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One of my players recently came to me with a concern about  Sorcery (note: i'm using the alternate sorcery system mentioned above in the forum, but this could just as likely be applied to the traditional sorcery rules for Amber).  He pointed out that some players are using Sorcery as an answer for everything, and that there seems to be an escalation of the use of sorcery (never mind that this player was probably the FIRST player to start using sorcery for everything and escalating sorcery, and now its somewhat coming back to bite him in the ass).
A particular concern to him is another player, one that has it in for him, going around casting spells that transform a vast area (say a 500ft by 500ft by 500ft cube) into blazing lava, meaning that if you center it on a high-warfare guy, the high-warfare guy shouldn't be able to dodge it no matter how much better he is than magic-abusing guy.

Now, I gave a number of responses to the player who complained about this to me, but I'd like to hear how you would handle the thing if you were GMs.

RPGPundit

High warfare? Sniper gun. Or crossbow. You incant, you die.

Use pattern to "dodge". At the first sign of such a thing happening, shift shadow. Just a little. A very, very close shadow, reached in a few seconds... But one different from the one where a giant cube of magma just appeared.

Use Power Words to disrupt the spell. This is easy if you know your opponent's name.

Use sorcery to siphon magic, then warfare to kill.

a clever player of a sorcerer can beat a high warefare guy. the high warfare guy has to put himself in a position to be beaten mind.
One of my hangups with Amber is how to make the stupid player of the Warfare Master great at warfare and not dead. A good player will never expose himself to a hostile fully loaded sorcerer cos a clever sorcerer can usually pull somethign out of their arse.
Croaker's pattern, power words etc have a problem in that they are outside the character's warfare. Warfare alone ought to be enough to top a sorcerer. The missile weapon idea is good but throwing a dagger 500 yards or whatever might be an ask...
Personally, if i had a PC who was getting too showy with the magic and seems to overpowerign the other PCs I would set up stuff that played to their strengths. So they all get a chance to shine.
As an aside in game terms and Amber terms sorcery is far too cheap in the game. If you look at the sorcerers in Amber they have all had to work to study and to learn. Sorcerers are not rare in Amber because its ineffectual they are rare in Amber because its hard work. Think could you image a scene in Amber where a well prepared Merlin or Mandor incapacitates Benedict? I certainly can.
I use a partial power system. Getting the ability to use magic costs 10 points. That is entry level you get nothing for it. for the same 10 points you can have Pattern with the ability to do basic shadow walking. If you want sorcery on top of that its an extra 5 for base shadow sorcery etc etc ...
Point is that its not so much that Sorcery is too power its more that its too powerful for the price.

Quote from: jibbajibba;307338Croaker's pattern, power words etc have a problem in that they are outside the character's warfare. Warfare alone ought to be enough to top a sorcerer. The missile weapon idea is good but throwing a dagger 500 yards or whatever might be an ask...

I don't think any of your 'abilities' are "outside warfare" as they can be utilized within a strategy. I understand what you mean, but tactics are something I always give to that 1st place warfare.
Ofcourse, STUFF has a hand in it.

The hign warfare person has sorcery as stated ? So as Croaker said, power words at the right moment, (which a high warfare would, to me, realize the situation as it was occurring, if not fractions of a moment before), dispell magic, or a protective bubble vs. enegies, heat, fire, whatever. A spell to reverse the effects back to adversary, teleportation, and..... do you give your player time to decide what the character will do, or seconds? As a high warfare person, I'd tend to give some time to think about reaction.

Also... where is the caster? equal & opposite effects apply?
a huge rift spewing out lava over that area may produce an earthquake and damage that could even reach the caster if they are not far enough away.

Construct? Artifact?
The high warfare person may have something set to defend already, which I would suggest if they are getting lava fields erupting underneath them.

Quote from: jibbajibba;307338Croaker's pattern, power words etc have a problem in that they are outside the character's warfare.

Take benedict.
But him at a nuclear ground zero, without the ability to use pattern and all. Warfare or not, he's dead. Same for Gerard, Corwin, or Fiona.
This is not because Warfare is innefectual, but because you're crippling him: Warfare needs weapons, and you're taking the appropriate ones away.

When corwin uses pattern against benedict, don't you thing benny also uses pattern to protect himself from harm? If your warfare master never develloped the means to counter or escape sorcery (and Pattern is a basic one for amberites), and is too dumb to have and use the right tools, he's not worthy of his title.

Hi, I'm the concerned player.

Quote from: RPGPundit;307293He pointed out that some players are using Sorcery as an answer for everything, and that there seems to be an escalation of the use of sorcery (never mind that this player was probably the FIRST player to start using sorcery for everything and escalating sorcery, and now its somewhat coming back to bite him in the ass).

I take issue with this comment and the backhanded slap included in it, but first...

QuoteA particular concern to him is another player, one that has it in for him, going around casting spells that transform a vast area (say a 500ft by 500ft by 500ft cube) into blazing lava, meaning that if you center it on a high-warfare guy, the high-warfare guy shouldn't be able to dodge it no matter how much better he is than magic-abusing guy.

This.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and here's what disturbs me:

The book has the Pressurized Lava spell. It's a short-range weapon that trades power for distance (page 63: "The range is limited by the size, so the biggest chunks travel only a few feet, where a tiny blob can arc out over a couple of hundred feet"), and depends on the caster's Warfare to hit ("Hitting, as with all projectiles, depends on the Warfare of the caster").

So what happened in the campaign?

The top-ranked Warfare character (Morgan) uses Pressurized Lava in a duel with another character (Dietmar). It hurts the target a lot, but doesn't stop him from carrying on the fight (which he did, until multiple-and-incorrectly-named Deadly damage sword hits forced him to flee).

The next time a lava spell pops up in the campaign, it's because a third character (Maximo) creates (from a safe distance!) a giant lava square in a battlefield--the caster doesn't even have to aim with Warfare.

In that particular encounter, Morgan minimized damage to his feet by jumping on a (burning) horse and then as high as he could into the air, where he cast a Dispel Magic spell before landing back on the lava.

After that encounter, Maximo retools the spell to create a cube. A 500 ft. x 500 ft. x 500 ft. cube of lava that effectively prevents any defensive action from within. Even if you escape by shifting shadow, you have crippling lava damage on 100% of your body (I also hope you didn't open your mouth while inside the lava cube). The lava caster only needs to shift shadow with Pattern to finish the job.

What would be the next logical step in this arms race? A shadow-wide lava spell that instantly roasts everyone but the spellcaster in that shadow? In that case, who needs Shadow Storms or WMDs when you have Sorcery?

Seriously, is that the way you want an Amber campaign to go?

I go back to the first quoted text now, where you cheerfully labeled me as the guy who started it all. Let me see the "new" spells I've used:

Illusion: A variant of the Invisibility spell, only that it doesn't alter the light around you but on a fixed point in space. For obvious reasons, you can only trick NPCs or GM-controlled PCs with it most times.

Healing Touch: A spell that was designed to emulate a Paladin's Lay on Hands. The biggest in-game use it had was waking up Flora when Morgan rescued her and Starton.

Flight: Utility spell that makes the battlefield 3d rather than 2d, but cannot win a battle by itself. It's a tool, not a weapon.

Zero-G: Ah, now we are talking, right? Wrong. Gravity stops working in a small area, which might surprise an opponent for a moment. The caster might get a couple of free actions, at least until the opponent figures out how to get rid of it.

Those four spells are what you are comparing the Lava Cube of Doom against.

More later. Maybe.

Quote from: Croaker;307455Take benedict.
But him at a nuclear ground zero, without the ability to use pattern and all. Warfare or not, he's dead. Same for Gerard, Corwin, or Fiona.
This is not because Warfare is innefectual, but because you're crippling him: Warfare needs weapons, and you're taking the appropriate ones away.

When corwin uses pattern against benedict, don't you thing benny also uses pattern to protect himself from harm? If your warfare master never develloped the means to counter or escape sorcery (and Pattern is a basic one for amberites), and is too dumb to have and use the right tools, he's not worthy of his title.

I know what you are saying. I was imagining a scenario where you have a dumb player but the character has great warefare. Imagine a 150 point game one of the Players sticks 140 on warfare. No powers just a huge combat monster. Another player takes sorcery and some other stuff. How do we compensate for the stupid player whose character really should be unbeatable in a fight from getting taken out with a fireball on turn 1 when he isn't looking?
In the books we already know that Benedict can be trapped. Brand did it (this was the first series Benedict who is a lot less Superman than the second series - that fight with the Borrel Logrus ghost really bugs me) with superior pysche.

Quote from: JongWK;307474Hi, I'm the concerned player.


 
I take issue with this comment and the backhanded slap included in it, but first...




This.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and here's what disturbs me:

The book has the Pressurized Lava spell. It's a short-range weapon that trades power for distance (page 63: "The range is limited by the size, so the biggest chunks travel only a few feet, where a tiny blob can arc out over a couple of hundred feet"), and depends on the caster's Warfare to hit ("Hitting, as with all projectiles, depends on the Warfare of the caster").

So what happened in the campaign?

The top-ranked Warfare character (Morgan) uses Pressurized Lava in a duel with another character (Dietmar). It hurts the target a lot, but doesn't stop him from carrying on the fight (which he did, until multiple-and-incorrectly-named Deadly damage sword hits forced him to flee).

The next time a lava spell pops up in the campaign, it's because a third character (Maximo) creates (from a safe distance!) a giant lava square in a battlefield--the caster doesn't even have to aim with Warfare.

In that particular encounter, Morgan minimized damage to his feet by jumping on a (burning) horse and then as high as he could into the air, where he cast a Dispel Magic spell before landing back on the lava.

After that encounter, Maximo retools the spell to create a cube. A 500 ft. x 500 ft. x 500 ft. cube of lava that effectively prevents any defensive action from within. Even if you escape by shifting shadow, you have crippling lava damage on 100% of your body (I also hope you didn't open your mouth while inside the lava cube). The lava caster only needs to shift shadow with Pattern to finish the job.

What would be the next logical step in this arms race? A shadow-wide lava spell that instantly roasts everyone but the spellcaster in that shadow? In that case, who needs Shadow Storms or WMDs when you have Sorcery?

Seriously, is that the way you want an Amber campaign to go?

I go back to the first quoted text now, where you cheerfully labeled me as the guy who started it all. Let me see the "new" spells I've used:

Illusion: A variant of the Invisibility spell, only that it doesn't alter the light around you but on a fixed point in space. For obvious reasons, you can only trick NPCs or GM-controlled PCs with it most times.

Healing Touch: A spell that was designed to emulate a Paladin's Lay on Hands. The biggest in-game use it had was waking up Flora when Morgan rescued her and Starton.

Flight: Utility spell that makes the battlefield 3d rather than 2d, but cannot win a battle by itself. It's a tool, not a weapon.

Zero-G: Ah, now we are talking, right? Wrong. Gravity stops working in a small area, which might surprise an opponent for a moment. The caster might get a couple of free actions, at least until the opponent figures out how to get rid of it.

Those four spells are what you are comparing the Lava Cube of Doom against.

More later. Maybe.

Interesting examples.
What are the triggers on the lava cube spell? Magic of shadow, area and centre point? Personnally I would add more lynchpins advising the user that there would be a risk of them Getting caught in the lava themselves unless they specified their own location for example.

And I think your spells look good.

Quote from: JongWK;307474It hurts the target a lot, but doesn't stop him from carrying on the fight (which he did, until multiple-and-incorrectly-named Deadly damage sword hits forced him to flee).

That's "deadly" to an average human . . . not a prince of Amber.

QuoteThe next time a lava spell pops up in the campaign, it's because a third character (Maximo) creates (from a safe distance!) a giant lava square in a battlefield--the caster doesn't even have to aim with Warfare.

The GM should have figured out a way in which Warfare would still enter into the battle.  The base requirement for the lava, lightning, and I think all direct damage spells is that a contest of Warfare must be employed.  Whether the thing used is a square, a cube, etc. and how Warfare enters the picture is the dressing.  This amounts to an end run around the rules, and that's where your problem stems from.  It would be like me saying, "Okay, I'm going to design a spell that lets me brainwash people but doesn't require Psychic superiority."  Right away the GM should step in and say "No.  You absolutely MUST have Psychic superiority.  All types of brainwashing require it."  Similarly the character MUST win at Warfare to hit.

QuoteAfter that encounter, Maximo retools the spell to create a cube. A 500 ft. x 500 ft. x 500 ft. cube of lava that effectively prevents any defensive action from within. Even if you escape by shifting shadow, you have crippling lava damage on 100% of your body (I also hope you didn't open your mouth while inside the lava cube). The lava caster only needs to shift shadow with Pattern to finish the job.

What would be the next logical step in this arms race? A shadow-wide lava spell that instantly roasts everyone but the spellcaster in that shadow? In that case, who needs Shadow Storms or WMDs when you have Sorcery?

The drain on the sorcerer should escalate geometrically and eventually be lethal.  The casting time should increase dramatically.  When you are wiping out worlds with little to no forewarning, that is a good time for the GM to step in and make ad hoc rules to prevent brokenness.  (I have no objection to Dworkin wiping out worlds, but he created the Pattern.  I don't think his "sorcery" is just the beginner level 15-point sorcery.)


If I were the GM I'd rule that yes, you can summon up 500'x500'x500' of lava - but you have to walk around the area in which it is summoned into and set up all the little portal openings in advance, from a relatively close range - and then trigger it right after, as the spell will decay.  Furthermore the thing should require a crazy amount of maintenance time to keep it fresh.  It still lets him do it, but it goes from "unbeatable combat spell" to "inefficient but impressive trap that an idiot (with bad Warfare) might blunder into."

QuoteLet me see the "new" spells I've used:

Illusion: A variant of the Invisibility spell, only that it doesn't alter the light around you but on a fixed point in space. For obvious reasons, you can only trick NPCs or GM-controlled PCs with it most times.

Healing Touch: A spell that was designed to emulate a Paladin's Lay on Hands. The biggest in-game use it had was waking up Flora when Morgan rescued her and Starton.

Supported in canon.  Merlin uses Logrus healing techniques at one point.

QuoteFlight: Utility spell that makes the battlefield 3d rather than 2d, but cannot win a battle by itself. It's a tool, not a weapon.

Well, this is basically an improvement on Levitation, which we know is possible even for a relatively weak sorcerer (Victor Melman levitated objects.)

QuoteZero-G: Ah, now we are talking, right? Wrong. Gravity stops working in a small area, which might surprise an opponent for a moment. The caster might get a couple of free actions, at least until the opponent figures out how to get rid of it.

Again, an improvement on levitation, though a wide-area one.  

I would not be dismissive of a few free actions given to a sorcerer, incidentally.

Quote from: moritheil;307488That's "deadly" to an average human . . . not a prince of Amber.

I know, I know. Just joking there...

QuoteI would not be dismissive of a few free actions given to a sorcerer, incidentally.

I agree, and took advantage of the surprise it created the first (and only) time I used it against a PC... The point is, the spell itself isn't a silver bullet that solves your problem. It just buys you time to do something else.

Just in case, let me be clear: I like the alternative Sorcery system. I think it's an improvement over the one in the book. I simply don't like how it's being abused and I believe there is room for improvement in this aspect.

Quote from: JongWK;307474Hi, I'm the concerned player.


 
I take issue with this comment and the backhanded slap included in it, but first...

I don't see it as a "slap". You were the first one to really start using sorcery (Lorelai had it before you, but she didn't really USE it in the sense of being clever with it). You were the first one who was clever with it, who figured out that you could use it to make yourself more dangerous.
The difference is that other players are now using it on a level of escalation beyond what you had originally been doing.

QuoteThis.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and here's what disturbs me:

The book has the Pressurized Lava spell. It's a short-range weapon that trades power for distance (page 63: "The range is limited by the size, so the biggest chunks travel only a few feet, where a tiny blob can arc out over a couple of hundred feet"), and depends on the caster's Warfare to hit ("Hitting, as with all projectiles, depends on the Warfare of the caster").

So what happened in the campaign?

The top-ranked Warfare character (Morgan) uses Pressurized Lava in a duel with another character (Dietmar). It hurts the target a lot, but doesn't stop him from carrying on the fight (which he did, until multiple-and-incorrectly-named Deadly damage sword hits forced him to flee).

The next time a lava spell pops up in the campaign, it's because a third character (Maximo) creates (from a safe distance!) a giant lava square in a battlefield--the caster doesn't even have to aim with Warfare.

In that particular encounter, Morgan minimized damage to his feet by jumping on a (burning) horse and then as high as he could into the air, where he cast a Dispel Magic spell before landing back on the lava.

After that encounter, Maximo retools the spell to create a cube. A 500 ft. x 500 ft. x 500 ft. cube of lava that effectively prevents any defensive action from within. Even if you escape by shifting shadow, you have crippling lava damage on 100% of your body (I also hope you didn't open your mouth while inside the lava cube). The lava caster only needs to shift shadow with Pattern to finish the job.

What would be the next logical step in this arms race? A shadow-wide lava spell that instantly roasts everyone but the spellcaster in that shadow? In that case, who needs Shadow Storms or WMDs when you have Sorcery?

Seriously, is that the way you want an Amber campaign to go?

I go back to the first quoted text now, where you cheerfully labeled me as the guy who started it all. Let me see the "new" spells I've used:

Illusion: A variant of the Invisibility spell, only that it doesn't alter the light around you but on a fixed point in space. For obvious reasons, you can only trick NPCs or GM-controlled PCs with it most times.

Healing Touch: A spell that was designed to emulate a Paladin's Lay on Hands. The biggest in-game use it had was waking up Flora when Morgan rescued her and Starton.

Flight: Utility spell that makes the battlefield 3d rather than 2d, but cannot win a battle by itself. It's a tool, not a weapon.

Zero-G: Ah, now we are talking, right? Wrong. Gravity stops working in a small area, which might surprise an opponent for a moment. The caster might get a couple of free actions, at least until the opponent figures out how to get rid of it.

Those four spells are what you are comparing the Lava Cube of Doom against.

More later. Maybe.

Ok, here's my thoughts on this since our last conversation:

1. Maximo has decided to try to do this with an "alter" spell, rather than "create", meaning that he's just changing a bunch of air in the space into Lava, right?
Ok, in sorcery as it exists right now, how powerful an effect you can create is limited by your Psyche. So you can, for example, do a "direction" rather than "target" Quell, and put the "direction" as an area of effect, but it will have the disadvantage (aside from the obvious that it will affect EVERYONE, friend or foe, in the area) that how many people you will be able to affect will depend on your psyche.
So, having gone "stupid" with his ranges, Maximo is bound to run into this problem shortly, he will find that, when he tries something on a vast scale like this, either he will outright fail (if he tries something ridiculously big), or the alteration (because he is doing that, TRANSFORMING something into something else) will happen so slowly that someone with superior warfare to his psyche will easily be able to have time to escape the danger. This is essentially what Morgan already did the last time they faced off, his warfare was good enough, and the transformation not instantaneous enough, that Morgan was able to escape serious damage (and a cube will be much harder to do/slower to manifest than a square).

Second, I think there's a little problem with making a "cube" that Maximo hasn't taken into account... its not like we're talking about a gelatinous cube or something like that. He may transform a cube-sized area, but then he's going to be facing a metric fuckton of lava that will quickly start pouring down collapsing and flowing all over the place (possibly on him if he's too close when he casts it).  I get the feeling he hasn't thought this through, but the guy who's 1st ranked in warfare probably would. ;)

Maximo isn't even being smart with his sorcery, he's just being brutish. All this will do is piss people off (not players, I mean IN the game, it makes him look bad to other characters/NPCs); and he's running around acting like this is the solution to everything. But the first time he goes with this up against someone who's competent I think he's going to get his ass kicked, and be stunned that it failed him.

But beyond that, there's another issue at play here, which has to do with who YOUR character is. I'm not going to tell you how you should play Morgan, but I could tell you this, if I was the 1st ranked dude in warfare, I would take sorcery, sure, but mainly to figure out ways to DISABLE magic; in fact, I'd be disabling magic at every opportunity. The whole winning strategy for a guy like this isn't do make "flying" spells, its to disarm his opponents of their best weapon and then beat the shit out of them with his superior warfare.

But that's just me. I think that Sorcery can be enticing, because its got a lot of bells and whistles; for someone who's weak in other areas, it can lead them to get a false sense of security; and for someone who's strong in other areas, it might actually distract them into performing sub-optimally and making things harder for themselves then it really has to be, just because its fancy.

You're playing a game of chess here; Maximo has a Knight, and you've got a Knight and a Queen.  Don't be afraid to sacrifice your knight for his, leaving you with the Queen and him with fuck all.

RPGPundit

Quote from: moritheil;307488The GM should have figured out a way in which Warfare would still enter into the battle.  The base requirement for the lava, lightning, and I think all direct damage spells is that a contest of Warfare must be employed.  Whether the thing used is a square, a cube, etc. and how Warfare enters the picture is the dressing.  This amounts to an end run around the rules, and that's where your problem stems from.  It would be like me saying, "Okay, I'm going to design a spell that lets me brainwash people but doesn't require Psychic superiority."  Right away the GM should step in and say "No.  You absolutely MUST have Psychic superiority.  All types of brainwashing require it."  Similarly the character MUST win at Warfare to hit.

Well, he still must, its just like any other situation. The guy with warfare has to actually do something, obviously, he can't just stand there and say "my warfare will save me!" and then be surprised if he gets his ass kicked. But assuming the warfare guy is trying to react, and thinks of the right way to react to this (like Jong did in his own example), keeping in mind that different attacks require different reactions, it will turn into (in basic terms) a contest of the caster's psyche versus the defender's warfare.

QuoteThe drain on the sorcerer should escalate geometrically and eventually be lethal.  The casting time should increase dramatically.  

The casting time, in my magic system, depends on the complexity of the spell, and this spell is pretty crude, really. But yes, it is more tiring to make a bigger effect. The magic-abuser in question has a very high endurance, so he's got a lot of leeway, but if he was slugging these spells off en masse, it would tire him out.

RPGPundit

Trust me, Maximo's spell isn't a "magic bullet" either... if he keeps doing things the way he's doing, he's going to get his ass kicked, sooner or later... if not by you then by someone else.

In a fight between him and you, I would bet hard cash on you winning, as long as you weren't stupid (and he wasn't any smarter than he's been thus far). Think of it this way: every time you've faced him so far in absolutely anything, you've beaten him.

RPGPundit

Say... does this 'about to be melted to a crisp' character have a devotee? Someone that, within the game may cause them to be rescued from this 'almost inescapable' threat?

Quote from: RPGPundit;307523But beyond that, there's another issue at play here, which has to do with who YOUR character is. I'm not going to tell you how you should play Morgan, but I could tell you this, if I was the 1st ranked dude in warfare, I would take sorcery, sure, but mainly to figure out ways to DISABLE magic; in fact, I'd be disabling magic at every opportunity. The whole winning strategy for a guy like this isn't do make "flying" spells, its to disarm his opponents of their best weapon and then beat the shit out of them with his superior warfare.

It makes a lot of sense. If I was Bleys had a feud with Fiona (it could happen couldn't it?) that's the first tactic that would pop in my mind : neutralize her edge and play my ace, warfare in both Bleys' case and Morgan's. Now Fiona being a smart girl, Bleys would never assume she hasn't got any other trick hidden up her sleeves. And the chess comparison kicks in again. You got to anticipate the next two or three moves if you want to be prepared. Even if this Maximo guy has been behaving like a one trick pony so far... Another protective measure against the magic large zone attacks could be to carry a mac guffin he's really interested into. Maybe he might think about the benefits of surgical strikes...

No reason you can't ambush him, either. I haven't even read all of the books, but one possibility would be getting an 'ally' of some sort to Trump the guy, then ambush him while he's distracted.

Would take some set-up, but in close quarters, I imagine Warfare is going to beat sorcery.

Quote from: JongWK;307474Even if you escape by shifting shadow, you have crippling lava damage on 100% of your body (I also hope you didn't open your mouth while inside the lava cube). The lava caster only needs to shift shadow with Pattern to finish the job.

Casting a spell is not instantaneous.

If you shift shadows, even just a little, before the casting is completed, you've effectively "dodged" the spell.
There's even a (non-official) power word out there that does this for you.

Also, I don't know about pundit's game, but, in my games, the more powerfull a spell is in its different parameters, the more psyche and time it requires, first for complexity. Then, you gotta have the magical energy to create it, which runs out of your endurance, further limiting you. You can bypass this by using power sources, but if you try to use more energy than you can control at a time, you get fried.
Still in my game? A cross-shadow spell would be possible, but, aside from requiring Pattern Sorcery, would be too difficult and costing to cast. I think pundit will work along similar ways.

Also, there's the question of this cube: Admitting it is at all possible, how far is the caster to not get burned himself???

Anyway, you have sorcery? As I said before, just use the basic magic drain spell from the rulebook. It should be faster to cast than his lava spell, and render it completely useless. And then, it's warfare time!

Quote from: RPGPundit;307523You're playing a game of chess here; Maximo has a Knight, and you've got a Knight and a Queen.  Don't be afraid to sacrifice your knight for his, leaving you with the Queen and him with fuck all.

RPGPundit

There is also the issue than, al least in my view, the sorcery system in this campaign work in such way that it gets stronger the more you know of your enemy.

In the battle between Morgan and Maximo, the latter knew who he was fighting and planned accordingly, having just tested the system last season that is an advantage somtimes overlooked.

The way i see it, sorcery is an exelent tool that gets better the more you know about what you are facing and the more time you have, generic spells are good but specific spells can be devastating.
That said it's still just a tool, like a sword or a trump, it can be more or less powerful itself, but what matters is how you use it.

And in a fight bewen Morgan and Maximo i could bet on Morgan everytime, Maximo is the kind of guy that thinks that a hammer is the best tool for everyting (even cleaning windows)

This Morgan Massimo thing doesn't appear very Ambery to me.... I will assume they are basically cousins and for some reason want to kill each other.
Why would either of them want to get involved in a face to face ... that is so gauche. If Maximo the sorcerer wants to kill Morgan why would he want to get close enough to hit him with a spell why not ensorcel Morgans trusted ally to slit hsi throat while he sleeps. Why not do any one of 101 things to eliminate Morgan whilst he has no idea it is you. I played an evil sorcerous bastard for ages I would never openly attack any one. A subtle clue there to lead them into an inescapable trap whilst befriending them with gifts of magical armour and enchanted weapons, under my control of course. Just learn high compelling and add it to an artifact with confer power and ... i mean ... casting spells ... directly at people ... what is this 1982?

Quote from: RPGPundit;307293Now, I gave a number of responses to the player who complained about this to me, but I'd like to hear how you would handle the thing if you were GMs.

RPGPundit

Well, personally, I think the 'not being able to dodge' thing misses how wonderfully well Warfare is as the Most Important Stat.  The concept that someone with high-rank Warfare is limited by little things like space and time or practical physics isn't the issue - They probably started dodging well before the person with Sorcery conceived the notion to begin to get around to unleashing said huge volume of lava with magic.

What, are we in ROUNDS or something?  Sheesh.

(grins and chortles)

ziiing!
yes, spot on!
retroactive decisions are awesome.

talking to a player before hand and letting them have a teacher or mentor or something in gameplay, that shows defenses for the crazy type of attacks they may come under, will also give the defending player some 'warfare' bonus once battle comes around.
Every master warfare person needs an information network.

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;307551Say... does this 'about to be melted to a crisp' character have a devotee? Someone that, within the game may cause them to be rescued from this 'almost inescapable' threat?

I can't say, because its an ongoing campaign.

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Quote from: jibbajibba;309047This Morgan Massimo thing doesn't appear very Ambery to me.... I will assume they are basically cousins and for some reason want to kill each other.
Why would either of them want to get involved in a face to face ... that is so gauche. If Maximo the sorcerer wants to kill Morgan why would he want to get close enough to hit him with a spell why not ensorcel Morgans trusted ally to slit hsi throat while he sleeps. Why not do any one of 101 things to eliminate Morgan whilst he has no idea it is you. I played an evil sorcerous bastard for ages I would never openly attack any one. A subtle clue there to lead them into an inescapable trap whilst befriending them with gifts of magical armour and enchanted weapons, under my control of course. Just learn high compelling and add it to an artifact with confer power and ... i mean ... casting spells ... directly at people ... what is this 1982?

Well, I think there are two issues:

1. I don't think Maximo really wants Morgan dead yet. Morgan has kicked Maximo's ass two (or is it three?) times thus far, and has spared him every time when he could have killed him, so Morgan doesn't want Maximo dead either. They just have a growing enmity at this point.

2. Maximo is, to be generous, not that bright. He uses any power he has as a blunt weapon, subtlety is not in his nature. At least not for this sort of thing.  

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Just to be clear, Maximo himself isn't my main worry. It's the possibility of an out-of-control Sorcery system.

I do think it is stated, in the ADRPG book, that Pattern and Logrus always trump (no pun intended) Sorcery... personally, in the campaign we're talking about I've managed to make this work, but only on counted occasions. I think that should be more clear, but of course, maybe it is a question of the characters not knowing the full extent of their powers yet or what have you. If this were easier to accomplish, I think it would render Sorcery fairly useless against a character with real power, at least in a direct "fireball" or "hold person" scenario... thus making it only a very useful tool, which is what it was, in my opinion, intended to be.

I think you got it, Sun Boy, it depends on knowing how to use these powers against sorcery. Sorcery's advantage is that it can be either sneaky or more directly offensive. But if you know how to use either power to counter the power of sorcery, pattern and logrus will win, always.

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What can I say? I'm smart like that :p

Quote from: SunBoy;309825What can I say? I'm smart like that :p

Heh, and flaming, apparently!  Cute icon.  Fwoomph!

Thanks. I'm always drawing that sort of OotS doodles. They're really cool.

My feeling is that if one player managed to set up a circumstance where he's ambushing a target without any ranged weapon from 500 yards away, he has thoroughly outmanuevered the other player and *ought* to win.

Quote from: hgjs;310120My feeling is that if one player managed to set up a circumstance where he's ambushing a target without any ranged weapon from 500 yards away, he has thoroughly outmanuevered the other player and *ought* to win.

Is that so? Even if the player who set up an ambush sucks at ambushes, and the player being ambushed is adept at sensing and avoiding ambushes according to character stats????

very narrow view my friend.

I love the cliks & cabals, the plots & plans of Amber, it is some of the true flavor of the game.
But when a sense of 'player vs. GM' turns into 'player vs. player', I think the essence of the game is being lost.
Sure it has it's uses, like in Throne wars or to prove a point, or if the characters are actually enemies, sure.
Thoroughly out-maneuvered?
As a GM it is 'behinds the scenes knowledge'.
As a player it is 'an assumption'.
Which one are you in this game scenario hgjs?

Yeah. Remember that, in Amber, any character can reach any place in a matter of seconds, so "being 500 yards away with a rifle" hardly counts as a smart maneuver. Furthermore, amberites can supposedly "sense" or somehow "feel" other real beings while in the same shadow... it's not a very often applied rule, but it's there. So I don't really think it counts as outsmarting someone.

I think what this conversation illustrates is that ADRPG is not a completely fair, watertight system because it is based on series of novels that Zelazny wrote without ever worrying about making a world that is entirely jackass-proof. NPiA is probably about as close as we come in the books to a pure throne war scenario but even there people do not behave as though the only criterion for success in life is gaining the throne and killing everyone else off. Eric is persuaded to merely blind Corwin rather than killing him because of all sorts of other concerns: fear of his blood curse, very possibly fear of Oberon's reaction should he return, etc. Likewise, in the RPG there's really no good reason why someone should not be able to lure all the other PCs into a field, nuke it from space, and then go off and hide in a bunker for the rest of time. The check on this behavior should be pressure from King Random, the PCs' own parents as well as those of the victim(s), and so on. But this only works if the offending player is actually interested in playing a character who wants more out of life than killing everyone else just for the hell of it. As I say, if you have a player whose only desire is to kill everyone else and who obdurately refuses to acknowledge any kind of in-game social pressure then it seems there isn't much else to do other than try to find a better class of player.  It's somewhat akin to playing ping pong with someone who wants get a good volley going versus someone who smashes the ball across the table every chance they get. I suppose that's technically "winning" in some narrow sense but it just doesn't seem that fun to me. Now, I realize that this little rant works quite a bit less well in the context of a throne war, which is supposed to be much more cutthroat, but even then it seems like a little nuance is desirable if the goal is to ultimately to have a good time…

Quote from: SunBoy;310172Yeah. Remember that, in Amber, any character can reach any place in a matter of seconds, so "being 500 yards away with a rifle" hardly counts as a smart maneuver. Furthermore, amberites can supposedly "sense" or somehow "feel" other real beings while in the same shadow... it's not a very often applied rule, but it's there. So I don't really think it counts as outsmarting someone.

Yes, it is very difficult to effectively ambush a high-Warfare Amberite.

That's why, if somene pulls it off, it means that they've managed to thoroughly outmaneuver the other player.

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;310165Is that so? Even if the player who set up an ambush sucks at ambushes, and the player being ambushed is adept at sensing and avoiding ambushes according to character stats????

If the player whose character is trying to set up the ambush sucks at it, his character probably wouldn't have succeeded.

QuoteBut when a sense of 'player vs. GM' turns into 'player vs. player', I think the essence of the game is being lost.

I disagree with this entirely for a game like Amber.  It's not a traditional party structure game; it's members of a royal family struggling against each other for position.

Quote from: hgjs;310192Yes, it is very difficult to effectively ambush a high-Warfare Amberite.

That's why, if somene pulls it off, it means that they've managed to thoroughly outmaneuver the other player.

hmmm.... once again, the GM knows of things going on you as a player most likely don't.

Quote from: hgjs;310192If the player whose character is trying to set up the ambush sucks at it, his character probably wouldn't have succeeded.

depends on how good the character is at it too. A char. with a low warfare can come up with a great ambush from the 'player's' idea, but if his 'stuff' gets in the way, or the other player's char. stuff helps him, or has better warfare, it is not clear-cut. You can think this all you want, but to me, these are the attitudes that create players who constantly bicker with their GM.
If you have no trust in the story or GM, then you should find another way around it in game-play or find another game.
Not trying to be harsh, but you sound like gamers I refuse to game with.

Quote from: hgjs;310192I disagree with this entirely for a game like Amber.  It's not a traditional party structure game; it's members of a royal family struggling against each other for position.

figures.
not always. there is a Machiavellian way of doing it. Same way James Bond's enemies do. They may also struggle against each other for recognition, favor, and title, among other things. Your view seems consigned to murder as an only attempt... if you are the 'nuke'em type'. Are you the player in question who failed at the long-range ambush? And may I ask, how long have you been playing Amber?

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;310238hmmm.... once again, the GM knows of things going on you as a player most likely don't.

While that's true, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Quotedepends on how good the character is at it too. A char. with a low warfare can come up with a great ambush from the 'player's' idea, but if his 'stuff' gets in the way, or the other player's char. stuff helps him, or has better warfare, it is not clear-cut.

I agree.  I phrased it poorly, but what I meant was, if the character has low Warfare then the GM will take it into account during the attempt and perhaps the ambush will fail: the target will detect the character due to something he didn't quite manage to hide, or there will be a way out that the would-be ambusher overlooked, or any number of things.

QuoteYou can think this all you want, but to me, these are the attitudes that create players who constantly bicker with their GM.
If you have no trust in the story or GM, then you should find another way around it in game-play or find another game.

I'm not sure what attitudes you're talking about.  Your comment about not trusting the GM is a bizarre non sequitur.

QuoteYour view seems consigned to murder as an only attempt...

I'm not sure why you got that impression, since I didn't say that anywhere.  I said I see the game as fundamentally competitive.

Quote from: SunBoy;310172Yeah. Remember that, in Amber, any character can reach any place in a matter of seconds, so "being 500 yards away with a rifle" hardly counts as a smart maneuver. Furthermore, amberites can supposedly "sense" or somehow "feel" other real beings while in the same shadow... it's not a very often applied rule, but it's there. So I don't really think it counts as outsmarting someone.

o_O Didn't recall this, save with pattern lenses, things like that. Where is it?

Quote from: Croaker;310264o_O Didn't recall this, save with pattern lenses, things like that. Where is it?

Just re-read it, and it wasn't just like I recalled. It's in the Advanced Pattern section, Pattern Recognition. It says that "Pattern blood will be noticeable by touch" and that "other Advanced Pattern masters will be obvious (...) sometimes even upon entering a common shadow".

@ hgjs, OK, point taken. If the guy actually managed to accomplish it, yes, he would have outmaneuvered the other, and should be able to take him by surprise. I just don't think that even then, a direct attack as in the case of the OP would be that effective, because then the other factors (warfare, pattern, etc.), would be into play yet again.

@ Gabriel: Far from me to start another fight with you, but I don't really see here where hgjs implied those kind of things. You are right, but I don't see how distrust in the GM is an issue here. He was proposing an scenario where the character had already succeeded at the ambush (as I found out just now).

Hmmm.. OK

The trap in question does seem like a min-max type of attack, I mean, the nuke from space was even compared, so I do feel there is a similar feel, that there is over-kill in an attempt to 'kill' another PC.
In the account to wit originally in this thread, it was a question of the GM's decision upon the ambush to me. I mean, if one's attack seems fool-proof, and doesn't work, I wouldn't whine. I've been there, I've had silly things like 'player-knowledge' and other players shouting out advice while their char. is not present to confound my actions in play when the char. knew nothing of events.
But kay-sera-sera.
I just felt there was a certain amount of feet stomping or tantram to 'my idea didn't work!' in the game in question. )(But lemme get otta this post, I'm in enough others, LOL)
just my 2 cents.

Quote from: SunBoy;310274Just re-read it, and it wasn't just like I recalled. It's in the Advanced Pattern section, Pattern Recognition. It says that "Pattern blood will be noticeable by touch" and that "other Advanced Pattern masters will be obvious (...) sometimes even upon entering a common shadow".

Aaaah! Yes, sure!

Thanks!

Anyway... Things are difficult, because, the player being usually dumber than the character (No offense intended), he may find himself in a position his character would have avoided.
Say, if Mr Dumbass plays the top-ranked warfare master, while his pal Mr Fantastic has just Chaos warfare but is a lot clever... Things will be difficult for the 1st player, just because of the players. Aside from the GM cheating or helping Mr Dumbass, he may very well find himself in bad situations the charactr he'd have liked to portrait would have easily avoided.

And this is one of the strengths of the ADRPG, in my opinion. It may sound weird, but I just like that. I'd much rather have my character killed by my own actions than by a fudged dice roll.

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;310238And may I ask, how long have you been playing Amber?

I've been playing Amber since BEFORE the RPG was first published, and I can say, without a doubt, that Amber very much should be about character vs. character (maybe not player vs. player, except in the "friendly" sense that, say, chess or RISK would be "player vs. player").

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I don't think redesigning the shape of the spell's affected zone (ie : what is turned to lava) should increase the speed of the transformation, so making it such a cube would mean the spell would be 500 times slower. Not a winning proposition. I'll add that "air" isn't exactly as easy to transform in lava than "earth", you can do whatever you want with shadow stuff, but there's not much to work with. Especially in shadows where there is no "air element" and the space above the ground is devoid of anything to work with (either the air is still or wind and breath and so on are separate aspects altogether).
That's a big point in my games, you can't just use a spell anywhere and expect it to work.

I'll add that Pattern Defense can suffuse the surrounding shadow stuff with the power of the Pattern, and make it resistent to tampering, which would block any attempt at casting this variant of the spell (lava burst could work since it opens a passage to get lava to come, instead of manipulating the present shadow stuff, and Pattern Defense don't stop movement).

Quote from: Sojiro;310723I don't think redesigning the shape of the spell's affected zone (ie : what is turned to lava) should increase the speed of the transformation, so making it such a cube would mean the spell would be 500 times slower. Not a winning proposition. I'll add that "air" isn't exactly as easy to transform in lava than "earth", you can do whatever you want with shadow stuff, but there's not much to work with. Especially in shadows where there is no "air element" and the space above the ground is devoid of anything to work with (either the air is still or wind and breath and so on are separate aspects altogether).
That's a big point in my games, you can't just use a spell anywhere and expect it to work.

I'll add that Pattern Defense can suffuse the surrounding shadow stuff with the power of the Pattern, and make it resistent to tampering, which would block any attempt at casting this variant of the spell (lava burst could work since it opens a passage to get lava to come, instead of manipulating the present shadow stuff, and Pattern Defense don't stop movement).

there might be an issue with protecting the shadow around you from tampering with pattern. This woudl protect that area but if the plan is to alter the shadow stuff 50 feet up so it drops on you and similarly the speed of transformation woudl effectly create a flow (the first created stuff starts to fall etc...)
The matter stuff is more interesting. You might well argue that mass is the key. This is the case with shapeshifting remember where to add mass you need to absorb shadow matter. Air is of far lower mass than lava so the net reslt woudl be somethign like 125M cubic meters (500x500x500) of air becomes 10 cubic meters of lava (hell of a vaccum though)
However you could easily turn 125M cubic meters of air to 125M cubic meters of Carbon monoxide, Hydrogren sulphide or heat it to 1000 degrees or whatever so I think we need to come up from the specfics and deal with the theory.

The base point is how tough should sorcery be.

Should a well prepared sorcerer be able to cast a spell that kills a high warfare character? The how is less important but we assume using an environmental effect that does not directly attack the opponent but effects the surroundings.
What limits should there be on such actions?

Can I prepare a spell that has a lethal in an area effect. The area is set, the range is set, the effect is set the only lynchpin will be magic of shadow to make it work in a particular shadow.

I'm not really sure why folks are so keen to get lost in detail like that.  Doesn't it end up hiding the important things in the game, given the particular setting?

'Should a well prepared sorcerer be able to cast a spell that kills a high warfare character?'

To me, that's a question that's not so much about how prepared the sorceror is.  Think of it as akin to saying whether or not someone with a big arsenal, a gatling gun or a decent sized battalion of trained fighters would.  It's not about the spell, the gun, or the crew, it is about how many mistakes or poor choices the high Warfare player makes dealing with you, and how few mistakes and how many wonderful choices you make in return.

Corwin didn't defeat Benedict with the crawly-grass because it was a wonderful advantage, it was because his very-decent-Warfare let him craft possibilities for Benedict to make key mistakes, and he took advantage of one... to flee.

To me, any PC that's focusing on the bigger gun or nastier spell as a way to win is just the sort of person a high-Warcraft person is best at defeating - they put all their focus on the tool, not the hand wielding it or the mind behind the hand.

Quote from: Tamelorn;310975I'm not really sure why folks are so keen to get lost in detail like that.  Doesn't it end up hiding the important things in the game, given the particular setting?

'Should a well prepared sorcerer be able to cast a spell that kills a high warfare character?'

To me, that's a question that's not so much about how prepared the sorceror is.  Think of it as akin to saying whether or not someone with a big arsenal, a gatling gun or a decent sized battalion of trained fighters would.  It's not about the spell, the gun, or the crew, it is about how many mistakes or poor choices the high Warfare player makes dealing with you, and how few mistakes and how many wonderful choices you make in return.

Corwin didn't defeat Benedict with the crawly-grass because it was a wonderful advantage, it was because his very-decent-Warfare let him craft possibilities for Benedict to make key mistakes, and he took advantage of one... to flee.

To me, any PC that's focusing on the bigger gun or nastier spell as a way to win is just the sort of person a high-Warcraft person is best at defeating - they put all their focus on the tool, not the hand wielding it or the mind behind the hand.

I think we are in agreement, moreorless, but the point here is if the high warfare guy makes no mistakes he is litterally having a coffee on his verandah should some one be able to use a spell to vaporise him. There are parallels for sure a well placed bomb, infecting a shadow with a hyper virulent plague designed especially to home in on amber DNA, etc etc.

It all depends on his degree of paranoia.

Compare this to the warfare abilities in the Amber book: As it says, not every character will want to devellop these and spend thier entires lives as if they could be attacked at any moment.

So, a high-warfare, no paranoia guy could die.

A high-warfare, more paranoid guy will make sure his position is unknown, or he's in a shadow that bloks magic, and there'll be safeguards, too.

Quote from: Croaker;311063It all depends on his degree of paranoia.

Compare this to the warfare abilities in the Amber book: As it says, not every character will want to devellop these and spend thier entires lives as if they could be attacked at any moment.

So, a high-warfare, no paranoia guy could die.

A high-warfare, more paranoid guy will make sure his position is unknown, or he's in a shadow that bloks magic, and there'll be safeguards, too.

But surely what you are saying really isn't that the best warfare guy is hard to kill but the highest ranked paranoid guy is hard to kill:)

but even this is off topic. we come back to how tough should sorcery be?

Quote from: jibbajibba;311010I think we are in agreement, moreorless, but the point here is if the high warfare guy makes no mistakes he is litterally having a coffee on his verandah should some one be able to use a spell to vaporise him. There are parallels for sure a well placed bomb, infecting a shadow with a hyper virulent plague designed especially to home in on amber DNA, etc etc.

Oh, that's an easy one for me in my campaigns.  Absolutely not.  The high Warfare PC gets plenty of warning, and 'relaxing on the veranda' is never a period of dangerous lapses in attention for them.

Stuff like that are at most significant annoyances for them, certainly disruptive of relaxing and enjoying the morning.

All that changes, of course, when you're talking about opponents that are close to their level in the arts of war.

I really have to go back to my tool analogy.  Sorcery's just a tool, and not a uniquely powerful one, at that.  It pales in comparison to real power.

Quote from: Tamelorn;311111Oh, that's an easy one for me in my campaigns.  Absolutely not.  The high Warfare PC gets plenty of warning, and 'relaxing on the veranda' is never a period of dangerous lapses in attention for them.

Stuff like that are at most significant annoyances for them, certainly disruptive of relaxing and enjoying the morning.

All that changes, of course, when you're talking about opponents that are close to their level in the arts of war.

I really have to go back to my tool analogy.  Sorcery's just a tool, and not a uniquely powerful one, at that.  It pales in comparison to real power.

That is the line that is taken by Erick throughout the rule book. But if you look to the actual books I am not so sure.
I would argue in fact that Sorcery is really an enabler for the application of other powers. The effects of Pattern for example whilst being powerful at a high create the universe level on teh ground are pretty poor. Pattern takes time to use its slow and the changes it invokes at least at 'Standard' levels are relatively minor. Sorcery provides you with a whole arsenal of weapons which can have huge effects.
Merlin really is our only true test subject here. He has access to the whole gamut of powers. What does he use most to resolve combat situations , sorcery. Yes he has to be prepped but sorcery is his go to power. Is that becuase sorcery pales in comparison to pattern and logrus. I think not. Yes a logrus trendril or a pattern ward can block a spell but so can a spell based ward. Int eh books Merlin even uses Sorcery to teleport through shadow. Even front eh first books its sorcery that binds Brand in shadow. This being the brand that has a range of uber pattern and trump powers.
I think it presents some interesting conumdrums from a game perspective.
I can see why Erick wanted to down play sorcery> you don't want all the players to be merlin clones, if you did you could play ars magica or mage.
I would be really interested if anyone had done an analysis of the spells merlin uses in the 2nd series just to see

I'm goin' back to re-read the Merlin saga now.
only read it 1/2 as many times as the Corwin.
But I agree that sorcery, used properly can be highly effective in game-play.

Yes, this is all the difference between handguns and nuclear weapons.

Sure, nuclear weapons are an awful lot more powerfull. But you'll probably use more guns than nuclear bombs.

Now, mastery in a power gives you both more raw power and more finesse with it.

Sorcery is a hell of a lot sneakier than the "major powers."  In the intrigues of both Amber and Chaos, subtlety is very important.  Yes, maybe you can block just about anything with the Logrus - but what if you don't see it coming?  

I mean, you could say "a knife is vastly inferior to Greyswandir" but Caine almost kills Corwin with what is probably a very ordinary knife.  Sometimes it's not the degree of power; it's the application.  Amberites and Chaosites love to be sneaky, and as such, sorcery is useful to them.

@moritheil: I don't entirely agree with you there. I do agree that sorcery is a good tool for subtlety, but I don't believe that sorcery persay is inherently sneaky.

Consider a blaster type sorcerer for example, quite a valid use of sorcery and not at all subtle.
On the other hand consider someone with pattern who is skilled at probabiliity manipulation - lots of possibilities for very subtle manipulations there. Likewise, consider shapeshifting, again minor changes in the qualities (abilities from creatures of power) have the potential to be very subtle. With trump, consider trump spying. And Logrus, discreetly using it to bring in poisonous vapors for example.

The possibilities are limited only by the imagination of the player. All powers are capable of subtlety. Sorcery might be well suited to it due to its flexibility, but again that doesn't make the tool itself subtle.

Quote from: moritheil;312288Sorcery is a hell of a lot sneakier than the "major powers."  In the intrigues of both Amber and Chaos, subtlety is very important.  Yes, maybe you can block just about anything with the Logrus - but what if you don't see it coming?  

I mean, you could say "a knife is vastly inferior to Greyswandir" but Caine almost kills Corwin with what is probably a very ordinary knife.  Sometimes it's not the degree of power; it's the application.  Amberites and Chaosites love to be sneaky, and as such, sorcery is useful to them.

Wouldn't say inherently sneakier - it's just not on many of the Elder Amberite's radar during the first set of books.  Like any other tool, the ones who know about it area always on the lookout, and it shows up wonderfully well when those with the real powers look for it.  The sneaky's just a temporary plot device for something added in the books later on.

I didn't read moritheil saying it was 'inherintly' sneaky. I think he is implying that it is a much more useful tool if used in secretive ways. Which I do agree with. Not to take away from the meteor strike masters out there, just that i too love the subtle uses of the maigck arts.

Subtlety is hte Amber watchword. The most agressive spells I ahve ever cast as an Amber player were teleport other, reverse gravity or strength. But this applies to all powers and even items. So for example I had a player with a sword that had inteligence, Amber ranked warfare and Mould Shadow. This meant that in combat the sword would manipulate the environment whilst I was fighting to give me an edge, a loose flagstone, a pot of boling water on the stove I could toss at my oppoent. Yes it cost 12 points but much cooler than destructive damage :-) and it gave me someone to talk to on lonely trips. Of course the nbenefit was obviously counteracted by the bad stuff i had to take to get it but :-)