TheRPGSite

There is a feeling, which may well be correct, that of all the ruleset of Amber Diceless, the rules on sorcery are the weakest in construction.

This leads me to think that no doubt a lot of people have probably tried alternate systems.  Has anyone here tried any they'd care to describe?

For my part, I've always pretty well used sorcery as-is, though I admit that at times I've dabbled with the thought of changing it.  Sometimes I've considered directly replacing it altogether, with some other kind of system, but I've never figured out which would quite fit what we see in Amber.  

Recently, I've thought a lot about doing something that didn't really fit the Amber setting at all, just for kicks, possibly based on WFRP's magic system.

Interestingly enough, a recent RPG I've received for review (Promised Sands) has a system of magic based on combining elemental "nouns" to create spells, that reminds me of the lynchpin system described vaguely in the novels.  This has got my wheels turning about trying to adapt this to Amber.

RPGPundit

I've talked with one of the early playtesters of ADRP and she told me about a pre-publication version of the Sorcery rules which were about 2 pages in length and were exceptionally freeform. Sadly, she no longer had a copy of these rules. :(

Apparently, the current Sorcery rules were created specifically for publication in the ADRP rulebook and aren't actually the same as the playtested version.

Erick confirmed this but didn't have any of his notes nearby, so he couldn't check to see if he had any more information at this time.

I agree that the Sorcery rules in ADRP don't fit in well with the rest of it, more complex by far.

I think just making a list of what sorcery can and cannot do, the way Pattern, Logrus, etc. are described, would be sufficient.

I always found the Lynchpin system of Sorcery to be interesting, yet quite limiting. The net effect seems to be that Sorcery becomes virtually worthless unless exacting conditions can be met, and a clever opponent can manage to maneuver around those conditions if he/she is aware of them in advance.

I know that this effect is intentional because the intent of the ADRP is to simulate somewhat Zelazny's books, and Sorcery is clearly inferior in the source material.

Still, where other powers appear to be useful in many circumstances, Sorcery appears to be useful in very few.

Quote from: finarvynI always found the Lynchpin system of Sorcery to be interesting, yet quite limiting. The net effect seems to be that Sorcery becomes virtually worthless unless exacting conditions can be met, and a clever opponent can manage to maneuver around those conditions if he/she is aware of them in advance.

I know that this effect is intentional because the intent of the ADRP is to simulate somewhat Zelazny's books, and Sorcery is clearly inferior in the source material.

Still, where other powers appear to be useful in many circumstances, Sorcery appears to be useful in very few.

Intentional and desirable.

The canon obviously intends for this to be true. Or to put it another way, name a place in the canon where sorcery changes a scene or plot moment. There is drama and flash to sorcery (style points, if you will), but seldom a spot where blade and fist don't carry the day.

I agree that the whole needs to be streamlined to a set of simple rules for how it all works in relation to the greater powers in the game.

Ars Magica's verb & noun system, surely...

V.

That's a good one but probably even more complicated than the ADRP system.

I think just throwing out the lynchpin system, with its definitions of what lynchpins ARE and leave it as mere color would be sufficient.  A player just writes down what any racked spell DOES, and then have the GM make spells more likely to fail when the sorceror doesn't know the local magic.

Quote from: Arrefname a place in the canon where sorcery changes a scene or plot moment.

In fact, the duel between Merlin and Dara and Mandor is entirely sorcerous in nature. They throw lots of magic back and forth.

Aren't there also some sorcerous duels over the Keep of the Four Winds?

Let me preface by saying that Zelazny is my favorite writer.

Quote from: PhishStyxIn fact, the duel between Merlin and Dara and Mandor is entirely sorcerous in nature. They throw lots of magic back and forth.

That's a bad example (or a great one depending on what you think of the plot.)

While the narrative doesn't give us much insight into how Mandor and Dara have prepared for that fight, the battle of two experienced aggressive Chaos intriguers against Merlin is not really in doubt from the build-up. It's purpose in the plot is to chop the 'apron strings' that have been a subplot through Merlin's story.

Two advanced spellcasters against one savant with a spikard? I think Zelazny gives us plenty of foreshadow of how this fight is going to go. Sorcerors quickly run out of prepared material: Merlin makes this comment. Once the skillful preparations are exhausted, it is raw power being splashed around, and spikards win this kind of fight against a gaggle of opponents.

The sorcerous duel at the Keep of Four Worlds is a better example. What shifts that battle to resolution? Julia taking a dagger to the side and Jurt deciding to teleport out with her.

Magic against an unprepared opponent works fine.
Magic against a prepared opponent is largely flash.
IMHO

Quote from: RPGPunditThere is a feeling, which may well be correct, that of all the ruleset of Amber Diceless, the rules on sorcery are the weakest in construction.

This leads me to think that no doubt a lot of people have probably tried alternate systems.  Has anyone here tried any they'd care to describe?

What I've been doing is using magic as a tool for information. The best use of magic might be getting hidden info before a fight or discovering other magic so you can defend yourself.

I ask sorcerors to have spell lists, so I can anticipate functions/impacts desired. I treat most 'combat' spells as wounding attacks with special effects.

I base all magic damage on the same premise as tech damage or blade damage: that is each is designed to do enough hurt to lame/kill a mortal. This means magic has much less impact on a healthy amberite (roughly 25% the harmful force.)

With these assumptions, I've never had trouble getting sorcerors to understand the genre expectations.

Yes, a gun or a blade is designed to maim or kill a mortal, but a stick of dynamite or a tank gun isn't.

What if a spell is designed to flatten a castle?

Quote from: OthaWhat if a spell is designed to flatten a castle?

Which is the same question, I suppose, as "what if a megaton fusion bomb is used on a command post?"

In my genre game experience, if sorcerors create these mega-spells they rarely have any place to use them. That would change if you had a king/army you wanted removed in an impressive fashion.

And Eric did use nukes on Corwin/Bleys' army. Canon support and all that.

So my answer tries to define the 'backstory' to the spell/tech/weapon. Tech has its own style and manners. You can order a fanatic to use a fusion bomb on strangers. You can steal a fusion bomb. You can know enough tech to set one off, even if you didn't design it.

There is little point in telling a PC that s/he can't do this (or that it isn't canon). So as GM, I want the story behind the device. How did you corrupt the officials to get the bomb? How long did you search shadow?

This answer informs the answer about the spell for flattening castles. The difference (favorable, IMHO) is that sorcerors can steal spells, but still have to do the prep and carry around the racked energy. (Setting aside that you could just get a sorceror to do this for you.)

So again, I don't say "no"... I ask about style and process. In this, I use a rule of thumb pulled from the ADRPG ranks: ranking up is about 1.5x to 2x as good.

Castle flattening is killing something like 100 to 1000 people in one brute attack. That would be six to nine rank steps. Starting from the basic magic premise that 'wounding' magic levels are the starting point, the PC needs to show six to nine times the effort to create and maintain the 'flatten castle' spell.

If a basic spell takes two hours to rig: 'flatten castle' takes 18 hours. Time is a resource that is strictly monitored by the GM. Fast-time shadows work oddly and spells constructed in fast-time are less predicatable.

The spell still needs a lynchpin, local magic key and line of sight delivery. Basic rules of discovery, defense and dispell still apply. Discovery/attunement of magic spells to a strange shadow takes a couple hours.

Now if your question was more: "Can I kill a couple of amberites in yonder castle by spell from a nearby hill with my megaspell?"

The GM answer is maybe, but don't count them dead until you see the bodies.

This may be somewhat anti-ADRP in philosophy since it would add layers of complexity rather than strip them away, but I thought I would at least mention another Sorcery idea.

The idea is based on TSR's old SAGA system (and probably others), written for DragonLance and Marvel Supers. The way magic works is that a character gets a certain number of spell points and constructs a spell based on certain perameters:
* Time duration of the spell
* Area effect of the spell
* Range of the spell
and so on. A spell cost is based on adding together the sum of the points from a bunch of charts.

If this is interesting to anyone, I can track down my SAGA rules and post something more specific.

I like


as a basic way of working it out.  It's essentially true for any magic system.

Quote from: Rel FexivePower Source + Casting Time + Focus = Effect + Duration + Range/Area

I like the basics of this system. It seems pretty simple and flexible.

So how do you assign values for each, or do you just "wing it"? I guess I'm wondering if you assign a point total based on a standard scale, based on the points spent on psyche + magic, or what.....

Effect:
Nuisance/detect
Inconvenience/communicate
Wound/impair
Maim/incapacitate
Kill/transform

Duration:
For a moment
For a combat
For a while
Until healed
Permanent

Range:
Me
Right here
Over there
In this shadow
In that shadow
Way across shadow

Good list.

Power Source/Focus:
The magic floating around in a magical shadow
A special place in a magical shadow (i.e. stonehenge)
The magic floating around in a shadow of Power (i.e. Keep of Four Winds)
A real big font of power (i.e. in the Keep of Four Winds itself)
Something Real and/or Primal that transcends shadow (Jewel of Judgement)

Casting/racking Time
Right Now
Hours
Days
Weeks
Months

Very nice -- the list is not unlike the one for the SAGA game system I mentioned before and looks to be well thought out.

I assume that you can simply total up the Effect, Range, Duration, Casting time numbers together to get a total point value for the spell. (Unless you totally "freestyle" it.) At least, that's the general method I've seen in other point cost systems.

So, how do you handle the numbers?
1-2-3-4-5 ?
1-2-4-8-16 ?
etc.

Also, does the "Power Source/Focus" number get used to determine the total amount of magic in a region, deduct from the point value of the spell, or what?

By the way, Otha... It's Keep of the Four Worlds.
Have you been playing L5R or something? J/k.

I like the system you guys are coming up with, but it's very unlikely I'll use it...
To me, sorcery in the Amber Universe is VERY dependent upon which Shadow the player characters are in... Psyche and experience with magic also determine how complex spells can be. And for the most part spells will be nothing more than complex and powerful Power Words. Unless one of the players comes up with a very cool description for a ritual or things like that.

The effects are often dependent upon the flavor text description that players will give me. For example: "I'll cast one of my stored lighting spells." will be quite survivable. Whereas, "Pulling the pattern to mind, I reach forth with my mind to communicate with the local mana and forces and summon a great cataclysm upon X," will get much further... even if it is an unprepared spell and assuming in both cases that magic works fairly mundanely in this particular shadow.

What do you guys think about keeping the sorcery system purely based on descriptions, roleplaying, and the factors we already know to affect magic...?

It is an interesting system you guys are coming up with, but do you mean to imply that each single spell would have a point cost?? As in, you'd pay 5 points to cast "fireball", and that's all you cast? Or what?

RPGPundit

I'm not entirely sure where we're going with this.

One use I can imagine is determining if a character can cast a given spell. Perhaps the maximum points a character could cast would be the sum of Psyche + Sorcery (or some such formula) and the player could then figure out what combinations of range, duration, etc. would fit within the abilites of the character.

Or, perhaps somehow Psyche + Endurance might give a total number of spell points cast in a day.

Or something like that.

At this point it's an exercise in creating an alternate Sorcery system in general, and later maybe we can figure out how to merge it with ADRP specifically. :D

Quote from: Nihilistic MindTo me, sorcery in the Amber Universe is VERY dependent upon which Shadow the player characters are in...

The effects are often dependent upon the flavor text description that players will give me.

Well, I would think it would be possible to create a +/- modifier for the magic level of a particular shadow, or a +/- for the proximity of the shadow to Amber/Courts, or perhaps a +/- for character familiarity with the shadow, or a +/- for the quality of flavor text used, or whatever.

So a point total could be calculated based on our earlier charts, then the GM would modify according to the totals listed above and that could determine a total point value.

Just me brainstorming aloud....

I'm starting to think up my own sorcery system, blatantly ripped off of Promised Sands... give me a while and I'll post what I have of it...

RPGPundit

The previously-given lists are pretty much what I would use.  Just establish a rule of thumb for the 'levels' of each.  There are many other game systems that use such things (Ars Magica, Mage, Buffy/Angel, etc) that can be drawn on for inspiration.  Just tune them for the level of power you want your game to have.  The 'points' themselves are just an act of book-keeping unrelated to character points.

In my mind, 'Focus' relates to using things that focus your ability, power, concentration or whatever to make the spells "easier".  Magic circles, following the rules of correspondence and simularity, that kind of thing.  It ties in somewhat with 'Casting Time' as that is sort of a mode of focus all of it's own.

Exactly how you work out a character's 'Power'... I'd guess it comes off Psyche partly as well as the local "energy" (mana or whatever) available to be used for your magic, with an extra bonus for tapping big sources of power like The Keep, or even the Pattern or Logus... which could add additional 'Focus' for using a True Power to back your workings.

I've always thought of the Sorcery power as somewhat independent of the local Shadow magic... a cross-Shadow magic toolbox for doing stuff that taps into the local energy without worrying about the local rules (how everyone does magic in that place).  It's adaptability is part of why it's so clunky; it's all the bloatware from having to be ready for any situation.

That's right: Sorcery is Windows For Magic! ;)

(Sorry to interrupt the discussion)

Coincidences, coincidences...

I've just posted my own alternate Sorcery system on my Amber / ReBMA website. Although designed for use with my variant "ReBMA" rules, it can
also be used with the original Amber rules.

But be warned : the system in question takes serious liberties with the original rules and with what could be considered "canon" by purists. It was developed in the context of my ongoing campaign, in which the Merlin saga never really occurred (and which thus tended to be quite "Sorcery-poor", at least at its beginnings).

The PDF includes personal interpretations & various modifications to the basic sorcery system, as well as a short section on "trump sorcery" (something which, again, comes from my own campaign and may not appeal to everyone's tastes.

I'd be glad to receive advice, constructive criticisms, suggestions, questions etc... :D but I'd like to avoid (if possible) being flamed down simply because the whole thing is "not canon" - but I guess this won't happen since we are talking ALTERNATE systems here anyway.:rolleyes:

So here is the link :

http://amberway.free.fr/REBMA.html (http://amberway.free.fr/REBMA.html)

Before you really deal with mechanics for Sorcery, you have to consider the view, expressed in the basic ADRPG book, that Sorcery ought to be a second-rate power.  If you want that to be the case, then Sorcery isn't really worth detailing unless you're running a low-power campaign.  Of course, low-power is my preferred way to go, but not all games I have run have gone that way.

Quote from: Lee ShortBefore you really deal with mechanics for Sorcery, you have to consider the view, expressed in the basic ADRPG book, that Sorcery ought to be a second-rate power.  If you want that to be the case, then Sorcery isn't really worth detailing unless you're running a low-power campaign.  Of course, low-power is my preferred way to go, but not all games I have run have gone that way.

Well, I completely agree on Sorcery being a "second rate" power as far as Amberites are concerned - and that's why I didn't feel the need to really bother with it during the first seasons of my campaign... but a campaign (especially a long running one, with many NPCs, shadows etc) may also integrate, say, NPC Logrus masters and Sorcerers (not to mention, gasp, player-characters), in which case a clarified /simplified system might be helpful.

I think one of the main "problems" one may have with the Sorcery rules as they stand is not their complexity per se : if Sorcery was the focus of the game, this level of complexity would (I think) be accepted as one of the key features of the game - but since Sorcery is more or less explicitly presented as a second-rate power, this level of complexity is often perceived as unneccesary complication - why bother with all these complications since it IS "a second-rate" power ?  Well, I guess the whole complexity issue was deliberately injected into the game as a manner of discouraging players from taking Sorcery and also to reflect the fact that Sorcery is supposed to be a complex art... but again, one might feel more comfortable with a simplified, streamlined or wholly alternate system than with the original ADRPG Sorcery rules.

That being said, I think that one of the greatest pitfalls of designing alternate Sorcery system is the risk of making Sorcery too attractive, too powerful etc. Pattern and Chaos should clearly remain the supreme forces in the game.

Quote from: olivier legrandI'd be glad to receive advice, constructive criticisms, suggestions, questions etc... :D but I'd like to avoid (if possible) being flamed down simply because the whole thing is "not canon" - but I guess this won't happen since we are talking ALTERNATE systems here anyway.:rolleyes:

I downloaded it and gave it a once-over. I'll try to post some thoughts soon.

Quote from: olivier legrandThat being said, I think that one of the greatest pitfalls of designing alternate Sorcery system is the risk of making Sorcery too attractive, too powerful etc. Pattern and Chaos should clearly remain the supreme forces in the game.

An interesting point. I once ran a "Power Words Only" game just to see how it would work out, and it was amazing what kinds of things players can attempt with only a short "spell list" of Power Words – and PWs aren't supposed to have any real value in the game! Certainly, if Sorcery looks too good then players will want to use it a lot more and that would alter somewhat the balance of the game. I'm not sure if it's good or bad, but it's not quite Amber....

Just my two cents.

I can definitely see nearly throwing out sorcery, conjuration, and power words entirely, in a "first series canon" game.

If you take Corwin's use of a spell in Lorraine as a shadow-specific usage that he was able to invoke because of his pre-existing knowledge of the place as a shadow of Avalon, and from that extrapolate that ALL sorcery is shadow-specific, then you don't need to charge points for it at all... it's no different than knowing engineering or science or any other shadow skill.

Quote from: OthaIf you take Corwin's use of a spell in Lorraine as a shadow-specific usage that he was able to invoke because of his pre-existing knowledge of the place as a shadow of Avalon, and from that extrapolate that ALL sorcery is shadow-specific, then you don't need to charge points for it at all... it's no different than knowing engineering or science or any other shadow skill.

This reminds me of a passage in the merlin series. Merlin has a spikard by then and has the urge to summon a spell through the spikard using a distant shadows magic, which in this case involved incantating the right words. (My book is currently unavailable, thus I can't quote it just yet, but it involved getting rid of giant lizards if I recall correctly).
The way it could be interpreted is that magic is so dependent upon the shadow's  laws of physics that an amberite must attune themselves to the local rules of magic... This could be done rather easily as the pattern grants them a certain understanding of how the local shadow functions. They could simply have a feel for it, given their psyche and rudimentary training in sorcery.

The lynchpin system that we know would be used as a fail-proof system (with the right lynchpin, even a magicless shadow would allow the spell to function properly), therefore should be a complex and hard to maintain system. On the other hand, having sorcery could allow for an innate ability to use the local shadow's magic, assuming the character is attuned to its forces (meaning has pattern or logrus or super high psyche) and a character who has spent the points would pick up the local magic system faster than one who hasn't.

This is kind of how I run sorcery, although without creative players sorcery tends to stay pretty blah.

That kind of assumes that sorcery works the same way across all of shadow, doesn't it?  At least on some kind of meta level?

It certainly assumes that there is a foundation of skills that is applicable to any local sorcery.  Which would be ... an interesting thought.

You could create a "Technology" power that works the same way, if you think that engineering-type thinking is applicable across different laws of physics.

Quote from: OthaThat kind of assumes that sorcery works the same way across all of shadow, doesn't it?  At least on some kind of meta level?

Not necessarily... Let's say the character is shadow walking, pursuing Mr.BadNPC... They end up in a magicless shadow for the final showdown.
If the character has visited the shadow before, he might be aware of the lack of magical energies or mana on this particular shadow.
If he hasn't, he certainly doesn't know and might try to cast the spell without the correct shadow lynchpin. What would happen then would be the same as attempting to fire standard gunpowder in amber. The ammo is spent but the result is nil.

If the player is clever enough, he'll delay Mr.BadNPC and make the subtle changes required, via the pattern, to change magic to impossible to improbable to possible, then cast the spell. In this case, the character never uses local shadow magic, but his own painstakingly stored spells. Also, note that the spell would still not necessarily function properly, depending on its complexity and effect.
I suppose a character with the Logrus could bring its sign to mind and link to a shadow with the proper magical energies and transfer them via a tendril to power up the spell?

In any case, what I'm trying to say is this: well roleplayed and creative solutions always pay off in this game, and sorcery should be no different.
I just don't think a "heart attack" spell will kill someone with "above human rank" in endurance.
Sorcery is a quick and useful way to make many shadowlings fear you... theatrics and all. It is not a definitive solution to killing an amberite...
Spells that would level a castle might (maybe) kill an amberite, if they haven't sensed powerful magic at work and left in a hurry.
Using Primal Chaos or destroying an entire shadow with Advanced Pattern, now that's the way to go... it's just not subtle :D

I'm not opposed to an alternative sorcery system, but if anything it should be simplified and freeform, letting the players enjoy it without plaguing the GM with modifiers and numbers too much.

Quote from: TonyLBIt certainly assumes that there is a foundation of skills that is applicable to any local sorcery.  Which would be ... an interesting thought.

You could create a "Technology" power that works the same way, if you think that engineering-type thinking is applicable across different laws of physics.

Perfectly valid idea. I've done that in con games.

Quote from: olivier legrandSo here is the link :

http://amberway.free.fr/REBMA.html (http://amberway.free.fr/REBMA.html)

Just a quick note :

Reading the latest posts on this thread and IRL feedback have given me several ideas I'd like to integrate in my alternate Sorcery rules (and also allowed me to notice a few glaring flaws here and there) so I've temporarily disabled the link to  my SORCERY PDF.I'll upload a revised, reworked (and probably simplified) version of the PDF in a few days (or perhaps weeks, depending on my local Shadow time flows...).

Quote from: olivier legrandI'll upload a revised, reworked (and probably simplified) version of the PDF in a few days (or perhaps weeks, depending on my local Shadow time flows...).

Very cool! Looking forward to it!

Quote from: Nihilistic MindVery cool! Looking forward to it!

I've just finished and uploaded it. The link is working again.

You can access the PDF from the site or directly from the link below :

http://amberway.free.fr/SORCERY.pdf (http://amberway.free.fr/SORCERY.pdf)

Consider it a semi-complete draft : it focuses on how Sorcery interacts with Shadows, Pattern, Logrus and Trump - but leaves the area of spell effects & spell design virtually untouched. For this, you'll have to wait a bit - I'm currently trying to put into finalized shape an old idea of mine, a spell system based on Power Words as its basic effects and using various "syntax" elements to boost these effects (spells as "power sentences", if you will).