Quizical things from Zelazny's Amber.

[RPGPundit]

I like that idea. It's easy to rationalize how in each particular shadow of the golden circle, the kingdoms/city states are the ruling power for the entire continent, but only in their respective shadows. Kind of a situation where the continent is of equal shape and size in each shadow, and the ruling cities have different names or may be in completely different geographic locations, yes?

Exactly, and some are pretty weird but recognizable copies of Amber (and thus, of each other) while some others are far more unusual.

RPGPundit

[Sydius Mendoza]

So by that line of reasoning are regions like Arden and Garnath part of Amber, or the shadows closest to Amber?

[daniel_ream]

By fairly strong implication, Arden is part of Amber but it's possible to start Shadow Shifting one you're a ways into it.

[gabriel_ss4u]

yes, all past 4 replys have a sense of how I do it too.
 Arden is the forest near Amber, but stretches into Shadow, IMC, into almost everyshadow there is a deep forest within. Like opposite to Chaos, where the Shadows are close and easy to flip to & fro, in the Goolden Circle, the Shdow-pathes are very well established & followed, if not widely known. Which would make the path a closely guarded secret, as there are those who can move thru if they know the way. (even without Amberite blood, IMC, any Immortal blood garners the gift with restrictions, only the initiates of the Logrus & Pattern move freely thru Shadow, and a rare few others)
There are even worlds not yet discovered, hidden away by elders like Finndo & Osric, even perhaps Oberon & Dworkin.  Always a good storyline.

[RPGPundit]

In my game, Arden itself is inside amber, its not a separate shadow; however, arden has a border "into shadow" with perhaps infinite numbers of "shadow ardens".

RPGpundit

[Evermasterx]

In "Nine Princes in Amber" Random used a common gun to shoot at Julian's hounds.
So it's seems that Arden is made of a little different stuff than Amber itself. Maybe as you said that the shadows somehow overlapped there.

[RPGPundit]

In "Nine Princes in Amber" Random used a common gun to shoot at Julian's hounds.
So it's seems that Arden is made of a little different stuff than Amber itself. Maybe as you said that the shadows somehow overlapped there.

Exactly. I'd blame it on "GM error" (in this case, factually speaking, it was the author not completely getting his setting down yet at the time he wrote that), and suggest that at that particular situation Random was at one of those fuzzy overlap-regions full of shadow trails where anything may or may not work.

RPGPundit

[alcmarauder]

I started reading the series again a month ago and made a list of things that made me think.  Here are some of them.

1. Flora fails to get back to Amber in 9P.  Why doesn't she have a Trump of Amber?  Corwin later gets one from the library.  She is your contact in that shadow watching an important and powerful rival.  Don't you want her to be able to travel to you quickly?!?  She is also 'missing' some Trumps, which ones?

2.  15 Princes of Amber, 6 dead – Corwin in 9PinA Huh? Benedict, Osric, Finndo, Eric, Corwin, Bleys, Brand, Caine, Julian, Gerard, Random, Delwin makes 12, with 2 dead (Osric and Finndo).  Who are the 3 other dead brothers (he heard incorrectly that Benedict was dead so that might be the inconsistency 4 dead)?  Or is this from his brain damage?  Or is it because he is telling the story later to Merlin?  That would add in Merlin and Martin and Brand would be dead making 3 dead brothers.  Still the math doesn't add up.

3. 8 Princesses of Amber, 2 dead possibly 4 – Corwin in 9PinA
Again Huh?  Deirdre, Fiona, Llewlla, Florimel (Flora), Coral {from Merlin Cycle, would Corwin know about her?],  Sand [Another from Merlin Cycle].  If it is just the Corwin cycle ones then that is only 4.   I think Sand he would know but not Coral who wasn't even sure herself.  That would be 5 what about the other 3?  Maybe they are unimportant to the succession so left out?  

4.  When does Brand break the pattern?  Why would he do it when he isn't attuned to the Jewel of Judgment?  If Oberon was lured out by a hope of repairing the pattern, which was hinted at in some of the books, it had to be before Corwin's blinding.  Yet his blinding was supposedly the opening Chaos needed for the black road.  Huh?  Isn't this a circular timing issue?  Help!  I must have something messed up here.

5.  Did Benedict know about being able to shapeshift?  Could he have guessed that Ganeleon was Oberon when he fought Gerard?  Or could Oberon have revealed himself to him?

6. Could Brand have traversed the Logrus?  I think not as Suhuy would know of it, though even if he did he might not tell Merlin about it for reasons of his own.  It might explain some instability even before he bathed in the fount.

7.  Oberon changed his mind altering 'the grand design'  What did he change it from and to?  Dworkin avoids the question in The Hand of Oberon.

8. When did Dworkin start acting 'mad'?  Or was it just because his motives were so far above the 9 princes that they could not fathom them.  Now he might not seem so mad because they have more perspective and are more 'Amberite'

And I haven't even started doing this very much for the second series which has even more interesting threads through it.  Thoughts?

[Evermasterx]

a possible explanation for the first point:
It's just because she is monitoring Corwin that she doesn't possess a trump to go back: if she can't, neither Corwin can. You'll never know...

[Brent Not Broken]

Even without a Trump for Amber, Flora could get back quickly by calling up Eric by Trump and having him pull her through to the city. I have some sort of vague recollection of Flora being on the outs with Eric and this whole task of guarding Corwin on a backwater Shadow being a sort of penance for her, as she tries to get back into his good graces. (Can someone confirm this?) If that's the case, Eric might have swiped her Amber Trump just to keep her a little bit more dependent on him.

For similar reasons, any other "missing trumps" might be removed because they depict people Eric feared might give Flora unauthorized help. But Corwin counts out everybody who seems important in Flora's deck, so I always figured his "you're missing a few cards" comment was just his way of being flippant and a bit of a jerk. I don't think we can really look for Delwin, Sand, Osric, Finndo, etc. as a way of balancing this equation, because this is all so early in the series I think Zelazny is still finding his footing, and I don't think he's so soon accounting for surprise relatives that won't be introduced until future novels-- he's already got enough Amberite characters to contend with. (For this same reason, I think it's easier to just discard Corwin's calculations about living and dead family members. He could have been including dead siblings Zelazny never intended to mention again, for all we know.)

As for Flora's comment about having tried and failed to get back to Amber on her own, I'm not sure. She might be telling the truth. Random had to bypass several roadblocks on the way. (Were these Fiona's doing, or am I misremembering?) Maybe Random had better luck, or more skill with shadowwalking, or whatever. Or maybe Flora was lying to Corwin about that. I'm becoming increasingly sold on the "Flora is an expert manipulator who loves being underestimated and just plays everybody constantly" school of thought. I blame you guys.

5. Did Benedict know about being able to shapeshift? Could he have guessed that Ganeleon was Oberon when he fought Gerard? Or could Oberon have revealed himself to him?

I've always supposed Oberon hid the family's Chaosian heritage from his children, and that none of them knew about any of that stuff (including shapeshifters in the family) unless Dworkin let some bits and pieces slip to the redheads at some point.

But Benedict's no dummy, and he must have known something was up when Gerard got out-wrestled. It certainly must have been clear that Ganelon was no ordinary Shadow schmuck. It's a pity we aren't privy to more of Benedict's thought process.

4. When does Brand break the pattern? Why would he do it when he isn't attuned to the Jewel of Judgment? If Oberon was lured out by a hope of repairing the pattern, which was hinted at in some of the books, it had to be before Corwin's blinding. Yet his blinding was supposedly the opening Chaos needed for the black road. Huh? Isn't this a circular timing issue? Help! I must have something messed up here.

I don't think we can assume Corwin's curse made the Black Road possible. He blames himself for the Black Road, certainly, but he may just be being hard on himself, with the hindsight that, by the time he's recounting all this, he ended up not wanting to rule Amber quite so much after all.

I think it's more likely that Brand breaking the Pattern caused the Black Road, and Corwin's curse was sort of incidental, the timing not necessarily related. Perhaps Brand made use of Eric's coronation and Corwin's blinding as a handy distraction to slip away to the Primal Pattern and ruin it, though. Considering his unusual powers and the Amberites' apparent ignorance of the Primal Pattern at the time, though, he probably could have done that whenever he wanted with no one the wiser.

Really, the bigger question to me is how Fiona and Bleys kept Brand imprisoned if he already had his bizarre "living Trump" powers. (My prevailing theory is that Brand could have escaped whenever, but stayed voluntarily and made a show of being a prisoner. Both to keep the extent of his power secret from his captors, and to make a big, sympathetic scene out of being rescued from dire peril. I suppose if it ever came down to his word against Fiona's, this scenario would play better than Brand's having escaped the prison Shadow using unknown powers.)

[Evermasterx]

The more I learn and the more I realize that everything can be explain in different ways and you'll never be sure about nothing: the Amber Way! I love it.

[Arref]

1. Flora fails to get back to Amber in 9P.  Why doesn't she have a Trump of Amber?  Corwin later gets one from the library.  She is your contact in that shadow watching an important and powerful rival.  Don't you want her to be able to travel to you quickly?!?  She is also 'missing' some Trumps, which ones?

Not to start a 'talking bear' conversation, but so many things Florimel is telling Corwin when he finds her have to be false.

She allows Corwin to find some cards she doesn't need. They aren't even hers.  She gives Corwin the challenge and means to go to Amber. She waves her hands and talks about not being able to go herself.  Flora cons Corwin from word one.

She's already talking to Eric. She's valuable to Eric. She can get to Amber any time she wants.

2.  15 Princes of Amber, 6 dead – Corwin in 9PinA Huh? Benedict, Osric, Finndo, Eric, Corwin, Bleys, Brand, Caine, Julian, Gerard, Random, Delwin makes 12, with 2 dead (Osric and Finndo).  Who are the 3 other dead brothers (he heard incorrectly that Benedict was dead so that might be the inconsistency 4 dead)?  Or is this from his brain damage?  Or is it because he is telling the story later to Merlin?  That would add in Merlin and Martin and Brand would be dead making 3 dead brothers.  Still the math doesn't add up.

Really it isn't supposed to add up.  This is a combination of GM laying down narrative for later use and Zelazny putting down fence posts for later use. Basically Corwin is repeating something he learned as a kid. He never even met Osric, Finndo, or many of Oberon's kids born long ago.

3. 8 Princesses of Amber, 2 dead possibly 4 – Corwin in 9PinA
Again Huh?  Deirdre, Fiona, Llewlla, Florimel (Flora), Coral {from Merlin Cycle, would Corwin know about her?],  Sand [Another from Merlin Cycle].  If it is just the Corwin cycle ones then that is only 4.   I think Sand he would know but not Coral who wasn't even sure herself.  That would be 5 what about the other 3?  Maybe they are unimportant to the succession so left out?  

Yep. See above.  Lots of fun.

4.  When does Brand break the pattern?  Why would he do it when he isn't attuned to the Jewel of Judgment?  If Oberon was lured out by a hope of repairing the pattern, which was hinted at in some of the books, it had to be before Corwin's blinding.  Yet his blinding was supposedly the opening Chaos needed for the black road.  Huh?  Isn't this a circular timing issue?  Help!  I must have something messed up here.

Corwin's curse is ONE element of things spinning out of control. Naturally Corwin thinks he's the one responsible for everything. Brand stabs Martin as a means of opening the Pattern to reworking. Martin has been hiding for years when Corwin returns.

5.  Did Benedict know about being able to shapeshift?  Could he have guessed that Ganeleon was Oberon when he fought Gerard?  Or could Oberon have revealed himself to him?

Count on it.

6. Could Brand have traversed the Logrus?

Based on everything we see or surmise about Brand....he doesn't seem to have needed the Logrus. I also have a hard time imagining the Chaos guys trusting Brand with the Logrus....especially considering they were planning on destroying Amber....which Brand most certainly did not agree with.

8. When did Dworkin start acting 'mad'?  Or was it just because his motives were so far above the 9 princes that they could not fathom them.  Now he might not seem so mad because they have more perspective and are more 'Amberite'

Corwin makes a comment in passing that Oberon had looked through shadow long ago for 'healers' to address certain health issues with Dworkin.  I'm thinking head doctors here.

Maybe someone can find that specific passage.

[alcmarauder]

Ok I think that the Flora as master manipulator who sets Corwin in the right direction has some strength to it.  If that is her secondary deck a lot of things make more sense.  Why wouldn't she take the deck with her on her travels anyway?  The anger she shows that he found them is just for show. Ok that could explain a few things better.  Also who is to say she didn't actually get there?  Why would she say she had gotten there?  When a lie suits her better. Hmmm.....

Actually the Demons in The Guns of Avalon  (or was it The Hand of Oberon?) name Corwin as 'The Opener'.  So the forces of Chaos think that he opened the way.  

I think the 'Living Trump' was actually a series of things and he was given the powers in stages.  After being rescued he recieved another dose upping his power even more.  But possibly it took him time to adjust to the new powers.  But there are things that block trumps, (Luke's Blue stone Cave and the keep of the 4 worlds come to mind.)  Surely Fiona or Bleys could shadow walk to such a place.  Now getting Brand there would be trickier.  The power of everyone together was enough to punch through the resistance however suggesting it was some magical protection rather than situational.

I had the feeling that the doctors came after the damage to the pattern.  Perhaps he felt if he could get through part of the damage in Dworkin's mind he would think of a solution to the rest of the damage.  

You are assuming that all Chaosians are on the same side.  Maybe one faction thought the benifits of a Logrus initiate (that Suhuy could see through) would be worth the risk of his increased knowledge of Chaos.  Also could he have done it if he wanted too?  Could he get to it?  Could he survive if he did it?  Would he have sufficient motive to make the attempt?  (In Bendicort's admitedly flawed series some of Dworkin's and Oberon's relatives did not survive the Logrus.  Possibly because the pattern was manifesting in them?)

If he was taught it as a child then could it be true?  Did Zelazny drop a hint of earlier times here that he later decided were too much for the story?  If so why didn't he revise it in newer editions?  Especially when he wrote contridictory things later.  

Here is a thought, what if Oberon had his earlier children go and create their own Patterns after a certain amount of personal development.  "There is nothing more for you here.  Go create your own Pattern."  The 'Grand Design' that Dworkin describes is not a single pattern but a series of Patterns that will withstand even the destruciton of the Primal Pattern.  Osric and Findo were not satisfied with this, they wanted to rule in Amber not their own universe.  The biggest hole in this is that The Courts of Chaos would know of the creation of new patterns, or at least Suhuy would.  But why would they ever say anything about them to the characters we have followed?  Also with the rapid time flow the people who knew of it may not have passed it on before they died.  Maybe Merlin would learn of them when he became King of Chaos?  Hmmm.... just some thoughts. LOL

[Eon Raven]

This thread caught my eye. There are so many awesome questions in here. I will throw in my two cents on the very first. With luck I can come back and finish reading the other questions here.

Thank you for posting this.

NPIA

1) (chapter 6); Caine; "I'll be satisfied to serve the winner. That regency should be nice. I'd still like Random's head as part of the price, though"
Why do you suppose he hates Random so??? thoughts?

My answer: I agree with the Random growing up as a brat concept. Also, Caine always knew more than he was letting on. Perhaps he knew something of Random no one else knew as he did. This also gives depth to the family idea...That there is a story to all characters even though NPIA was from Corwin's POV.

2) Corwin: "Of Shadow I have this to say;there is Shadow and there is Substance, and this is the root of all things. Of Substance, there is only Amber, the real city, upon the real Earth, which contains everything."
Which contains everything...

Answer: "Contains everything"... This could be a POV concept. It contains everything to Corwin. Just as people say, "My S.O. means everything to me." They does not mean literally: My S.O. is also a plane, train, cup, cloud, atom, alien, nightmare, etc... It simply means, "everything worth loving". Perhaps Corwin is just saying, "everything worth loving" or "everything worth having substance".

3) Corwin, before pulling out Bleys' Trump; "I dried my hands on my cloak as I spoke and wiped them carefully, as I'd hate to smudge a work of art."
wiping blood from the battle I believe... sounds as if this may affect trump somehow? or just poetic verbage?

Answer: There are many possible answers to this one. There is no knowing if Corwin knew of Blood Trumps at this time (or if he does now)...But... He is aware that blood will dry on things...almost anything... So perhaps he did not know the workings of trumps (just how to work them) and with that thought that dried blood on a trump would ruin it.  It's only polite after all.  

4) As Corwin threw his trump to Bleys, as Bleys fell, who's Trump do you suppose he used?

Answer: Fiona. (Long story here, I think someone captured it well before).

5) Corwin, after escaping the dungeon: "Troubled by dreams of werewolves and Sabbats, I slept, and the full moon rose above the world."
Did Eric have anything to do with his nightmare, being he controls the weir?

Answer: Ohhh Good one. I just like this question...  So many good possibilities.  Typical dream analysis suggests possible: Werewolves are a changing breed.  Perhaps it was a reflection of Corwin being chased by the changes occurring with in himself. He may not like what he is becoming. Maybe to him it is monstrous.  

I am unaware of Sabbat "creatures". They are holidays. I don't think that the WOD comes into play here...  

So troubled by Sabbats (holidays)... Corwin may fear that there will be no peace.

This is typical dream analysis though. Always more to AMBER though, yes? Or is there??

6) Corwin; "I had set sail for a land near as sparkling as Amber itself, an almost immortal place, a place that did not really exist, not any longer.It was a place that vanishes into Chaos ages ago."
Did Chaos itself take over Avalon??

Answer: Look at the real life "idea" behind Avalon. It is a place of FAERIE and MYTH etc...  To many the Fae and all these features are "CHAOTIC" and were removed from our own REALITY behind the Mists to save our sanity.

Also, remember as above...Corwin sees only Amber as THE place of reality. To him...maybe everything else is just Chaos. And without him there to "own" Avalon it fell in to the disarray that the reflection of Chaos shines on any Shadow. Hmmm?

I enjoyed these questions so much. Thank you again OP for the post. And thank you everyone for your awesome concepts.  Everyone is correct in their own versions of AMBER...  May all your games be enhanced by these new and wonderful ideas.