consider magic to be some entirely esoteric art beyond her ability to use. I'd argue that the typical elder Amberite probably knows a few minor cantrips which might come in hand here or there, but which are often forgotten in favour of the ease with which Pattern (or Logrus) can accomplish the same sort of feats.

I think the advantages of proper, dedicated sorcerers are twofold. One, they understand magic on an academic level and are capable of fairly rapidly devising new spells. Where the casual practitioner might know a couple of curses or that useful spell that Fiona taught them once as a favour, it takes a pro to sit down, analyse the situation and work out a spell to do something particular.

The second advantage, which is related to this, is that proper sorcerers understand how to draw energy from the sources available to them, channel it and manipulate it to their best advantage. Merlin talks about the distinction between Logrus and Pattern magic, and how he is qualified to use both. We know that Jasra and Julia rely on their connection with the Broken Pattern, and Suhuy even outright states that Chaos is the power which underlies Merlin's spells. Proper sorcerers draw energy from power sources to which they are attuned and use this to craft carefully constructed spells. Merlin comments that those who are less particular (and perhaps less well trained?) resort to throwing raw energy around, which only works when you have a large source. One might reasonably deduce from this that the amature sorcerer must often use his or her personal energy to cast spells, which are themselves rather more draining, perhaps explaining why they are reluctant to use magic much of the time.

Is magic too powerful? It's hard to say based on the limited information available, but Merlin himself comments on how hard it is for one sorcerer to kill another using sorcererous means. Presumably a combination of magical sensitivity and skill makes it simple to detect and mitigate any surprise attack or slower working such that dualing sorcerers must resort of quick and flashy attacks which are mor dramatic but often no more effective than simply slashing at someone with a sword. Obviously a simple swordsman might lack the ability to negate a spell cast in his direction, but equally a sorcerer casting spells is often surprisingly vulnerable to a swift and unexpected dagger.

Merlin comments that sorcerers are a dime a dozen on the courts and that his own mother was disappointed in him for taking up the profession (although she may instead have been angry that he had chosen an area of study which might make her life more complicated by providing him with the means to oppose/resist her). It might well be the case that the majority of those were "lesser" sorcerers, not initiates of the Logrus and therefore not able to muster any serious power, but for whatever reason, this plethora of mages was unable to do much during the Patternfall War.

The notion that magic is a trivial menace compared with the major powers, coupled with the idea that most elders seem to have some basic operation knowledge of magic suggests that sorcery shouldn't easily overpower the average Amberite - attacks can be dodged and complusions resisted - hence the power serves a largely utility/cosmetic function. On that basis the point cost need not be significant, especially if serious sorcery relies on having a major power which is often harder to resist. The utility value of sorcery remains the more challenging issue in that it is inhernetly more adaptable, yet the flexibility of shadow walking is itself a challenge in that regard, so the net gain to sorcery is difficult to measure. A character must still plan ahead and have a spell prepared, yet a shadow walker can often use the time taken to devise a new spell to find another, equally beneficial approach to a problem.

[jibbajibba]

Sorcery is another of my ADRPG bugbears (I have a lot of those). Fundementally, I think that ADRPG gets the sorcery system more or less right, which is to say that the whole system of hanging spells, lynchpins, etc seems to tie in pretty well with what Merlin does in the second series (and also with the way in which magic is used in several other Zelazny books - it's nice to have opinions corroberated like that). That said, there are some glaring errors in by-the-book sorcery, and it does all overlook the fact that Merlin practices only one form of sorcery while several other characters have rather different tricks.

My main issue with ADRPG sorcery is the time factor (cost may be an issue, but my own house rules eliminate this so I won't address it here). Simply put, ADRPG vastly over exaggerates the time it takes to devise and cast spells. At several points during the books Merlin comments on casting times, mentioning that the invisibility spell is particularly complicated, taking the best part of 20 minutes to cast (which is as quick as trivial spell casting gets in ADRPG). Or commenting that it takes too long to cast a spell in combat if you don't have one prepared (with ADRPG casting times often upwards of 2 hours this would be the understatement of the centuary, so I suspect that merlin is envisaging castig times of between several seconds and a minute, which is consistent with other Zelazny books). Even spell creation times appear drastically wrong. Merlin comments that it can take several days to devise a full rack of spells, to practice them and rehurse their release, and on one occasion takes a day out of his schedule to do just this. Yet Merlin isn't taking a day to prepare spells he already knows, he is taking a day to devise entirely new spells and practice with them. When we see Merlin tackling a new spell he works it out from scratch in one evening while riding a horse. Again the ADRPG timescales, which can deal in weeks, are way off base.

Moving out from there, it seems that certain ADRPG assumptions are correct in that many elder amberites can and do use some minor forms of magic. Corwin has the famous "hot foot" example (a powerword in ADPRG parlance), but even Flora expresses an interest in Merlin's invisibility spell untill he mentions the casting time, suggesting that she has at least some familiarity with the principles and doesn't consider magic to be some entirely esoteric art beyond her ability to use. I'd argue that the typical elder Amberite probably knows a few minor cantrips which might come in hand here or there, but which are often forgotten in favour of the ease with which Pattern (or Logrus) can accomplish the same sort of feats.

I think the advantages of proper, dedicated sorcerers are twofold. One, they understand magic on an academic level and are capable of fairly rapidly devising new spells. Where the casual practitioner might know a couple of curses or that useful spell that Fiona taught them once as a favour, it takes a pro to sit down, analyse the situation and work out a spell to do something particular.

The second advantage, which is related to this, is that proper sorcerers understand how to draw energy from the sources available to them, channel it and manipulate it to their best advantage. Merlin talks about the distinction between Logrus and Pattern magic, and how he is qualified to use both. We know that Jasra and Julia rely on their connection with the Broken Pattern, and Suhuy even outright states that Chaos is the power which underlies Merlin's spells. Proper sorcerers draw energy from power sources to which they are attuned and use this to craft carefully constructed spells. Merlin comments that those who are less particular (and perhaps less well trained?) resort to throwing raw energy around, which only works when you have a large source. One might reasonably deduce from this that the amature sorcerer must often use his or her personal energy to cast spells, which are themselves rather more draining, perhaps explaining why they are reluctant to use magic much of the time.

Is magic too powerful? It's hard to say based on the limited information available, but Merlin himself comments on how hard it is for one sorcerer to kill another using sorcererous means. Presumably a combination of magical sensitivity and skill makes it simple to detect and mitigate any surprise attack or slower working such that dualing sorcerers must resort of quick and flashy attacks which are mor dramatic but often no more effective than simply slashing at someone with a sword. Obviously a simple swordsman might lack the ability to negate a spell cast in his direction, but equally a sorcerer casting spells is often surprisingly vulnerable to a swift and unexpected dagger.

Merlin comments that sorcerers are a dime a dozen on the courts and that his own mother was disappointed in him for taking up the profession (although she may instead have been angry that he had chosen an area of study which might make her life more complicated by providing him with the means to oppose/resist her). It might well be the case that the majority of those were "lesser" sorcerers, not initiates of the Logrus and therefore not able to muster any serious power, but for whatever reason, this plethora of mages was unable to do much during the Patternfall War.

The notion that magic is a trivial menace compared with the major powers, coupled with the idea that most elders seem to have some basic operation knowledge of magic suggests that sorcery shouldn't easily overpower the average Amberite - attacks can be dodged and complusions resisted - hence the power serves a largely utility/cosmetic function. On that basis the point cost need not be significant, especially if serious sorcery relies on having a major power which is often harder to resist. The utility value of sorcery remains the more challenging issue in that it is inhernetly more adaptable, yet the flexibility of shadow walking is itself a challenge in that regard, so the net gain to sorcery is difficult to measure. A character must still plan ahead and have a spell prepared, yet a shadow walker can often use the time taken to devise a new spell to find another, equally beneficial approach to a problem.

All good points I totally agree with the stuff round timing and assume this was another rather crude game mechanic to make sorcery less appealing. However, the stuff round the utility of sorcery is less convincing. I really get the fellignt hat Merlin woudl have thought that his cunisart offensive spell would be enough to finish off just about anyone who didn't have magic to defend themself and I think that the potential for magic as both a tool and an offensive force is massive. Authors are notoriously prone in putting plot and character before maximum use of powers. RPG players have no such qualms. A simple look at what Superman would do in the hands of a powergamer is proof enough. A simple task like creating a bloody big rock to squash some one is almost always going to be lethal (unless you imagine Gerard energing Cartoonishly from beneath it only now 2 dimentional). Created items are now items and pattern defense will do you no good agaisnt a rock than they would against a sword.
Also it is not advisable to assume that a sorcerer can't be a warrior as well that is a RGG trope that you need to put aside in Amber. Sure 'power' collectors generally have less stats that 'stat' collectors but never bet that a sorcerer doesn't also have 60 points in warfare

[scottishstorm]

Warfare-based sorcery can be interesting, viable, and fun.

Back in the days of AmberMUSH, a memorable character was blind, a sorcerer, and had 100 Warfare (or damn close to it).  His spells?  Fog of war, Darkness, blindness and other spells  to confuse the senses: particularly sight.

But, I kick my original point by the above....

I think it may be up to a particular theme or style the GM has decided for their game.  Regarding sorcery being overpowered or too much hype, I mean that I would balk at some pissant newbie sorcerer defeating the likes of Benedict, Gerard or Corwin with mere sorcery.  This isn't only a system of game balance.  The elders have existed a looooooong time.  They all have egos the size of Australia as well, and will happily pick a fight with just about anyone.  This sort of arrogance just doesn't tie in with the idea "Oh, shit!  I didn't know he was a wizard!  Now I'm dead!"

[jibbajibba]

I think it may be up to a particular theme or style the GM has decided for their game.  Regarding sorcery being overpowered or too much hype, I mean that I would balk at some pissant newbie sorcerer defeating the likes of Benedict, Gerard or Corwin with mere sorcery.  This isn't only a system of game balance.  The elders have existed a looooooong time.  They all have egos the size of Australia as well, and will happily pick a fight with just about anyone.  This sort of arrogance just doesn't tie in with the idea "Oh, shit!  I didn't know he was a wizard!  Now I'm dead!"

But ... Luke, a newbie PC, kills Caine with a fucking hand-grenade so these guys are not immortal.

I don't use the Elders but if I did and a player actually outsmarted one of them and put him in a position where a spell could kill him well... good for them.

[scottishstorm]

But ... Luke, a newbie PC, kills Caine with a fucking hand-grenade so these guys are not immortal.

I don't use the Elders but if I did and a player actually outsmarted one of them and put him in a position where a spell could kill him well... good for them.

That's one way of looking at it.

Another way is (and forgive any insult) "Bad for you.  You failed as a GM."  Not saying that it's impossible for a PC to outsmart/kill an elder.  I just think it's a momentous event that should never be handled lightly.

[jibbajibba]

That's one way of looking at it.

Another way is (and forgive any insult) "Bad for you.  You failed as a GM."  Not saying that it's impossible for a PC to outsmart/kill an elder.  I just think it's a momentous event that should never be handled lightly.

Well .... its not my job as GM to make sure that my NPCs never die of course I could do that and of course outsmarting the NPC is going to be tricky as I am both infitely resourceful and full of wisdom but ...

Anyway one reason I don't use elders is exactly for this reason. I don't want a game where i have 16 NPCs who are infinitely 'better' than the PCs I want the PCs to be the protagonists not relegated to supporting roles while I fulfil some masturbatory GM fantasy of hey look isn't my NPC cool

Lastly when my 'uber-NPCs' get cornered they usually talk their way out of things.
'Look Septimus you can kill me but then you will never find out who your real father is ...'
'It seems I am at your mercy Felix but before you kill me think about the knowledge and power I could impart to you. The secrets of the universe Felix can be yours to command...'
etc

Part of the way I run a game is to make the PCs feel real , lots of background , lots of focused effort to understand them. This usually means that I can save an NPC from death if I need to with a bit of dialogue an an expression, I certainly don't need to nerf the sorcery rules to do it

[scottishstorm]

Hiya, jib,

I returned to the forum to see you already posted.  

One thing I want to make clear is when I said "You fail as a GM" I was using 'you' in a general sense and not you specifically.  I have loads of respect for your ideas and opinions.  If I didn't, I wouldn't be interested in your game.  I only meant that an Amber GM has a responsibility (if they use the elders) to make those elders not only larger than life, but a frightening force (and God help you if one wants you dead).

[jibbajibba]

Hiya, jib,

I returned to the forum to see you already posted.  

One thing I want to make clear is when I said "You fail as a GM" I was using 'you' in a general sense and not you specifically.  I have loads of respect for your ideas and opinions.  If I didn't, I wouldn't be interested in your game.  I only meant that an Amber GM has a responsibility (if they use the elders) to make those elders not only larger than life, but a frightening force (and God help you if one wants you dead).

My comments when I said 'I' were to be taken as I the Amber GM and not me the chap

I still think a GMs job is to play the NPCs as they are not to play the NPCs as divinely omnisentient beings (baring the fact that some of them of course might be Omnisentient Beings) .

[Ivanhoe]

Sorry, scottishstorm, but I tend to disagree.

Most of my players play Amber because they wanted to continue the story written in the books. They did not want to be frightened children looking up at the gods they could maybe become in a hundred gaming sessions. They did want to be part of the game from the start. Elders have a frightening power, that's right, but so must the player be, or begin to be. When a new player arrives in Amber, it causes more than a shrug to Elders. They try to test him, to use him, to understand where it stands.

The players are the likes of Merlin or Martin, that is not nothing. Elders know they are more powerful, but they do display some caution like you would to some poisonous snake.

[scottishstorm]

I think  may have been taken out of context a little.

Player character should have a fair (this is game-balance "fair" not ethically fair) chance of defeating an elder.  "Defeating" need not be limited to killing, but it could go that route also.

To sum up some of the points I'm trying to make:

• If an attack strikes you, the GM, as obvious in some way.  Then it should probably be considered the same for the elder.
• Sorcery has been around for a long time and the elders have had to deal with sorcerers in some form or another.  It seems unlikely that a new PC is going to take an elder out with a spell. (as a 'finishing move'?  That has potential, or as part of a long recipe of action, sure.  I just mean you don't simply walk up and say, "Hii, Benedict.  How's it' going?" and then ZAP and old Benny turns to ash)
• Even if an idea strikes you, the GM, as particularly innovative, there's a chance the elders already know about it or know how tro deal with it.  Give the elders the benefit of the doubt.  They are smarter than you and have a vast range of experience to their credit.  This doesn't make them infallible, but do keep it in mind.

[Gothic_Pepsi]

just getting back on topic, i have never considered sorcery that great of a power, despite allways having it as a PC. the thing is, i use it like an Amberite/Chaosian, not some player on a power trip, i dont go, hmm this spell can actaully kill Random, i might kill him! no i think, this spell CAN kill Random, however it is more likley that all his damn gaurds will kill me! also a gm should step in if a player goes, i want to have a spell that instantly makes someone explode! then go, hang on, this spell is actually too powerful, i will make it so that the explosion is so big it will also kill the PC, or with the giant rock. I do understand there are some PC's out there on a power trip (infact im playing with one right now). ergo sorcery is not overpowered, if a spell becomes too powerful, have it so it requires a large Psyche to cast, by large i mean larger then Fiona's and Brand's. sure there are some spells that COULD kill NPC's and other PC's, but have it so that there is consequences, like Fiona popping a mind link on the PC and just crush their mind etc.

thanks for listening to my rant on this subject