Something for LoO/LoGaS fans to peruse, and try if interested.

[The Wizard Is Undeterred!]

I'm re-posting something I put on my G+ pages regarding LoGaS. I think it would work for Lords of Olympus as well. Anyway:

As many of you know, I've kind of developed a fixation on Lords of Gossamer and Shadow, which uses the rules from Wujick's Amber Diceless RPG.  I can tell I'm getting fixated, because I'm starting to want to tinker with things.

The first thing I really want to bulldoze and expand on are the main 4 Attributes. Psyche seems overpowered, and Strength only seems like it was tossed in there because of Gerard in the original Amber novels. (Likewise, Warfare is there because of Benedict.) If we are not committed to duplicating Amber as a setting (and with Lords of Gossamer and Shadow, as well as Lords of Olympus), then these 4 attributes need to be rearranged and balanced somewhat.

I decided to go back to basics. Instead of 4 Attributes, we now have 4 Arenas (of Conflict). These 4 Arenas are: Physical, Mental, Metaphysical, and Social. Not only do they represent capability, they also represent training and skill in that particular Arena.

Physical covers strength, endurance, durability, recuperation, energy, dexterity, coordination, health, and so on. Like Endurance, it's a vital secondary stat for the others, and now it's also usable as a primary stat to be buttressed by the others. It also represents physical training, muscle memory, learned reflexes, and how much the character has put him/herself through physical stress. As well, it offers the insightful a clue as to how likely the PC/NPC is to rely on using the Physical Arena to resolve conflicts.

Mental covers memory, learning, imagination, extrapolation, using and analyzing sensory input, planning, knowledge, reasoning, judgment, resolve, focus, problem-solving, and so on. It also covers the likelihood that the character will know something about the subject at hand. It is not to be underestimated for use during combat; the mental is to the physical as 3 is to 1, after all. While most opponents twitch at the thought of facing a highly-Ranked Physical character in one-on-one combat, they usually prefer that to facing someone who has a high Rank in the Mental Arena, particularly if she/he has had time to plan.

Of course, if the Mental is to the Physical as 3 is to 1, then the Social is to the Mental is as X is to 1, where X is whatever number you feel comfortable slotting in. No one person is as strong as every person, and making enemies of a master of the Social Arena is inviting misery and setbacks from almost every corner. Social skills, empathy, sorting out lies from truth, psychology, sociology, persuasion, intimidation, rumor-mongering, manipulation, lies, and so on are child's play for a high Rank in the Social Arena, and such a character can influence wide swaths of people, even if they don't necessarily like the character. This isn't mind control, but at the highest levels, it can be frighteningly close.

Then there's the wild card, the Metaphysical Arena. This covers the magical/miraculous abilities of the citizens of Amber/Chaos/The Olympians/The Titans/The Lords and Ladies/The Dwimmerlaik/etc. While the other Arenas depend on conditions staying relatively normal, this Arena can change circumstances towards a more beneficial state for its wielder.  It's surprisingly powerful, but while it can compensate for deficiencies in the other Arenas, it can't quite replace them all. But properly used, it can change the course of supposedly unwinnable conflicts.  

(Of course, having a high Arena rating won't always save your character if you, the player, have your PC do something stupid, whether from simply not knowing the whole situation or just by not thinking things through. But if you make it clear to the GM what strategy you want to pursue, then your Arena ratings will allow you to go as far as you can. Just try to make sure you're going the right way beforehand. Sometimes the brightest people do the most boneheaded things.)

Next to each Arena, pick a one- or two-word phrase that covers an area within that particular Arena in which the character excels. For Gerard, his Physical Arena Highlight would be "Strength", for example. Then be sure, in your character description, to include clues that the insightful PCs/NPCs could use to determine what those Highlights are. This helps distinguish one character from another, and helps the players/GMs figure out what the character's best strategy would be in a given situation.  It is the GM's discretion as to how helpful it will be to play to a character's strengths, but it should be enough to tip the conflict (all else being equal). 

[Panjumanju]

Many people have tried changing the Statistics....the thing is, Amber (and by extension, Lords of Gossamer and Shadow) is comprised of rules that are ugly and awkward sounding but work, very, very well. (Unlike many roleplaying games that have very pretty rules that are entirely dysfunctional in actual play.) The four diceless statistics are ugly and work well.

I suggest being in a game and getting used to them before trying to change them. One thing that Erick Wujcik suggested, and I'm sure it would work well for LoGaS, is adding *more* Statistics as appropriate for your particular game, even positions, ranks, and story-appropriate advantages for the in-game world.

//Panjumanju

[jibbajibba]

I agree with the basic premise that the stats are inspired by Zelazny's characters and really they should be considered as a single iteration of how the stats can lead to certain characters.
Benedict is the greatest warrior and the greatest tactician, etc etc
So I am generally in agreement that you can tinker with the stats.

However I think Metaphysical is covered more in your Power selection than is a stat.

I do think Prowess, Lore, Guile work well for the Tristat ability model.

One of the interesting things in Amber is that you can reshape the game depending on what sort of PCs you have. So at the start of the game let the players pick the attributes they want for this iteration.

Maybe you get the usual 4 maybe they split comabt from tactics, maybe they roll strength and endurance into 'Physical' maybe they split Endurance into Willpower and Stamina maybe they create a new stat for magical aptitude, or whatever.

I have used the Amber engine for loads of games and we have used all sorts of stats.

I am still playing with  the idea of running Fables and i think the primary stats of Prowess, Lore, Guile & Will with secondaries of Political Influence and Legend seems like a likely mix.

Oh and Welcome to the board. The Amber bit is quite civilised compared to the rest.

[RTrimmer]

Arref Mak's 17 att system is worth looking at for Amber or (tweaked, obviously) for LoGaS:

http://www.skyseastone.net/itsog/shadows/005463.html
http://www.skyseastone.net/itsog/shadows/cat_17_canon_attrib.html

[RPGPundit]

Welcome to theRPGsite, Wizard! Thanks a lot for sharing that, and I hope you'll post more here, we always welcome more Diceless fans!