Partial powers -- or not? And: Why?

[Norbert G. Matausch]

Guys,
I'm sure this question has popped up pretty often. Still, since my search fu seems to be weak today, let me ask you this:

What category of powers do you use in your campaigns? Partial powers (as suggested by many Amber GMs) or the Wujcik-like full powers (as suggested in the ADRPG rulebook)? Why?

Personally, I prefer full powers, simply because they stimulate my players' creativity ("What happens if I do... this?" ). I've tried partial powers but they feel too artificial and rigid to me.

[Evermasterx]

Guys,
I'm sure this question has popped up pretty often. Still, since my search fu seems to be weak today, let me ask you this:

What category of powers do you use in your campaigns? Partial powers (as suggested by many Amber GMs) or the Wujcik-like full powers (as suggested in the ADRPG rulebook)? Why?

Personally, I prefer full powers, simply because they stimulate my players' creativity ("What happens if I do... this?" ). I've tried partial powers but they feel too artificial and rigid to me.

I use full powers for my players too. I prefer to stick to the Wujcik vision as much as I can, otherwise I'm not playing his game. If someone doesn't have the points to get a power, they receive a lot of bad stuff which simulate the lack of control on that power. You can give the player a lot of hints telling him that he's not mature for the power (the magnitudo is based on how many points he lacks): it is his choice to go on or not.
Allowing partial powers, in my opinion, is like a mathematician who knows calculus, but not tensors: this can't be for a professional.

[jibbajibba]

in actual play partial powers are better for a host of reasons.

i) XP
ii) creativity at character creation
iii) extending powers in new directions whilst maintain the concept of 'you get what you pay for'
iv) Emulation of the books , with Caine spying on trumps but not having Trump Artistry
v) the classic "pc with 5 good stuff walks the pattern do they suddenly have -45 bad stuff ?" that changes the whole character
vi) Introducing new powers

I don't buy the Eric wrote it that way so RAW are gospel (I have a skill system as well )


My partial Power trees are open ended and not published to the players they have to choose the path they go down and we extend the power in the direction they want to travel. Want to have a skil that allows you to trail a walker through shadow sure ... want a skill that hides your trail from someone that has that power .... etc etc


Sample -

Broken Pattern:

10   Imprint
    5   Shadow walking
       5   Hellriding
              5  Search for Items/Creatures of Power
              5  Search for Shadow of Desire
       5   Broken Pattern Lens/Broken Pattern Defense (only versus magic)
              5   Broken Pattern Tendrils
              5   Spell Rack (named and numbered, decay is hours to days)

[Evermasterx]

in actual play partial powers are better for a host of reasons.

i) XP
ii) creativity at character creation
iii) extending powers in new directions whilst maintain the concept of 'you get what you pay for'
iv) Emulation of the books , with Caine spying on trumps but not having Trump Artistry
v) the classic "pc with 5 good stuff walks the pattern do they suddenly have -45 bad stuff ?" that changes the whole character
vi) Introducing new powers

I don't buy the Eric wrote it that way so RAW are gospel (I have a skill system as well )


My partial Power trees are open ended and not published to the players they have to choose the path they go down and we extend the power in the direction they want to travel. Want to have a skil that allows you to trail a walker through shadow sure ... want a skill that hides your trail from someone that has that power .... etc etc


Sample -

Broken Pattern:

10   Imprint   5   Shadow walking       5   Hellriding            5  Search for Items/Creatures of Power                5  Search for Shadow of Desire       5   Broken Pattern Lens/Broken Pattern Defense (only versus magic)             5   Broken Pattern Tendrils              5   Spell Rack (named and numbered, decay is hours to days)

Dear Jibbajibba, we walk definitely in different shadows...

[Norbert G. Matausch]

Dear Jibbajibba,

partial powers, skill system... I have to agree with Evermasterx: you're walking different shadows

[Evermasterx]

Dear Jibbajibba,

partial powers, skill system... I have to agree with Evermasterx: you're walking different shadows

And Erick would say: "It's alright, Jibbajibba!"

[jibbajibba]

Dear Jibbajibba,

partial powers, skill system... I have to agree with Evermasterx: you're walking different shadows

Don't knock it til you've tried it

[Norbert G. Matausch]

I have tried it, Jib. And haven't liked it.

[jibbajibba]

I have tried it, Jib. And haven't liked it.

No you haven't tried mine

I ran a game at Gen Con to 6 pretty hard core amber fans.

I used pregen characters with partial powers and my skill system.

The PCs bid for which character they wanted and for positions with authority.

Without an excpetion all the PCs loved it and even though they had started with 'a skill system ...wtf??' they all came out as converts.

As skill systems go its pretty light.... I have 30 in pilot x-wing, you have 25 so i am better than you... Wantto fly down that channel without hitting anything.... you don;t think you have the skill (GM has determeined that needs a skill of 30) . The guy with 25 skill crashes ....
Most of the time it works by comparison as with most of Amber its about competion.

Just to take a sample in your games if 2 PCs are engaged in a horse race say Oberon has offered a price to the winner of a race. How do you determine the outcome? How do you determione who is hte best horseman? How about a poetry competition? or a challenge to produce the most evocative sculpture?

When the PCs discover a body in the forest how do you feed them clues about the crime scene? When they are running from a half dozen blue skined guys through the back streets of of a post-cybertech Los Angeles how do you know if they know how to jury rig the police cyborg to turn against their pursuers.

A skill system does all of that and it cascades out of the background stories that all Amberite PCs have. 30 years as a corsair on the Seas of Glass, 40 years as a Battlemech pilot in the Solaran Free Company etc etc ... The skill system just formalises this and allows PCs to be the very best at something be that Robotics, Art, horseriding etc etc ...

As for Partial powers. It's just better

[Evermasterx]

No you haven't tried mine
...
As for Partial powers. It's just better

You are saying that your game is better than that of Wujcik. I'm saying that I want to play his game, not your, because for me the most free-form it is, the less rules there are, the better it is: for my taste, clearly. Don't say your game is better, say your game is better for you

[jibbajibba]

You are saying that your game is better than that of Wujcik. I'm saying that I want to play his game, not your, because for me the most free-form it is, the less rules there are, the better it is: for my taste, clearly. Don't say your game is better, say your game is better for you

Well in my Gen con game I never opened the rule book once in a 5 hour game. Some players tried to use powers in ways that was not possible in my flavour of Amber (changing the nature of shadow dwellers) or tried to make changes in a shadow that to me would result in a shift to another shadow. I ruled it immediately with no issues.
So ... pretty rules light I would say.
In many ways partial powers assist here as its clearer what players can do. This is not a restriction to creativity because as I allow you to develop any partial you like in side a power tree so infact the powers each PC possesses are all different and all vary from the standard so they are all unique.

However when I moved to partial powers it was really in answer to the XP issue and the what if I walk the pattern now will I end up with 45 points of bad stuff ?

As for Erick's Amber. The strength of Erick's Amber is you can change it to fit your own style and choices and I find these changes work for me largley because they clarify things for players and remove the requirement for me to create ad hoc rules on the fly.

If you can explain how you deal with each of the situations I site in my example in a consistent manner then great. I hate the idea that your ability to crack a cypher depends on your Warfare nearly as much as I hate the idea that an Amberite with High Warfare always expects there to be an invisible spy with a dagger round the next corner and so takes steps to avoid them as a matter of course.
If you don't care about that stuff in your games then also great. Its Your Amber you run it as you see fit.

[Norbert G. Matausch]

In many ways partial powers assist here as its clearer what players can do. This is not a restriction to creativity because as I allow you to develop any partial you like in side a power tree so infact the powers each PC possesses are all different and all vary from the standard so they are all unique.

We've been doing that ever since ADRPG came out, so I can see no advantage here. Plus, as I said, we tried it (more than once), and neither my players nor I liked it.

However when I moved to partial powers it was really in answer to the XP issue and the what if I walk the pattern now will I end up with 45 points of bad stuff ?

In my game, if the  character only had 5 XP, he would indeed get 45 Bad Stuff -- he'd simply have enormous problems understanding and using his newly acquired power. With time, this would get better and better (as the player would spend XP to reduce Bad Stuff).

Bad Stuff is a powerful tool. Some of the most memorable characters in our campaigns were the ones with obscene amounts of Bad Stuff.

[Evermasterx]

We've been doing that ever since ADRPG came out, so I can see no advantage here. Plus, as I said, we tried it (more than once), and neither my players nor I liked it.



In my game, if the  character only had 5 XP, he would indeed get 45 Bad Stuff -- he'd simply have enormous problems understanding and using his newly acquired power. With time, this would get better and better (as the player would spend XP to reduce Bad Stuff).

Bad Stuff is a powerful tool. Some of the most memorable characters in our campaigns were the ones with obscene amounts of Bad Stuff.

Totally subscribe.

[warp9]

Dear Jibbajibba, we walk definitely in different shadows...

Not me. From where I stand those concepts sound great!

[Lorrraine]

I dislike the formal partial powers structures where you get subpower x for 5 points since those lead to mini-maxing.

On the other hand, I do let players buy powers a bit at a time with the understanding that they don't reach full functionality with the power until they pay for it.

The difference- in my version the GM decides what the character can and can't do with a partially developed power. The player does not get to pick and choose,

This leads to players who will willingly develop a power over time rather than try to save up points then suddenly become experts once they have enough. Players definitely explore the ins and outs of a power as they develop it since they don't automatically know what they can and can't do or necessarily how to do it.

Also, I as GM don't have to deal with characters with massive amounts of bad stuff unless the players choose it.

Other GMs may treat 45 points of bad stuff differently than I do, but for me that can lead to some fairly horrendous developments. I don't want to make every character's life suck that badly because they walked the Pattern, unless the player wants that.

And on a sidenote, Amber has a fully functional skill system. Characters only have their full ability with the things they have actually learned to do. A character with first rank in warfare may have no idea how to pilot a starship if she has never used one before and unless she spends the time and effort to get good at it a character with a lower rank may outfly her for quite some time.

My PC in Cathy's Amber game has first rank in Warfare and very little combat ability because before the start of the campaign she had literally never gotten in a fight. Tempest (my PC) has amazing Parkour skillls, an innate grasp of strategy, fantastic computer skills, and a real knack for breaking and entering, but fighting not so much. Since the start of the campaign she has gotten fairly good with a gun and started studying martial arts, as well as learned to pilot a helicopter, but when a fight breaks out she still lets the other PCs do the majority of the work. Her biggest combat success to date, she caught a venomous rat without getting bit because she has plenty of experience dealing with animals both from growing up on a farm and dealing with another PC's fairly hostile cat.