Resolving "abuse" of sorcery

[Tamelorn]

I'm not really sure why folks are so keen to get lost in detail like that.  Doesn't it end up hiding the important things in the game, given the particular setting?

'Should a well prepared sorcerer be able to cast a spell that kills a high warfare character?'

To me, that's a question that's not so much about how prepared the sorceror is.  Think of it as akin to saying whether or not someone with a big arsenal, a gatling gun or a decent sized battalion of trained fighters would.  It's not about the spell, the gun, or the crew, it is about how many mistakes or poor choices the high Warfare player makes dealing with you, and how few mistakes and how many wonderful choices you make in return.

Corwin didn't defeat Benedict with the crawly-grass because it was a wonderful advantage, it was because his very-decent-Warfare let him craft possibilities for Benedict to make key mistakes, and he took advantage of one... to flee.

To me, any PC that's focusing on the bigger gun or nastier spell as a way to win is just the sort of person a high-Warcraft person is best at defeating - they put all their focus on the tool, not the hand wielding it or the mind behind the hand.

[jibbajibba]

I'm not really sure why folks are so keen to get lost in detail like that.  Doesn't it end up hiding the important things in the game, given the particular setting?

'Should a well prepared sorcerer be able to cast a spell that kills a high warfare character?'

To me, that's a question that's not so much about how prepared the sorceror is.  Think of it as akin to saying whether or not someone with a big arsenal, a gatling gun or a decent sized battalion of trained fighters would.  It's not about the spell, the gun, or the crew, it is about how many mistakes or poor choices the high Warfare player makes dealing with you, and how few mistakes and how many wonderful choices you make in return.

Corwin didn't defeat Benedict with the crawly-grass because it was a wonderful advantage, it was because his very-decent-Warfare let him craft possibilities for Benedict to make key mistakes, and he took advantage of one... to flee.

To me, any PC that's focusing on the bigger gun or nastier spell as a way to win is just the sort of person a high-Warcraft person is best at defeating - they put all their focus on the tool, not the hand wielding it or the mind behind the hand.

I think we are in agreement, moreorless, but the point here is if the high warfare guy makes no mistakes he is litterally having a coffee on his verandah should some one be able to use a spell to vaporise him. There are parallels for sure a well placed bomb, infecting a shadow with a hyper virulent plague designed especially to home in on amber DNA, etc etc.

[Croaker]

It all depends on his degree of paranoia.

Compare this to the warfare abilities in the Amber book: As it says, not every character will want to devellop these and spend thier entires lives as if they could be attacked at any moment.

So, a high-warfare, no paranoia guy could die.

A high-warfare, more paranoid guy will make sure his position is unknown, or he's in a shadow that bloks magic, and there'll be safeguards, too.

[jibbajibba]

It all depends on his degree of paranoia.

Compare this to the warfare abilities in the Amber book: As it says, not every character will want to devellop these and spend thier entires lives as if they could be attacked at any moment.

So, a high-warfare, no paranoia guy could die.

A high-warfare, more paranoid guy will make sure his position is unknown, or he's in a shadow that bloks magic, and there'll be safeguards, too.

But surely what you are saying really isn't that the best warfare guy is hard to kill but the highest ranked paranoid guy is hard to kill:)

but even this is off topic. we come back to how tough should sorcery be?

[Tamelorn]

I think we are in agreement, moreorless, but the point here is if the high warfare guy makes no mistakes he is litterally having a coffee on his verandah should some one be able to use a spell to vaporise him. There are parallels for sure a well placed bomb, infecting a shadow with a hyper virulent plague designed especially to home in on amber DNA, etc etc.

Oh, that's an easy one for me in my campaigns.  Absolutely not.  The high Warfare PC gets plenty of warning, and 'relaxing on the veranda' is never a period of dangerous lapses in attention for them.

Stuff like that are at most significant annoyances for them, certainly disruptive of relaxing and enjoying the morning.

All that changes, of course, when you're talking about opponents that are close to their level in the arts of war.

I really have to go back to my tool analogy.  Sorcery's just a tool, and not a uniquely powerful one, at that.  It pales in comparison to real power.

[jibbajibba]

Oh, that's an easy one for me in my campaigns.  Absolutely not.  The high Warfare PC gets plenty of warning, and 'relaxing on the veranda' is never a period of dangerous lapses in attention for them.

Stuff like that are at most significant annoyances for them, certainly disruptive of relaxing and enjoying the morning.

All that changes, of course, when you're talking about opponents that are close to their level in the arts of war.

I really have to go back to my tool analogy.  Sorcery's just a tool, and not a uniquely powerful one, at that.  It pales in comparison to real power.

That is the line that is taken by Erick throughout the rule book. But if you look to the actual books I am not so sure.
I would argue in fact that Sorcery is really an enabler for the application of other powers. The effects of Pattern for example whilst being powerful at a high create the universe level on teh ground are pretty poor. Pattern takes time to use its slow and the changes it invokes at least at 'Standard' levels are relatively minor. Sorcery provides you with a whole arsenal of weapons which can have huge effects.
Merlin really is our only true test subject here. He has access to the whole gamut of powers. What does he use most to resolve combat situations , sorcery. Yes he has to be prepped but sorcery is his go to power. Is that becuase sorcery pales in comparison to pattern and logrus. I think not. Yes a logrus trendril or a pattern ward can block a spell but so can a spell based ward. Int eh books Merlin even uses Sorcery to teleport through shadow. Even front eh first books its sorcery that binds Brand in shadow. This being the brand that has a range of uber pattern and trump powers.
I think it presents some interesting conumdrums from a game perspective.
I can see why Erick wanted to down play sorcery> you don't want all the players to be merlin clones, if you did you could play ars magica or mage.
I would be really interested if anyone had done an analysis of the spells merlin uses in the 2nd series just to see

[gabriel_ss4u]

I'm goin' back to re-read the Merlin saga now.
only read it 1/2 as many times as the Corwin.
But I agree that sorcery, used properly can be highly effective in game-play.

[Croaker]

Yes, this is all the difference between handguns and nuclear weapons.

Sure, nuclear weapons are an awful lot more powerfull. But you'll probably use more guns than nuclear bombs.

Now, mastery in a power gives you both more raw power and more finesse with it.

[moritheil]

Sorcery is a hell of a lot sneakier than the "major powers."  In the intrigues of both Amber and Chaos, subtlety is very important.  Yes, maybe you can block just about anything with the Logrus - but what if you don't see it coming?  

I mean, you could say "a knife is vastly inferior to Greyswandir" but Caine almost kills Corwin with what is probably a very ordinary knife.  Sometimes it's not the degree of power; it's the application.  Amberites and Chaosites love to be sneaky, and as such, sorcery is useful to them.

[Stormwind]

@moritheil: I don't entirely agree with you there. I do agree that sorcery is a good tool for subtlety, but I don't believe that sorcery persay is inherently sneaky.

Consider a blaster type sorcerer for example, quite a valid use of sorcery and not at all subtle.
On the other hand consider someone with pattern who is skilled at probabiliity manipulation - lots of possibilities for very subtle manipulations there. Likewise, consider shapeshifting, again minor changes in the qualities (abilities from creatures of power) have the potential to be very subtle. With trump, consider trump spying. And Logrus, discreetly using it to bring in poisonous vapors for example.

The possibilities are limited only by the imagination of the player. All powers are capable of subtlety. Sorcery might be well suited to it due to its flexibility, but again that doesn't make the tool itself subtle.

[Tamelorn]

Sorcery is a hell of a lot sneakier than the "major powers."  In the intrigues of both Amber and Chaos, subtlety is very important.  Yes, maybe you can block just about anything with the Logrus - but what if you don't see it coming?  

I mean, you could say "a knife is vastly inferior to Greyswandir" but Caine almost kills Corwin with what is probably a very ordinary knife.  Sometimes it's not the degree of power; it's the application.  Amberites and Chaosites love to be sneaky, and as such, sorcery is useful to them.

Wouldn't say inherently sneakier - it's just not on many of the Elder Amberite's radar during the first set of books.  Like any other tool, the ones who know about it area always on the lookout, and it shows up wonderfully well when those with the real powers look for it.  The sneaky's just a temporary plot device for something added in the books later on.

[gabriel_ss4u]

I didn't read moritheil saying it was 'inherintly' sneaky. I think he is implying that it is a much more useful tool if used in secretive ways. Which I do agree with. Not to take away from the meteor strike masters out there, just that i too love the subtle uses of the maigck arts.

[jibbajibba]

Subtlety is hte Amber watchword. The most agressive spells I ahve ever cast as an Amber player were teleport other, reverse gravity or strength. But this applies to all powers and even items. So for example I had a player with a sword that had inteligence, Amber ranked warfare and Mould Shadow. This meant that in combat the sword would manipulate the environment whilst I was fighting to give me an edge, a loose flagstone, a pot of boling water on the stove I could toss at my oppoent. Yes it cost 12 points but much cooler than destructive damage :-) and it gave me someone to talk to on lonely trips. Of course the nbenefit was obviously counteracted by the bad stuff i had to take to get it but :-)