SPECIAL NOTICE
Malicious code was found on the site, which has been removed, but would have been able to access files and the database, revealing email addresses, posts, and encoded passwords (which would need to be decoded). However, there is no direct evidence that any such activity occurred. REGARDLESS, BE SURE TO CHANGE YOUR PASSWORDS. And as is good practice, remember to never use the same password on more than one site. While performing housekeeping, we also decided to upgrade the forums.
This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Emerging onto a shadow

Started by Doughdee222, September 08, 2013, 05:24:15 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Taewakan

I guess I just do not see the problem with giving my PCs stuff like armies and dragons and normal fill-in-the-blanks. Especially since the only way they get to use them in Amber is if they go head-to-head with an elder - which is, well, you saw how well it worked for Bleys and Corwin.

I do suspect that Bleys paid points for his army. But not a lot of points. You don't spend points like that and expect to lose them. In the books a Horde is described as fifty or so - not attila the hun's hundreds of thousands.

Personally, I still don't have a problem with giving the PCs large numbers of cannon fodder.
As a DM you have to think like an Elder. A PC is going to provide little more than a distraction to an Elder no matter what they come up with - that's just the way the system is set up. Any thing more is gratis from the DM.

Remember, rule number one is to have fun. It is not a competition. It is a game and there should be a rule against the DM not having fun too :D

Just another 2 cents...

Taewakan

Quote from: RTrimmer;733316Um, really "unchangeable by another"? Corwin and Random killed them right quick. Why is that different from alteration via powers?

Bleys didn't summon the army -- He called them up from multiple versions of Avernus -- like you can, in the rules, for things that are paid for. Probably not bought.

And paid for A&Cs aren't indestructible, you just get them back later if killed/broken... and I'd add 'mind controlled', 'zapped by a Power' and 'tricked' to that list.  Otherwise they're 8-point+ resistant to Psyche, for free. YMMV.

What's the multiplier for 250,000 anyway?

I kinda agree - only they had to actually get out there and kill them themselves instead of just thinking them gone/changed. Its just a different coin being spent. But the coin IS being spent.
Eric used the JoJ to kill of a good percentage of the armies before they reached Amber just by "thinking" at them.
How many points is the JoJ? I'm just sayin'.

warp9

Quote from: RTrimmer;733035And Flora was trying to influence her maid, in her home, on Earth. Where, since she'd been monitoring Corwin for almost 200 years without him noticing, she'd logically developed lot of preternatural influence.
So why didn't it work then?

My explanation would be that their enemies also had some influence over the maid---which would seem to be based on their own shadow-manipulation abilities.

warp9

Quote from: Panjumanju;689625You make shadow walking sound like it's really quick - but it could take months or even years to shadow walk from the Castle of Amber to New York.
Months or years---how do you figure that?

Shadow walking to places never seemed to take that long in the books (at least as far as I can remember).

Panjumanju

Quote from: warp9;734013Months or years---how do you figure that?

Shadow walking to places never seemed to take that long in the books (at least as far as I can remember).

For the narrative Zelazny can take as much or as little time as he wants getting people from A to B if that's all that's happening. I think the stronger indicators of how long it takes pattern walking are:

* The quicker the walk the more dangerous the route.
* Routes through shadow do not tend to repeat.
* Driving or riding does not make for a quicker shadow walk than walking.
* Therefore, Zelazny's multi-verse of shadows is not represented as a series of fixed points.

Depending on what is put up in your way (like Flora trying to leave Earth - assuming she wasn't lying) it could even be impossible to get from shadow to shadow without taking the really, really long way around.

The only way I think this works is because the closer one gets to castle Amber the more shadows take on fixed positions - they must, because otherwise trade routes would not be established within the Golden Circle. Similarly, getting out to the Courts of Chaos - different rooms could be different shadows.

In short, the length of time it takes to walk between shadows is a narrative device, both for Zelazny and for Amber Diceless GMs. It's ripe with story possibilities and complications, but it's not something players should count on as consistent.

//Panjumanju
"What strength!! But don't forget there are many guys like you all over the world."
--
Now on Crowdfundr: "SOLO MARTIAL BLUES" is a single-player martial arts TTRPG at https://fnd.us/solo-martial-blues?ref=sh_dCLT6b

RTrimmer

Because direct manipulation of people by Pattern, even under the most favorable circumstances, is not reliable. Not in the stories. If it was, they would do it all the time. Instead of a pulpy/cinematic, action-oriented series we'd have a bunch of people grimacing, chanting and pointing their fingers at each other. Sounds like a snooze fest to me. YMMV.



Quote from: warp9;734011So why didn't it work then?

My explanation would be that their enemies also had some influence over the maid---which would seem to be based on their own shadow-manipulation abilities.

warp9

Quote from: Panjumanju;734027For the narrative Zelazny can take as much or as little time as he wants getting people from A to B if that's all that's happening. I think the stronger indicators of how long it takes pattern walking are:

* The quicker the walk the more dangerous the route.
* Routes through shadow do not tend to repeat.
* Driving or riding does not make for a quicker shadow walk than walking.
* Therefore, Zelazny's multi-verse of shadows is not represented as a series of fixed points.

Depending on what is put up in your way (like Flora trying to leave Earth - assuming she wasn't lying) it could even be impossible to get from shadow to shadow without taking the really, really long way around.

The only way I think this works is because the closer one gets to castle Amber the more shadows take on fixed positions - they must, because otherwise trade routes would not be established within the Golden Circle. Similarly, getting out to the Courts of Chaos - different rooms could be different shadows.

In short, the length of time it takes to walk between shadows is a narrative device, both for Zelazny and for Amber Diceless GMs. It's ripe with story possibilities and complications, but it's not something players should count on as consistent.

//Panjumanju
That is all true, but I still don't see how normal Shadow-walking would take weeks or months to get to Amber.

In Flora's case, she was having problems because she wanted to go the whole way in comfort and style. Random was able to make the trip (during the same time period) relatively easily, they did have to stop once for gas and "Kentucki Fried Lizard Partes" but the trip up to Arden didn't seem to take more than a part of a day.

The main issues they had occurred once they got to pretty near to Amber, and those were not really shadow-walking problems. Those problems had more to do with the fact that Amber and Arden were guarded by Eric's forces and also by Julian.

warp9

Quote from: RTrimmer;734063
QuoteSo why didn't it work then?
Because direct manipulation of people by Pattern, even under the most favorable circumstances, is not reliable. Not in the stories. If it was, they would do it all the time. Instead of a pulpy/cinematic, action-oriented series we'd have a bunch of people grimacing, chanting and pointing their fingers at each other. Sounds like a snooze fest to me. YMMV.
But that doesn't explain why, when Flora said she had decided that the maid would not open the door, Random replied: "But you don't know what you're up against"

And when they had to stop the maid from opening the door Random said: "That shows the strength of the opposition."

If Flora's influence over the maid simply failed because such things were not reliable, then what did that have to do with what they were up against, and how would this failure show anything about the strength of the opposition?

But I do agree that what happened in that scene with the maid raises the question: why didn't they do that sort of thing all the time? And it seemed to contradict many of the other events which happened in the series.

RTrimmer

Personally, I think it contradicts the rest of the books because it's around pg. 20 in NPiA and when Roger started he knew Corwin's personality, the end point (telling someone the story) and just improvised from that. So Random, full brother in the looking-at-the-Trumps scene, got retconned to half-, the psion stuff (and easily scragged hunter-killers being better psions than Amberites) got ignored, etc.

I'm a big admirer of RZ's work but internal consistency in the Amber series is not his best thing. OTOH he pulled several books and many characters I enjoy a great deal out of his top hat, spontaneously, like it was easy. Heck, Creatures of Light and Darkness was a writing exercise.


Quote from: warp9;734871But that doesn't explain why, when Flora said she had decided that the maid would not open the door, Random replied: "But you don't know what you're up against"

And when they had to stop the maid from opening the door Random said: "That shows the strength of the opposition."

If Flora's influence over the maid simply failed because such things were not reliable, then what did that have to do with what they were up against, and how would this failure show anything about the strength of the opposition?

But I do agree that what happened in that scene with the maid raises the question: why didn't they do that sort of thing all the time? And it seemed to contradict many of the other events which happened in the series.

Panjumanju

Quote from: warp9;734868That is all true, but I still don't see how normal Shadow-walking would take weeks or months to get to Amber.

In Flora's case, she was having problems because she wanted to go the whole way in comfort and style. Random was able to make the trip (during the same time period) relatively easily, they did have to stop once for gas and "Kentucki Fried Lizard Partes" but the trip up to Arden didn't seem to take more than a part of a day.

The main issues they had occurred once they got to pretty near to Amber, and those were not really shadow-walking problems. Those problems had more to do with the fact that Amber and Arden were guarded by Eric's forces and also by Julian.

The thing is, Zelazny himself was inconsistent. In regards to the Amber Diceless roleplaying game we can either see this as a flaw in his writing, or champion the notion that pattern walking itself is inconsistent.

We've got a universe where the Courts of Chaos are Chaos are so far away that no Amberite - over hundreds of years - has gone there, and yet Corwin can hell-ride for about two days and get there fine, having never been there before. The fact that the Elder Amberites had not been there can be set aside with the notion that many of them were lying, but the situation is still problematic when you remember how Corwin travels on Shadow Earth.

Corwin takes commercial aeroplanes. Somehow this was faster than a) pattern walking to a neighbouring, nearer location on Earth, or b) pattern walking into a neighbouring shadow that would border with that Shadow Earth then walking back in.

In my analysis he didn't do that because pattern walking is inconsistent - you don't really know how long it's going to take. You could try to nip into the next shadow in order to save yourself airport taxes and end up going on a two month detour. Flying commercially was somehow safer for him.

Random and Corwin getting to Arden from Shadow Earth took only a short amount of time - but it didn't have to. It could have taken any amount of time. It takes as long as Zelazny / the GM needs it to take.

//Panjumanju
"What strength!! But don't forget there are many guys like you all over the world."
--
Now on Crowdfundr: "SOLO MARTIAL BLUES" is a single-player martial arts TTRPG at https://fnd.us/solo-martial-blues?ref=sh_dCLT6b

Taewakan

Flora is not painted as the sharpest tool in the shed and if her maid was just real - not bought and paid for - then any artifact with "mold shadow creature" could compel the maid to open the door using that power - which is what Random was referring to in his reference to her not knowing the power of those pursuing them. I mean, if I was sending an artifact (or named and numbered artifacts, more likely) after an elder, even an injured one, I'd be buying mold everything, shadow seek, extra damage, regeneration and extra speed; then I'd use them to herd the elder into a REAL trap, but that's just me. Eric was known for his arrogance, but he did want to keep his own hands clean, so...
I'm just sayin'.

RTrimmer

Flora had spied on Corwin for almost 200 years without getting caught, to, apparently, Eric's satisfaction. That would require either very good Warfare of her own or compensatory powers. Easiest and cheapest in game terms wold be  to acquire Earth as a personal shadow with Control of Contents.

Shadow hunters: If you have the 32 or more points available wouldn't it be better to buy up Warfare, Psyche, Advanced Pattern or something of that sort?


Quote from: Taewakan;735024Flora is not painted as the sharpest tool in the shed and if her maid was just real - not bought and paid for - then any artifact with "mold shadow creature" could compel the maid to open the door using that power - which is what Random was referring to in his reference to her not knowing the power of those pursuing them. I mean, if I was sending an artifact (or named and numbered artifacts, more likely) after an elder, even an injured one, I'd be buying mold everything, shadow seek, extra damage, regeneration and extra speed; then I'd use them to herd the elder into a REAL trap, but that's just me. Eric was known for his arrogance, but he did want to keep his own hands clean, so...
I'm just sayin'.

warp9

Quote from: RTrimmer;734891the psion stuff (and easily scragged hunter-killers being better psions than Amberites) got ignored, etc.
I don't see it as "psion" stuff so much as manipulating shadow reality (unless you consider all shadow manipulation as "psion stuff."

If a lucid dreamer causes someone to do something in his dreams, I wouldn't really call that psion stuff, it is just a matter of dreams not being real. Same thing applies to shadows.

To me the main difference is that, in most of Corwin's descriptions, traveling in Shadow is like traveling in infinite worlds, where all things are possible (which doesn't necessarily make shadow-worlds any less real). If Corwin wants something, like uncut diamonds, or a new pair of clothes, he generally heads for a world where he can find those things.

On the other hand, some of the things which occur are a bit different, such as when the characters clothes and other personal items/vehicles change while they are traveling through shadow. That seems to be a bit different than simply traveling between point A and point B in shadow.  It is not like walking through shadow to find a new outfit, or a different car. IMO the fact that these things get shifted around in this way suggests some level of un-reality.

Manipulating things while staying in one shadow is just one step further than that.

To me, this is really a question of how much power the Amberites have over shadow.

warp9

Quote from: Panjumanju;735022The thing is, Zelazny himself was inconsistent. In regards to the Amber Diceless roleplaying game we can either see this as a flaw in his writing, or champion the notion that pattern walking itself is inconsistent.
Yes, there are some inconsistencies. And I wouldn't argue that pattern walking is going to be an exact science. However, there is still nothing to suggest that it could vary as much as what you've indicated.


Quote from: Panjumanju;735022We've got a universe where the Courts of Chaos are Chaos are so far away that no Amberite - over hundreds of years - has gone there, and yet Corwin can hell-ride for about two days and get there fine, having never been there before. The fact that the Elder Amberites had not been there can be set aside with the notion that many of them were lying, but the situation is still problematic when you remember how Corwin travels on Shadow Earth.

Corwin takes commercial aeroplanes. Somehow this was faster than a) pattern walking to a neighbouring, nearer location on Earth, or b) pattern walking into a neighbouring shadow that would border with that Shadow Earth then walking back in.

In my analysis he didn't do that because pattern walking is inconsistent - you don't really know how long it's going to take. You could try to nip into the next shadow in order to save yourself airport taxes and end up going on a two month detour. Flying commercially was somehow safer for him.
I'd say that you are assuming too much here.

First of all, there is only one instance I can remember with Corwin taking a flight, that was during the part of Guns of Avalon where he and Ganelon were on Shadow Earth, waiting for the guns and ammo to get ready. At that point, Corwin had time to kill, and money to burn. He was back on Shadow Earth, where he had lived for a long time---why not do the same things he was used to doing, as he was used to doing them? There was no real need to skip through shadow then.

Even more, the story itself provides direct contradiction to your assumption that taking short-cuts through shadow is a bad idea, because Corwin speaks of doing just that in Guns of Avalon:

QuoteAfter we took on the ammo, we still had plenty of room for fuel and other supplies. We had taken a short cut through Shadow, of course, to avoid the people who wait around borders to delay traffic.

And, as another direct contradiction to the idea that taking a nip into the next Shadow could have such major consequences, in NPiA Random also mentions doing that during the time he was on the plane. . . .

QuoteThey were on the plane with me. I took a jet. They occurred around Denver. I moved the plane several times to subtract them, but it didn't work

In all the examples from the books, shadow-walking happens pretty quickly. Zelazny may not always be consistent, but that issue is not a point of inconsistency.

Panjumanju

I think you're missing the nature of trying to convert the material to usable mechanics in a roleplaying game, warp9.

Why do you want pattern walk to be a super-fast mode of travel?

//Panjumanju
"What strength!! But don't forget there are many guys like you all over the world."
--
Now on Crowdfundr: "SOLO MARTIAL BLUES" is a single-player martial arts TTRPG at https://fnd.us/solo-martial-blues?ref=sh_dCLT6b