TheRPGSite

I was browsing through my Chronicles of Amber and came across a few exerts that made me say WTF?
Even after reading many times, some of the phrases I see still hit me as if it's the first time... and others just make me wonder.

I wanted to put some of them forth here, and am hoping some discussion of some of these phrases may ensue.

NPIA

1) (chapter 6); Caine; "I'll be satisfied to serve the winner. That regency should be nice. I'd still like Random's head as part of the price, though"
Why do you suppose he hates Random so??? thoughts?

2) Corwin: "Of Shadow I have this to say;there is Shadow and there is Substance, and this is the root of all things. Of Substance, there is only Amber, the real city, upon the real Earth, which contains everything."
Which contains everything...

3) Corwin, before pulling out Bleys' Trump; "I dried my hands on my cloak as I spoke and wiped them carefully, as I'd hate to smudge a work of art."
wiping blood from the battle I believe... sounds as if this may affect trump somehow? or just poetic verbage?

4) As Corwin threw his trump to Bleys, as Bleys fell, who's Trump do you suppose he used?

5) Corwin, after escaping the dungeon: "Troubled by dreams of werewolves and Sabbats, I slept, and the full moon rose above the world."
Did Eric have anything to do with his nightmare, being he controls the weir?

6) Corwin; "I had set sail for a land near as sparkling as Amber itself, an almost immortal place, a place that did not really exist, not any longer.It was a place that vanishes into Chaos ages ago."
Did Chaos itself take over Avalon?????


Well, these things are just things that stuck out in my mind. What say you?

Well I will take a stab. No books to hand so this is all off hte top of my head.

1) (chapter 6); Caine; "I'll be satisfied to serve the winner. That regency should be nice. I'd still like Random's head as part of the price, though"
Why do you suppose he hates Random so??? thoughts?

Remember the referece to Random sticking a dagger in someone boot as a practical joke. I think Random was somethign of a wanker when he was younger so ...

2) Corwin: "Of Shadow I have this to say;there is Shadow and there is Substance, and this is the root of all things. Of Substance, there is only Amber, the real city, upon the real Earth, which contains everything."
Which contains everything...
of course at this point there was no Courts of Chaos but the idea is that anything that exists in shadow is just a reflection of something in Amber. However, that reflection might be so distorted as to be unrecognisable. INteresting is hte use of the phrase 'the real Earth' indicating that maybe at this point in Zelazny's thinking Amber was more than just a small fragment of reality bounded by shadow. Not sure if that is true towords the end of the second set of books.


3) Corwin, before pulling out Bleys' Trump; "I dried my hands on my cloak as I spoke and wiped them carefully, as I'd hate to smudge a work of art."
wiping blood from the battle I believe... sounds as if this may affect trump somehow? or just poetic verbage?
Poetic Verbage :-)

4) As Corwin threw his trump to Bleys, as Bleys fell, who's Trump do you suppose he used?
None Fiona was in trump contact with Bleys the whole while and pulled him out once he was in trouble. Corwin just threw away his own trumps and his chance to escape before he reached the top of the stair.

5) Corwin, after escaping the dungeon: "Troubled by dreams of werewolves and Sabbats, I slept, and the full moon rose above the world."
Did Eric have anything to do with his nightmare, being he controls the weir?
I think these nighmares merely reflected Corwin's arrival back in Amber after his amnesia. His first arrival back in Amber and the point at which he could have turned away fromt eh course of action that led to his demise. And of course Poetic Verbage again.

6) Corwin; "I had set sail for a land near as sparkling as Amber itself, an almost immortal place, a place that did not really exist, not any longer.It was a place that vanishes into Chaos ages ago."
Did Chaos itself take over Avalon?????
No, I think this is a reference to the idea that Amberites carve out niches of reality 'creating' worlds as they go. The idea being that without Corwin to hold it together Avalon just slips back into the general Mulch of Shadow Chaos.

interesting Jibbajibba;
the thought of Fiona pulling Bleys to safety is a good one.

I still think there is something to the werewolf dreams more than talk.
And I don't agree with Avalon 'fading away', I lean more to Chaos having something to do with it's demise. (I'll have to look it up more later)

On #1 & 2, I agree with you, Random was picked on by his siblings for being a wanker, (I just like to hear some ideas on why, or if anyone knows fer sure), and your description on #2 is along my thoughts, but I like your ending... I wonder if RZ did think the same at the end.

#3 I think is poetic verbage, but it does make one wonder.

Well, a bloodied trump, just as any work of art, is spoiled.

Game-wise, this might make contact more difficult, because you see only a bit of the picture.
Of course, you might also decide that Blood of Amber can unsettle Trump operation.

I'd tend towards 1) and 2) (if it was more than a few drops)

Quote from: jibbajibba;3015086) Corwin; "I had set sail for a land near as sparkling as Amber itself, an almost immortal place, a place that did not really exist, not any longer.It was a place that vanishes into Chaos ages ago."
Did Chaos itself take over Avalon?????
No, I think this is a reference to the idea that Amberites carve out niches of reality 'creating' worlds as they go. The idea being that without Corwin to hold it together Avalon just slips back into the general Mulch of Shadow Chaos.

Perhaps when Corwin lost his memories, the Shadows he had created purposely in the past disappeared as well?

I don't see it... otherwise, if an Amberite dies... their shadows fail?
I can see it having some effect on the shadow.. but to slip into Chaos?
That's a strong statement.
I feel it fell to Chaotic forces.

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;303073I don't see it... otherwise, if an Amberite dies... their shadows fail?
I can see it having some effect on the shadow.. but to slip into Chaos?
That's a strong statement.
I feel it fell to Chaotic forces.

Do you mean the armies of Chaos, or just Chaos in general?  I don't think there is any hint of Chaos as a military threat at this point, but I could be wrong.  On the other hand, I don't think we have any evidence of Shadows just disappearing on their own either.  Or perhaps without his continued presence there for an extended time, it just full back into being a mundane shadow.

Either a massive shadow storm or Chaosian-summoned primal chaos would be options as well.

In the game I'm running, Avalon (the original Avalon) was very deliberately destroyed... Three guesses who.

ooo, ummm....
lemme see.
Eric!
ummm.... Mandor!
or perhaps, Brand?
Well, this is how many good scenarios start... isn't it?

Me money's on Dara. Yup.

It's Oberon

It's always him

I'm going to go with Llewella, just because it's kind of out of left field and I like doing things that way. ^_^

or even a cabal, that's why he gave us 3 guesses.
Oberon?
Dara?
Mandor?


Scaaaaaaaaaary!

Go on, NM!!! We're curious!!!

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;3014061) (chapter 6); Caine; "I'll be satisfied to serve the winner. That regency should be nice. I'd still like Random's head as part of the price, though"
Why do you suppose he hates Random so??? thoughts?

Random seemed to piss off a lot of people. He was the baby of the family, with all the irresponsibility that went with that, and he had one HELL of a rebellious-little-shit stage.

Quote2) Corwin: "Of Shadow I have this to say;there is Shadow and there is Substance, and this is the root of all things. Of Substance, there is only Amber, the real city, upon the real Earth, which contains everything."
Which contains everything...

Hyperbole.

Quote3) Corwin, before pulling out Bleys' Trump; "I dried my hands on my cloak as I spoke and wiped them carefully, as I'd hate to smudge a work of art."
wiping blood from the battle I believe... sounds as if this may affect trump somehow? or just poetic verbage?

It could just smudge the trump, without actually affecting it.

Quote4) As Corwin threw his trump to Bleys, as Bleys fell, who's Trump do you suppose he used?

I would guess Fiona.

Quote5) Corwin, after escaping the dungeon: "Troubled by dreams of werewolves and Sabbats, I slept, and the full moon rose above the world."
Did Eric have anything to do with his nightmare, being he controls the weir?

I figure it was just a dream.

Quote6) Corwin; "I had set sail for a land near as sparkling as Amber itself, an almost immortal place, a place that did not really exist, not any longer.It was a place that vanishes into Chaos ages ago."
Did Chaos itself take over Avalon?????

It was destroyed, possibly by primal chaos from a shadow storm; possibly a chaos lord, possibly by Oberon, maybe by Corwin himself.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;303390It was destroyed, possibly by primal chaos from a shadow storm; possibly a chaos lord, possibly by Oberon, maybe by Corwin himself.

RPGPundit

All good possibilities!

In my ideas, he couldn't resist but have another 'Avalon' type place within his realms from his Pattern.
But it was closer to Chaos than his original, and this caused a boarder war with House Sepharoth. (IMC) This fits in very well as the Head of the House was the one (IMC) that destroyed the 1st Avalon.

It's one of those places in the novels you can write great scenarios in to explain. (My Chaos wars are better than Bentencourt's)

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;303485(My Chaos wars are better than Bentencourt's)

Doesn't take a whole lot to be better than Betancourt...

Soo true :(

I was going thruogh my underlinings of GoA, and these things were quizzical to me, or at least merited notice:

1) In the 1st sentence of the 1st chapter;
'I stood there on the beach and said, "Good-by Butterfly," and the ship slowly turned and headed out toward deep water. It would make it back to the lighthouse at Cabra, I knew, for that place lay near shadow.'
Sorcery? he stood, not walked to manipulate Pattern...
This is before he has advanced Pattern.

2) Chapter 2; Stygalldwir (which IMC is of House Rammus)
"I am not one of the lesser ones" it states, and proceeds to fight Corwin. Corwin cuts it 2x and runs it through with Grayswandir, yet it STILL lives, til he snaps it's neck.

Has anyone used a demon of this level of power in their stories, that could withstand Pattern blades to a certain extent?
any thoughts on it?

3) Chapter 4/1st paragraph ,  "Arrow of Desire"
'I unleashed an arrow of my desire into the midnight and it took fire overhead, burned it's way like a meteor into the north.'

any explanations to this? Possibly a way or precursor to lead into the Shadow of desire he was going to, Avalon?
Perhaps the 1st sign on the path is a falling meteor into the north?

4) In chapter 4 Corwin has a 3rd bad dream. I believe someone was reaching into his dreams somehow or using trump to affect him, dream pattern? dream trump? something.
It may be the effect of the black orad and his curse, but I like the 1st idea, knowing others ARE looking for him.

5) About 1/2 way through chapter 6;
"Version? It is my Avalon," he said
"Yes, this is my Avalon," he continued, "and I'll be coming back here for my opld age, if we live through Amber."

Has anyone though that Oberon as Genelon may have been saying the truth of things, and that if he did survive the Pattern remake, he may be in Avalon?

6) Chapter 7 / near the end of chapter.
'I moved off the road and stood in the shade, taking out the deck of Trumps Benedict had been carrying. I rifled through them, located Ge'rard, and removed him from the pack. The rest I returned to the silk-lined, wooden case, inlaid with bone, in which Benedict had carried them.
I held Ge'rard's Trump before me and regarded it.
After a time it grew warm, real, seemed to stir. I felt Ge'rard's actual presence. He was in Amber

Warm? Is this the only place they are warm, not cool?
This is slightly confusing to me. anyone?

7) Chapter 8      ...1/2 way through
"How did you cut the Black Road? You destroyed a section of it at the place you crossed over. How did you do it?"
"The Pattern." I said "If you ever get in trouble with that thing, hit it with the Pattern. You know how you have to sometimes hold it in your mind if Shadows begin to run away from you and things start going wild?"

Shadows run away from you and things go wild... anyone ever use this in scenario description? Near Chaos I understand, but anyone have any other ideas on it?

8) Chapter 9, near end.
;
"No, I'm not going to give you my death curse,. I've reserved that for the enemies of Amber - out there. "He gestured with his eyes. He pronounced it then, in a whisper, and I shuttered to overhear it.

Time to play RZ, if you could pronounce Eric's death curse, how would you word it? What do you think he stated in that Amberite shuttering phrase?

Well, that's it. I look forward to seeing everyone's input.
I'll save the next book for another month or two.
Ciao,
Gabriel

I'm aware that 'poetic verse' or 'writer's privilege' may be the answer for some, but try to avoid that as yours, let's try to theorize it for game application or story incorporation.

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;312659

7) Chapter 8      ...1/2 way through
"How did you cut the Black Road? You destroyed a section of it at the place you crossed over. How did you do it?"
"The Pattern." I said "If you ever get in trouble with that thing, hit it with the Pattern. You know how you have to sometimes hold it in your mind if Shadows begin to run away from you and things start going wild?"

Shadows run away from you and things go wild... anyone ever use this in scenario description? Near Chaos I understand, but anyone have any other ideas on it?

I always visualized this as a cross between the conditions which form a shadow storm and shapeshifting gone wild. I actually ran one F2F game with this as a basis for an idea as a sub-plot, but unfortunately, none of the PC's were sufficiently interested in figuring out what had happened, or even trying to use pattern on it ... they simply ran away from it, basically ignoring it and remaining focused on the main plot which was a bit of a pity, but in the end, I always feel its the players game and they sure did have fun with it.

To elaborate on the idea, I had a plane where shapeshifting was basically a primal power, everything was shifting continuously and in fact one would have needed shapeshifting just to survive in there. Nethertheless it was a fairly stable place, continuous changing yes, but in some sort of balance. Then due to some outside interference (adv. pattern & adv. logrus use by NPC's tied into the main plot), the balance was disturbed and the conditions for a shadow storm to form were met. The combination of the unbalance, the shadow storm, and the shapeshifting nature of the shadow all contributed to form something special ... something I described with those words "Shadows begin to run away from you and things start going wild".

Cool, this is what I envisioned the living extremes of the Shadow that House Laseema lives within, being they are advanced shapeshifters and excommunicated from Chaos.
(House Laseema based on House Lessiman originally created by Jvstin)
??

"arrow of desire" is clearly writers' poetic license, borrowed from Blake.

The Trump growing warm; well, it might mean visually "warm" the way people say some paintings are warm.
In any case, we know that trumps feel cool to the touch, unless their subject is dead or the trump has somehow lost its power; but maybe it warms up somewhat when in use?

RPGPundit

Yes, I thought it may warm up when in use, but there is no other instance of it I believe.
Also Benedict may have had a special set that worked differently, but again, this was never stated either.
I've often wondered if it was a typo, and he meant to put 'cool' or 'cold' there.

I know the questions are on the previous page, but c',on, let's hear the ideas...
is everyone bizzee with character concepts for jibbajibba's game? LOL
I know I am.

Actually busy with an extensive Database Audit .. but ...

oh, im on my 3rd character concept so far, still running it round my head to see how it changes between concept and what i actually want to play. but you know how some aspects of a character you cant know until it hits auction.

personally, i always thought that 'of desire' means that hes finding a 'shadow of desire' condition with his pattern ability.

as for shadows going wild- i would suspect that past ygg, there are places where shadow is just more volatile, and starts to react to the subconscious thoughts and desires of those with power, a case of their power running away from them unless they keep a handle on it.

i do like the idea of Oberon having retired to a pleasant shadow somewhere.

Quote from: Xenon;313030oh, im on my 3rd character concept so far, still running it round my head to see how it changes between concept and what i actually want to play. but you know how some aspects of a character you cant know until it hits auction.

I'm doing the same... been through a few thoughts, but my true desire has come out, I'm thinking of replaying my 1st character.

Quote from: Xenon;313030personally, i always thought that 'of desire' means that hes finding a 'shadow of desire' condition with his pattern ability.

yeah, that's why I thought his arrow may have been preliminary to finding his desired Shadow, Avalon. (or one close enough like it at that time in the story)

Quote from: Xenon;313030as for shadows going wild- i would suspect that past ygg, there are places where shadow is just more volatile, and starts to react to the subconscious thoughts and desires of those with power, a case of their power running away from them unless they keep a handle on it.

I'm with you on this, it would be interesting to make shadow-shifting more 'slippery' when describing them close to Chaos.
 As if the PC's desired descriptions slip away from them to similar or random things if Psyche isn't up to par.

Quote from: Xenon;313030i do like the idea of Oberon having retired to a pleasant shadow somewhere.

Yeah, there is a feeling that this line in the books let's us all harbor that thought with a smile.  ;)

Quote from: Xenon;313030personally, i always thought that 'of desire' means that hes finding a 'shadow of desire' condition with his pattern ability.

Yes, fine, but I think the "arrow of desire" business was just a quirky little thing Corwin did, in homage to Blake, that had no essencial necessity to it or meaning beyond Corwin just doing his thing.

RPGPundit

Well, let us just consider that Avalon's destiny was such immensely shaped by Corwin, that once he lost control of it and no longer held the threads, that which remained no longer corresponded with Corwin's vision of how Avalon should be. The opposite of this imaginary order of things would be chaos. Just imagine how England would have appeared to King Arthur 200 years after he had died? The land subverted by Christians and Saxons, his former enemies, and now they not only rule the land, but are also attacked by Danes and Norwegians and the Celts are at the brink of destruction. I'd call this chaos.

2) Chapter 2; Stygalldwir (which IMC is of House Rammus)
"I am not one of the lesser ones" it states, and proceeds to fight Corwin. Corwin cuts it 2x and runs it through with Grayswandir, yet it STILL lives, til he snaps it's neck.

Has anyone used a demon of this level of power in their stories, that could withstand Pattern blades to a certain extent?
any thoughts on it?

I was hoping for more input on this one, any examples from anyone?

Fun thread. As ever, I have opinions...

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;3014061) (chapter 6); Caine; "I'll be satisfied to serve the winner. That regency should be nice. I'd still like Random's head as part of the price, though"
Why do you suppose he hates Random so??? thoughts?

Random was clearly a little shit who once put a nail in Corwin's boot and waited for him to skewer his own foot for a laugh and, when we first met him, was the kind of guy who thought that abandoning his blind wife would be a good joke. I dare say he could have done any number of things that would have provoked his siblings to wish him dead. Remember that he consider himself to have gotten on better with Corwin than the others by virtue of staying out of Corwin's way. Then remember that nail in the boot and extrapolate...

Quote2) Corwin: "Of Shadow I have this to say;there is Shadow and there is Substance, and this is the root of all things. Of Substance, there is only Amber, the real city, upon the real Earth, which contains everything."
Which contains everything...

At the time Corwin was of the view that nothing outside of Amber was real, therefore everything real was contained within Amber.

Quote3) Corwin, before pulling out Bleys' Trump; "I dried my hands on my cloak as I spoke and wiped them carefully, as I'd hate to smudge a work of art."
wiping blood from the battle I believe... sounds as if this may affect trump somehow? or just poetic verbage?

He just didn't want to get his trumps dirty.

Quote4) As Corwin threw his trump to Bleys, as Bleys fell, who's Trump do you suppose he used?

Is this a trick question? Clearly Fiona. The redheads were working together and by this time Brand had already gone his own way so Fiona was Bleys' only real ally. Consider also the parallel with the Merlin series where Bleys disappears to recover after his is shot and again Fiona is his contact with Amber. They are full brother and sister and clearly share each other's trust in all things.

Quote5) Corwin, after escaping the dungeon: "Troubled by dreams of werewolves and Sabbats, I slept, and the full moon rose above the world."
Did Eric have anything to do with his nightmare, being he controls the weir?

Nah, it's just the sort of stuff that Corwin tends to dream about.

Quote6) Corwin; "I had set sail for a land near as sparkling as Amber itself, an almost immortal place, a place that did not really exist, not any longer.It was a place that vanished into Chaos ages ago."
Did Chaos itself take over Avalon?????

We know from Corwin that Avalon was eventually destroyed by a series of raids which he was only able to repel at great cost following the betrayal of Ganelon. I think Corwin is useing Chaos here to represent anarchy and the destruction of the society he created. Alternatively he may be again reerencing the belief that Amberites create shadows from nothing by visiting them, and suggesting that, in leaving forever as he did, Avalon disappeared.

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;3126591) In the 1st sentence of the 1st chapter;
'I stood there on the beach and said, "Good-by Butterfly," and the ship slowly turned and headed out toward deep water. It would make it back to the lighthouse at Cabra, I knew, for that place lay near shadow.'
Sorcery? he stood, not walked to manipulate Pattern...
This is before he has advanced Pattern.

Advanced Pattern is a concept invented for ADRPG, not a feature of the books. There are numerous references to charcters doing small shadow things and this is just one of them. It falls into the same category as fixing Flora's windows, and ultimate as finding Greyswandir in a hollow tree. If it makes it easier to accept, we can simple say that Corwin had travelled to a shadow with water and air currents which would direct the boat back through the shadow path he had opened when sailing from Cabra then let those currents take the boat away when he disembarked. Remember he was still some way from his intended destination at this stage.

Quote2) Chapter 2; Stygalldwir (which IMC is of House Rammus)
"I am not one of the lesser ones" it states, and proceeds to fight Corwin. Corwin cuts it 2x and runs it through with Grayswandir, yet it STILL lives, til he snaps it's neck.

Has anyone used a demon of this level of power in their stories, that could withstand Pattern blades to a certain extent?
any thoughts on it?

I've mentioned before that I don't see evidence in the books for the notion that Pattern blade + Choasite = instant death (another ADRPG invention), and here is another example. Stygalldwir is perhaps suggesting that he is not some underling or lesser demon, but nothing really marks him out as being exceptionally powerful other than that he doesn't abid by the rules of an RPG written several years after this story was published.

Quote3) Chapter 4/1st paragraph ,  "Arrow of Desire"
'I unleashed an arrow of my desire into the midnight and it took fire overhead, burned it's way like a meteor into the north.'

any explanations to this? Possibly a way or precursor to lead into the Shadow of desire he was going to, Avalon?
Perhaps the 1st sign on the path is a falling meteor into the north?

It's a bit of shadowplay similar to the boat rendered in slightly flowery language. At the most basic level, Corwin is seeking a shadow where a meteor or comet marks the path north, and using the motion of the arrow to provide the material around which to focus the shift (arrow to streak of light, rahter than blank sky to streak of light). We might speculate that this makes the shift slightly easier somehow, perhaps by providing something in the sy to change rather than making Corwin create something from scratch.

Quote5) About 1/2 way through chapter 6;
"Version? It is my Avalon," he said
"Yes, this is my Avalon," he continued, "and I'll be coming back here for my opld age, if we live through Amber."

Has anyone though that Oberon as Genelon may have been saying the truth of things, and that if he did survive the Pattern remake, he may be in Avalon?

I personally don't think Oberon would have survived, but if he did then this could be as good a place for him to hide as any.

Quote6) Chapter 7 / near the end of chapter.
'I moved off the road and stood in the shade, taking out the deck of Trumps Benedict had been carrying. I rifled through them, located Ge'rard, and removed him from the pack. The rest I returned to the silk-lined, wooden case, inlaid with bone, in which Benedict had carried them.
I held Ge'rard's Trump before me and regarded it.
After a time it grew warm, real, seemed to stir. I felt Ge'rard's actual presence. He was in Amber

Warm? Is this the only place they are warm, not cool?
This is slightly confusing to me. anyone?

The most obvious answer is that Zelazny slipped up, much the same as having the time flows between Amber and Chaos vary to suit the needs of the story. In practice we know that straining to use a trump makes it colder and that a trump which cannot be used is of a normal temperature. Maybe a trump in use is actually warm?

Quote7) Chapter 8      ...1/2 way through
"How did you cut the Black Road? You destroyed a section of it at the place you crossed over. How did you do it?"
"The Pattern." I said "If you ever get in trouble with that thing, hit it with the Pattern. You know how you have to sometimes hold it in your mind if Shadows begin to run away from you and things start going wild?"

Shadows run away from you and things go wild... anyone ever use this in scenario description? Near Chaos I understand, but anyone have any other ideas on it?

Again this is a product of Corwin's flawed world view at this stage. HE views shaodw in a largely solipsistic manner and is essentially struggling to find a way to rationalise the changes that occur in the more fluid shadow enviroments closer to Chaos. The shadows aren't running away from him so much as they change more swiftly due to natural causes than he is able to focus on details and enforce his own changes.

I'd imagine that this is a standard problem in certain parts of shadow, and might explain why the forces of Chaos favour the use of black roads which cut through the natural environment. Certain individuals might muster the willpower or momentum to break through this barrier, or circumvent it using trump or other methods, but this range of shadow, close to Chaos could be problematic for many travellers and the source of discontent between the two powers if it occurs due to interplay between Pattern and Logrus. We know that shadows immediately adjacent to Chaos are apparently more stable, if less solid so perhaps they are fallout from this more chaotic zone, or the final detritus from shadow storms salvaged before they tumble inot the abyss.

Definitely some story potential there...

Quote8) Chapter 9, near end.
;
"No, I'm not going to give you my death curse,. I've reserved that for the enemies of Amber - out there. "He gestured with his eyes. He pronounced it then, in a whisper, and I shuddered to overhear it.

Time to play RZ, if you could pronounce Eric's death curse, how would you word it? What do you think he stated in that Amberite shuttering phrase?

I wouldn't like to even contemplate it. Curses which would make even Corwin shudder are best left to the imagination where they retain their full power, rather than rendered in full and found wanting.

Quote5) Corwin, after escaping the dungeon: "Troubled by dreams of werewolves and Sabbats, I slept, and the full moon rose above the world."
Did Eric have anything to do with his nightmare, being he controls the weir?

Quote from: Trevelyan;341973Nah, it's just the sort of stuff that Corwin tends to dream about.

Hmm.  Possibly.  Consider it another bit of the JoJ mystery/legend?  Eric, at the time, was playing with his new red toy.  He never took the thing off and he seemed to be trying to test the scope of what he could do with it.

Quote from: Trevelyan;341973I personally don't think Oberon would have survived, but if he did then this could be as good a place for him to hide as any.

(referencing re-drawing/fixing the Pattern)

From an ADRPG perspective, I think it's significant that Oberon did NOT survive.

Oberon is (was) leaps and bounds more powerful than any DRPG character should ever be (at least in a general sense.  Oberon 'spikes' amazingly high on stats and powers).  In many ways, he represents the 'Amber Pinnacle' better than any novel character before or since.  Oberon is (was) godly.

He was not infallible or indestructible.

Lesson learned for ADRPG players, that! ;)

Quote from: scottishstorm;342493(referencing re-drawing/fixing the Pattern)

From an ADRPG perspective, I think it's significant that Oberon did NOT survive.

Oberon is (was) leaps and bounds more powerful than any DRPG character should ever be (at least in a general sense.  Oberon 'spikes' amazingly high on stats and powers).  In many ways, he represents the 'Amber Pinnacle' better than any novel character before or since.  Oberon is (was) godly.

He was not infallible or indestructible.

Lesson learned for ADRPG players, that! ;)

Hmmm....
yet Corwin survived creating one after being so exhausted, I'd imagine his father would too. That is my thought on it.

(thanks for the long list Trevelyan, good thoughts. I like that you addressed them all, even if i don't agree with all your speculations) ;)

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;342597Hmmm....
yet Corwin survived creating one after being so exhausted, I'd imagine his father would too. That is my thought on it.

(thanks for the long list Trevelyan, good thoughts. I like that you addressed them all, even if i don't agree with all your speculations) ;)

In the books Dworkin argues to the contrary:

"Where is your memory?" he said. "You know that it would be infinitely more difficult to repair the damage than it would be to start over again. Even the Jewel could more easily destroy it than repair it. Have your forgotten what it is like out there?" He gestured toward the wall behind him. "Do you want to go and look at it again?"

"There you are," he announced, "the hole in my mind. I can no longer think through it, only around it. I no longer know what must be done to repair something I now lack. If you think that you can do it, you must be willing to lay yourself open to instant destruction each time you depart the Pattern to cross the break. Not destruction by the dark portion. Destruction by the Pattern itself when you break the circuit. The Jewel may or may not sustain you. I do not know. But it will not grow easier. It will become more difficult with each circuit, and your strength will be lessening all the while. The last time we discussed it you were afraid. Do you mean to say you have grown bolder since then?"

Thanks, weilide.  I was going to make the same references.  You saved me some looking up/substantiating! ;)


Yes, Corwin 'drew' his own Pattern, even after being so exhausted.  I think it's also fair to say that Corwin wither 1) overstates his exhaustion, or b) thrives on said exhaustion.  At several points in the Chronicles, Corwin makes a point of saying how damn tired he is then goes ahead and does something epic (*). But, that is neither here nor there. :)

(*tired, not at his best, etc.)

My point about the lesson learned from Oberon dying in his successful repair attempt still stands.  In a nutshell, some caution for the players (justified or not) is usually a Good Thing (tm).

Granted, though, Merlin repaired a Broken Pattern.  And, Merlin's Endurance is probably far less buff than his dad's.  But, Merlin bugs me.  I choose not to look at his actions as canon.  I enjoy the second series mainly for the nifty one-liners and quirky character interaction.  Plot stuff and cosmology, I draw from the first.  (Yes, yes, I'm omitting half of Zelazny's printed Amber books from canon.  Sue me!) :)

I aim to please. Anyhow, I actually like to consider all of the universe stuff (pattern ghosts, spikards, etc) from the Merlin series canon but usually take the end of the first series as the starting point for story.

thanks for the reminder weilide, I did need that.
still... Oberon surviving... I like to keep that thought in the back of my mind.
 I acknowledge the difficulty of the situation, and I understand that the patriarch of the family should shuffle lose his immortal coil so that the others can come into their fullness... however, being raised on comics, I feel there is always the chance of someone coming back, and that statement Oberon made gives me a warm fuzzy feeling of hope in that.

I do enjoy some campaigns I ran still having Oberon in the scene as the head honcho, present or not.
I also like jibba's way too, MoF, anyway it works well with a good plot/story, I like that.

The mechanics of the deed aside, I feel the more important thing about Oberon's death is that it shows a side of him that Corwin did not think existed, which reinforces the whole "slowly reaching maturity" theme of the first series. That said, if Oberon returns from time to time as a Pattern Ghost or what-have-you I certainly have no complaints...

This might also be interesting.

Due to both of them maturing, you can consider Corwin and Oberon reaching an understanding of sorts towards the end of the books, and even some mesure of respect and affection.

But how will corwin react to the pattern-ghost of an earlier oberon, one who would treat him like a child? Wouldn't also this "desacration" of his father infuriate him?

I don't know that he'd give a shit, considering how extremely blasè he was about meeting his own pattern-ghost.

RPGpundit

I think it might have more influence on Merlin to meet his Grandfather on Pattern side.

I agree that Oberon bought it when he repaired the Pattern. He went in knowing he would die, he gave a final death blessing (instead of a curse), his funeral procession ran the length of shadow and most of the family attended his funeral where his body was cast into the abyss. It seems reasonable to assume he didn't survive.

Quote from: scottishstorm;342630Granted, though, Merlin repaired a Broken Pattern.  And, Merlin's Endurance is probably far less buff than his dad's.

The act of repairing a broken pattern is significantly different from that of repairing the damage to the primal pattern, though. Dworkin higlights to Oberon that the problem in repairing the normal pattern comes from leaving the existing lines each time you reach one of the break points. Yet a broken pattern has no existing lines and exerts no force on anyone who attempts to use the 'lines' to traverse it. The power of the proken pattern lies in the spaces between the lines, and Merlin's act of restoration is more akin to creating a new pattern from scratch, with the added bonus of only needing to draw on existing energy and not commit his own, than it is to anything Oberon did.

Quote from: Trevelyan;343406I agree that Oberon bought it when he repaired the Pattern. He went in knowing he would die, he gave a final death blessing (instead of a curse), his funeral procession ran the length of shadow and most of the family attended his funeral where his body was cast into the abyss. It seems reasonable to assume he didn't survive.


The act of repairing a broken pattern is significantly different from that of repairing the damage to the primal pattern, though. Dworkin higlights to Oberon that the problem in repairing the normal pattern comes from leaving the existing lines each time you reach one of the break points. Yet a broken pattern has no existing lines and exerts no force on anyone who attempts to use the 'lines' to traverse it. The power of the proken pattern lies in the spaces between the lines, and Merlin's act of restoration is more akin to creating a new pattern from scratch, with the added bonus of only needing to draw on existing energy and not commit his own, than it is to anything Oberon did.

All excellent points, and I appreciate the direction it's going, it made me think;
'How did Oberon cross the gaps?' I suddenly saw him in my mind's eye opening a vein and restoring sections, see him weaker as he progressed...
a crescendo in the Pattern center.
giving all of himself for his kingdom, Amber.

or other possibilities...

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;343517'How did Oberon cross the gaps?' I suddenly saw him in my mind's eye opening a vein and restoring sections, see him weaker as he progressed...

Not very likely. You don't need to spill blood to inscribe a Pattern (Corwin didn't), indeed blood has rather the opposite effect. If Oberon has been dribbling the precious red stuff as he walked along he could have easily erased a section that he had already walked by mistake.

In this case Merlin's experience with the broken pattern is probably a useful guide. He talkes about looking inside the Jewel of Judgement when he came to a break in order to see where the proper line should be. Oberon may easily have just walked the Pattern holding the Jewel but found the entire thing more draining than usual.

If you want to liven things up, remember that leaving the Pattern creates one of those strange tornados, but that the weilder of the Jewel can control the tornados. Combine that with the tendancy for the Jewel to suck the life force out of those using it, and Oberon might have been forced to fight off a new tornado each time he repaired a section of the Pattern, and had the Jewel drain him a little more each time as a consequence.

yeah, sounds good...
But I was thinking Dworkin inscribed it with blood, perhaps Oberon's blood was infused and bleed into the GAP, not the actual Pattern itself.
still possible.

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;3014062) Corwin: "Of Shadow I have this to say;there is Shadow and there is Substance, and this is the root of all things. Of Substance, there is only Amber, the real city, upon the real Earth, which contains everything."
Which contains everything...

Yeah, it's an old post, but I thought I would throw my tuppence in:

Somewhere Corwin alludes (I think) to Arden stretching across the continent to the west (at least what was west that day). He also talks about riding and hunting in Arden and seems implied that he was still in Amber rather than into the Golden Circle or other neighboring Shadows. My assumption is that Amber is a whole Shdow or planet, while Primal Amber is just a lump of primal matter floating on the Sea of Chaos.

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;3014065) Corwin, after escaping the dungeon: "Troubled by dreams of werewolves and Sabbats, I slept, and the full moon rose above the world."
Did Eric have anything to do with his nightmare, being he controls the weir?

I believe this was after he viewed the Vale of Garnath and observed the effects of his Blood Curse on Amber. My take is that Corwin is psychically sensitive enough, especially in his weakened state (both physically and mentally), to be vulnerable to the psychic emanations of those effects. He immediate recognizes as his own handiwork after all.

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;3014066) Corwin; "I had set sail for a land near as sparkling as Amber itself, an almost immortal place, a place that did not really exist, not any longer.It was a place that vanishes into Chaos ages ago."
Did Chaos itself take over Avalon?????

I have this idea that Corwin destroyed Avalon with a Blood Curse, causing it to be consumed by Primal Chaos. I view Avalon as his first Shadow of Desire where he was working out things, especially his relationship with Dierdre and Eric, and maybe Oberon. Eric tracked him down and began meddling, eventually leading to a confrontation where Corwin was willing to destroy Avalon rather than let Eric take it from him. Thus his certainty that the "real" Avalon was gone, destroyed.

Those answers all sound very reasonable.

RPGPundit

Here's a little trick with Trump that we never saw in the Corwin chronicles, from Merlin in chapter two of Trumps of Doom (pg. 588-589, The Great Book of Amber edition), italicized emphasis added by me:

   I picked up one of the cards, which held a peculiar, almost familiar fascination for me--depicting a small grassy point jutting out into a quiet lake, a sliver of something bright, glistening, unidentifiable, off to the right.  I exhaled heavily upon it, fogging it for an instant, and struck it with my fingernail.  It rang like a glass bell and flickered to life.  Shadows swam and pulsed as the scene inched into evening.  I passed my hand over it and it grew still once again--back to lake, grasses, daytime.


Has anyone ever remembered about this breathing-on-a-Trump-then-tapping-it to activate it, and used it in a game?  Years before the iPhone...years!

Quote from: Bird_of_Ill_Omen;360771Here's a little trick with Trump that we never saw in the Corwin chronicles, from Merlin in chapter two of Trumps of Doom (pg. 588-589, The Great Book of Amber edition), italicized emphasis added by me:

   I picked up one of the cards, which held a peculiar, almost familiar fascination for me--depicting a small grassy point jutting out into a quiet lake, a sliver of something bright, glistening, unidentifiable, off to the right.  I exhaled heavily upon it, fogging it for an instant, and struck it with my fingernail.  It rang like a glass bell and flickered to life.  Shadows swam and pulsed as the scene inched into evening.  I passed my hand over it and it grew still once again--back to lake, grasses, daytime.


Has anyone ever remembered about this breathing-on-a-Trump-then-tapping-it to activate it, and used it in a game?  Years before the iPhone...years!

In my games this is a very advanced trump-trick, one that allows you to see the area around a trump as if it were active, without actually activating the trump.  Lets you spy directly on a location or person, though of course it can be detected and/or blocked by things that would block or detect regular trump spying.

Quote from: Malleus Aforethought;360429Yeah, it's an old post, but I thought I would throw my tuppence in:

Somewhere Corwin alludes (I think) to Arden stretching across the continent to the west (at least what was west that day). He also talks about riding and hunting in Arden and seems implied that he was still in Amber rather than into the Golden Circle or other neighboring Shadows. My assumption is that Amber is a whole Shdow or planet, while Primal Amber is just a lump of primal matter floating on the Sea of Chaos.



I believe this was after he viewed the Vale of Garnath and observed the effects of his Blood Curse on Amber. My take is that Corwin is psychically sensitive enough, especially in his weakened state (both physically and mentally), to be vulnerable to the psychic emanations of those effects. He immediate recognizes as his own handiwork after all.



I have this idea that Corwin destroyed Avalon with a Blood Curse, causing it to be consumed by Primal Chaos. I view Avalon as his first Shadow of Desire where he was working out things, especially his relationship with Dierdre and Eric, and maybe Oberon. Eric tracked him down and began meddling, eventually leading to a confrontation where Corwin was willing to destroy Avalon rather than let Eric take it from him. Thus his certainty that the "real" Avalon was gone, destroyed.

Exactly!  That's how I have it woven IMC
Corwin's rivalry with Eric involving Dierdre ended up with either Chaos coming after a favored son of Amber or Corwin himself doing it, those are the 2 top rumors to those who hear tell of the story in the Castle, but only Corwin knows fer sure.
(as playing Gabriel, son of Corwin, "I always wondered if My older half brother Merlin heard that story straight from Dad's mouth")


Thanks, i always like to come back from a sabbatical and see a beloved post 'o mine revived and inspiring a favorite past-time...
talkin' about Amber.

Arden IMC is a Vast Forest, Like perhaps the Continent Pangea and all of the West is Forest, the further West you go, perhaps even the wilder the growth is, and wilder the Flora & Fauna, & even varied types of Forest...
And beyond the Western part of Amber being Forest lands, there are also unlimited amounts of Shadow Forest to use by the ruler of Amber as barriers to the West....

"My assumption is that Amber is a whole Shdow or planet, while Primal Amber is just a lump of primal matter floating on the Sea of Chaos." you said,
I Agree.

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;379996Arden IMC is a Vast Forest, Like perhaps the Continent Pangea and all of the West is Forest, the further West you go, perhaps even the wilder the growth is, and wilder the Flora & Fauna, & even varied types of Forest...
And beyond the Western part of Amber being Forest lands, there are also unlimited amounts of Shadow Forest to use by the ruler of Amber as barriers to the West....

If I recall correctly, in some paratextual stuff somewhere Zelazny mentions other big cities on the continent. It's a shame we never see them.

Quote from: weilide;380003If I recall correctly, in some paratextual stuff somewhere Zelazny mentions other big cities on the continent. It's a shame we never see them.

OK, you can't throw that sstuff out without referencing it, Lemme know if ya find what yer talkin' aboiut, ya got my interest up.
But i would assume there may be other cities that nobles may have or even smaller towns, why not?

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;384584OK, you can't throw that sstuff out without referencing it, Lemme know if ya find what yer talkin' aboiut, ya got my interest up.
But i would assume there may be other cities that nobles may have or even smaller towns, why not?

I'm out of the country right now so I don't have access to my books but I believe it's in Zelazny's intro to either Black Road War or Seven No Trump. It's included in the NESFA collection in any case.

Is the Amber stuff in there worth acquiring?  I know theres the short stories, but what else of interest is included?

The Amber stuff alone isn't worth the price of admission so if that's all you're curious about then I wouldn't bother. If you look on the NESFA Website http://www.nesfa.org/press/Books/Zelazny-Project.html (http://www.nesfa.org/press/Books/Zelazny-Project.html) they detailed descriptions of the contents of each volume. The stuff IS interesting in its way -- hints of what was likely come in the third series (more discussion of Amber's navy, for example) but it's mostly trivia, at the end of the day. That said, I'm quite happy with the project taken as a whole and am glad I have it.

Quote from: weilide;385717I'm out of the country right now so I don't have access to my books but I believe it's in Zelazny's intro to either Black Road War or Seven No Trump. It's included in the NESFA collection in any case.

Have you tracked down that reference yet? hope to get the words on it...

I've always envisioned Amber as being a "kingdom" with the golden circle shadows as part of its region, and treated them as a kind of "continent" even though each is also their own shadow.  If that makes sense.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;482268I've always envisioned Amber as being a "kingdom" with the golden circle shadows as part of its region, and treated them as a kind of "continent" even though each is also their own shadow.  If that makes sense.

RPGPundit

I like that idea. It's easy to rationalize how in each particular shadow of the golden circle, the kingdoms/city states are the ruling power for the entire continent, but only in their respective shadows. Kind of a situation where the continent is of equal shape and size in each shadow, and the ruling cities have different names or may be in completely different geographic locations, yes?

Quote from: Sydius Mendoza;486169I like that idea. It's easy to rationalize how in each particular shadow of the golden circle, the kingdoms/city states are the ruling power for the entire continent, but only in their respective shadows. Kind of a situation where the continent is of equal shape and size in each shadow, and the ruling cities have different names or may be in completely different geographic locations, yes?

Exactly, and some are pretty weird but recognizable copies of Amber (and thus, of each other) while some others are far more unusual.

RPGPundit

So by that line of reasoning are regions like Arden and Garnath part of Amber, or the shadows closest to Amber?

By fairly strong implication, Arden is part of Amber but it's possible to start Shadow Shifting one you're a ways into it.

yes, all past 4 replys have a sense of how I do it too.
 Arden is the forest near Amber, but stretches into Shadow, IMC, into almost everyshadow there is a deep forest within. Like opposite to Chaos, where the Shadows are close and easy to flip to & fro, in the Goolden Circle, the Shdow-pathes are very well established & followed, if not widely known. Which would make the path a closely guarded secret, as there are those who can move thru if they know the way. (even without Amberite blood, IMC, any Immortal blood garners the gift with restrictions, only the initiates of the Logrus & Pattern move freely thru Shadow, and a rare few others)
There are even worlds not yet discovered, hidden away by elders like Finndo & Osric, even perhaps Oberon & Dworkin.  Always a good storyline.

In my game, Arden itself is inside amber, its not a separate shadow; however, arden has a border "into shadow" with perhaps infinite numbers of "shadow ardens".

RPGpundit

In "Nine Princes in Amber" Random used a common gun to shoot at Julian's hounds.
So it's seems that Arden is made of a little different stuff than Amber itself. Maybe as you said that the shadows somehow overlapped there.

Quote from: Evermasterx;489675In "Nine Princes in Amber" Random used a common gun to shoot at Julian's hounds.
So it's seems that Arden is made of a little different stuff than Amber itself. Maybe as you said that the shadows somehow overlapped there.

Exactly. I'd blame it on "GM error" (in this case, factually speaking, it was the author not completely getting his setting down yet at the time he wrote that), and suggest that at that particular situation Random was at one of those fuzzy overlap-regions full of shadow trails where anything may or may not work.

RPGPundit

I started reading the series again a month ago and made a list of things that made me think.  Here are some of them.

1. Flora fails to get back to Amber in 9P.  Why doesn't she have a Trump of Amber?  Corwin later gets one from the library.  She is your contact in that shadow watching an important and powerful rival.  Don't you want her to be able to travel to you quickly?!?  She is also 'missing' some Trumps, which ones?

2.  15 Princes of Amber, 6 dead – Corwin in 9PinA Huh? Benedict, Osric, Finndo, Eric, Corwin, Bleys, Brand, Caine, Julian, Gerard, Random, Delwin makes 12, with 2 dead (Osric and Finndo).  Who are the 3 other dead brothers (he heard incorrectly that Benedict was dead so that might be the inconsistency 4 dead)?  Or is this from his brain damage?  Or is it because he is telling the story later to Merlin?  That would add in Merlin and Martin and Brand would be dead making 3 dead brothers.  Still the math doesn't add up.

3. 8 Princesses of Amber, 2 dead possibly 4 – Corwin in 9PinA
Again Huh?  Deirdre, Fiona, Llewlla, Florimel (Flora), Coral {from Merlin Cycle, would Corwin know about her?],  Sand [Another from Merlin Cycle].  If it is just the Corwin cycle ones then that is only 4.   I think Sand he would know but not Coral who wasn't even sure herself.  That would be 5 what about the other 3?  Maybe they are unimportant to the succession so left out?  

4.  When does Brand break the pattern?  Why would he do it when he isn't attuned to the Jewel of Judgment?  If Oberon was lured out by a hope of repairing the pattern, which was hinted at in some of the books, it had to be before Corwin's blinding.  Yet his blinding was supposedly the opening Chaos needed for the black road.  Huh?  Isn't this a circular timing issue?  Help!  I must have something messed up here.

5.  Did Benedict know about being able to shapeshift?  Could he have guessed that Ganeleon was Oberon when he fought Gerard?  Or could Oberon have revealed himself to him?

6. Could Brand have traversed the Logrus?  I think not as Suhuy would know of it, though even if he did he might not tell Merlin about it for reasons of his own.  It might explain some instability even before he bathed in the fount.

7.  Oberon changed his mind altering 'the grand design'  What did he change it from and to?  Dworkin avoids the question in The Hand of Oberon.

8. When did Dworkin start acting 'mad'?  Or was it just because his motives were so far above the 9 princes that they could not fathom them.  Now he might not seem so mad because they have more perspective and are more 'Amberite'

And I haven't even started doing this very much for the second series which has even more interesting threads through it.  Thoughts?

a possible explanation for the first point:
It's just because she is monitoring Corwin that she doesn't possess a trump to go back: if she can't, neither Corwin can. You'll never know...

Even without a Trump for Amber, Flora could get back quickly by calling up Eric by Trump and having him pull her through to the city. I have some sort of vague recollection of Flora being on the outs with Eric and this whole task of guarding Corwin on a backwater Shadow being a sort of penance for her, as she tries to get back into his good graces. (Can someone confirm this?) If that's the case, Eric might have swiped her Amber Trump just to keep her a little bit more dependent on him.

For similar reasons, any other "missing trumps" might be removed because they depict people Eric feared might give Flora unauthorized help. But Corwin counts out everybody who seems important in Flora's deck, so I always figured his "you're missing a few cards" comment was just his way of being flippant and a bit of a jerk. I don't think we can really look for Delwin, Sand, Osric, Finndo, etc. as a way of balancing this equation, because this is all so early in the series I think Zelazny is still finding his footing, and I don't think he's so soon accounting for surprise relatives that won't be introduced until future novels-- he's already got enough Amberite characters to contend with. (For this same reason, I think it's easier to just discard Corwin's calculations about living and dead family members. He could have been including dead siblings Zelazny never intended to mention again, for all we know.)

As for Flora's comment about having tried and failed to get back to Amber on her own, I'm not sure. She might be telling the truth. Random had to bypass several roadblocks on the way. (Were these Fiona's doing, or am I misremembering?) Maybe Random had better luck, or more skill with shadowwalking, or whatever. Or maybe Flora was lying to Corwin about that. I'm becoming increasingly sold on the "Flora is an expert manipulator who loves being underestimated and just plays everybody constantly" school of thought. I blame you guys.

Quote5. Did Benedict know about being able to shapeshift? Could he have guessed that Ganeleon was Oberon when he fought Gerard? Or could Oberon have revealed himself to him?

I've always supposed Oberon hid the family's Chaosian heritage from his children, and that none of them knew about any of that stuff (including shapeshifters in the family) unless Dworkin let some bits and pieces slip to the redheads at some point.

But Benedict's no dummy, and he must have known something was up when Gerard got out-wrestled. It certainly must have been clear that Ganelon was no ordinary Shadow schmuck. It's a pity we aren't privy to more of Benedict's thought process.

Quote4. When does Brand break the pattern? Why would he do it when he isn't attuned to the Jewel of Judgment? If Oberon was lured out by a hope of repairing the pattern, which was hinted at in some of the books, it had to be before Corwin's blinding. Yet his blinding was supposedly the opening Chaos needed for the black road. Huh? Isn't this a circular timing issue? Help! I must have something messed up here.

I don't think we can assume Corwin's curse made the Black Road possible. He blames himself for the Black Road, certainly, but he may just be being hard on himself, with the hindsight that, by the time he's recounting all this, he ended up not wanting to rule Amber quite so much after all.

I think it's more likely that Brand breaking the Pattern caused the Black Road, and Corwin's curse was sort of incidental, the timing not necessarily related. Perhaps Brand made use of Eric's coronation and Corwin's blinding as a handy distraction to slip away to the Primal Pattern and ruin it, though. Considering his unusual powers and the Amberites' apparent ignorance of the Primal Pattern at the time, though, he probably could have done that whenever he wanted with no one the wiser.

Really, the bigger question to me is how Fiona and Bleys kept Brand imprisoned if he already had his bizarre "living Trump" powers. (My prevailing theory is that Brand could have escaped whenever, but stayed voluntarily and made a show of being a prisoner. Both to keep the extent of his power secret from his captors, and to make a big, sympathetic scene out of being rescued from dire peril. I suppose if it ever came down to his word against Fiona's, this scenario would play better than Brand's having escaped the prison Shadow using unknown powers.)

The more I learn and the more I realize that everything can be explain in different ways and you'll never be sure about nothing: the Amber Way! I love it.

Quote from: alcmarauder;4963941. Flora fails to get back to Amber in 9P.  Why doesn't she have a Trump of Amber?  Corwin later gets one from the library.  She is your contact in that shadow watching an important and powerful rival.  Don't you want her to be able to travel to you quickly?!?  She is also 'missing' some Trumps, which ones?

Not to start a 'talking bear' conversation, but so many things Florimel is telling Corwin when he finds her have to be false.

She allows Corwin to find some cards she doesn't need. They aren't even hers.  She gives Corwin the challenge and means to go to Amber. She waves her hands and talks about not being able to go herself.  Flora cons Corwin from word one.

She's already talking to Eric. She's valuable to Eric. She can get to Amber any time she wants.

Quote from: alcmarauder;4963942.  15 Princes of Amber, 6 dead – Corwin in 9PinA Huh? Benedict, Osric, Finndo, Eric, Corwin, Bleys, Brand, Caine, Julian, Gerard, Random, Delwin makes 12, with 2 dead (Osric and Finndo).  Who are the 3 other dead brothers (he heard incorrectly that Benedict was dead so that might be the inconsistency 4 dead)?  Or is this from his brain damage?  Or is it because he is telling the story later to Merlin?  That would add in Merlin and Martin and Brand would be dead making 3 dead brothers.  Still the math doesn't add up.

Really it isn't supposed to add up.  This is a combination of GM laying down narrative for later use and Zelazny putting down fence posts for later use. Basically Corwin is repeating something he learned as a kid. He never even met Osric, Finndo, or many of Oberon's kids born long ago.

Quote from: alcmarauder;4963943. 8 Princesses of Amber, 2 dead possibly 4 – Corwin in 9PinA
Again Huh?  Deirdre, Fiona, Llewlla, Florimel (Flora), Coral {from Merlin Cycle, would Corwin know about her?],  Sand [Another from Merlin Cycle].  If it is just the Corwin cycle ones then that is only 4.   I think Sand he would know but not Coral who wasn't even sure herself.  That would be 5 what about the other 3?  Maybe they are unimportant to the succession so left out?  

Yep. See above.  Lots of fun.

Quote from: alcmarauder;4963944.  When does Brand break the pattern?  Why would he do it when he isn't attuned to the Jewel of Judgment?  If Oberon was lured out by a hope of repairing the pattern, which was hinted at in some of the books, it had to be before Corwin's blinding.  Yet his blinding was supposedly the opening Chaos needed for the black road.  Huh?  Isn't this a circular timing issue?  Help!  I must have something messed up here.

Corwin's curse is ONE element of things spinning out of control. Naturally Corwin thinks he's the one responsible for everything. Brand stabs Martin as a means of opening the Pattern to reworking. Martin has been hiding for years when Corwin returns.

Quote from: alcmarauder;4963945.  Did Benedict know about being able to shapeshift?  Could he have guessed that Ganeleon was Oberon when he fought Gerard?  Or could Oberon have revealed himself to him?

Count on it.

Quote from: alcmarauder;4963946. Could Brand have traversed the Logrus?

Based on everything we see or surmise about Brand....he doesn't seem to have needed the Logrus. I also have a hard time imagining the Chaos guys trusting Brand with the Logrus....especially considering they were planning on destroying Amber....which Brand most certainly did not agree with.

Quote from: alcmarauder;4963948. When did Dworkin start acting 'mad'?  Or was it just because his motives were so far above the 9 princes that they could not fathom them.  Now he might not seem so mad because they have more perspective and are more 'Amberite'

Corwin makes a comment in passing that Oberon had looked through shadow long ago for 'healers' to address certain health issues with Dworkin.  I'm thinking head doctors here.

Maybe someone can find that specific passage.

Ok I think that the Flora as master manipulator who sets Corwin in the right direction has some strength to it.  If that is her secondary deck a lot of things make more sense.  Why wouldn't she take the deck with her on her travels anyway?  The anger she shows that he found them is just for show. Ok that could explain a few things better.  Also who is to say she didn't actually get there?  Why would she say she had gotten there?  When a lie suits her better. Hmmm.....

Actually the Demons in The Guns of Avalon  (or was it The Hand of Oberon?) name Corwin as 'The Opener'.  So the forces of Chaos think that he opened the way.  

I think the 'Living Trump' was actually a series of things and he was given the powers in stages.  After being rescued he recieved another dose upping his power even more.  But possibly it took him time to adjust to the new powers.  But there are things that block trumps, (Luke's Blue stone Cave and the keep of the 4 worlds come to mind.)  Surely Fiona or Bleys could shadow walk to such a place.  Now getting Brand there would be trickier.  The power of everyone together was enough to punch through the resistance however suggesting it was some magical protection rather than situational.

I had the feeling that the doctors came after the damage to the pattern.  Perhaps he felt if he could get through part of the damage in Dworkin's mind he would think of a solution to the rest of the damage.  

You are assuming that all Chaosians are on the same side.  Maybe one faction thought the benifits of a Logrus initiate (that Suhuy could see through) would be worth the risk of his increased knowledge of Chaos.  Also could he have done it if he wanted too?  Could he get to it?  Could he survive if he did it?  Would he have sufficient motive to make the attempt?  (In Bendicort's admitedly flawed series some of Dworkin's and Oberon's relatives did not survive the Logrus.  Possibly because the pattern was manifesting in them?)

If he was taught it as a child then could it be true?  Did Zelazny drop a hint of earlier times here that he later decided were too much for the story?  If so why didn't he revise it in newer editions?  Especially when he wrote contridictory things later.  

Here is a thought, what if Oberon had his earlier children go and create their own Patterns after a certain amount of personal development.  "There is nothing more for you here.  Go create your own Pattern."  The 'Grand Design' that Dworkin describes is not a single pattern but a series of Patterns that will withstand even the destruciton of the Primal Pattern.  Osric and Findo were not satisfied with this, they wanted to rule in Amber not their own universe.  The biggest hole in this is that The Courts of Chaos would know of the creation of new patterns, or at least Suhuy would.  But why would they ever say anything about them to the characters we have followed?  Also with the rapid time flow the people who knew of it may not have passed it on before they died.  Maybe Merlin would learn of them when he became King of Chaos?  Hmmm.... just some thoughts. LOL

This thread caught my eye. There are so many awesome questions in here. I will throw in my two cents on the very first. With luck I can come back and finish reading the other questions here.

Thank you for posting this.

NPIA

1) (chapter 6); Caine; "I'll be satisfied to serve the winner. That regency should be nice. I'd still like Random's head as part of the price, though"
Why do you suppose he hates Random so??? thoughts?

My answer: I agree with the Random growing up as a brat concept. Also, Caine always knew more than he was letting on. Perhaps he knew something of Random no one else knew as he did. This also gives depth to the family idea...That there is a story to all characters even though NPIA was from Corwin's POV.

2) Corwin: "Of Shadow I have this to say;there is Shadow and there is Substance, and this is the root of all things. Of Substance, there is only Amber, the real city, upon the real Earth, which contains everything."
Which contains everything...

Answer: "Contains everything"... This could be a POV concept. It contains everything to Corwin. Just as people say, "My S.O. means everything to me." They does not mean literally: My S.O. is also a plane, train, cup, cloud, atom, alien, nightmare, etc... It simply means, "everything worth loving". Perhaps Corwin is just saying, "everything worth loving" or "everything worth having substance".

3) Corwin, before pulling out Bleys' Trump; "I dried my hands on my cloak as I spoke and wiped them carefully, as I'd hate to smudge a work of art."
wiping blood from the battle I believe... sounds as if this may affect trump somehow? or just poetic verbage?

Answer: There are many possible answers to this one. There is no knowing if Corwin knew of Blood Trumps at this time (or if he does now)...But... He is aware that blood will dry on things...almost anything... So perhaps he did not know the workings of trumps (just how to work them) and with that thought that dried blood on a trump would ruin it.  It's only polite after all.  

4) As Corwin threw his trump to Bleys, as Bleys fell, who's Trump do you suppose he used?

Answer: Fiona. (Long story here, I think someone captured it well before).

5) Corwin, after escaping the dungeon: "Troubled by dreams of werewolves and Sabbats, I slept, and the full moon rose above the world."
Did Eric have anything to do with his nightmare, being he controls the weir?

Answer: Ohhh Good one. I just like this question...  So many good possibilities.  Typical dream analysis suggests possible: Werewolves are a changing breed.  Perhaps it was a reflection of Corwin being chased by the changes occurring with in himself. He may not like what he is becoming. Maybe to him it is monstrous.  

I am unaware of Sabbat "creatures". They are holidays. I don't think that the WOD comes into play here...  

So troubled by Sabbats (holidays)... Corwin may fear that there will be no peace.

This is typical dream analysis though. Always more to AMBER though, yes? Or is there?????

6) Corwin; "I had set sail for a land near as sparkling as Amber itself, an almost immortal place, a place that did not really exist, not any longer.It was a place that vanishes into Chaos ages ago."
Did Chaos itself take over Avalon?????

Answer: Look at the real life "idea" behind Avalon. It is a place of FAERIE and MYTH etc...  To many the Fae and all these features are "CHAOTIC" and were removed from our own REALITY behind the Mists to save our sanity.

Also, remember as above...Corwin sees only Amber as THE place of reality. To him...maybe everything else is just Chaos. And without him there to "own" Avalon it fell in to the disarray that the reflection of Chaos shines on any Shadow. Hmmm?

I enjoyed these questions so much. Thank you again OP for the post. And thank you everyone for your awesome concepts.  Everyone is correct in their own versions of AMBER...  May all your games be enhanced by these new and wonderful ideas.