Sorcery, the novels and the DRPG

[Klaus]

Secondly I think you over estimate Benedict in regard to sorcery and tactics with dealing with it.

I used Benedict's name because he was in charge of the battle. Realizing "hey, we should kill the sorcerers" is trivial, and killing a sorcerer is much like killing anyone else.

I think Pattern is great to get you to a battle but once you are there Logrus is probably a more useful power.

How so?

We have to face the fact that teh Pattern guys won because that was the correct narative result and Zelazny hadn't invented Chaos Sorcery or Logrus yet.

Everything happens because that's the narrative result Zelazny wanted. Amber still won, and I maintain that there are perfectly logical explanations beyond "author fiat."

[Trevelyan]

Oh, lots of good comments

Yes and no.
I believe in a fight between guy a and guy b where guy a has 15 points (and 1 rank) advantage in Warfare and guy b has sorcery + 15 and 15 points less warfare (being 1 rank) the guy with sorcery will win in a fight.

I agree with you there entirely. Of course, I'd also suggest that if the sorcerer put those points into upping his Endurance rank and fought defensively then he'd probably do equally well. And if the warfare guy knew he'd be fighting a sorcerer and took precautions then... etc. As long as you don't spread yourself too thin, diversity is generally going to produce better results over a range of situations than focusing. You could also consider the same situation in reverse. If one character had sorcery and points in Psyche, and another had sorcery, lost a few points in Psyche and put them in Warfare, then my money would be on the Warfare guy. It's just a question of being able to strike where the other guy is weak without exposing yourself too much where the other guy is strong.

Hmmm no ? When the shadow in question is Amber, a primal plane, an owned shadow with its set of rules, it is not possible to just find a nuke and detonate it. Even when it is possible, casting a spell is incredibly quicker than going into shadow to find what you need and bring it back.

Casting a spell is quicker, but developing a new spell probably isn't. And if you go around casting the same spell all the time then people are going to anticipate it. I imagine that much of the challenge facing a decent sorcerer is the need to keep his material fresh.

As for the whole Amber/Primal Plane/Owned Shadow thing, that's the kind of junk that I happily discard frmo my games. It falls foul of the most basic Erick vs. Roger test.

Sorcery is more akin to a big black box that will do what you want for free and that just works. That is, in my opinion, far less interesting.

I think that depends on how much effort you put into explaining sorcery in your games. If I have a player who is interested in the power then I'll put much more time into developing the whys and the wherefores to make sorcery both interesting and appropriately limited.

Now I agree the 2nd series is flawed but I think it does give us a better world for roleplaying in, as I tired to express above. I also agree that the lack of Sorcery at the final Patternfall battle is hard to explain in retrospect.

I tend to agree re the Merlin series. Thematically it is a lot sloppier, but it opens up a far larger world which suits an RPG much better. Of sorcery at Patternfall, more later.

My interpretation is: the Chaosian who want the Pattern removed might be a minority.

Again, I tend to agree. I think that the attitude might be something like that of the Scottish nationalists who are eager to see Scotland become entirely independant from England - it's a cause which inspres a great deal of flag waving and rhetoric, but when you look at the numbers, the vast majority of people (>66%) are happy with the status quo. I imagine that most chaosites are happy enough with the Pattern where it is, but that those who might want it removed tend to have louder voices. And flags. Never forget the flags.

Just like Corwin couldn't explain why Borel wanted to fight by the rules of chivalry... There are very different cultural values involved.

"'Can a magician kill a man by magic?' Lord Wellington asked Strange. Strange frowned. He seemed to dislike the question. 'I suppose a magician might,' he admitted, 'but a gentleman never could.'" - Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell.

One suggestion could simply be that the forces of chaos don't believe that sorcery is an appropriate weapon to use in a time of war. If Dara thought that a career in magic was beneath her son (although interestingly not beneath either her or Mandor) then it might reflect a cultural view of magic as somewhat beneath great men, who would in turn disdain the use of magic in favour of personal prowess in battle.

Given that we have no idea how many chaosians, let alone Logrus masters there actually are, it's also possible that Fiona, perhaps with some backup, was simply able to keep screwing with the local rules of magic to keep anyone from casting spells. If she gives the local laws of magic a kick every so often, no one will be able to complete a spell.

Personally I doubt that Fiona would be capable of such a feat by herself, but the limit on the number of sorcerers and Logrus masters in Chaos is something that I can absolutely get behind.

Merlin comments on the fact that there are many sorcerers in and around Chaos and Amber, but he also mentions that they tend to draw power from somewhat limited and imperfect sources. In Chaos it appears that many sorcerers are akin to local tradesmen, raising serious questions as to the extent of their power. And consider that neither Merlin nor Mandor seemed particularly worried about the thought of taking on an unknown shadow sorcerer, even one in control of a significant magical resource and aided by Jurt (although Jurt might fall into the liability rather than the asset category). It is entirely plausible to suggest that the vast majority of sorcerers just can't cut the mustard when compared with the genuine article from Chaos or Amber. Dara's boast about being a sorcerer of particularly high caliber makes much more sense if you consider that most shadow sorcerers, lacking a connection to a true power, can't match her, and most highly ranked Chaosites, who might draw on the Logrus, elect not to for social reasons.

Merlin suggests at one point that he knows and is familiar with the style of all the Trump artists in Chaos. This suggests a fairly limited pool. I certainly don't see more than the core family in each of the major houses being expected to assay the Logrus by deault, with perhaps a handful of others who decide to risk it for the chance to better themselves. If every Logrus user is both coached by Suhuy and taught a secret path through the labyrinth to reach it, that suggests a relatively small group indeed.

Indifference on Chaos's part isn't needed to explain Amber's victory. For one thing, Pattern is clearly superior to Logrus when it comes to fighting battles. A Logrus user can pull himself and maybe a few others into an adjacent shadow, making a small strike team appear at the enemy's rear. Pattern can lead unlimited numbers into an adjacent shadow, causing whole armies to appear on previously undefended flanks.

Amber according to Erick strikes again. There is actually little to no evidence suggesting that Logrus users traverse shadow in a manner different from Pattern users, and indeed some limited evidence to suggest that they walk in just the same way. The whole notion of Logrus users sending out tendrils and pulling themselves is a creation of ADRPG. Of course, the assumed flexibility of the Logrus vs. the apparent limitations of the Pattern are largely a result of seeing the Pattern as used by a guy with little interest in esoteric powers, and the Logrus used by a guy who took post grad lessons in doing funny tricks. Looking at the sorts of things Fiona and Luke do yet which remain unexplained, for example, one wonders whether there is much practical difference between a trained user of either power. At a bear minimum it seems laughable that a trained Pattern sorcerer wouldn't be able to hang spells on the Pattern, yet ADRPG would have this ability be the province of Logrus alone.

Thinking about it more, it's actually possible that Amber did face rivers of lava, etc. and won anyway. We don't actually see the battle until it's all but over. If the Amberites had placed priority on taking out enemy spell casters, which Benedict almost certainly would, it's quite possible that the enemy sorcerers are simply all dead or neutralized (or out of spells) by the time Corwin catches a view of the battle.

This, however, is entirely possible. If the average D&D player knows to target the caster first then I'm sure Benedict would be aware of the tactic.

We have to face the fact that teh Pattern guys won because that was the correct narative result and Zelazny hadn't invented Chaos Sorcery or Logrus yet.

That's the ultimate issue, of course. Everything we are doing here is really just an attempt to justify events in an ongoing and developing narrative that rather famously relishes in inconsistency.

[boulet]

Interesting post Treveylan.

That's the ultimate issue, of course. Everything we are doing here is really just an attempt to justify events in an ongoing and developing narrative that rather famously relishes in inconsistency.

I fancy the idea that inconsistencies in Zelazny's stories are exactly what empowers ADRPG players to own the game world:
a - the story is told in character, thus disputable and open to "objective" GM interpretation
b - there are plenty of fridge logic issues asking GMs and players to take a stance in order to maintain the suspension of disbelief.

And that's why I love Amber when I couldn't care for most licensed games where canon fundamentalist players might become an issue. Sorcery is an illustration of this. We're able to have a civilized discussion about it (even Pundit is usually courteous when discussing ADRPG) while we have very different opinions in general.

[Klaus]

Oh, lots of good comments
Amber according to Erick strikes again.

That's actually a point I hadn't considered. If both sides can shift in armies, it could get very interesting, though that does leave us with even less hard data than before.

[Ivanhoe]

Casting a spell is quicker, but developing a new spell probably isn't. And if you go around casting the same spell all the time then people are going to anticipate it. I imagine that much of the challenge facing a decent sorcerer is the need to keep his material fresh.

The Concerto For Neutrons And Thermal Explosive Entropy spell, tailored to Amber, is something I propose to use only once. At a family reunion for instance. Of course if I manage to wipe out a decent number of people with that, everyone important and smart will have a counter spell ready, but the single shot was worth it.

I'm not against the idea of players able to cast spells. In shadows where magic exists, or in the Chaosian Courts, be my guest. But I also like the idea that the in a mundane shadow, players won't have shortcuts to just teleport, fly, tear open fortifications and basically be a one-man army. I prefer that when a fortress is causing you problem (because maybe someone you want to meet is hiding inside), you have to take the good old path of raising an army and sieging the place.

[Trevelyan]

I'm not against the idea of players able to cast spells. In shadows where magic exists, or in the Chaosian Courts, be my guest. But I also like the idea that the in a mundane shadow, players won't have shortcuts to just teleport, fly, tear open fortifications and basically be a one-man army. I prefer that when a fortress is causing you problem (because maybe someone you want to meet is hiding inside), you have to take the good old path of raising an army and sieging the place.

Well, in most shadows a PC in Amber is a one man army, and allowing them to stomp all over the place flexing their mystical muscle is rarely a problem. In the case of a specific shadow, though, one inhabited either by someone else with power or a pawn of someone with power, it would be reasonable to assume that anti-magical precautions had been taken.

That's not to say that magic should be rendered impotent, but I'd certainly assume that if X (or even S) is hiding inside, knows who is coming and has the resources typically available to someone the PCs are in a hurry to meet then something to hinder the more obvious spells (teleporting, knocking down walls, etc) should be in place. Perhaps with time the sorcer could pick his way past such a clumsy, amature defense, but simply dumping raw power into a ward is enough to keep the more subtle sorcerer at bay for some time.

Or you could work with the sorcerer - yes he can teleport into the castle, but how is he to find his target once past the walls (ref. Merlin in the Keep of Four Worlds), and once there can he achieve his objectives without being noticed (ditto)? He has paid for a certain power, now make him work to develop it.

[gabriel_ss4u]

let's not forget that 'Stuff' is also a strong deterniation of outcome, at least IMCs it is so. The fact that Amberites are notoriously hard to kill is a theme IMC.
Do they die?
yes, but damn if they don't seem to 'come back' almost as often.

[Ivanhoe]

Or you could work with the sorcerer - yes he can teleport into the castle, but how is he to find his target once past the walls (ref. Merlin in the Keep of Four Worlds), and once there can he achieve his objectives without being noticed (ditto)? He has paid for a certain power, now make him work to develop it.

Invisibility spell - Detection spell - Teleportation spell - (optional : Nag Nuke spell) - Trump
I think the most easy way to circumvent this is to have shadows where sorcery doesn't work, just like there are shadows that disrupt Pattern, Chaos or Trumps. And yes I houserule Amber to be such a shadow.

[Trevelyan]

Invisibility spell - Detection spell - Teleportation spell - (optional : Nag Nuke spell) - Trump

All of which make for an interesting story if the PC puts the effort into pulling that off. But all it takes is something unexpected, like a significant NPC, a trap or an alarm of some sort to mix things up. If the target a prisoner? then perhaps he is being interrogated at the time. Is is a guest in the castle? then perhaps he is eating breakfast in the main hall, surrounded by witnesses when the PC arrives.

I think the most easy way to circumvent this is to have shadows where sorcery doesn't work, just like there are shadows that disrupt Pattern, Chaos or Trumps. And yes I houserule Amber to be such a shadow.

Personally, I detest all such shadows on general principle.

[RPGPundit]

Amber according to Erick strikes again. There is actually little to no evidence suggesting that Logrus users traverse shadow in a manner different from Pattern users, and indeed some limited evidence to suggest that they walk in just the same way.

Um, no, actually, if were to read the novels straight, it would seem to imply that Logrus Users CAN'T travel through shadow, except through black roads and shadow paths. They need those in order to go anywhere.

RPGPundit

[RPGPundit]

Having a campaign where there's a ton of shadows where Sorcery doesn't work is considerably less douchey than having a ton of shadows where pattern or logrus don't work.
Its implicit that Sorcery is supposed to be a mostly crappy power; the whole problem is in fact that game-wise, sorcery is too easy to abuse to make it into something that is far from a crap power.

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

Its implicit that Sorcery is supposed to be a mostly crappy power; the whole problem is in fact that game-wise, sorcery is too easy to abuse to make it into something that is far from a crap power.

RPGPundit

You see I find that is a problem. Yes the rules want sorcery to be a crappy power, but they fail to implement that becuase they try to emulate the books. In the books despite the fact that the Amberites don't seem to use it much Merlin shows its a genuine power. Merlin has all the powers in the book (literally) but it's sorcery he generally uses to resolve his conflicts. And the Spikards, possibly some of the most powerful items in the Amberverse basically use socery, yes there are multiple power lines and all that but the spikard just uses sorcery basically.
So I would say that the fact that sorcery is meant to be a crappy power is not represented in the novels and though the ADRPG would like it to be crappy (mainly by making it cheaper which is an odd way to make something less popular) it isn't crappy there either.

[Trevelyan]

Um, no, actually, if were to read the novels straight, it would seem to imply that Logrus Users CAN'T travel through shadow, except through black roads and shadow paths. They need those in order to go anywhere.

My sweaty left testicle it does.

For a start, Merlin doesn't differentiate between using Pattern and using Logrus to travel through shadow. The assumption is often made that he uses Pattern because the description of shadow travel matche that in the Corwin series where we know Pattern is involved, but that remains an assumption. Merlin does specifically comment on the fact that he uses Chaos magic rather than Pattern magic due to familiarity, might he not do the same with his shadow travel? Or indeed might it not matter if the power is the same either way? Certainly Amberites don't invoke the Pattern to move through shadow, why should Chaosites need to manifest the Logrus in some manner?

In the introduction to Trumps of Doom, IIRC, Merlin seems to think that walking the Logrus will enable him to head off into shadow and do his own thing, and Jurt specifically asks Merlin afterwards what it is like to have mastered the Logrus, to walk in Shadow and to work with a higher order of magic than the mundane. In each case, they don't seem to anticipate a need to go to the effort of using a black road.

Mandor isn't remotely worried about joining Merlin in shadow or in Amber itself and has no apparent doubts about his ability to get home. He could intend to use magic, or perhaps summon a black road from the middle of nowhere, but the evidence suggests that creating a black road is something of an effort, requiring some authority or power.

In the entire series we see three examples of a black road, the original example in the Corwin series, the road used by the kidnappers of Coral, and the airborne ribbon that Suhuy uses to send a demon to fetch Merlin and bring him back to Chaos at speed. In each of these cases, the road is a method used to transport underlings through shadow and not principle characters who might reasonably be Logrus masters. And Merlin himself is apparently sufficnetly ill versed in these things that he takes time to study the aerial road having not previously encountered such a thing, or apparently been aware of their existence - hardly likely for an application of the only method of shadow travel available to Chaosites.

And what about the Chaos beasts which we know canmove through shadow unaided (various demons manage this, although not all can apparently do so)? Are we to suppose that the Lords of Chaos, having mastered the greatest of their powers, lack a power which any number of lesser demons seem to share?