Emerging onto a shadow

[Doughdee222]

Here's a subject I haven't seen covered before but I've been wondering how a seasoned Amber GM handles it. For lack of a better term lets call it "emergence."

Let's say my character is in Amber and needs to ride to shadow Earth, specifically New York City. When he arrives at Earth do I just say he emerges in NYC, say Central Park?
How about a month later my guy is back in Amber and again needs to go to Earth to interrogate someone in Chicago. He takes the same route to Earth but then... what? I just say I emerge in Chicago at the foot of the Sears Tower?
What if after a quick search I learn the guy I'm looking for took a plane to Paris, France. Which would be faster: get a passport and ticket and fly to Paris or leave the shadow, wander around for an hour and return emerging in Paris? Going from Chicago to Paris in an hour (on horseback!) via other shadows just seems wrong and odd to me. What if the guy is still on the airplane, or even a yacht, on his way to France. It seems really odd to emerge on Earth on the plane or boat (particularly if I'm on a horse.)
If it was a direct Teleport spell or Advanced Pattern travel I wouldn't have a problem with emergence. But shadow walking seems different to me.

What if the NPC I'm looking for is hiding in a castle surrounded by guards. The GM intends for me, or the group, to assault or sneak into the castle to get the guy. But one player gets the idea to go to a nearby shadow where the castle is abandoned, casually walk into the Grand Dining Hall, then shift/emerge into the target shadow's castle's dining hall. This sounds like cheating, somehow, to me. But theoretically it could work.

Have any of you GMs encountered these sorts of dilemmas?

(Then this gets into the whole question of what a shadow represents. It's a whole planet really. Even after emerging on the desired shadow how does one know where to begin to search for the wanted person or item or place? I'm guessing a whole lotta fudging goes on. Else you're going to get: "Yay, I'm on Earth, in New York City! Count Orlok is buried in a pyramid, now I just gotta find one. You, sir! Where's the nearest pyramid?")

[fuseboy]

What if the NPC I'm looking for is hiding in a castle surrounded by guards. The GM intends for me, or the group, to assault or sneak into the castle to get the guy. But one player gets the idea to go to a nearby shadow where the castle is abandoned, casually walk into the Grand Dining Hall, then shift/emerge into the target shadow's castle's dining hall. This sounds like cheating, somehow, to me. But theoretically it could work.

I think it's fine to let shadow be fairly mysterious - the only physicists of shadow are either insane, or keeping their secrets to themselves. Allow it to be a little dream-like.

The castle gambit is a great idea!  The only problem is that you have to walk to shift shadow (at least with basic pattern mastery).  To my mind there's something important about the vista changing and continuity, so doing laps in the grand dining hall isn't going to suddenly cause people to appear.  Pop!

I like to think of (again, normal) shifting shadow as being a little like probability.  If you're in a dining hall, walking around, what are the odds that someone just appears in the corner?  Pretty low.  What are the odds that someone's in the hallway beyond?  Well, that's a little more likely.

Walking around in the castle would be fine, although ultimately you're going to start meeting people if you're aiming for a populated shadow.  Also, if the target shadow inhabitants are hostile to the shifter, their 'nearby' shadows may be as well.

[Panjumanju]

The great equaliser in the Amber Diceless roleplaying system is Time.

You make shadow walking sound like it's really quick - but it could take months or even years to shadow walk from the Castle of Amber to New York. You're immortal - you can take the time. This is why travel by trump is much quicker and more convenient than shadow walking.

Another great thing is that locations and people are not always the same in each shadow - if you tried to get into a shadow where that castle is empty I, as a GM - well, first I would use time, frankly, but let's say I didn't - yes, you can go into the empty castle, but there's a shadow between the two where the castle is on fire.

The quicker you want to shadow walk, the more dangerous paths you take. Let players know they can get what they want, but the consequence is either going to be in time spend, or risk of personal danger.

Another great equaliser is that you can shadow walk to the destination of your heart's desire...even if you don't know it's your heart's desire. So, you can end up places that may be ultimately beneficial, even if you don't know why yet. Meaning: the GM can set up major obstacles in the way, and they can either be put there by other NPCs trying to make a barrier to the shadow, or the side-track is actually part of the PC's desire, even if they don't know why yet.

Also please note that you don't need to physically walk - you could be in a car or on a boat or whatever. In some cases it may be quicker to take a physical shadow sailing boat from New York to France rather than walking overland through Shadow and having to deal with all the obstacles that crop up on the way, that may or may not be related (heart's desire) to what is going on in the wider happening of the game. (Ripe with opportunity for the GM!)

The trump deck, so to speak, is stacked in the GM's favour.

//Panjumanju

[jibbajibba]

This is fundermental to how you run Amber games and it's a decision all GMs have to make for themselves.
Its like the Amber equivalent of how to handle super powers. Do you let the Flash launch a bag of ball-berrings at Mach 1 or do you argue its not emulative of genre.

This is how I handle it.

If you shadow travel you leave the shadow. So you can find a different shadow where the castle with no guards but its a different shadow so the guy you are lookign for is not inside.
If you are on shadow earth and want to get from NY to Paris, you can go for a drive out of the city and then come back to Paris, you can hell ride into a NY Subway tunnel and emerge on the Metro in the Gare de Nord. You can get on a flight and condense the journey time to a few minutes, of course you may as well go first class and enjoy a nice meal and a decent claret.
All of those options are fine but you must ahve been there. If you have never been to paris then the only way to get ther eis the long way (though condensing time on the flight is probably okay).
As I use partial powers, but the players choose what they are kind of, I woudl let a PC develop a shadow walking power that let them flex time , you coudl do it with other strandard of course.

As for the guarded castle, well like I said a castle without guards is another castle. If you knew the castle you could shadow walk right into the middle of it. Start in your own castle then make the arches a litle more Norman, the stone a little bluer, as you turn into this corridor its full of suits of armour, then the next turn has a blue carpet not red, the next door opens up into a dining room with a window looking out over the ocean etc etc ... But once you get near the castle I think Amberites act a bit like objects in Space creating their own gavity wells. Travellers that get close will be dragged into the Amberites presence like rocks floating through space.
You can avoid this through effort or you can develop the power to make those gravity wells bigger. A skilled Amberite could make their Avalon/Camalot/Lorraine the most dominant of all such shadows so anyone that asks for a similar shadow gets drawn into their orbit, that for me would be a really good example of a partial pattern power.

As with all such things review what the PC is trying to do and whether they have the correct powers to do it (another reason I use partial powers as this is then much easier) then adjudicate.

An Amberite walking into a guarded castle unobserved through shadow walking is harldy game shattering

[RTrimmer]

I'm with jibbajibba on this one.
'Magic Pattern, lead me there!' No, Magic Pattern says suck it up.

[RPGPundit]

Shadow-walking happens the way it does in the books; you go along changing a little detail here and there until you get what you want.

So the person travelling Amber-NYC would go along changing the details of things until he got to Central Park; presumably to get to Chicago he'd change other details.

Shadow-walking takes its time, and is not instantaneous like Trump is, but it is (in my games) a generally faster way to get around even within a shadow than just going conventionally (EXCEPT if you're talking about very short distances.  A person can probably run a couple of miles' distance faster than a guy could shadow-walk there; but a guy could shadow walk from NYC to Paris faster than someone could fly there by plane).

RPGPundit

[Artifacts of Amber]

I would allow it to work myself. provided these things.

The castle has no special protections preventing this, to me indicating these are just shadow folk with no Real power. And if they were but knew people could do these sorts of "Magical" things they would have some other nasty surprise waiting within their capabilities. Bombs, guards etc.

The person doing the walk would have to know were they are going, having seen the inside or something similar or else one shadow castle looks like pretty much any other except for some extremely small detail including the person they seek is not there.

To use a shadow of desire power requires some precision in my games which is controlled or judged by Psyche and experience. this is to get around the problem above of finding the right person.

I se shadow since it is infinite being a multitude of precise, thin layers. getting the exact one is hard most the time close enough is close enough for most shadow manipulations.

It's not, to me, so much "Magic Pattern" so much as using precision and smarts to get what you want. If you don't have them you can't do it.

Also what the Gm intended is largely irrelevant. I keep telling my players when I ask a question often I am not looking for The Answer so much as An Answer. They are having trouble with that at times.

[RTrimmer]

Exactly.
By 'Magic Pattern' I mean things like, shadow shift to a city you've never visited, to 'the answer to this mystery', to 'a book that details all my enemy's plans', and the like.
All crap I've seen players try.
Magic Pattern is sentient, omniscient and it loves to do all the work for lazy Amberites. Must be fattening them up.
If an Amberite tells the Pattern to send her where she should be, in my games, nothing happens unless Dworkin is paying attention. If he is, it becomes a teaching opportunity or a straight line, or both.

[Croaker]

If an Amberite tells the Pattern to send her where she should be, in my games, nothing happens unless Dworkin is paying attention. If he is, it becomes a teaching opportunity or a straight line, or both.

First, is the pattern sentient or not?

If yes, this is asking for trouble, akin to "where to you want me to toil for you, mistress?"

If not, it's just the character's unconscious talking. He could end up in his bed, or in trouble, if he's got a deathwish.

[RTrimmer]

I ran a game with sentient powers once. Once was enough.

[Croaker]

:lol:

Your topic name made me think of something, though.

Say, you've got an Amberite in central park. And another amberite, shadowalking through parks, comes from shadow to meet it.

How does the second amberite appears, both to the first and (incidentally) to shadow dwellers?

[Artifacts of Amber]

Croaker

That is what I thought about the title as well.

Exit into a shadow, to me, depends on the travel type.

Walk in shadow you just fade into view often so subtle most people wouldn't notice. With another shadow walker noticing dependent on Warfare or psyche if not actively looking.

Royal way - Depends on the shadow but usually the sudden appearance would not be noticed r be something expected since everything should be as the Walker wants it to be, so depends on the shadow walkers preferences.

Hellrides - Are usually a pop into a shadow with a sudden screeching halt if this is the shadow they were seeking. Much more noticeable then any other shadow walking way.

I usually say people legends of ghost or other paranormal phenomenon could be glimpses of shadow walkers as they fade into and out a shadow while walking. I would think form the outside observer that may be what it seems like, a sort of after image of the passage.

just my thoughts.

[Arref]

Here's a subject I haven't seen covered before but I've been wondering how a seasoned Amber GM handles it. For lack of a better term lets call it "emergence."

Let's say my character is in Amber and needs to ride to shadow Earth, specifically New York City. When he arrives at Earth do I just say he emerges in NYC, say Central Park?
How about a month later my guy is back in Amber and again needs to go to Earth to interrogate someone in Chicago. He takes the same route to Earth but then... what? I just say I emerge in Chicago at the foot of the Sears Tower?
What if after a quick search I learn the guy I'm looking for took a plane to Paris, France. Which would be faster: get a passport and ticket and fly to Paris or leave the shadow, wander around for an hour and return emerging in Paris? Going from Chicago to Paris in an hour (on horseback!) via other shadows just seems wrong and odd to me. What if the guy is still on the airplane, or even a yacht, on his way to France. It seems really odd to emerge on Earth on the plane or boat (particularly if I'm on a horse.)
If it was a direct Teleport spell or Advanced Pattern travel I wouldn't have a problem with emergence. But shadow walking seems different to me.

What if the NPC I'm looking for is hiding in a castle surrounded by guards. The GM intends for me, or the group, to assault or sneak into the castle to get the guy. But one player gets the idea to go to a nearby shadow where the castle is abandoned, casually walk into the Grand Dining Hall, then shift/emerge into the target shadow's castle's dining hall. This sounds like cheating, somehow, to me. But theoretically it could work.

Have any of you GMs encountered these sorts of dilemmas?

(Then this gets into the whole question of what a shadow represents. It's a whole planet really. Even after emerging on the desired shadow how does one know where to begin to search for the wanted person or item or place? I'm guessing a whole lotta fudging goes on. Else you're going to get: "Yay, I'm on Earth, in New York City! Count Orlok is buried in a pyramid, now I just gotta find one. You, sir! Where's the nearest pyramid?")

Great question!

The books give some very good "flavor bits" for doing these sort of arrivals or 'emergence' moments.

Zelazny shows Random using an airplane flight to try and lose trackers on his way to Corwin. Obviously then you can move in and out of a shadow in making a long speedy trip to visit a friend, especially if you know the destination well.

Also Zelazny comments about 'sparkle' and 'ghost riders' for some faster sequences of moving in and out of shadow.

Random also uses nearby shadows to get around 'obstacles' that he thinks Eric has put in his path to Amber. Sometimes this fails, because Random believes that Eric has managed the obstacle right into a "choke point" where it is easier to go through it than around it.

Your own flavor of shadow topography will become part of your own GM-ing chores.

If the PC has never been to shadow Earth NYC, then odds of finding it on the first go are slim. Possibly even difficult depending on if what you seek is Important or if the action is Opposed.  You could search a thousand New Yorks before you found the defining element that needs you to be in NYC. Or, Family could already be near to there and you are drawn off course into a meeting with that Family member.

General rule of thumb: 'emergence' is safe and natural.

Reason?: because skill with Pattern keeps the Amber PC safe unless they are actively doing something risky or desperate.

So you do not arrive in a flash of light in NYC while cops are searching the block for criminals. Instead, you arrive in a suit, carry a briefcase, with nothing to call attention to your arrival because that alley you walked out of was shadowed by buildings and a large dumpster.   This feature of shadow walking is related to 'shadows lie for me'.

In fact, you have a wallet in your jacket with plenty of papers that make your presence very very normal. ?Never been to NYC before? Well, that doesn't matter. It is probable that you will not draw attention if you have some basic experience with Pattern.

What if you find the guy you're looking for used to be in NYC, but went to Paris a couple years ago? Your information seems to be out of date. But wait.... you are doing well because you seem to have the right shadow!

Now it is up to the PC.  Do they chance losing this guy again by walking back into shadow? Do they go with the sure thing and buy the plane trip to Paris?  What if there are only steamships to Paris?  Players might balk if the GM tells them it is a month to Paris.

But the month trip may not mean anything compared to losing the stalk by not being able to find the 'right Paris' if you move back into shadow.

Experienced PC's can indeed use the 'empty castle in the next shadow' gambit in my games. However, they have to be canny about it.

As your question shows, 'emergence' can help you....or it can trip you up so you do not find what you want.  Let the PCs define what degree of safety and what degree of overt pursuit they want as flavor. That gives you (the GM) a handle on the risk to express in results.

[RPGPundit]

I don't think your stuff changes automatically as you shift shadow, though you can consciously change it.

As for emergence, I always have it that you emerge in such a way that you appear from around a corner, out of some trees, etc. so that it doesn't draw attention to yourself; except if you're hellriding.

Of course, how you look or what you do right after appearing certainly might draw attention to yourself.

[RTrimmer]

I'm fine with Pattern users shifting their clothes and such consciously, like Random does on the way from Earth to Amber. Emerge, see what other people are wearing, adjust things.

I have a strong aversion to shadowshifting =  the all-knowing Pattern Nanny smoothing over every difficulty: taking care of things the Amberite has no personal knowledge of, like ID, credit cards and such. They're Amberites, they don't need no stinking nannies.