Dworkin/Pattern/Unicorn and Suhuy/Logrus/Serpent

[Trevelyan]

This might raise another great question... Is Dworkin the Pattern's pet or is it the other way around. (Similar question for Suhuy and the Logrus) pardon me if this has been covered somewhere else.

Nihilistic Mind raised the above question in the Dworkin thread and since I'm not aware of it being raised elsewhere I thought I'd raise it here. Because Suhuy is also involved I thought it deserved it's own thread apart from the Dworkin discussion. I'd also lile to widen the topic to include the Unicorn and the Serpent, and their roles in the scheme of things.

The Pattern and Logrus, in the words of the Pattern itself, represent two opposing principles - Order and Chaos. Their interests are represented by the Unicorn and the Serpent, but it doesn't seem reasonable to me that either the creatures or the sigils are senior, but instead that they are simply different representations of their underlying concept.

Dworkin and Suhuy are clearly individuals apart from this scheme, but closely tied to one side or the other.

We know that Dworkin drew the pattern using the Jewel of Judgement, but since the Jewel contains a "higher order" image of the Pattern it does not seem that Dworkin actually predates the Pattern.

I've always assumed that the Logrus/Chaos/Serpent was the victor in a previous round of the ongoing conflict between the two forces and that the Pattern was somehow bound in the Eye of the Serpent as a result of it's failure. Note that, although Eye of the Serpent may be a symbolic title, the Serpent has only one eye, and the Unicorn has a very sharp horn.

In this scheme, Dworkin becomes a principle piece in the ongoing conflict between the powers, and his medium in drawing the latest incarnation of the Pattern (i.e. his own blood) seems to give him a unique influence and interaction.

The introduction to Trumps of Doom suggests that the Logrus is not simply a design made on the floor, although Merlin's comments to Fiona regarding Corwin's Pattern imply that the Logrus is merely an angular and mobile design. If the Logrus does have some physical "pattern" at it's heart, then we may wonder how that design was inscribed and whether Suhuy was responsible in a previous round of the game. Personally I feel that Suhuy, while Dworkin's equal in understanding, is not the originator of the Logrus, although he may be a direct descendant.

Of cuorse, Merlin could have been lying to Fiona about the appearance of the Logrus as he was about his inability to walk Corwin's Pattern, so the nature of the Logrus remains pure speculation.

Blue Horse, Dancing Mountain shows Dworkin and Suhuy (if it was really them) as continuing acquaintances, perhaps even friends, but certainly equals. They also have a far wider undertanding of events than most others and perhaps even direct them to some extent. Are they perhaps in the process of ascending to a greter oneness with the powers they side with?

This raises two further avenues for speculation: One, are Fiona and Mandor moving to replace Dworkin and Suhuy in some way (ref. The Hall of Mirrors); two, given the amicable relationship between Dworkin and Suhuy, and the fact that the powers in any representation, while antagonistic, are far from openly violent suggest that the conflict really is more of a game with no long term repercussions beyond bragging rights? Do the Pattern and the Logrus exhibit the sort of sibling rivalry twinned with easy reconciliation and family affection that dominates Amber and the Courts of Chaos? Might they have other conceptual Sibling?

So, does anyone have any thoughts?

[crafty]

Actually, looking at both Chaosians and Amberites, it appears that if they are shadows of the powers (albeit close shadows) then the "game" outlook would appear correct.

To my mind the Amberites went a very long time believing the source of power was in the basement, turns out that "Amber" is a shadow of the primal Pattern.  The Pattern restructures one to be more "pure" thus changing Shadow into reality (ditto for Logrus to keep this apolitical).  It seems to me you could be on to something.

If Dworkin and Suhuy were to "ascend", they would doubtlessly need to find suitable replacements for themselves, and both examples are very well versed in their respective powers.

[Otha]

I have always liked the idea that things are rarely as simple as binary opposites.  There should be a gripping hand that is neither Logrus nor Pattern.

In the game I'm running now, the power that opposes Pattern is Abyss rather than Logrus... I hate that Logrus just turns out to be an extra chaos-y Pattern.  That's one of the long list of things I dislike about the Merlin chronicles.  If Logrus is so great, why the hell did Chaos lose the war?

Also, there's no Suhuy in my game; the guy who is most attuned to Abyss is a beggar pit-diver who's lost most of his sanity and several body parts to the abyss and has nothing to show for it; he's quite powerless, and while he's treated with some reverence by the Chaosians he's got no influence with them.  The Abyss doesn't trade; it takes.

Sorry if I'm thread-puking here; the whole pattern-logrus thing leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

[Nihilistic Mind]

I have always liked the idea that things are rarely as simple as binary opposites.  There should be a gripping hand that is neither Logrus nor Pattern.

Yup, shades of grey...

Besides, there's more to consider than the order of things/beings/powers in this game. During Merlin's chronicles, the spikards are brought into the forefront and represent "ancient powers". And what about Trump? Or Corwin's Pattern?
Why don't they get to play in Dworkin and Suhuy's dichotomous game? Can't Corwin represent his own Pattern rather than continue to help Dworkin's side of the board?


It seems to me that the whole Pattern vs. Logrus game that Dworkin and Suhuy play is a simple suggestion that they have an immense understanding of the Universe and the Metaphysics of the Amberverse... It doesn't have to be more than that, does it?

On the one hand, I've always liked the idea of the fantastical creatures (serpent, unicorn) fathering the powers, then corrupting their 'side' of the universe to fit their ideals, including powerful characters such as Dworkin or Suhuy.

On the other hand, I do entertain the possibility of another hierarchy: Dworkin>Unicorn>Pattern (Dworkin's blood makes/unmakes the Pattern, the Unicorn provides the possibility of the Pattern by presenting Dworkin with it, as well as providing him with a son).

What I'm having trouble with is that it would create a similar pattern on the flip side - Suhuy>Serpent>Logrus - which I'm having trouble justifying.

In my opinion, Zelazny saw it this way:
Unicorn>Pattern>Dworkin>Champions of the Pattern; and:
Serpent>Logrus>Suhuy>Champions of the Logrus. At least it is strongly suggested by Merlin's chronicles and the short stories.

One might somehow justify that Dworkin=Pattern. Where the equal sign is the facilitator: the Unicorn. When both Dworkin and the Primal Pattern are damaged, the Unicorn brings Corwin to the site of the Primal Pattern(granted, Ganelon/Oberon... so then again, if the Unicorn is Oberon's pet, that's a whole new set of equations).

But how about Suhuy=Logrus? Suhuy might be the keeper of the Logrus, but what real connection do they have outside of this arrangement? Nothing near Dworkin's damaged mind reflecting the damaged Pattern, it seems... And what connection with the Serpent.

Perhaps Yggdrasil is the real mirror and the Unicorn is the Serpent's reflection, the Pattern is the Logrus' reflection, Suhuy is Dworkin's reflection... Ok, unlikely, since it seems Ygg was planted by Oberon after the creation of the Pattern etc... Just jotting down some thoughts here (this thread feels like a good campaign brainstorm start).

In the end, whatever Power/Super-being/NPC hierarchy is decided upon for a game, what the players do with a power is gonna be more important than what the hierarchy actually is (unless the campaign allows the PCs to delve into that). On top of that, despite the game being played, PCs will likely aim for a sort of balance between the powers rather than choose a side and devote themselves fully...

In my current campaign, Shapeshifting is a very powerful thing (the PCs mostly play in the Courts of Chaos side of things and those marked by the Logrus are only about two or three times as many as those imprinted by the Pattern). It doesn't have a fantastic creature symbolizing it or even a localized power source other than one's self, but it can do so many things for the PCs (and NPCs, of course). This stems from the fact that all players involved chose advanced shapeshifting to start with (among other things). I kept my campaign's 'power hierarchy' loose and let the character creation process determine the focus and it's shaping out to be a most enjoyable thing! -I'm probably going to keep that loose until the players decide/need to delve more fully into the metaphysical workings of the campaign.-

[Trevelyan]

I hate that Logrus just turns out to be an extra chaos-y Pattern.  That's one of the long list of things I dislike about the Merlin chronicles.

I don't think that the Logrus is ever portrayed as an extra chaosy Pattern in either the books of ADRPG.

Our knowledge of the Pattern is limited since the only thing we ever really see it do it allow shadow walking at various speeds. Corwin was no trained sorcerer, or if he was then he displayed a total ignorance of the ability in the first series, so we don't get to see many higher functions. All we can assume is some sort of probability manipulation (ref the scene in Flora's house) and soem form of wider fate amnipulation (Oberon's comments to Corwin in conjunction with Lorraine, and Bleys claim to have saught a shadow - Avernus - where a brother would appear to help him).

It is likely that Fiona, Bleys and Brand did know a lot more about their powers. Corwin recalls that the three of them often listened to Dworkin, and Bleys' use of Avernus to secure the help of a brother is similar to Oberon's use of Lorraine to trap Corwin.

Our knowledge of the Logrus starts (prelude to Trumps of Doom) with a demonstration that even acquiring the power is different from walking the Pattern. Merlin makes his way through a three dimensional maze of shifting proportions and is assailed by a variety of lights and sounds. He emerges with his clothes torn and bloody. While we understand a lot about the physical manifestation of the Logrus and some of the powers it provides, we never conclusively see Merlin using it to travel through shadow (he never states whether he uses Logrus or Pattern for his walks). It may be that shadow walking is identical for Logrus and Pattern users and is merely a side effect of the real powers provided.

Suhuy comments that the Logrus can do everything the Pattern can do and also summon primal chaos, but we have no reason to assue that he is correct in this assumption, or that he is talking about specific abilities.

Suhuy and Merlin also refer to the fact that Merlin (and presumably others) had to be coached in preparation for their trip through the Logrus, while Merlin and Coral showed that a complete novice can be ready to walk the Pattern with a five minute prep talk. They appear to be significantly different experiences.

If Logrus is so great, why the hell did Chaos lose the war?

Initially, because Zelazny apparently wrote a lot of stuff as he was going along. Chaos wasn't a fully developed place in the Corwin books but it was certainly the enemy. Like all good fantasy stories, the Corwin series had to end with the "good guys" winning the day.

Secondly, why does the power of the Logrus matter in a war? We have no reason to assume that Logrus users are significantly more numerous than Pattern users - Merlin attests to knowing them all, which indicates a reasonably small crowd. The large numbers of troops involved and the individual military prowess of Benedict as Amber general is sufficient reason for Amber to have won that battle.

I tend to have much the same view as Nihilistic Mind regarding teh frequency of Logrus users and the use of shape shifting in Chaos. Logrus is a power reserved for the elite - mostly those of the greater houses and maybe a few dedicated sorcerers from smaller houses. Most denizens of Chaos use shapeshifting because it's inherent, flexible and doesn't usually drive you mad or risk killing you in the process of obtaining it.

[Trevelyan]

Besides, there's more to consider than the order of things/beings/powers in this game. During Merlin's chronicles, the spikards are brought into the forefront and represent "ancient powers". And what about Trump? Or Corwin's Pattern?

I've never seen trump as a power in itself. Merlin makes it clear that it's just an application of basic principles underpinning Pattern and Logrus.

The spikards are a fantastic story element. In The Salesman's Tale, we discover that they were used by the servants of the gods in a time before there was a Pattern but not before there was a Logrus.

Perhaps the Serpent/Logrus was one of these gods, that overcame the others and established it's own rule. The Unicorn/Pattern might then be soemthing like a child of the Logrus, spawned in part from the Serpent's eye. The conflict between them then becomes a generational conflict between parent and child.

Why don't they get to play in Dworkin and Suhuy's dichotomous game? Can't Corwin represent his own Pattern rather than continue to help Dworkin's side of the board?

I think new Corwin, post imprisionment in Chaos might well do that once he gets a handle on how things really work. Who better to teach him about the hidden mysteries ofthe universe than his own Pattern?

It seems to me that the whole Pattern vs. Logrus game that Dworkin and Suhuy play is a simple suggestion that they have an immense understanding of the Universe and the Metaphysics of the Amberverse... It doesn't have to be more than that, does it?

It doesn't have to, but they do seem to be directing the moves of the participants rather than simply observing them. Of course, I wouldn't put it past those two to have staged the whole event for the benefit of Corwin. Perhaps Suhuy had his own representative listening in on the other side of the game, and the move that Corwin didn't hear might have been directed at this other party.

Perhaps Yggdrasil is the real mirror and the Unicorn is the Serpent's reflection, the Pattern is the Logrus' reflection, Suhuy is Dworkin's reflection... Ok, unlikely, since it seems Ygg was planted by Oberon after the creation of the Pattern etc... Just jotting down some thoughts here (this thread feels like a good campaign brainstorm start).

I like that idea. The problem with Oberon planting Ygg can be overlooked since we know that Oberon wasn't above playing games with the usual order of time.

This is definitely a good place to brainstorm.

[Nihilistic Mind]

It doesn't have to, but they do seem to be directing the moves of the participants rather than simply observing them. Of course, I wouldn't put it past those two to have staged the whole event for the benefit of Corwin. Perhaps Suhuy had his own representative listening in on the other side of the game, and the move that Corwin didn't hear might have been directed at this other party.

Or perhaps the whole thing was an illusionary experience actually staged by Corwin's Pattern to slip him insights about: what it witnessed elsewhere; how the game is played and who are the major players (has Corwin met Suhuy elsewhere in the novels); the fact that Dworkin still uses him as an agent of his own Pattern; or whatever else the scene reveals about the conflict between order and chaos (left to interpretation).

After all, if Dworkin and Suhuy met to play with THEIR pawns, wouldn't they meet in UnderShadow? :raise:

This is definitely a good place to brainstorm.

Yup, yup. Try this, Heldrasil... Yggdrasil's dark reflection.

[Trevelyan]

Yup, yup. Try this, Heldrasil... Yggdrasil's dark reflection.

Oooh!

Perhaps Heldrasil extends from the roots of Yggdrasil into undershadow like some mirror image tree taken from a Dali painting. This may provide players with a route into undershadow...

[Nihilistic Mind]

Oooh!

Perhaps Heldrasil extends from the roots of Yggdrasil into undershadow like some mirror image tree taken from a Dali painting. This may provide players with a route into undershadow...

Yeah, I like that. Or vice-versa, where Yggdrasil is in fact Heldrasil's reflection/extension from UnderShadow into the worlds the Amberites know as reality...

Another use for Ygg: it's a power of its own, extending roots throughout many shadows. If Ygg had a mystical animal and a representative, what would they be like?

Ygg as a power could, much like broken pattern imprint, be available to characters with stats that are lower and/or to those without the Blood of Amber...

[Croaker]

If Ygg had a mystical animal and a representative, what would they be like?

Well, a raven and a one-eyed man, of course

[Arref]

The Pattern and Logrus, in the words of the Pattern itself, represent two opposing principles - Order and Chaos. Their interests are represented by the Unicorn and the Serpent, but it doesn't seem reasonable to me that either the creatures or the sigils are senior, but instead that they are simply different representations of their underlying concept.

Dworkin and Suhuy are clearly individuals apart from this scheme, but closely tied to one side or the other.

In fractal truths, all the little parts echo the big parts.

I don't think I could explain my decades of gaming to a brand new gamer in a paragraph. Likewise (even assuming the words are from the Pattern), I don't think the truth is condensed into a sketch of polar opposites.

IOW, I do not think that Order/Unicorn/Dworkin/Pattern are on the same page or playing the same tune. Same for Chaos, etc.

Trust me in all things.

[Nihilistic Mind]

IOW, I do not think that Order/Unicorn/Dworkin/Pattern are on the same page or playing the same tune. Same for Chaos, etc.

Trust me in all things.

Give us some of your insight then.
How do you view the damaged Dworkin/Pattern situation, for example? What sort of connection prompted it? Is it unrelated?

I've got a problem with the theory that the destruction of one destroys the other... Damage one and the other is affected, maybe. Dworkin wanted to destroy the Pattern in the Corwin chronicles (because of his 'madness' I suppose) so if that was the case, why not kill himself?

[Croaker]

Well, the fact that one affect the other doesn't mean that that's 100% efficient. Killing dworkin could only just "wound" the pattern, and vice versa, probably at different rates.
You should also notive that the unicorn seemed unnafected by all this.

[Arref]

How do you view the damaged Dworkin/Pattern situation, for example? What sort of connection prompted it? Is it unrelated?

Note the above post, how the unicorn seems unaffected by the 'wound' to the Primal Pattern. This certainly puts the Pattern and Unicorn as allies rather than symbiotes or avatars.

Dworkin and Oberon do not discuss repairing Dworkin to fix the 'wound'. And Brand did not attack Dworkin to cause it. Worth noting also is that folks used the Patterns in Rebma and Amber will no ill effects while the Primal Pattern was damaged. It is confirmed in canon that the Primal Pattern damage hasn't affected the Jewel of Judgment either. Why would those Patterns not illustrate the link to source? Or source to link?

All this suggests the 'linkage' as described by Dworkin was more poetic than actual. Dworkin says he is damaged, but he's apparently been a bit off for a long time.

Amber also exists for many years before Oberon 'takes the Unicorn' as its heraldic symbol. Another clue that all these elements are not welded together in a grand design.

Oberon repairs the Pattern using the Jewel... and Dworkin is hardly involved at all. In any complex undertaking of arcane links, why wouldn't Dworkin be an element if he was intrinsic? Why would Oberon actually make such an effort to keep Dworkin away from the Pattern with a griffin guardian?

And why wouldn't Dworkin force Oberon's hand by undoing himself and forcing his son to remake the Pattern from scratch as he suggested?

Just a few too many things that don't match well to Dworkin's version.

[Trevelyan]

Purely off the top of my head, the damage to the Primal Pattern was reflected throughout Shadow, yet none of the "big three" Patterns showed any direct signs of it. Laying aside the most likely reason (that Zelazny probably hadn't conceived of the Primal Pattern when he wrote Nine Princes) we can explain this by saying either that because the "big three", together with the various broken patterns, are already diminished, damaged versions of the original (albeit that the flaws in the contral Patterns are too slight to be readily detected) they did not exhibit further damage. They exist as poor reflections of a perfect whole, and damage to that whole does not entail further damage to the copy.

No discussion was made of fixing Dworkin to fix the Primal Pattern because the cuase of the shared damage was the stain on the Pattern and not direct damage to Dworkin. Talk of fixing Dworkin without repairing the Pattern is akin to talk of sewing up a wound with a broken arrow still trapped inside. It treats the symptom without touching the disease.

The existence of a link between Pattern/Unicorn/Amber and Dworkin at no point requires the immediate, or even eventual public acknowledgement of such a link by other parties, including Oberon. That Oberon did not imediately adopt the Unicorn as the sign of Amber does not mean that no link exists.

And so on...

More generally, your comment that "In fractal truths, all the little parts echo the big parts." is not so much a refutation of my suggestion "[n]either the creatures or the sigils are senior, but instead that they are simply different representations of their underlying concept." but rather a restatement of that claim. Their is an underpinning unity in the actions and apparent purpose of Pattern/Unicorn just as with Logrus/Serpent. Dworkin and Suhuy play into this in a less obvious, perhaps less partisan but certainly no less significant way.