Emerging onto a shadow

[RPGPundit]

I'm fine with Pattern users shifting their clothes and such consciously, like Random does on the way from Earth to Amber. Emerge, see what other people are wearing, adjust things.

I have a strong aversion to shadowshifting =  the all-knowing Pattern Nanny smoothing over every difficulty: taking care of things the Amberite has no personal knowledge of, like ID, credit cards and such. They're Amberites, they don't need no stinking nannies.

Yeah, I agree, it makes things too easy on the PCs, and in Amber a lot of the fun is NOT making things too easy on the PCs.

RPGPundit

[Taewakan]

The issue is only an issue when you are crossing paths with other initiates of the major powers.

Shadow creatures are exactly that - shadow creatures. Why avoid the guards when you can shift them to believe they are part of a secret society that thinks you are a god? Sama-samo for the normal human being guarded in a normal castle. If a 4 point artifact creature can shift shadow people, then a basic Pattern or Logrus initiate should be able to do the same thing, yes?

Add an Elder or a powerful NPC (or PC for that matter) to the mix and life gets more interesting.

[RTrimmer]

Sure, in the game as written by Wujcik.
In the stories written by RZ, not so much. Very little reworking of people with powers happens there. Their disdain of shadow folk isn't really any worse than that of many of the various ruling classes, now and in the past, towards those at the bottom. Corwin became quite attached to a camp follower. Benedict was willing to kill a brother whom he thought had killed his servants. Random and Fiona sought out Bill Roth for advice on the treaty with Chaos.

The Wujcikian take results in an incest-ridden Amber and Chaos with f**k tons of new Elders and Youngers since Shadow is a worthless infinity of less-than-insects, and your players need someone real to interact with.

What a waste of infinite shadow.

The issue is only an issue when you are crossing paths with other initiates of the major powers.

Shadow creatures are exactly that - shadow creatures. Why avoid the guards when you can shift them to believe they are part of a secret society that thinks you are a god? Sama-samo for the normal human being guarded in a normal castle. If a 4 point artifact creature can shift shadow people, then a basic Pattern or Logrus initiate should be able to do the same thing, yes?

Add an Elder or a powerful NPC (or PC for that matter) to the mix and life gets more interesting.

[RTrimmer]

Oops.
Hit 'post' instead of 'preview'.
That's frequently results in...

[warp9]

I don't think your stuff changes automatically as you shift shadow, though you can consciously change it.

In the books, that seemed almost like a "style thing" with Random (meaning that it was a bigger part of Random's personal style to shift his stuff).

When Random drove to Amber in the first book, their stuff changed (his stuff and Corwin's stuff both). We also hear about that same effect in the 3rd book, where Random is recounting his experiences that he had while trying to save Brand from the tower.

Even though we hear a whole lot more about Corwin's experiences shifting Shadow, he almost never makes use of that effect. The only time that I can remember is when he mentioned shifting his vehicles, during the second book, as he was leading his newly armed troops to Amber.

[RTrimmer]

The only mention of directly influencing people that I can think of is in NPiA when Flora said she'd decided her maid wouldn't open the door to Random's pursuers -- but the maid opened it anyway. If Random could do it he would have simply altered his pursuers' attitudes while riding his floating boulder.

In the books, that seemed almost like a "style thing" with Random (meaning that it was a bigger part of Random's personal style to shift his stuff).

When Random drove to Amber in the first book, their stuff changed (his stuff and Corwin's stuff both). We also hear about that same effect in the 3rd book, where Random is recounting his experiences that he had while trying to save Brand from the tower.

Even though we hear a whole lot more about Corwin's experiences shifting Shadow, he almost never makes use of that effect. The only time that I can remember is when he mentioned shifting his vehicles, during the second book, as he was leading his newly armed troops to Amber.

[warp9]

The only mention of directly influencing people that I can think of is in NPiA when Flora said she'd decided her maid wouldn't open the door to Random's pursuers -- but the maid opened it anyway. If Random could do it he would have simply altered his pursuers' attitudes while riding his floating boulder.

That is all true enough. I was simply referring to altering clothing and equipment.

However, the thing with the maid and Random's pursuers is somewhat tied together. After having to actually stop the maid from opening the door (despite Flora's insistence that the maid would not open it), Random said: "that shows the strength of the opposition" indicating to me that they were not dealing with ordinary Shadow folk. This fact correlates to the idea the Random could not alter the pursuers as he could with normal shadow people.

That being said, one other thing is pretty clear. Over the course of the first 5 novels, there were plenty of good opportunities for Corwin to use his powers to directly influence the shadow people, yet he never seemed to do so (at least not that I can remember).

[RTrimmer]

And Flora was trying to influence her maid, in her home, on Earth. Where, since she'd been monitoring Corwin for almost 200 years without him noticing, she'd logically developed lot of preternatural influence.

Or consider: Jewel-wielding Eric should have simply taken Bleys' army from him.  

That is all true enough. I was simply referring to altering clothing and equipment.

However, the thing with the maid and Random's pursuers is somewhat tied together. After having to actually stop the maid from opening the door (despite Flora's insistence that the maid would not open it), Random said: "that shows the strength of the opposition" indicating to me that they were not dealing with ordinary Shadow folk. This fact correlates to the idea the Random could not alter the pursuers as he could with normal shadow people.

That being said, one other thing is pretty clear. Over the course of the first 5 novels, there were plenty of good opportunities for Corwin to use his powers to directly influence the shadow people, yet he never seemed to do so (at least not that I can remember).

[Taewakan]

And Flora was trying to influence her maid, in her home, on Earth. Where, since she'd been monitoring Corwin for almost 200 years without him noticing, she'd logically developed lot of preternatural influence.

Or consider: Jewel-wielding Eric should have simply taken Bleys' army from him.

This is where the original normal shadow creature costing nothing comes into play - a horde multiple for a zero point human soldier is still zero points AND the horde is still Bleys' i.e. as unchangeable by another as Random's and Corwin's pursuers were, JoJ wielding or not.

As for Flora influencing her maid, this is where the arrogance of Amberites is apparent. If it was me, the maid wouldn't have been a bought creature. I mean, if you can automatically influence a lesser creature with your will or intent, why spend points on it? (Flora didn't spend points on her maid... Or didn't want her brothers to think that she had!) Any given horse, er, maid will do... Right up to the point where they run into a shadow-creature/artifact that can shift shadow creatures too.
Oops.

Flora always struck me as being hugely underestimated by Corwin. Kinda like the way people think about Norma Jean. To a player I would say that isn't even an Oops. It is a tsk-tsk. Same to Corwin and his siblings. How many of us have seen the poor little rich girl role played so well, Britney?
I'm just sayin'.

[jibbajibba]

This is where the original normal shadow creature costing nothing comes into play - a horde multiple for a zero point human soldier is still zero points AND the horde is still Bleys' i.e. as unchangeable by another as Random's and Corwin's pursuers were, JoJ wielding or not.

As for Flora influencing her maid, this is where the arrogance of Amberites is apparent. If it was me, the maid wouldn't have been a bought creature. I mean, if you can automatically influence a lesser creature with your will or intent, why spend points on it? (Flora didn't spend points on her maid... Or didn't want her brothers to think that she had!) Any given horse, er, maid will do... Right up to the point where they run into a shadow-creature/artifact that can shift shadow creatures too.
Oops.

Flora always struck me as being hugely underestimated by Corwin. Kinda like the way people think about Norma Jean. To a player I would say that isn't even an Oops. It is a tsk-tsk. Same to Corwin and his siblings. How many of us have seen the poor little rich girl role played so well, Britney?
I'm just sayin'.

Just as an aside I never let any PC buy anything for 0 cost. I impose a minimum base cost of 1.

[RTrimmer]

Um, really "unchangeable by another"? Corwin and Random killed them right quick. Why is that different from alteration via powers?

Bleys didn't summon the army -- He called them up from multiple versions of Avernus -- like you can, in the rules, for things that are paid for. Probably not bought.

And paid for A&Cs aren't indestructible, you just get them back later if killed/broken... and I'd add 'mind controlled', 'zapped by a Power' and 'tricked' to that list.  Otherwise they're 8-point+ resistant to Psyche, for free. YMMV.

What's the multiplier for 250,000 anyway?

This is where the original normal shadow creature costing nothing comes into play - a horde multiple for a zero point human soldier is still zero points AND the horde is still Bleys' i.e. as unchangeable by another as Random's and Corwin's pursuers were, JoJ wielding or not.

As for Flora influencing her maid, this is where the arrogance of Amberites is apparent. If it was me, the maid wouldn't have been a bought creature. I mean, if you can automatically influence a lesser creature with your will or intent, why spend points on it? (Flora didn't spend points on her maid... Or didn't want her brothers to think that she had!) Any given horse, er, maid will do... Right up to the point where they run into a shadow-creature/artifact that can shift shadow creatures too.
Oops.

Flora always struck me as being hugely underestimated by Corwin. Kinda like the way people think about Norma Jean. To a player I would say that isn't even an Oops. It is a tsk-tsk. Same to Corwin and his siblings. How many of us have seen the poor little rich girl role played so well, Britney?
I'm just sayin'.

[jibbajibba]

Um, really "unchangeable by another"? Corwin and Random killed them right quick. Why is that different from alteration via powers?

Bleys didn't summon the army -- He called them up from multiple versions of Avernus -- like you can, in the rules, for things that are paid for. Probably not bought.

And paid for A&Cs aren't indestructible, you just get them back later if killed/broken... and I'd add 'mind controlled', 'zapped by a Power' and 'tricked' to that list.  Otherwise they're 8-point+ resistant to Psyche, for free. YMMV.

What's the multiplier for 250,000 anyway?

250,000 multiplier would be x4 I suspect a horde is x3. You might push it to x5 depending.

[sir brad]

"Shadow Wide" is X4, I suppose he could have got out of it for a "Hoard" at X3, but that would have cost him Years of Shadow Time.

but at X4 he didn't have to stop at 250K, that was the GM saying "That's enough or you'll brake my story"

[RTrimmer]

Say a PC pulls a Bleys and loses 99% of a huge army; say it's paid for.

When he gets back to the (bought) shadows they came from, are they instantly replaced? Duplicated? Can you make this into a loop? Expend your army, walk through shadow a bit and come back, summoning, and assault with the replacement army? As many times as it takes?

While the paid-for armies thing is featured (erratically) in the rulebook, I find it's more fun to make the PCs use armies from their own shadows (which do not respawn in under a generation), recruit them or steal them. Personalities, earning or buying loyalty and role playing are involved.

[jibbajibba]

Say a PC pulls a Bleys and loses 99% of a huge army; say it's paid for.

When he gets back to the (bought) shadows they came from, are they instantly replaced? Duplicated? Can you make this into a loop? Expend your army, walk through shadow a bit and come back, summoning, and assault with the replacement army? As many times as it takes?

While the paid-for armies thing is featured (erratically) in the rulebook, I find it's more fun to make the PCs use armies from their own shadows (which do not respawn in under a generation), recruit them or steal them. Personalities, earning or buying loyalty and role playing are involved.

No he can travel to a shadow and there waiting for him is his army well a shadow of his army, asking when they are heading out to battle and how come he was so long on the latrine. He can only have one army at a time though. However you could build and army and make it ubiquitous in shadow so whatever shadow you visited there was your army. Then you could take your army to another shadow and meet up with that shadow's version etc . I would make this really expensive though Horde x3 per shadow so probably up to about x9 and it would be pretty silly when you could recruit them for a 3 or 4 hour shadow ride.

I have had loads of players running agents. So the shadow pawns for example were ubiquitous in shadow there were 9 of them in any location the PC chose. In actual play he needed to decide on a shadow and then work the pawns into the correct positions to watch for the right stuff. They were all psychically linked and costed out at 1 or 2 points each. Anyway I have had many similar versions from ubiquitous crows spies to demons disguised and furniture.