Magic, Technology, Items, and All That Jazz

[Brent Not Broken]

So this is a thing that strikes me as weird: magic and technology are sortakinda treated as two sides of the same coin. They're both a sort of shadow-local paradigm for innovation, they're both tracked independently from shadow to shadow (in the sense that each shadow can be classified in terms of how well magic and technology each work there), and they're both notoriously unreliable depending on where in the universe you are (in a way that Pattern, Logrus, and Trumps generally are not).

But the game treats them so very differently. For starters, there's an obvious way to make a character who is good at magic (buy high Psyche, powers like Sorcery and Conjuration and such, and probably be better-than-average at Logrus or Pattern), but there's really no way to make a character who is explicitly "good at technology", besides maybe dropping a couple of points on a home shadow that's "high-tech", grabbing a handful of technodoodads, and praying your gadgets don't fail when you need them in a foreign shadow.

Like, there's plenty of overlap in what you can do. If I need an emergency backup way to incapacitate someone, I can hang a sleepytimes spell with sorcery, or I can hide a taser in my pocket. One of these methods costs about 20 character points (and can be boosted by high Psyche, and can be adapted with a linchpin to essentially work anywhere magic exists); the other is free (and will probably be ignored by anyone with nontrivial Endurance, and you shouldn't take it too far from home). Is this how it's supposed to work, though?

I mean, if I'm building items and creatures with my stat points, maybe I want something to give me better information. So I design an enchanted amulet which is the home to a bodiless ancient knowledge spirit, and spend enough points on psychic ability for the item that as long as it's worn, the spirit sees through the wearer's eyes and can provide direct, mind-to-mind commentary. Or maybe I go high-tech, and build essentially the exact same artifact as a cybernetic in-brain implant that houses a friendly AI to act as a personal assistant. These two versions are basically the same thing for the same cost, but one is flavored as magic and the other is flavored as technology-- do they function the same way in-game? Is one more reliable than the other?

For a similar but simpler example, say I want a super-army with super-strength, so I buy a creature with super-strength and a high quantity multiplier. Does it matter whether I explain my soldiers' strength by saying "these are humans with gene-therapy, hormone boosting, and cyberware that pumps adrenaline from little canisters into their bloodstream" or "I went to some shadow were I recruited ogres that are naturally strong"? Is the former option more likely to fail in a far-off shadow because it's flavor describes it as technology-powered?

All I really want to figure out is an elegant way of saying what works and where.

[warp9]

For myself, I've always seen the Sorcery, Conjuration, item-rules, etc, listed in the book as different than tech or magic that exists off in Shadow.

As it says in the ShadowKnight rulebook: "Any Amberite could go off into Shadow and come up with a bulldozer (or even a bull) that could pull more weight than Gerard."

Whereas, in the main ADRPG rulebook, (on page 119) it states that "Exalted Vitality" gives strength on the level of Gerard, for 16 points, but that this is only an artifact quality that is limited to NPCs.

The artifact rules in the books are, as far as I can tell, more for building something like Frakir (which works anywhere), rather than building a star ship, or even a bulldozer. I'd say that a bulldozer's traits are simply natural to it (and thus don't cost points), rather than saying that its power comes from having "Exalted Vitality" (which is off limits to PCs anyway). And I'd put things like D&D magic, or the StarWars Force powers, or Harry Potter Magic, in the same category as the bulldozer.

For example, you can be a jedi knight for free, but your force powers will pretty much only work in your home universe.

[Panjumanju]

The setting of Amber is bias towards magic is only because Amber itself - as a place - is bias towards magic. There are more places where technology does not work than places where magic does not work in the Amber Universe. Otherwise, using the item creation rules as you've suggested offers no intrinsic difference between high technology (or weird science) and magic.

...rather than building a star ship, or even a bulldozer. I'd say that a bulldozer's traits are simply natural to it (and thus don't cost points), rather than saying that its power comes from having "Exalted Vitality" (which is off limits to PCs anyway).

I agree with this.

And really, it mostly becomes a moot point because if you have Pattern or Logrus you can just grab whatever technology you want out of shadow, regardless. It probably won't work for long and probably under controlled circumstances, but I've seen people use these disadvantages creatively and well.

//Panjumanju

[RPGPundit]

Yeah, the OP is starting from a false assumption: that magic and technology are equally significant forces in the multiverse.  They clearly aren't.

Magic is a form of power very distantly related to the primary forces of the multiverse: pattern, logrus and trump.  Technology isn't.  
So if you want to make technology work outside of its home shadow (or very similar shadows) you need to use magic to do it, not more technology.

RPGPundit

[Brent Not Broken]

Yeah, the OP is starting from a false assumption: that magic and technology are equally significant forces in the multiverse.  They clearly aren't.

Magic is a form of power very distantly related to the primary forces of the multiverse: pattern, logrus and trump.  Technology isn't.

I was getting all ready to argue these points with you, but then I did some checking and thought about it some more, and it turns out you're totally right. So my original post frames my questions poorly.

My confusion is partly an issue of "what objects work where?" and partly an issue of "what force powers the items you build with character points, and how do they actually work, really?" and partly an issue of "what is magic, and what is technology, and aren't they both related to just specialized applications of the local laws of reality governing the shadow you happen to be in?"

So I think I need some time to stew over these issues a bit before I can really formulate the question I need to ask.